An ambitious project (castle)

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Xevv
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An ambitious project (castle)

#1 Post by Xevv »

Very possibly too ambitious.

So to get this out of the way off the start- I'm in the very early planning stages so don't expect wip pictures anytime too soon.

Now that we are past that a little info on what I hope to accomplish with this. For as long as I've played this game (about 15 years now) I have only ever see a couple castles that to me really fit in terms of scale. Obviously being able to use the thing to play a game is a hindering factor for most of us as is space and many other things so this is understandable. But since I don't actually play very often anymore I figure I might as well make what will essentially be one hell of a display board for my force.

After a few minutes in sketchup I came up with this very baseline plan to build off of but I also quickly ran into what is the first of I'm sure many hurdles.

Image

A quick scale reference- That is an 8x4 slab its sitting on. To put it even simpler for those of you with kids that makes the interior courtyard area of that castle roughly the size of a twin bed.

And back to the issue. I have no idea on how to make a seamless curve that long for the outer wall. Carving it out of foam would be one giant pain in the ass and seems like alot of extra work since I have no plans on doing a brick texture anyway.

So hopefully someone has some ideas. Or if not maybe you guys got some good high elf architecture type pictures because I'm going to need plenty of them before this is over too ;)

Edit- A few criteria.

It doesnt need to be too mobile. Im thinking 2 pieces for the wall itself. Weight etc isnt important. I just need to potentially fit it out a door if I ever move.
It needs to be sturdy enough that itll hold up over time. But it will be mainly (ie 99%) a displace piece so I dont see it getting any hard use either.
Cost is always somewhat of a factor. Cheap will always win out over crazy expensive options.
Last edited by Xevv on Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#2 Post by Prince of Spires »

8X4 is massive. Good luck with that.

As for ideas: use magic. it's what all elves use when building exciting structures.

Otherwise, when the winds are low...:
How mobile does it need to be? And, by extent, how durable? Is it going to be something that is going to move around a lot or will it have its own fixed place? How important is weight?

Options I can think of:
- cast it in epoxy resin. So make a mold and cast it. It's going to be heavy though. But, it will be durable.
- make (or buy) your own bricks. http://www.hirstarts.com/ has some great sets for casting bricks. You can then use them to build the walls. Again, it will be heavy. And probably less durable then resin. It will also be a fair bit of work. But it will probably give the best end result.
- Not sure what the english term is, but translated from dutch it would be "pur-foam" (google translate gives "polyurethane foam":
Image
This stuff. Its an expanding foam used in construction. It's very durable, lightweight, so it checks those boxes. It is also difficult to work with. It would probably require some kind of mold and then you're done, you will probably need to finish it with some kind of outer layer.

Another thing you could consider it to build it in parts. That way, you retain a lot more flexibility to use it in game (if you would ever want to). You could then either slide pieces together, or if you want to remove the joints so it looks like a single piece use something like greenstuff to fill them up.

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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#3 Post by Xevv »

Updated the main post a little.

Hirstarts bricks are something Ive considered for years. A few things holding me back though. First being the time it would take to cast the needed amount of bricks. And the second big one being. Ive never really though of elf architecture as very bricked based personally.

The foam itself is interesting although I would need a mold as you said in which case I kind of already built the walls. (maybe not depending how sturdy the mold would have to be I have no idea, Ive never used the stuff before)

And yes the 8x4 is a little daunting. Just looking at it marked out and some general stuff there being built with cardboard and items I had laying around looks a little intimidating lol.

But in addition to it being something Ive wanted for a long time. My army is 500 models strong. They need a big house ;)
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#4 Post by aurynn »

I have a similar project in mind, but for W40K. However before giving some reasonable advice I need to know first how detailed your texture should be (bricks and stones) or you are ok with just printed texture?

Round walls complicate things too... are you adamant on that too?
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#5 Post by Xevv »

aurynn wrote:I have a similar project in mind, but for W40K. However before giving some reasonable advice I need to know first how detailed your texture should be (bricks and stones) or you are ok with just printed texture?

Honestly as far as the other wall itself goes my current plan is something much closer to smooth stone. Or possibly something similar to the castle on the inside cover of the 5th edition HE book. (Ill try to dig up a picture online or Ill go grab one myself if you dont have an old book laying around.)

Yep the round walls do make it a bit harder. And I am set on it. Gotta have round stuff for a HE castle!
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#6 Post by John Rainbow »

My vote would be to make some sort of frame (wire mesh?) structure and then go on top of that. I would even consider some sort of paper-mache type interior structure followed up by some plaster or other sculpt-able material on top. You need to keep it light!
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#7 Post by aurynn »

Okay, then I suggest the following - XPS polystyren (not the normal ball-one EPS). You can get it in thickness up to 160mm (depends on height of your walls), or you can cut shorter sections higher than that if you change the cut orientation. Its easy to work with (can be sanded, cut by hobbyknives, hot wires, wiresaws, you can create beautiful things with just hot needle in it), lightweight and fairly durable. I have trouble to translate the next thing... Acrylic Putty. It is applied to the polystyren where it hardens to stone-like hardness. Can be filed, can be sanded, can be mixed with sands to make texture, easily painted with acrylics and increases the overall toughness of the polystyrene. Just to get the correct one - should be the one used to seal gypsum walls, non-shrinkable. Ask in the store and they will advice you for sure. It is sticky so it takes some practice to work with, but its easy enough. be ready that you WILL have to sand it to have smooth walls so applying two layers might be good so you dont sand through the one layer.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#8 Post by John Rainbow »

Also Xevv I notice you're in PA. There are a few groups around that I know play pretty regularly. Where about are you?
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#9 Post by Xevv »

aurynn wrote:Okay, then I suggest the following - XPS polystyren (not the normal ball-one EPS). You can get it in thickness up to 160mm (depends on height of your walls), or you can cut shorter sections higher than that if you change the cut orientation. Its easy to work with (can be sanded, cut by hobbyknives, hot wires, wiresaws, you can create beautiful things with just hot needle in it), lightweight and fairly durable. I have trouble to translate the next thing... Acrylic Putty. It is applied to the polystyren where it hardens to stone-like hardness. Can be filed, can be sanded, can be mixed with sands to make texture, easily painted with acrylics and increases the overall toughness of the polystyrene. Just to get the correct one - should be the one used to seal gypsum walls, non-shrinkable. Ask in the store and they will advice you for sure. It is sticky so it takes some practice to work with, but its easy enough. be ready that you WILL have to sand it to have smooth walls so applying two layers might be good so you dont sand through the one layer.
The main reason Im hesitant to go the foam route is Im way too much of a perfectionist to think I would ever get a nice perfect/smooth curve of something this size. I did look up stuff that is either the same or very similar to the acrylic putty though and it looks pretty useful for other parts of this project where I will use foam. The stuff I found was a little expensive to double layer that wall too. Woulda been a couple hundred bucks no problem to do it all.

Not sure what I was really expecting anyone to come up with. Kinda had the admittedly irrational hope that someone would have a quick/easy solution so I could just move onto the other aspects of the project.
John Rainbow wrote:Also Xevv I notice you're in PA. There are a few groups around that I know play pretty regularly. Where about are you?
Im in northeast Pennsylvania.

Anyone know offhand how flexible something like this might be? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-1- ... n1Z1z0z6jh

Im thinking if I built a frame and used that as the actual wall it might be sturdy enough.

edit- I mean more as siding than load bearing obviously. I doubt its that strong. Id use some columns to support the actual ledge.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#10 Post by aurynn »

The putty should not be too expensive. In my country its something like 25 bucks per 5kg, which is plenty.

As for getting a nice, perfect, smooth curve, I would do the following. You just need to make yourself 2 tools - 2 pieces of hard material, curved to your inner wall diameter and one curved to your outer diameter (both large enough for the larges wall section you want to make. Glue a rough sandpaper to the appropriate side and use it to sand the foam to exactly what you want. That will give you the basic curve and can be used even to sand the putty (with care). After you finish each section, you put it where it belongs and correct any imperfections on place.

BTW I found a correct translation its "Acrylate Putty" not Acrylic. There are both and there is a difference. Acrylate putty being cheaper too.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

One thing you could have a think about is using something like plastercloth for the general outlines of the thing. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ovNbnjRUNQ around 1.15 min for an example.

For relatively fast and light I would then probably go for a wire mesh frame. This should give you a durable and still flexible frame. It's also relatively easy to shape. Overlay that with one or two layers of paper-mache. And then plaster over the top of that.

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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#12 Post by aurynn »

OOOO! That video is good and the mesh tip is really something to consider.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#13 Post by Motley »

I think these two playlists from terranscapes might help:

Practice castle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z89wG_9 ... ABPuSo3UXN

Finished Castle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKQfE2 ... 9JWhaMNmc4
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#14 Post by Xevv »

Motley wrote:I think these two playlists from terranscapes might help:

Practice castle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z89wG_9 ... ABPuSo3UXN

Finished Castle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKQfE2 ... 9JWhaMNmc4
Haven't finished watching yet but still alot of useful information in his videos for helms deep. Although the fact that he is currently scrapping the round walls due to difficulties isn't reassuring :/ Either way his videos will be a pretty useful resource so thank you.

Edit-Hurray he went back to a curved wall in a later video!

And plaster gauze is a good idea. Used that stuff back in elementary school and kinda forgot it existed.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#15 Post by Browncastle »

Hey Nice Project. I just have one input here, you could probly make a landscape Board first, as from Pictures highelf arctitecture is allways very well Integrated With its surroundings.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#16 Post by Xevv »

Browncastle wrote:Hey Nice Project. I just have one input here, you could probly make a landscape Board first, as from Pictures highelf arctitecture is allways very well Integrated With its surroundings.

Oh it will be built into the board itself for sure. MOST castles Ive found online tend to be built up against a mountain. Similar to this-

Image

Not sure I want to go that route or not. I do however want to something so that its not all on a perfectly flat surface though. For example in that picture while that is an amazing project it just looks a little bland to me with it being so flat/empty inside, (he did it intentionally for gaming purposes). My basic idea would look way worse currently since all it really has is the outter wall and one center level where he has a couple and the mountain. I gotta come up with some plans to make it look more cohesive in the courtyard area.

Over the next couple days Ill see if I can mock up some basic wall shaped stuff/etc on my board to just try and get a visual on scale and design ideas. (its gonna be hideous Im not planning to do anything more complicated that cardboard boxes that are the basic shape/size so fair warning ;) )
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#17 Post by John Rainbow »

Xevv wrote:For example in that picture while that is an amazing project it just looks a little bland to me with it being so flat/empty inside
That board is still pretty nuts!
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#18 Post by John Rainbow »

Also, I was thinking that to do a curved surface you could use plasticard. If you sketch a circle (or section of) on the board and then put up some posts as supports at various points along it you can then simply curve some plasticard and attach them to the posts and voila, curved wall. If you use some slightly thicker plasticard it should then be stiff enough to hold other structures depending on how many posts, etc there are.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#19 Post by Xevv »

John Rainbow wrote:
Xevv wrote:For example in that picture while that is an amazing project it just looks a little bland to me with it being so flat/empty inside
That board is still pretty nuts!

Oh its crazy good. A ton more pics here if youre interested- http://tidesofwargaming.blogspot.com/20 ... irith.html

Just a couple personal preferences that I dont like really. Main one being the towers dont seem high enough compared to the wall. But thats me. Im sure some people wont like my noticeably taller towers.

As far as the plasticard idea yes thats kinda what I was thinking except with some thin mdf that I linked a ways up. Its still a possibility. But after some hefty research the foam idea looks plenty viable. Even if I will require me to sink a decent bit of money into better foam tools. So far thats probably the leading option.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#20 Post by fransotto »

Xevv: Have you considered thin plywood which been heated up with steam/hot water? Super easy to bend. I guess you could just cut stripes as the hight of the walls. Get some boiling water and put the plywood on top. When its warm bend it inte the shape and secure it to the base. Use glue, clamps, screws to fix it.

Actually i think a project like this is better to use wood. For some cool round form for towers and stuff look at old furniture and cut the parts (legs) you like.

good luck with the project and dont forget to post frequently updates :)
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#21 Post by Prince of Spires »

Xevv wrote:Just a couple personal preferences that I dont like really. Main one being the towers dont seem high enough compared to the wall. But thats me. Im sure some people wont like my noticeably taller towers.
Castles come in so many different shapes and sizes that both options are 'real' enough. There are castles with low towers and castles with high ones. As long as it looks ok, then it's fine I would think.

The miniature minas tirith is pretty amazing. That's a lot of work that has gone into it. I think the reason to place it against a mountain backdrop is that it gives a natural border to the thing and it's an easy way to add some landscaping and bulk it out.

For a more real look I would personally add a bit of elevation here and there in the outer wall. It's very uncommon (in my experience) to have a large castle on a completely flat surface. So parts will be higher or use natural rock formations as a part of the bottom of the wall. It's also a way to create a few interesting points in an otherwise flat wall.

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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#22 Post by Xevv »

Ok tossed a little something together to just get a better feel for some scale. (you were all warned it was going to be ugly!)

A few things to note-

The wall height is what I was planning. As is the column for the tower. But the diameter on the tower is a little thinner than I will be going with.
The "tower" or in this case cans are both slightly off. The one on the left is the correct diameter but just a little too tall. The one on the right is both too wide and tall. (unless some of you think that looks better then maybe Ill go with it)

Since it might be hard to tell a few numbers-

The walls are 7 inches high.
The column is 1 foot high and is 2.5 inches diameter (ideally 3).
The can on the left is 5 inches diameter 3.5 high (ideal is 3)
The one on the right is 6 inches diamter and 4 inches high.

For scale we have a few seaguard,a tyrion, and a forge world fire dragon. (Left the cat out for this one since it was flimsy enough without seeing the furry bastard pretend to be godzilla)

Image

And the courtyard area

Image

As you can see there is alot of room to fill. Im going to have to come up with something alot better than just some filler buildings. Maybe some more towers/platforms with bridges between them or something along those lines.

If you look up to the sketchup all I had was a platform on the one side where the dragon could live. But right now even the dragon doesnt come close to filling up the space that platform would have available.
fransotto wrote:Xevv: Have you considered thin plywood which been heated up with steam/hot water? Super easy to bend. I guess you could just cut stripes as the hight of the walls. Get some boiling water and put the plywood on top. When its warm bend it inte the shape and secure it to the base. Use glue, clamps, screws to fix it.

Actually i think a project like this is better to use wood. For some cool round form for towers and stuff look at old furniture and cut the parts (legs) you like.

good luck with the project and dont forget to post frequently updates :)
Im with you on the flat issue. Im not sure what Im going to do yet but I will be avoiding the perfectly level table. Like the perfect uniform astroturf table many of us use/used it just bothers the hell outta me now. Didnt 15 years ago though. Guess Ive gotten a bit more picky.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#23 Post by Nicanor »

Any update to the castle project? I've always wanted to do HE buildings but my efforts usually end in me getting frustrated and the work in the trash. I'd love to see how this is going.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#24 Post by Xevv »

Its been moving extremely slowly. Ive pretty much settled on what to build it with and how after spending alot of time searching online for people who have done similar scale projects.(this actually took a rather long time)

Ive spent alot of time in sketchup trying to come up with a full plan I like but everytime I get to the "keep" area I dont like the way it looks. Even less so with the few hastily made mockups Ive tried laying out on the table just to actually see something.

I dont want to start building the whole thing until I have a full plan of what the finished project should ideally look like so its in limbo till I can come up with a keep that Im satisified with.

Lately Ive just been messing around with making a few filler type buildings to get a bit of practice with high elf architecture. Ill get you a few pics of some of that stuff though when I get a chance and put some a bit closer to finished status.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#25 Post by Nicanor »

Well, I know when I was attempting to build something like this, I went searching for screenshots of the HE buildings from warhammer online. I remember some of that stuff looking pretty good. Anyway, you might be able to put together a good idea from seeing that stuff.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#26 Post by Xevv »

Yes I stumbled upon some WAR stuff which was pretty helpful for the stand alone building type stuff. I assume there was at least 1 large elf city in the game ( I never actually played past beta and am regretting that now some) but I havent been able to find a good video or pics of a walk through or anything like that sadly.

This here is roughly the area on all my plans I seem to stall out at.

Image

Obviously I havent bothered to fill it with small buildings etc (theres enough room in that lower courtyard to do a double row of building and still have room for full units to pass between)

But the "keep" starts to take on a layered cake look very quickly if I say add another layer or even worse something like the thing I have detached in the back of the picture. It also gets very tall but Im not sure that can really be avoided at this scale. I think if hits 3 feet or so if I drop that placeholder on top.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#27 Post by Nicanor »

Well, I remember one of the HE keeps in the pvp areas had a main building with an upper open air room with a balcony on all sides and a central tower above that. however, the part that made it interesting was that a bridge connected the main part of the building to a satellite landing/tower outside of the main building. Some kind of main keep with a satellite tower/landing or two might be pretty good.

I'm not a huge fan of the cake layering if it is over-used. I think a tall large tower as your keep with some arched doors or windows with balconies along the outside would look good. Pointed arches seem to be pretty common in HE buildings. They kind of remind me of gothic cathedrals a little bit.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#28 Post by Xevv »

Yup gothic arches are a staple to HE stuff.

I do plan on doing several bridges/walkways they just arent shown in the sketchup tests.

I have considered some form of large balcony/open air part of the keep actually :)

I think part of the issue is just how big the whole thing is. That "small" tower to the side of the second level? That thing is 15 or 18 inches in diameter itself. Damn thing would function as a keep itself on any sane persons creation lol.

But I figure I can get away with one more level before the cake approach is too bad Ive always liked this diorama so I might just steal the entire 3 building part in the middle and use it for my keep.

Image

Only real thing is I guess I have to change the sides. Instead of making them curve out Ill have to show the start of an inward curve otherwise I think just flat tall walls like it would leave would look very odd.
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Re: An ambitious project (castle)

#29 Post by Nicanor »

Yeah, it does seem rather large but hey... dream big right? hehe.

As for walls, how about wider at the bottom, more narrow at the top. I want to say in two HE codex ago (dont butcher me for using the wrong plural for that word) there were some nice buildings in the photographs with some slanted walls and such. I wish I still had the codex.
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