Size Swordmasters Units
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Size Swordmasters Units
Hi all,
I have played warhammer in several editions, I'm using Warhammer Renaissance at this point and I'm planning to use either 9th age or The Warhammer Armies Project as well to play with my High Elves.
Question: do (in any edition you ar willing to talk about) larger units (say 10+) of Swordmasters viable?
In earlier editions they only had one attack, so ranks might help. In WHR the second rank fights, which is doublink the effect. In 8th, WAP and 9th age the second rank only has one attack, and the rules allow for smallish units. I tend to stick to them. Is there any reason not to?
In other words: do big units of SM's make sense?
I have played warhammer in several editions, I'm using Warhammer Renaissance at this point and I'm planning to use either 9th age or The Warhammer Armies Project as well to play with my High Elves.
Question: do (in any edition you ar willing to talk about) larger units (say 10+) of Swordmasters viable?
In earlier editions they only had one attack, so ranks might help. In WHR the second rank fights, which is doublink the effect. In 8th, WAP and 9th age the second rank only has one attack, and the rules allow for smallish units. I tend to stick to them. Is there any reason not to?
In other words: do big units of SM's make sense?
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
In 8th Ed High Elf infantry fights in 3 ranks (spearmen in 4) - plus one if the frontage is 10 or more (a horde).
The first rank of the Swordmasters uses their two attacks, the rear rank are supporting and can use only one of the two attacks.
Therefore it makes sense to have 3 ranks and at least 5 frontage, often 6 or even 7 if you have enough points. More than 7 and you waste attacks against other 5-wide infantry or cavalry.
The first rank of the Swordmasters uses their two attacks, the rear rank are supporting and can use only one of the two attacks.
Therefore it makes sense to have 3 ranks and at least 5 frontage, often 6 or even 7 if you have enough points. More than 7 and you waste attacks against other 5-wide infantry or cavalry.
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
They can make a bit of sense. About as much as SM in general at least. The problem with SM is that in most cases WL are better. The extra S compensates for the extra attack, especially with larger units. After all, if you have 5 models then the SM get twice the attacks of the WL. if you have 15 (in 3X5), then the SM only have 33% more attacks.
That being said, larger units of SM have some advantages over smaller units. SM in general are vulnerable to shooting. And having more bodies means you're more likely to get into combat with a decent sized unit. Also, a larger unit means that you can buff them more easily. For instance, give them the ironcurse icon and you have a 6+ ward against regular shooting and template shooting, which you can buff with high magic. This makes them pretty decent at resisting shooting. And they do get lots of attacks. 21 of them in 3X7 put out 28 attacks. Which is impressive for any unit.
My thoughts are that if you're going for the toughest tournament list out there, then there are better choices than a large unit of SM. But in a casual game they will do fine.
Rod
That being said, larger units of SM have some advantages over smaller units. SM in general are vulnerable to shooting. And having more bodies means you're more likely to get into combat with a decent sized unit. Also, a larger unit means that you can buff them more easily. For instance, give them the ironcurse icon and you have a 6+ ward against regular shooting and template shooting, which you can buff with high magic. This makes them pretty decent at resisting shooting. And they do get lots of attacks. 21 of them in 3X7 put out 28 attacks. Which is impressive for any unit.
My thoughts are that if you're going for the toughest tournament list out there, then there are better choices than a large unit of SM. But in a casual game they will do fine.
Rod
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Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
I can only speak for 8th but...
Archmage, Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury
19 Swordmasters, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
BSB, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-heroes, Merwyrm Shield, Ironcurse Icon.
As Rod touches on, Shield of Saphery is very helpful for this unit. If you take no further mages, every spell you cast buffs their Ward save (stacking on top of Ironcurse and Deflect Shots). Adding World Dragon creates a very strong unit which will destroy most things and lose to far fewer. The foot BSB is optional but works well with the unit. You can run the same unit with Lions instead and it remains pretty strong. Those can manage fairly well without Shield of Saphery though, so I'd tend to favour them in different builds. There's a good case that Phoenix Guard are even better with Shield of Saphery, though they'll take Razor Standard instead of World Dragon and the latter is always very tasty.
This. Small Swordmaster units make sense in true MSU lists but otherwise they need the multiplier effects HE's thrive on in 8th.Prince of Spires wrote:That being said, larger units of SM have some advantages over smaller units.
This. I had some success with the following unit:MasterOfNone wrote:Therefore it makes sense to have 3 ranks and at least 5 frontage, often 6 or even 7
Archmage, Lvl 4, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury
19 Swordmasters, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
BSB, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-heroes, Merwyrm Shield, Ironcurse Icon.
As Rod touches on, Shield of Saphery is very helpful for this unit. If you take no further mages, every spell you cast buffs their Ward save (stacking on top of Ironcurse and Deflect Shots). Adding World Dragon creates a very strong unit which will destroy most things and lose to far fewer. The foot BSB is optional but works well with the unit. You can run the same unit with Lions instead and it remains pretty strong. Those can manage fairly well without Shield of Saphery though, so I'd tend to favour them in different builds. There's a good case that Phoenix Guard are even better with Shield of Saphery, though they'll take Razor Standard instead of World Dragon and the latter is always very tasty.
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
Thanks for your insights.
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
Having lived through the latest editions;Aerendar Valandil wrote:Hi all,
I have played warhammer in several editions, I'm using Warhammer Renaissance at this point and I'm planning to use either 9th age or The Warhammer Armies Project as well to play with my High Elves.
Question: do (in any edition you ar willing to talk about) larger units (say 10+) of Swordmasters viable?
In earlier editions they only had one attack, so ranks might help. In WHR the second rank fights, which is doublink the effect. In 8th, WAP and 9th age the second rank only has one attack, and the rules allow for smallish units. I tend to stick to them. Is there any reason not to?
In other words: do big units of SM's make sense?
6th Edition; a medium-large size unit is prefectly fine 12-24. Just beware counter charges...
7th Edition; I had put them at low numbers (7, no banner, 14 with banner), 7 wide to efficiently make use of the double attacks
8th Edition; re-rolls, fighting in an extra rank and still ASF means that any size pretty much does, as pointed out above.
But as PoS points out, having them survive to fight another turn is the biggest challenge .
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Re: Size Swordmasters Units
I think there's 3 big differences between 6&7th edition and 8th edition.
In 6&7, the unit who got the charge went first and there was no step-up. This means that if you played SM in 7th, they attacked first. And with 15 attacks from the front rank they could take out 5 models and not get any attacks in return. In 8th edition, they go in Initiative order and there is step up, which means that other units get to strike back. And then they are suddenly only T3 with a 5+ armour save. So they will take a lot more damage in return.
And then there is also steadfast. Which means that if you only have 1 rank of models then you have little hope of actually making a larger run. A unit of 30 goblins will not be impressed if they lose 15 of their number if there is only one rank attacking them.
This is the reason that many units in 8th edition have gotten bigger, unless it's the very high damage dealing units (like monstrous cavalry), which still deal so much damage that they can tear through those 30-40 goblins in one or two rounds of combat.
Rod
In 6&7, the unit who got the charge went first and there was no step-up. This means that if you played SM in 7th, they attacked first. And with 15 attacks from the front rank they could take out 5 models and not get any attacks in return. In 8th edition, they go in Initiative order and there is step up, which means that other units get to strike back. And then they are suddenly only T3 with a 5+ armour save. So they will take a lot more damage in return.
And then there is also steadfast. Which means that if you only have 1 rank of models then you have little hope of actually making a larger run. A unit of 30 goblins will not be impressed if they lose 15 of their number if there is only one rank attacking them.
This is the reason that many units in 8th edition have gotten bigger, unless it's the very high damage dealing units (like monstrous cavalry), which still deal so much damage that they can tear through those 30-40 goblins in one or two rounds of combat.
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
PS: Bring cookies!
Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91
Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Re: Size Swordmasters Units
We don't actually have cannon fodder, but in a multi army game, stick them behind one such allied unit along the likely avenue to advance by the opposition.
Anything that breaks through the screening unit is likely to regret it.
Anything that breaks through the screening unit is likely to regret it.
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