9th Edition rumours

[RE.Lee]

However it does underline that our current collections will not become obsolete.

[Delaqure]

Hmmm.... It's beginning to sound a little too generic for me. What I loved about the warhammer universe was the variety in backgrounds and rules for the various races. I might be able to use my models but will my models all have the unique and different feeling that they have now? Sigh... I guess we'll see. Hate to say it but I'm not excited.

[aquietfrog]

A FLGS claimed that a GW representative visited them and told them thus:

Best thing about the new WARHAMMER FANTASY! The rules are FREE! They are even asking if any kind soul would like to translate it to Tagalog and they will publish it on their website.

Games will be scaleable - meaning skirmish to grand battles are possible
Backwards compatible -Old models are completely compatible with the new rules
Both round and square bases are perfectly legal
the Rich LORE behind it.
GW still has the best tech when it comes to making plastic Fantasy models.

They also had a photo taken with the said GW representative. Dunno how to take that. It could easily have been any Caucasian guy sitting with a bunch of asians around boxes of warhammer stuff.

[Kimahri]

A FLGS claimed that a GW representative visited them and told them thus:

Best thing about the new WARHAMMER FANTASY! The rules are FREE! They are even asking if any kind soul would like to translate it to Tagalog and they will publish it on their website.

Games will be scaleable - meaning skirmish to grand battles are possible
Backwards compatible -Old models are completely compatible with the new rules
Both round and square bases are perfectly legal
the Rich LORE behind it.
GW still has the best tech when it comes to making plastic Fantasy models.

They also had a photo taken with the said GW representative. Dunno how to take that. It could easily have been any Caucasian guy sitting with a bunch of asians around boxes of warhammer stuff.

GW giving something away for free? I've officially heard it all now.

[Eirik]

GW giving something away for free? I've officially heard it all now.

Free when you buy a finecast model

[Ramesesis]

Yeah, the rules comes for free as you buy a 100 euro Battleforce.

And if they give it free, it will tur out to be a basis rules free so when you wanna start playing with warmachines, monsters and magic you need to buy a studier expensive expansion.

[Ramesesis]

And why have too ask for more info? Rubbish talk. They could simply post all important info. And Richard background my ass. They had a Richard background. It takes a short while to write a hundred pages, it takes decades to build a tradition!
You cannot make any shortcuts.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

After BOLS (in reply to the previous note about Age of Sigmar):

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/ ... is-it.html

Some notes on this:

1) This reads like a message sent from GW to retailers to get them preliminary info on the upcoming product to pass onto customers.

2) Note the emphasis on NEW players STARTING fantasy miniature collecting…

3) “the dwindling number of Fantasy players, but for EVERYONE” That’s a bit of an unvarnished take on where things stand with WFB.

4) If a model is currently for sale by GW it will be usable in some way.

This is one of the most brutally honest descriptions of WFB and what GW hopes to achieve with Age of Sigmar. It sounds more like acomplete reboot with the intention of bringing in a whole new wave of brand new players and sweep the existing WFB players along with the tide doesn’t it? It certainly doesn’t have the sound of an incremental releases and ruleset compared to WFB 8th.

[Ramesesis]

Usable in some way can mean anything, really. Such as fancy terrain pieces.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Yep, or like the start of 6th when you could use all the special character models as generic heros, or your empire war wagon crew as unit champions. Or you hero on a pegasus as a counts as eagle (or unicorn as a horse).

[Prince of Spires]

Of course, we don't actually know what age of sigmar really is. As far as I can tell, it could as easily be something like heroquest as it could be a complete WH game.

In general, the intention sounds good at least. And apart from the round bases (which I'm a bit ambivalent about), there isn't anything I've read so far that I dislike.

Rumors so far:
- new rules: we'll see what they come up with. But having rules for skirmish games sounds great. I'd buy those anytime.
- round bases: meh. We'll see how it works out. Could be good, could be terrible.
- new fluff: the 'real' fluff plays only a minor role for me anyway. There will be some elves, some generic humans and some bad guys running around. I'll just transport my own fluff into whatever new world they come up with. But revitalizing the fluff that has been stagnant for 20 years is not a bad thing
- refreshing the game to get more / new players into the game: great. sounds like they're trying to get me more potential opponents, something I can only encourage.
- free rules (even if they're only the basic rules): great! Not sure how anyone can complain about that, even if you still need to buy something.

All in all, it sounds like GW realized that something needed to be done for WH. Sales and interest were declining. They had the option of either trying to get as much money out of it as possible and then let it die or be bold and reboot the whole thing, trying to get the growth back in. Yes, some long time players will not like it and will quit playing WH. But someone who has been playing for 20+ years and has spent very little money on GW over the past 3-5 years is not the target customer. Someone who doesn't spend money on your product is not a customer. Someone who is willing to buy a whole bunch of models and fork over lots of money is.

Rod

[Shannar, Sealord]

All in all, it sounds like GW realized that something needed to be done for WH. Sales and interest were declining. They had the option of either trying to get as much money out of it as possible and then let it die or be bold and reboot the whole thing, trying to get the growth back in. Yes, some long time players will not like it and will quit playing WH. But someone who has been playing for 20+ years and has spent very little money on GW over the past 3-5 years is not the target customer. Someone who doesn't spend money on your product is not a customer. Someone who is willing to buy a whole bunch of models and fork over lots of money is.

The thing is, I still spend a fair bit on WH and other GW games. But I get all of it 2nd hand. Price is part of that, but the fact of the matter is I actually prefer a lot of the old stuff (or other manufacturers) when it comes to your average human/elf/orc. And while I like what they tried to do 6th-8th with the rules, at the same time they took a lot of the fun out of it. They went to grimdark/serious with the setting. They acted like they could actually balance the rules, and then did a poor job of it. They stopped with the historical/culture references. Mostly I think they failed to understand what made the game so special. Each new edition has brought some really good changes. It's also taken the game a little farther from what it was. Maybe 9th takes us back to the days of 3rd where it was just a game to play to have a good time. If it does 90% of the internet is going to hate it.

[Ramesesis]

A free list of basis rules is just a trick. You will hardly be satisfied by them and need to buy full rules.

But if... IF GW do release the whole rules for free then I might be interested.

Background IS important. Since you have your own background, I cannot interact with you in meaningful way. We cannot weave the tapestry of stories together but can only ever discuss things like tactics and list Composition. We cannot go into the deep and emotional side of the Warhammer world. We cannot share stories and be part of the big story. I want restrictions via the common accepted background. That is the frame for interaction between our characters.

[Velmates]

Well, I have been in the hobby for 10 years and really like the fluff and rich background of the "old" Warhammer. But then again, as the army books of the 8th edition were published, I didn't even bother to read the texts. I knew the story of Athel Loren, of Ulthuan, of the Ogre Kingdoms. Those minor changes and new units were interesting but fit more or less well in the already established history of things.

Over the last few weeks, my opinion on the "new" Warhammer changed from "meh - round bases" to "wow - a completely new story and peoples ans miniatures". I remembered how excited I have been back then, when I got my first miniature and rulebook. I read everything I got in my hands, bought nearly every armybook and delved into this fantastic stories. You can argue, the stories were better or more fun back then or I was much younger and more easy to entertain but I would very much enjoy feeling these times again.

Money and my collection of miniatures apart, I am looking forward to this new edition. I have always loved and will always love new models and new stories. I won't give up my High Elves but why should I? I have a whole army, there are tons of alternative suppliers of models and square bases for the new GW ones. I have the 8th rulebook and I am sure, there will be communities on the net that will support the old edition. I will be able to use my incestments and enjoy games with my friends for years to come.

As for the new edition: I clean my shelves and start a new system. I will be happy with it.

(Of course I am not that naive. The above text describes the optimal case and GW not screwing this thing up. Something that could easiliy happen by bad stories, a stupid setting, a great increase in price, etc. etc. But I want to be an optimist. So, the whining may be done in 3 to 4 weeks, when we see, what the new edition will look like.)

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I swear there was a sentence I read somewhere about "good intentions"

I find it funny when people say they are not interested in background for warhammer. Isn't background that made them choose particular army book to play with? It might be the look of models too but, surprise, surprise, it is also a reflection of the story line.

We haven't heard much about factions yet. And we definitely haven't heard about the Elves in that new world.

[Kimahri]

A free list of basis rules is just a trick. You will hardly be satisfied by them and need to buy full rules.

But if... IF GW do release the whole rules for free then I might be interested.

Background IS important. Since you have your own background, I cannot interact with you in meaningful way. We cannot weave the tapestry of stories together but can only ever discuss things like tactics and list Composition. We cannot go into the deep and emotional side of the Warhammer world. We cannot share stories and be part of the big story. I want restrictions via the common accepted background. That is the frame for interaction between our characters.

When D&D 5th edition dropped they provided the basic rules for free, in the starter box and online. Granted those rules were very basic indeed. But that move got me back into D&D again. The rules they provided allowed you to play the generic hero and engage in some first level battles. By no means was it enough to get a character past level 3 or 4, but it got them started. This was more than enough to get my group going again. Since then I've bought the three main books (DM guide, players handbook, and the monster manual) and have a weekly campaign going. Sure there were fans of D&D that jumped to Pathfinder or just continue to play 3.5, but what they did for 5th brought me back, and I that is what GW is trying to do with AoS.

The rules will be enough to get your feet wet, but to play the large scale game you'll need the full set of rules.

[Kimahri]

Some updates from Faeit, Im excited and hope this is true.

via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.

I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.

As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.

Anyway, on with what I know:

Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.

Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.

Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.

Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.

Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.

One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)

The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.

A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.

GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.

On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.

Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.

On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.

From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.

I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.

It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.

It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.

Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.

I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.

Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!

[Shannar, Sealord]

There are he/her 1st/3rd person problems throughout this.

I'd take these with a huge grain of salt.

There is good news though, if people are excited about the formation rules that game already exists. It's called Warhammer (3rd ed and before).

[Kimahri]

There are he/her 1st/3rd person problems throughout this.

I'd take these with a huge grain of salt.

There is good news though, if people are excited about the formation rules that game already exists. It's called Warhammer (3rd ed and before).

Naftka commented on that comment and said he changed those to protect his source. He seems to think they are pretty solid

[Eirik]

When D&D 5th edition dropped they provided the basic rules for free, in the starter box and online. Granted those rules were very basic indeed. But that move got me back into D&D again. The rules they provided allowed you to play the generic hero and engage in some first level battles. The rules will be enough to get your feet wet, but to play the large scale game you'll need the full set of rules.

It's going to take more than a set of basic rules

Dungeons and Dragons was in almost the same situation as WHFB is in now
* An audience of extremely reactionary and picky fans
* Old fans are the main source of sales
* Extremely unforgiving niche market
* High production costs, one bust could mean bankruptcy
* Numerous online communities arguing about best editions
* Players desperately want to be involved in the process
* Sales stagnating for several editions

Wizards responded by basically polling the fans at every step. They were completely open about their goals, and constantly rebuilding their product to appeal to their audience. They were in continuous contact with myriad online communities run by the people who love, play and buy their game. Basic rules was less than 1% of this. The result was 5e, lauded by fans and critics, and a success financially.

When people complain that GW hates their fans I don't think they're just being whiny forum nerds. GW treats us slightly better than a Telecom or an Airline would. If they want our money, they should look to examples like WotC, Fantasy Flight, or Valve.

It seems like they're afraid of us though, like they need to hide. Everyone just waits terrified in a standoff, we're afraid they'll ruin our favorite army or break the rules, they're afraid that we won't like the next product. They're so afraid, they won't even ask us before they make it.

[Kimahri]

Very true. WotC did a much better job with 5th than GW is doing with AoS. I know not everyone will like the new game or the fluff behind it, but im just hoping its good enough to keep a solid base, maybe even bring in new players (myself included).

I know im going to pick up the starter and give it a try. And if it sucks, well ill always have the models for my D&D games.

[Grenic]

The possibility of new rules that allow for more flexible formations is the big draw for me.

As a result, I'm looking forward to 9th, whatever it ultimately is and will be buying a complete copy of the equivalent to the BRB rule set.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Seems like not many people know that forum is up and running again. Maybe a message to the users could help here? It's pretty quite now.

Anyway, here is a link to pages from WD describing the new things to come. No details on the game itself but it says that the conflicts, even during ET are going to look like skirmishes in comparison to what new era is going to bring. Is that an announcement of the AoS as a system for big scale battles and not as skirmishing system?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/ ... tails.html

[Shannar, Sealord]

Is that an announcement of the AoS as a system for big scale battles and not as skirmishing system?

I wouldn't read that much into it. I've never seem GW leaving subtle hints before, so I wouldn't expect them to start now. That entire paragraph is hyperbole of hyperbole anyway.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Maybe, but it is the most solid information we have received so far.

[Teledor]

Age of Sigmar Contents
1x Empire General on Griffin
5x Knights of Sigmar
10x State Troops with Spears
10x State Troops with Muskets

1x Lord of Khorne on Daemonsteed
5x Chaos Knights
10x Chaos Warriors

-No small rulebook
-Full rules for all models
-Small intro of the fluff (Humans only)
-5 Scenarios to introduce players
-Text is written very childfriendly

Via Bell of Lost Souls - http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/ ... tents.html

No rules yet though. So still holding out hope that the box is a simplified game. Also no mention of base shapes oddly enough.

[Shannar, Sealord]

um, I don't know that the guy who submitted to that as ever been right about anything. He's been wrong about a lot though.

[Eirik]

There are no solid rumors

[Shannar, Sealord]

There are no solid rumors

Yes, but some are more unsolid than others. The same source said AoS was a board game 2 weeks ago, and has been busily getting things wrong since the HE release (if not before). So he's apparently just guessing, and not well. Yet everything he writes still gets reposted all over the place.

[Ricold]

Seems like not many people know that forum is up and running again. Maybe a message to the users could help here? It's pretty quite now.

If that's aimed my direction, we can't do a mass email on the current host or without a domain.

The old ulthuan.net/forum redirects to the temporary site. I'll make sure the root of the domain does too, our root site is broken