Looking to start High Elves

[Immersturm]

Hey folks.

I am a long time 40k veteran and cheesemaster, and now I am looking to start Fantasy. Oddly enough, it is HE (and another army) that caught my fancy. I am a particular big fan of the White Lion aesthetic.

Now, before I move on I want you to understand something. I am a Space Wolves player through and through, and thus not a big fan of elves in any shape or form. You can see how much White Lions made an impact on me that I am not only considering to start a gaming system I though I would never ever play, but I am also considering to play elves.
Well, it is not that I dislike elves. It is much like the Asian culture. I do not get it and thus I am not very invested into it.

But who is to say that I can not get into it

Anyway. I am not looking for advice on what to get and the usual stuff. I know what my 2k-2.5k list will look like.
What I am more looking for is of aesthetic and cultural nature.
As mentioned, I like the WL looks, so I wanted to make my army look like woodsmen. Pelts, hunting bows and spears and I would be looking into red, green, yellow and brown tones when painting.
Any other hints you could give me here? (No, I would not like to play Wood Elves, HE will do just fine)
Maybe depict them as a hunting party far on the border of Ulthuan or even outside, roaming the forests, mountains and seas to hunt down Chaos and Undeath, where ever it may lurk.

Since I am a SW player and a massive fan of nordic/germanic mythology and folklore, I wouldn't mind giving my HE that touch. I value heroism, individuality and strength. I do not see it into HE, not as much as I would like anyway. Since some of you know your HE better than I do, maybe you know some examples that could steer me into the right direction?
As of right now, I do not see a few Elves doing a glorious charge into combat against a numerically superior foe, I am used to the 40k Eldar stereotype of running away an hiding like a coward. I would like to break that thinking in my head. So maybe you have some interesting literature or some read for me to look into.

Lastly, the other reason why I am not fond of elves is.. well, elven nature. That aloof and arrogant nature and seeing other as inferior filth. I am sure it is yet another stereotype speaking, so again, maybe some of you have examples of Elves that are actually enjoying the simpler things in life, having a feast or just a stroll outside.

Oh, and inb4 'play WoC': yeah, that is the second option. Non-chaos northmen depicted as a 'mortals' WoC army. However, I already have a band of vikings and I wanted to use this opportunity to get a new perspective towards elves.

Thanks for any input

[Honourblade]

Welcome to the forums, and good choice of army!

I am a long time 40k veteran and cheesemaster, and now I am looking to start Fantasy. Oddly enough, it is HE (and another army) that caught my fancy. I am a particular big fan of the White Lion aesthetic.

They are one of the better units in the game and top 3 in the High Elves hosts, a Chracian army is always a awesome sight, especially if you get uber conversion skills (And lots of money) to make all your knights riding Lions!

Now, before I move on I want you to understand something. I am a Space Wolves player through and through, and thus not a big fan of elves in any shape or form. You can see how much White Lions made an impact on me that I am not only considering to start a gaming system I though I would never ever play, but I am also considering to play elves.
Well, it is not that I dislike elves. It is much like the Asian culture. I do not get it and thus I am not very invested into it.

I always said never to Fantasy, I played one game and sold most of my 40K the next month, I think it is funner and more enjoyable, as well as more competitive and tactics based.

Anyway. I am not looking for advice on what to get and the usual stuff. I know what my 2k-2.5k list will look like.
What I am more looking for is of aesthetic and cultural nature.
As mentioned, I like the WL looks, so I wanted to make my army look like woodsmen. Pelts, hunting bows and spears and I would be looking into red, green, yellow and brown tones when painting.
Any other hints you could give me here? (No, I would not like to play Wood Elves, HE will do just fine)
Maybe depict them as a hunting party far on the border of Ulthuan or even outside, roaming the forests, mountains and seas to hunt down Chaos and Undeath, where ever it may lurk.

Don't get over confident in your list, especially as you are just starting out, unless your playing for fun with no interest in winning (Very un-White Lion-y) and chances are you will get flattened as your a 40k player, this is very different, you cant beat a big unit or bestie by aiming evrything at it, you could have a horde of White Lions (40+) and I will kill them to a man in 1 magic phase, or ever on the charge with my standard units, plus I promise you your idea of what you want now will change after a few games.

As for colours if you want fluffy look at the Army Book (Do not call it a bloody Codex) and look at Chracian armies, lots of Red, and White Lion Heads on shields.

And not sure if you know but you can now take any unit from any of the Elf Books almost and make it into one legal army, I don't do it, but you can take WE Archers and say they are elite hunters, and that kinda stuff.

Since I am a SW player and a massive fan of nordic/germanic mythology and folklore, I wouldn't mind giving my HE that touch. I value heroism, individuality and strength. I do not see it into HE, not as much as I would like anyway. Since some of you know your HE better than I do, maybe you know some examples that could steer me into the right direction?
As of right now, I do not see a few Elves doing a glorious charge into combat against a numerically superior foe, I am used to the 40k Eldar stereotype of running away an hiding like a coward. I would like to break that thinking in my head. So maybe you have some interesting literature or some read for me to look into.

You clearly need to read a HE novel.. The High Elves have been sacrificing themselves for the worlds survival since day 1, read the latest End Time book: Khaine and read about Korhil, read the Caledor and Alith Anar books, they show the same as SW if not more in most cases, keep in mind I used to play SW too.. And it is alwasy a few Elves charging a massive unit, they are normally out number in the game 5-10 to 1, and in the fluff it is many times that, in fact, in the End Times, 3 Elf Heroes, a small group of Cavalry, and a small Phalax of Spearmen charge into a horde of Undead, Vampires and Necromancers, 1 Elf is usally the equal to 10 Human Warriors, and that is if it is a Civilian Elf.. The Elite ones, like Swordmaster, Deflect bullets with their swords and will calve through scores if not hundreds of humans.

So re cap, the books i recommend for the best read and the ones that got me hooked on High Elves are the following:

Caledor
Alith Anar
End Times: Khaine
The Omnibus
Defenders of Ulthuan

Lastly, the other reason why I am not fond of elves is.. well, elven nature. That aloof and arrogant nature and seeing other as inferior filth. I am sure it is yet another stereotype speaking, so again, maybe some of you have examples of Elves that are actually enjoying the simpler things in life, having a feast or just a stroll outside.

I have no idea what you a reading to give you that idea.. Most Elves are arrogant, and think they are better, but the inferior is not filth, maybe for the Dark Elves, but High Elves work with Humans, Dwarfs, brettonians, sometiems as brothers and equals, and they dont have the ability to take a stroll or have time to enjoy the small things in life, they used to, but now they must defend themselves for daemons, Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves (Untill recently) and spend the whole lives dying to protect a world full of people who think they are selfish.. You should stop comparing to Eldar and Dark Eldar in 40k, as Elves tend to help when they can, and offer as much help as possible when they can. Some Elven princess even going whole sale to war along side Humans as friends.

Also.. You do know that Space Marines and the Imperium is like that as well right? Ask a Space Wolf what he thinks of a Tau, or an Ork or even an Eldar, 2 of which are his betters in everything but muscle.. The Elves dont destroy entire continents because someone says they are wrong, they know they are superior because they are, and they use the superior abilities they have to protect the world as much as they can. Your wolves are Arrogant and think they are better then everyone that thinks otherwise, look at the Grey Knights, their superiors, how do they treat them when they dont agree? Or humans that think the Emperor can suck a rock? Yeah..

Oh, and inb4 'play WoC': yeah, that is the second option. Non-chaos northmen depicted as a 'mortals' WoC army. However, I already have a band of vikings and I wanted to use this opportunity to get a new perspective towards elves.

Going to armies with the same feel is kidna wrong, you should always try and branch out, cause WoC are almost identical to SW, High Elves are very different.

I would recommend buying the Battalion (8 Silver Helms, 16 Archers, 16 Spearmen, and a chariot, this is a good base, all you need is to buy a hero (MAge or Nobel at first) and play a few small games, as you must have 25% Core, I pesonally run jsut Sivler Helms in core and sometimes a unit or 2 of 5 Reavers, but that is becasue I prefer it and it works for me, others, most of the people I play with says cav in core is stupid and spearmen and Archers are better, that is till my *dumd* core choice slaughters something big and important, so good luck! Read those books though, it will give you insight and they are great books, and becareful about what you say about Elves, some of the *Loremasters* I have meet take that stuff like a bible and will lynch you, I just hate it when people say stuff without any knowledge, anyways, you will enjoy Elves, just be prepared to loose alot, it takes a bit to learn the tactics, took me about 3 months to get my first non-given win, and it was purely my tactics that one, that and a brutal magic phase, haha!

P.S. Sorry fro seeming like an ass, bad day, boss is being a dick..

[Immersturm]

No worries about my list. While it may not be bleeding edge competitive, it does look decent enough. I have had a few HE players in my community help me. It is basically L4, BSB noble on mount, Silver Helms, Reavers, Frostheart Phoenix, White Lions, Bolt Throwers, possibly a block of Spearmen and either Archers or Sisters.
And I am sure that I will not last long against you, seeing as I am a new player to Fantasy. But neither will you in 40k against me, so I guess that argument is sort of pointless

But you have exactly hit the nail on the head with this phrase: "The High Elves have been sacrificing themselves for the worlds survival since day 1, read the latest End Time book: Khaine and read about Korhil, read the Caledor and Alith Anar books, they show the same as SW if not more in most cases, keep in mind I used to play SW too.. And it is alwasy a few Elves charging a massive unit, they are normally out number in the game 5-10 to 1, and in the fluff it is many times that, in fact, in the End Times, 3 Elf Heroes, a small group of Cavalry, and a small Phalax of Spearmen charge into a horde of Undead, Vampires and Necromancers, 1 Elf is usally the equal to 10 Human Warriors, and that is if it is a Civilian Elf.. The Elite ones, like Swordmaster, Deflect bullets with their swords and will calve through scores if not hundreds of humans."

I am well aware of that and that is the reason I get a bitter taste in my mouth when I think about them. They are simply flawless. A swordsman cleaving his way through hundreds of humans while clearly being superior is a clear sign of being a Mary Sue. You can admire perfection, but you can not love it. I can never image having an Elf as a buddy, as opposed to a northman, dwarf or human. I can relate to them. I can not relate to perfection. If they would be humble about it, it would be half as bad, but in many cases they see it as the natural way of things, you know, being perfect.
They are always depicted the last line of defense, a shining force to stand against the darkness. It is all impressive but when a shiny warhost is being shiny, surrounded by loyal companions on the fields of victory, but that is not my idea of glory.

Anyway, I will have a look at the novels you mentioned, maybe they will help

[Aicanor]

Elves are definitely not that perfect. They just tend to be more extreme in whatever they do. But if you want to get a feel of what elves can be like, I highly recommend Headshot's stories in Story Telling forum, starting here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36889.

[Honourblade]

I am well aware of that and that is the reason I get a bitter taste in my mouth when I think about them. They are simply flawless. A swordsman cleaving his way through hundreds of humans while clearly being superior is a clear sign of being a Mary Sue. You can admire perfection, but you can not love it. I can never image having an Elf as a buddy, as opposed to a northman, dwarf or human. I can relate to them. I can not relate to perfection. If they would be humble about it, it would be half as bad, but in many cases they see it as the natural way of things, you know, being perfect.
They are always depicted the last line of defense, a shining force to stand against the darkness. It is all impressive but when a shiny warhost is being shiny, surrounded by loyal companions on the fields of victory, but that is not my idea of glory.

They have to be.. They train for hundreds of years.. All to defend the world knowing you are going to die.. Why not take out 100 guys in one charge.. The Empire send 1000 Swordmasters in a charge to kill the same, High Elves don't have that many men, they have like 100 if lucky, doesn't make them a Mary Sue, the are nearly faster and more skilled, not as strong or tough or as numerous, and they don't have time for buddies.. They are dying to make sure others can, pretty sure a Space Wolf doesn't want to be your buddy (Pretty sure your not a war hero or a world class drinker) And Dwarfs think they are superior then everyone! There word for human is the same as stupid.. I really think you should read a little more fluff before you make assumptions, and most Elves are humble about it, hence why they have allies and march along side humans and Dwarfs now, you might have only read fluff based on the High Elves before and during the original fall (When the Dark Elves split from the High Elves) because now only a few don't act humble, and they normally have a reason, and they are far from perfect, they are just fast and skilled, not as strong as a human, not as tough as a human, not as numerous, and as for the last part about being the line of defence, they are the first line of defence, and then they are in every other line with their allies, exactly the same as Space Marines, and shiny warhost? Once against same as Marines, they fight for honour and to defend their home and their allies, just like Space Marines, they don't murder continents or burn cities cause someone says their main god is a dick or doesn't exist, they don't believe in killing though who don't follow them, dude, you really need to read more books or even a lexicanium article, hell read 1d4chans High Elves page, you saying stuff without knowing anything about it, you know the bare minimum, read some of that stuff, or the books, trust me, your view would change, I had a similar view when I started, read a few novels from each race, fell the Elves, they are what the Space Marines should have been like, I hope you enjoy the books man, they are good, you might also like Dwarfs fluff (Some of the Elves novels are basically Dwarf books).

Elves are definitely not that perfect. They just tend to be more extreme in whatever they do. But if you want to get a feel of what elves can be like, I highly recommend Headshot's stories in Story Telling forum, starting here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36889.

Also this, great idea, completely forgot about this, good reading, but novels are more fluff, still worth it!

[Immersturm]

Well, I am making assumptions, because I do not know any better, which is why I asked for some decent sources to read from

But anyway, I decided to go with HE on this one instead of WoC. I already have a Viking army. With Elves I was planning a mix between Charce and a Celtic aesthetic. I have something really awesome in mind, hard to describe though.

I also had my very first game. 2k HE against WoC. I tabled him bottom of turn 4. Felt good

[wisetiger7]

@Honourblade: Good lord. Is that whole thing just one run-on sentence?!

@Immursturm: The lesson to take from here... Don't come onto the High Elf forums and complain about High Elfs. People immediately get defensive.

Hilarity aside, I started my tabletop wargaming with High Elfs simply because I loved High Elf culture (well, that and also my roommate wanted to play Skaven, so we just split like 4 boxes of Island of Blood lol). It is a culture that takes pride in perfecting their art over centuries rather than decades like the other races, whether that art be martial, magical, or other. They have the arrogance not out of ignorance or naivete, but because they are confident in their art, having practiced it hundreds or thousands of years longer than most other races. Heck, they even taught the Empire how to wield magic, and helped them form the Colleges of Magic.

Which leads me to my next point. The High Elfs understand the necessity of alliances. They know that their numbers are dwindling. They know that they cannot protect the world from chaos by themselves. They share their knowledge, they trade enchanted weapons, and they know that they will have to do whatever is necessary to keep this world spinning, even if it might make them look bad (see Teclis during the End Times). They are basically Batman from the Dark Knight Trilogy (the whole "He's what Gotham needs, but not what it deserves" or something like that).

Elven culture, as a whole (including Wood Elfs and Dark Elfs) seem, to me, the extremes of human emotions, particularly those of hubris yet self-sacrifice (okay maybe not the Dark Elfs initially, but ET for sure). They know they can die just as easily as any of the more mortal, shorter-lived races, but they join battle just the same. In a sense, it reminds me much of the elves in The Two Towers at Helms Deep. They go there, knowing very well that they are going to die, but they do it anyway, because they know they have to, and they know it is the right thing to do.

Actual playability, I love High Elfs because they have such a wide variety of strategies and tactics you can use. Using reavers and eagles to draw the enemy into favorable close combat situations, having a slight speed advantage to outmaneuver your opponents, decent protection (for elfs anyways), and any kind of unit you can ask for, short of cannons. Much like Space Wolves (I think, and please clarify if I am mistaken about this) they enter into combat with the goal of breaking their enemy in one turn. Space Wolves do it more out of ferocity and resilience, High Elfs do it more out of skill and sheer damage output (as their bodies are significantly frailer). The richness of the tactics you can utilize, how well they perform those tactics, and the mix combinations of tactics in your overall strategy is the reason I keep coming back to High Elfs. They are simply fun to play. A bit more difficult, mind you, than most of the other armies, but once you learn how to use these tactics in your favor, you will feel more rewarded, knowing you are a better general. Because it takes a good general to use them well. High Elfs are not a boring 'push' army like many others. You don't just move the entire battle line forward and hope for lucky dice rolls. Their tactics need refinement. You practice your strategies and tactics until you know them well (just like elfs practice over centuries and millennia) because the better you know them, the better your army will perform. And yes, all armies are like that. But with High Elfs, it is more rewarding.

Good lord, I'm long-winded.

Edit: I also love Dwarf culture, so maybe that might show you that I'm not one of those "I love elfs and always play elfs in everything I play" kind of people. Also, I have seriously considered starting a Space Wolf army, but Fantasy is just so much fun to play. My 1000 points Grey Knights are just gathering dust.

Ahh... the actual Dark Knight quote: "Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight."

[Immersturm]

Well, 40k is a whole different breed entirely. The meta has moved to extreme amount of high strength shooting spam. The high toughness of Marines means nothing next to that and their good armour save (strength does not modify armour) is negated by the staggering amount of wounds piled on to them. They are as fragile as Elves would be.
My way around it is going for pure destruction in return. My toughness comes from characters that are specifically kited to take shots. I spend something like 250 points per character at 1750 points, of which I usually have two. The rest comes from units that cost around 300 points each. Including characters I am playing 500-600 points per unit.
However, unlike Fantasy, the damage those units deal can be catastrophic on so many levels.

Basically, I hit hard and attempt to seal the game T1-T2 because my toughness means little. This is also the way I under HE. They are tough as wet tissue paper, but they are capable of dealing a lot of damage up front with ASF, high I, good WS and decent strength. So necessity dictates that the combat needs to be over ASAP, lest I take too many losses in a grind (Phoenix Guard notwithstanding).

So yeah, gameplay wise, I like them. Especially after having tried them. The high speed of Cav armies feels familiar to me after all
The looks also appeal to me (after some minor alterations though).
And the fluff? Meh, I just make up my own for my little group of elves, like I always do with my armies

Btw, if you want to start SW, come to Bolter and Chainsword. Great Wolf community there
GK are rather boring by comparison