Petition for GW

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Myth
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Petition for GW

#1 Post by Myth »

Hi guys,
I guess this has been discussed frequently over last 3-4 years and maybe it is fool's hope, but I think it worth trying ('to try' is the first pre-requirement to achieve anything).

It is petition for GW, about their way of running business over past few years and business model they adopt. Please spare some time, read this and if you agree join and sign it.

http://www.change.org/p/games-workshop- ... ures#share

At least let us try influence and improve game and hobby we all like and which I believe, makes better part of our lives.
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Re: Petition for GW

#2 Post by NexS »

I don't know how much good it will do, but anything is better than sitting here whining about them.

Fingers crossed.
Regards,
Brad
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Re: Petition for GW

#3 Post by Ptolemy »

I've never been overly convinced that the people behind movements like this actually know what is best for the company to do, but I wish people luck in their effort.
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Re: Petition for GW

#4 Post by NexS »

Ptolemy wrote:I've never been overly convinced that the people behind movements like this actually know what is best for the company to do, but I wish people luck in their effort.
It's not necessarily what's best for the company, but what's best for the customers.
Actually, isn't servicing customers what makes a company successful?
Regards,
Brad
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Re: Petition for GW

#5 Post by Prince of Spires »

NexS wrote:
Ptolemy wrote:I've never been overly convinced that the people behind movements like this actually know what is best for the company to do, but I wish people luck in their effort.
It's not necessarily what's best for the company, but what's best for the customers.
Actually, isn't servicing customers what makes a company successful?
Nope. What makes a company successful is the ability to earn money. As one of my university professors once put it "no company with a positive cashflow and money in the bank has ever gone bankrupt". On the other hand, plenty of customer friendly companies have gone out of business for not actually making any money.

Don't get me wrong, great customer service and giving customers what they want often lead to a successful business. But miniature making being what it is, making money is and should be the first priority of GW.

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Re: Petition for GW

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I obviously don't know how to run a company but I still wonder why in the case of GW good customer care and service cannot be part of making profit.
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Re: Petition for GW

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

It was in the 70's and 80's.

They were doing well and making money. Then the business mushroomed and they decided they wanted to make lots more money. That cost the community side of things.
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Re: Petition for GW

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

No idea. One thing to keep in mind is that the world was very different in the 70's and 80's. Already no competition in terms of computers, longer attention span with customers, no internet competition. Lower cost of labour and lower cost of material. And so on. It was a different world.

My guess would be that GW has a very different look at the game from (at least some of) its customers. They care less about game balance and more about putting "fun" armies on the table. They like playing with houserules or custom made scenarios. So, things like FAQ's and answering emails about rules questions aren't that important. Since they aren't important, that's an easy budget cut to make.

As for price (which is probably the main complaint about GW), they probably consider it a normal price for a premium product.

In other customer service, they actually aren't that bad. Better then a lot of companies I've run into at least. They generally give you very little fuss about bad finecast casts or delivering missing parts (at least from what I've read). And yes, they like getting a bigger share of wallet from customers (most companies do). But in terms of making stuff yourself, more information can be found online then they can fit in WD. So it's not a real loss that that part is no longer there.

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Re: Petition for GW

#9 Post by Curu Olannon »

Prince of Spires wrote: My guess would be that GW has a very different look at the game from (at least some of) its customers. They care less about game balance and more about putting "fun" armies on the table. They like playing with houserules or custom made scenarios. So, things like FAQ's and answering emails about rules questions aren't that important. Since they aren't important, that's an easy budget cut to make.
What I don't understand is why they can't cater to everyone and take a look at what their competitors are doing that they are not. FAQs and game balance have negligible costs compared to what they are potentially losing out to. Even though they have their own view about how things "should be done", any company should look towards its more successful competitors to see how things can be done.

Now I don't have an economic overview here, but it would appear to me that the games largely driving GWs shares down are better balanced and supported, which makes perfect sense in my opinion: When was the last time a computer-based RTS/RPG game became a big hit when it was largely unbalanced? It doesn't happen, because people tire of it.
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Re: Petition for GW

#10 Post by Lord Anathir »

I'll sign it. No harm in supporting something I'd like to see.

I have 0 expectations of any sort of result ofc.
Last edited by Lord Anathir on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Petition for GW

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

Curu Olannon wrote: any company should look towards its more successful competitors to see how things can be done.
More successful competitors? Which company would that be? As far as I can tell no company matches GW in terms of scale, market share, sales volume, profit, mind share or any other metric I can think of that measures business success.

The only one that may not go in favor of GW is customer satisfaction. But I'm not sure anything GW does will get universal customer approval. It's the downside of being the big company everybody knows and everybody is aiming at.

As far as I can tell, WH has never been a balanced game. And certain builds have always been strongest or polarised. And still they've become the biggest name in the game. Also, most players at the moment (before the 50% patch) are actually saying the game is the most balanced it has been in a very long time. So in a way they are listening.

I'm not saying that GW shouldn't look at competitors or listen to customers and fans. But they are very successful at what they do, so they must be doing something right. And since GW doesn't show all their cards, we have no way of knowing why they do what they do. Who knows, perhaps the effort they made early 8th ed. to keep all FAQ's updated got them a lot of complaints from customers. Or they are simply not visited a lot (compared to their total customer base). Or they do nothing to promote sales and so only cost money. Keep in mind here that the tournament going top player is the minority here. It's very well possible 80% of their customers don't even know they have FAQs or care.

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Re: Petition for GW

#12 Post by Lord Anathir »

a lot of sigs. Already over 5k.

BTW warmachine isnt a balanced game either. So for a so called competitive game PP are doing quite poorly. But they at least try and care.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

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Re: Petition for GW

#13 Post by Iluvatar »

Lord Anathir wrote:a lot of sigs. Already over 5k.
I'll probably sign the petition, but... this? Over 5k is a lot? For GW? I really can't believe it...
(no offense meant. It's pure disbelief at what even 10k signatures would mean compared GW's total customer base.)
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Re: Petition for GW

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

Until the late 80's GW were a part of the role playing/wargaming community. After, they were separate from it pretty much. Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone (and Bryan Ansell) were gamers. The guys who came after weren't. Up until then White Dwarf was a resource for players of many different games, although D&D was no 1 and TSR were in a small way the GW of the day.

WD had a letters page, generally appreciative of GW but there was occasional criticism. There were independent reviews of GW and other products, with honest evaluations. There was an excellent book review coulumn by Dave Langford. GW sold other people's games and took adverts from all sorts of independents.

Then GW moved everything to Nottingham, losing staff who wouldn't move. They lost several of the best figure designers and produced worse models for several years. WD became purely a house organ (as I think Dragon had been) with no independence. Other games and manufacturers were phased out. Selling terms were renegotiated. The early 90's was a time of recession and under pressure, many independents (I knew two personally) went under and were replaced by GW shops.

So I guess it was when GW was sold on that things changed. Whether they could have been different I don't know.
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Re: Petition for GW

#15 Post by RogueSun »

Lord Anathir wrote:So for a so called competitive game PP are doing quite poorly.
This isn't even remotely true. In 2010 there was a big upset when Warmachine displaced Warhammer Fantasy as the 2nd most grossing non-collectible miniature game for Quarter4 of the finiancial year (source)

Currently WHFB isn't even on the top 5 list while the popularity of WM and Hordes is consistently increasing (source).

The latest report from GW even shows a decrease of revenue of nearly 10 million pounds from last year (source). PP is still a private company so financial reports for them are unavailable.

PP is doing just fine.
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Re: Petition for GW

#16 Post by Curu Olannon »

GW's trend is extremely negative Rod, they are losing money soon on Fantasy (if they aren't already, could very well be). True, the balance has improved tremendously over the years from some of the truly broken things we had in earlier editions. But they are not doing what they can because their priorities lie elsewhere, which is why I think they've taken a turn for the worse since other companies are actually making money.

GW has, arguably, the richest universe and, being first, they have some unique ideas and concepts. This creates the fantasy world we all love, with unique elements and a solid background. This is, in my opinion, why they still have a hope. But if they don't start making money again, it's only a question of time before Warhammer Fantasy is chopped.
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Re: Petition for GW

#17 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

RogueSun wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:So for a so called competitive game PP are doing quite poorly.
This isn't even remotely true. In 2010 there was a big upset when Warmachine displaced Warhammer Fantasy as the 2nd most grossing non-collectible miniature game for Quarter4 of the finiancial year (source)

Currently WHFB isn't even on the top 5 list while the popularity of WM and Hordes is consistently increasing (source).

The latest report from GW even shows a decrease of revenue of nearly 10 million pounds from last year (source). PP is still a private company so financial reports for them are unavailable.

PP is doing just fine.
He meant as far as a balanced competitive game. Not $$.
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Re: Petition for GW

#18 Post by Tethlis »

Prince of Spires wrote: More successful competitors? Which company would that be? As far as I can tell no company matches GW in terms of scale, market share, sales volume, profit, mind share or any other metric I can think of that measures business success.
In YoY growth, profit margin, customer satisfaction, and employee satisfaction, Corvus Belli and Privateer Press smoke Games Workshop.

Being big doesn't mean being big forever. For the last few years, other tabletop game systems have been growing hand-over-fist. GW's golden age of having a veritable tabletop gaming monopoly (which they had when they went public) is long over. Now they actually have competition from other companies, and have been utterly failing to keep up with that competition. Play a game like Infinity, where the rules are available online for free, the company provides official support fo the tournament scene, a tournament-ready competitive army is less than 150 dollars, the design team/staff travels around the world to appear at events, answer questions, discuss the hobby and hang out with their fans, and where they actually base company policy on what their fans like...

There's a reason I haven't spent money on GW in years, when you mke the comparison. Other companies are keeping their customers happy while still seeing amazing growth, and expanding their product line. Infinity is releasing their third rules edition later this year, with half a dozen new models rolled out every month, without fail. They've found a great balance between profitability and customer satisfaction.

GW has set the bar so low in terms of expectation that it's actually shocking when you get out there and see some of the amazing things other tabletop gaming companies are doing.
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Re: Petition for GW

#19 Post by Lord Anathir »

Tethlis wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote: More successful competitors? Which company would that be? As far as I can tell no company matches GW in terms of scale, market share, sales volume, profit, mind share or any other metric I can think of that measures business success.
In YoY growth, profit margin, customer satisfaction, and employee satisfaction, Corvus Belli and Privateer Press smoke Games Workshop.

Being big doesn't mean being big forever. For the last few years, other tabletop game systems have been growing hand-over-fist. GW's golden age of having a veritable tabletop gaming monopoly (which they had when they went public) is long over. Now they actually have competition from other companies, and have been utterly failing to keep up with that competition. Play a game like Infinity, where the rules are available online for free, the company provides official support fo the tournament scene, a tournament-ready competitive army is less than 150 dollars, the design team/staff travels around the world to appear at events, answer questions, discuss the hobby and hang out with their fans, and where they actually base company policy on what their fans like...

There's a reason I haven't spent money on GW in years, when you mke the comparison. Other companies are keeping their customers happy while still seeing amazing growth, and expanding their product line. Infinity is releasing their third rules edition later this year, with half a dozen new models rolled out every month, without fail. They've found a great balance between profitability and customer satisfaction.

GW has set the bar so low in terms of expectation that it's actually shocking when you get out there and see some of the amazing things other tabletop gaming companies are doing.
But in the end, the final end game of PP is just rubbish. Lets go over everything:
1. Model quality: many of pp's are rubbish. Have you seen them in person? The steampunk feel is over done and some of the plastics are laughably bad in detail and quality. I bought some retribution and they were just god awful.
2. IP: Few actually care about cygnar, trollbloods or any made up race. Dwarfs/elves/humans/orcs any day.
3. Game Aesthetics and general feel: WM games don't look like actual battles or armies. Terrain to them is a felt cut-out. Also all sorts of garbage like AOE rings to mark cloud effects and all that. Cards also heavily take away from the feel of the game. WM isn't really a war game in the same way chess isn't. The pieces represent war pieces but the game as a whole does not.
4. Rules: For a competitive game warmachine is woefully unbalanced. (Additionally, while not really that important, not having a single source with all your army's rules is annoying. When I first started WM I couldn't figure out where to get a complete list of all my faction's rules (and everyone else's faction), seeing as the books are outdated.) While anyone can argue WM rules are more clear, in the end people still manage to play WHFB mostly without issue.
5. RPG/Immersion element: You can't make your own mundane general/character in warmachine (this a crushing blow to anyone that likes to play in tournaments AND campaigns or story based games). Additionally in tournaments you can take different lists of different armies. So you lose the whole identification and immersion factor of being say, a "dwarf general" or a "HELF player" .
6. Gamer culture: For some reason top WM players don't like painting their armies nicely. I understand the WAACY attitude of the game, I encourage it even. But there isn't even a basic level of respect for non gaming part of the hobby. Most tournament players in WHFB care about how their army looks, in my experience anyways.
7. Cost: It actually costs more than GW. With the multi lists from different armies and the tendency for competitive lists to min max model choices, the price goes up very very fast. Also remember there are no "core" models, so many of the pieces aren't recyclable in different lists. Often the list of 1 faction's caster is entirely different than that of another caster of the same faction.

I also don't really believe that WM is a more tactical game than WHFB. In my experience with WM I've always felt that it gives the notion of being a tactical game through the use of synergies (much like how it is in magic the gathering). There are levels of play in WHFB that most players don't even know exist, and so the game is discarded as being one of luck or simplistic. I've been around WHFB for many years but I see and hear what some players say/do (like Furion) that had never occurred to me, and its made me realize how much more there is to learn in this game.

So really, even GW's WHFB at its lowest point is still, for me, a much better game in all respects than war machine. In every aspect. Remember that a lot of people who quit WHFB and moved to warmachine are the ones that got frustrated with this game. IE they failed at it. They couldn't handle it. So now they've moved off to something where they can put together some synergies in their army lists and it makes them feel like they're doing well at something. WM is not some utopian game.

The only thing PP do better than GW of consequence is they film and cast tournaments. It was nice to see what the game was like at the highest level and how ugly everyone's models were.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Petition for GW

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

RogueSun wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:So for a so called competitive game PP are doing quite poorly.
This isn't even remotely true. In 2010 there was a big upset when Warmachine displaced Warhammer Fantasy as the 2nd most grossing non-collectible miniature game for Quarter4 of the finiancial year (source)

Currently WHFB isn't even on the top 5 list while the popularity of WM and Hordes is consistently increasing (source).

The latest report from GW even shows a decrease of revenue of nearly 10 million pounds from last year (source). PP is still a private company so financial reports for them are unavailable.

PP is doing just fine.
Curu Olannon wrote:GW's trend is extremely negative Rod, they are losing money soon on Fantasy (if they aren't already, could very well be). True, the balance has improved tremendously over the years from some of the truly broken things we had in earlier editions. But they are not doing what they can because their priorities lie elsewhere, which is why I think they've taken a turn for the worse since other companies are actually making money.
Tethlis wrote: In YoY growth, profit margin, customer satisfaction, and employee satisfaction, Corvus Belli and Privateer Press smoke Games Workshop.
Replying to these 3 posts together, since they are roughly arguing the same thing. I don't actually believe any of it. I would love to see some actual figures. But this is what I can find. Taking it bit by bit.

The claim that GW is tanking and rushing to the bottom. Not true. There is no down trend. See the annual reports on http://investor.games-workshop.com/. Yes, 2013 - 2014 was a bad year, with a 9 mil drop. But about half of that was due to currency issues (as in selling stuff in dollars but accounting in pounds). And the 3 years prior to this saw an increase in revenue and profit. The 2014 revenue and profit are still above those of 2011. So there is no negative trend. Especially no extremely negative one.

As for PP, it is very hard to find actual figures. And I would love to see any available to people. But they are a small, private company. They don't publish their numbers (at least not where I can find them). So any guesswork is just that, guesswork. But as far as I can tell, pretty much all statements here about PP are huge exaggerations. As far as I can tell, PP has a revenue of about $5 million (as found source and source). Which is 4% of total GW revenue. They aren't even close.

Look at it another way. Say those estimates are too low. And PP revenue is double those estimates at $10 million. And WH fantasy is at the low end of all estimates regarding GW revenue, which is about 30%. Then, in this worst case scenario, WH fantasy revenue is still more then 3 times as much as PP total revenue. Even GW profit in this "disaster" year (12 million) is bigger then the total revenue of PP. PP is not even close to GW.

As for those sources talking about how PP has overtaken GW WH. I'm not sure what they are measuring or how. But judging from the above, then it sounds pretty bogus to me. But I don't know what they measure or how. I can't actually see their numbers. So it's hard to say anything definitive about them. But it looks like someone just interviewed a few independent shops and asked them which sold better, WH or PP. Which is not really useful in determining actual size. I'd rather just use those actual figures available which suggest that at best, PP has about 30% of the sales of WH.

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Re: Petition for GW

#21 Post by Curu Olannon »

I wish I could find some sources, Rod. What I can say is that I remember reading a letter to GW's investors, basically saying that fantasy was having a very rough time. I believe 40k is mainly where GW earn their money. I also know a guy that is supposed to know things (I can't elaborate on this in public, give me a PM if you're interested), whose information is obviously second-hand, at best.

Anyway, the complete picture is likely impossible for anyone to see. I don't see GW cutting fantasy anytime soon, but I don't like the trend I'm seeing, neither from a player's point of view or from the company's business model point of view. True, the End Times is a refreshing experience (although balance-wise it's thus far been a huge throw-back from a lot of well-made 8th edition army books) with excellent fluff, but it appears to be almost more of a desperation move than anything else. Worst case, it's a do-or-die for Warhammer Fantasy.
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Re: Petition for GW

#22 Post by Ptolemy »

Prince of Spires wrote:
RogueSun wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:So for a so called competitive game PP are doing quite poorly.
This isn't even remotely true. In 2010 there was a big upset when Warmachine displaced Warhammer Fantasy as the 2nd most grossing non-collectible miniature game for Quarter4 of the finiancial year (source)

Currently WHFB isn't even on the top 5 list while the popularity of WM and Hordes is consistently increasing (source).

The latest report from GW even shows a decrease of revenue of nearly 10 million pounds from last year (source). PP is still a private company so financial reports for them are unavailable.

PP is doing just fine.
Curu Olannon wrote:GW's trend is extremely negative Rod, they are losing money soon on Fantasy (if they aren't already, could very well be). True, the balance has improved tremendously over the years from some of the truly broken things we had in earlier editions. But they are not doing what they can because their priorities lie elsewhere, which is why I think they've taken a turn for the worse since other companies are actually making money.
Tethlis wrote: In YoY growth, profit margin, customer satisfaction, and employee satisfaction, Corvus Belli and Privateer Press smoke Games Workshop.
Replying to these 3 posts together, since they are roughly arguing the same thing. I don't actually believe any of it. I would love to see some actual figures. But this is what I can find. Taking it bit by bit.

The claim that GW is tanking and rushing to the bottom. Not true. There is no down trend. See the annual reports on http://investor.games-workshop.com/. Yes, 2013 - 2014 was a bad year, with a 9 mil drop. But about half of that was due to currency issues (as in selling stuff in dollars but accounting in pounds). And the 3 years prior to this saw an increase in revenue and profit. The 2014 revenue and profit are still above those of 2011. So there is no negative trend. Especially no extremely negative one.

As for PP, it is very hard to find actual figures. And I would love to see any available to people. But they are a small, private company. They don't publish their numbers (at least not where I can find them). So any guesswork is just that, guesswork. But as far as I can tell, pretty much all statements here about PP are huge exaggerations. As far as I can tell, PP has a revenue of about $5 million (as found source and source). Which is 4% of total GW revenue. They aren't even close.

Look at it another way. Say those estimates are too low. And PP revenue is double those estimates at $10 million. And WH fantasy is at the low end of all estimates regarding GW revenue, which is about 30%. Then, in this worst case scenario, WH fantasy revenue is still more then 3 times as much as PP total revenue. Even GW profit in this "disaster" year (12 million) is bigger then the total revenue of PP. PP is not even close to GW.

As for those sources talking about how PP has overtaken GW WH. I'm not sure what they are measuring or how. But judging from the above, then it sounds pretty bogus to me. But I don't know what they measure or how. I can't actually see their numbers. So it's hard to say anything definitive about them. But it looks like someone just interviewed a few independent shops and asked them which sold better, WH or PP. Which is not really useful in determining actual size. I'd rather just use those actual figures available which suggest that at best, PP has about 30% of the sales of WH.

Rod
Bingo. As an economist, I kind of scratch my head when people take the reports from GW (many of the people reading/commenting on them don't even actually understand what they imply, let alone what they say) and immediately extrapolate that PP or whatever other company you like has 'better customer service'. It's anecdotal at best...I've got plenty of anecdotes of GW customer service and they are top notch. Doesn't mean I'm right either. We can't just make blanket statements without evidence.

I also agree from a technical standpoint that no one on the market (no one) makes models even close to the same quality of GW over anywhere near the same scale. If you don't like the look of a model, fine. If you think GW models have no 'soul' (whatever that means, I've seen that on the net while people wax poetic about GW classic 2d models which all look like they were suffering from gout the way many were posed) that's fine. However, no one delivers a kit, in plastic to anywhere near the same quality level. It's not even close. Current GW models can be dry fit and will almost stay together without glue if the joins are right. The precision and lack of fuzziness (areas on models where the details are questionable) are incredible. A kit like Nagash is so freaking beyond what anyone else can do (especially at that price! Go look at what an independent modeler will charge you for a huge one off model) its really incredible.

Fantasy does need to turn around, of course. No argument. But the notion that GW is facing a serious market share threat from Corvus Belli or its like I just can't see. If 40k went down, all of these other games would go down with it. GW's product supports almost the entire sci-fi and fantasy miniature hobby in general.
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
NexS
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Re: Petition for GW

#23 Post by NexS »

For me, the petition (the OP, haha) has nothing to do with whether GW make great models, or sell models at a good profit (ie: making money).
For me, it is about the fact that they are more interested in making models than supporting WHFB game, and I fear that everything I like about Fantasy will be stripped away, making it Warhammer 40k with square bases. It's easier for them to focus on expensive models instead of well-thought-out gameplay. 40k is the dull brother to WHFB and it would be such a shame to see all the detail lost to the point that it turns into "Wargaming for Idiots".


I like the complexity, I like thinking and re-thinking tactics and army lists.
I like collecting and painting/converting GW models.

The above are two separate halves to the game of WHFB and should be treated with equal time and respect. When GW spend more time on one, the other suffers, and when the provider of these things tells me that I only enjoy collecting models, it pisses me off.

We, as customers, should not allow GW to tell us what we like. They should get their heads out of their pillowcovers(*) and not pretend they know what they're talking about
:D



(*) - censored
Regards,
Brad
------------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53518&start=0]Visit The Nexs-Files Conversion/Painting Log[/url]
SpellArcher
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Re: Petition for GW

#24 Post by SpellArcher »

The quality of GW's metal models had a lot to do with the sculptors they had at any particular time. 3rd and 6th were especially good on the whole.

Plastic is a different ballgame.
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Rabidnid
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Re: Petition for GW

#25 Post by Rabidnid »

Prince of Spires wrote:
NexS wrote:
Ptolemy wrote:I've never been overly convinced that the people behind movements like this actually know what is best for the company to do, but I wish people luck in their effort.
It's not necessarily what's best for the company, but what's best for the customers.
Actually, isn't servicing customers what makes a company successful?
Nope. What makes a company successful is the ability to earn money. As one of my university professors once put it "no company with a positive cashflow and money in the bank has ever gone bankrupt". On the other hand, plenty of customer friendly companies have gone out of business for not actually making any money.

Don't get me wrong, great customer service and giving customers what they want often lead to a successful business. But miniature making being what it is, making money is and should be the first priority of GW.

Rod
Yup, Its the law of diminishing returns. Customer service is a nice to have but costs disproportionately more that just about anything else. WHFB is a great balanced game at the moment, and if GW want's to flog enormous $150 models to stay in business I for one support this decision. As long as GW provides an environment like most GW stores to play in, they are doing 10 times more than any other game company to support the hobby.
"Luck is the residue of design"
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Petition for GW

#26 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ptolemy wrote:
Bunch of people wrote:...stuff...
Bingo. As an economist, I kind of scratch my head when people take the reports from GW (many of the people reading/commenting on them don't even actually understand what they imply, let alone what they say) and immediately extrapolate that PP or whatever other company you like has 'better customer service'. It's anecdotal at best...I've got plenty of anecdotes of GW customer service and they are top notch. Doesn't mean I'm right either. We can't just make blanket statements without evidence.

I also agree from a technical standpoint that no one on the market (no one) makes models even close to the same quality of GW over anywhere near the same scale. If you don't like the look of a model, fine. If you think GW models have no 'soul' (whatever that means, I've seen that on the net while people wax poetic about GW classic 2d models which all look like they were suffering from gout the way many were posed) that's fine. However, no one delivers a kit, in plastic to anywhere near the same quality level. It's not even close. Current GW models can be dry fit and will almost stay together without glue if the joins are right. The precision and lack of fuzziness (areas on models where the details are questionable) are incredible. A kit like Nagash is so freaking beyond what anyone else can do (especially at that price! Go look at what an independent modeler will charge you for a huge one off model) its really incredible.

Fantasy does need to turn around, of course. No argument. But the notion that GW is facing a serious market share threat from Corvus Belli or its like I just can't see. If 40k went down, all of these other games would go down with it. GW's product supports almost the entire sci-fi and fantasy miniature hobby in general.
So, TL;DR - do you believe that GW is making or losing money on Warhammer Fantasy?
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Rabidnid
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Re: Petition for GW

#27 Post by Rabidnid »

Curu Olannon wrote: So, TL;DR - do you believe that GW is making or losing money on Warhammer Fantasy?

GW's business is primarily 40K. Fantasy is riding on the existing 40K infrastructure and only needs to sell what they produce to break even or better. I think Ptolemy's point is valid though. IF 40K didn't exist then most people would be playing WHFB because it is the best presented and has the best models, and the GW stores would still be hobby places and child minding centres for kids with an interest in minatures. Flames of War, Dropzone Commander, Warmachine, confrontation, Infinity, the various steampunk naval games etc, etc, don't have stores in major shopping centres, there is just no comparison between them and the GW business model.
"Luck is the residue of design"
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Prince of Spires
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Re: Petition for GW

#28 Post by Prince of Spires »

Curu Olannon wrote: So, TL;DR - do you believe that GW is making or losing money on Warhammer Fantasy?
That is actually an accounting issue and not a very easy to answer question. It really comes down to what costs GW assigns to WH if it is making money or not.

I agree that 40k is probably the main money maker at GW. If GW allocates half of their cost to 40k and half to WH, then WH is probably losing them money.

On the other hand, you could easily argue that WH doesn't actually have to cary any of the fixed costs. 40k is the main money maker of GW. If GW would only be selling 40k, then they would still need a website. They would still have stores (which in many cases can't be much smaller). They would still need a headquarter (though it could probably be a bit smaller). They would still need to do all their reporting.

Which means that for Fantasy to be of value to GW, they only need to make more money on it then the actual products cost to make. So, cost of creating the models and material cost and so on. And I am pretty sure that they are doing that. We already established they sell as much or more then PP press does. If PP can be profitable per model, then why can't GW? They have the reach and the numbers to make most of the models they launch profitable. Though I can imagine that some of the less popular races only make break-even simply due to lower numbers sold.

TL;DR: yes, GW earns more money making WH then they would without it.

I would be interested in more info if you have it of course. Feel free to PM it :)

Rod
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Viale
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Re: Petition for GW

#29 Post by Viale »

Speaking as someone who don't know much about economics.

How does the used model market influence GW's financial situation? I know from my own experience(and those I play with) that the vast majority of the figures we buy are used and from other people. I think the only money I have paid GW since I rekindled my interest in the hobby has been: the rulebook, army book, two phoenixes and a Dark Eldar Raider(for my flying war galley conversion) everything else has been from other people.

I suspect the internet has made it much harder for GW to turn a huge profit, and if the decline of Warhammer sales began during the nineties it meshes very well with the development of internet and it's accessibility to the regular person Ie. making it much easier for a second hand market to develop. Before the internet, it was very much down to "I know a guy who's tired of playing High Elves, do you wanna buy them?"


God I feel old talking about the times before the internet.
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Prince of Spires
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Re: Petition for GW

#30 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think the influence of computers and the internet is more indirect then direct. I think the whole attitude people have towards hobbies has changed. People tend to have a shorter attention span and seek more instant gratification. The speed of life has picked up over the past 2 decades. Just look at movie classics. Anything more then 15 years old will often feel slow and long winded.

In this light, I can see the appeal of tabletop wargames decreasing. Especially one that takes as much time as WH. Just looking at myself. I currently have a decent army, most of which is painted. It took me about 5 years to get to that point. Yes, I'm probably a bit slow. But I'm not the only one with more demands on my time then playing WH. And I can imagine that a big part of the WH demographic has that. Computer games steal a lot of time from potential WH players. Young males between 15 and 20.

The internet then works both ways. On the one hand, it creates a second hand market, which reduces GW sales. On the other hand, it also lowers the entry level of the game. Find a good deal online and you can quickly and cheaply have a decent army of your choice.

And, it is now easier then ever to find opponents online. Before, you really needed to know someone who had a network of people playing the game to get some games in. Or you had to have a local gamesshop close by where you could get some games. Now, just log in on a WH site of your choice and place an open request for games. Or log onto facebook and find a local community.

Another thing is that it's easier to keep up to date with new stuff. If you don't regularly visit a WH store, there would be no way of knowing what new stuff was out. Now, in an online community, you get heaps of excitement around a new release like the End Times.

Another downside is of course that it's much easier for independent small scale miniature makers to take away custom from GW and sell some miniatures.

So, it's a double edged sword.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
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