Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

[EmpireUser]

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. We as a community have been bitching, moaning, and whining about the stagnation of the Warhammer timelines (both Fantasy and 40k). We finally get a huge advancement in the storyline and everyone gets upset. At least they're actually trying something as opposed to sitting on their asses like we've seen for the last 5 or so years. I also find it hard to digest your complaints about wanting more fluff lists. There are three lists in the book, not one. The Host of Aestyrion and the Host of the Phoenix King make the exact thematic distinctions you claim you want. Yet you ignore them for the Host of the Eternity King.

Plus, the Eternity King list itself does exactly what you want: it allows the players to decide what belongs in their army and what doesn't. I've always wanted Wood Elves mixed with High Elves for a better Chracian theme. Now I can get it. Tons of folks have talked about making pre-Sundering Nagarthye armies. Now they can do it even better. I don't see how you can complain about a list that allows maximum flexibility to make a theme when that seems to be exactly what you want. If I'm not understanding your complaints I sincerely apologize.I'm digging this End Times stuff, though. I fully intend to use it.

Bravo! Exactly my way of seeing all this EoT stuff. I welcome a new order in the WHFB world even if it means to chance the satus quo everyone seems to love.

[RogueSun]

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. We as a community have been bitching, moaning, and whining about the stagnation of the Warhammer timelines (both Fantasy and 40k). We finally get a huge advancement in the storyline and everyone gets upset. At least they're actually trying something as opposed to sitting on their asses like we've seen for the last 5 or so years. I also find it hard to digest your complaints about wanting more fluff lists. There are three lists in the book, not one. The Host of Aestyrion and the Host of the Phoenix King make the exact thematic distinctions you claim you want. Yet you ignore them for the Host of the Eternity King.

Plus, the Eternity King list itself does exactly what you want: it allows the players to decide what belongs in their army and what doesn't. I've always wanted Wood Elves mixed with High Elves for a better Chracian theme. Now I can get it. Tons of folks have talked about making pre-Sundering Nagarthye armies. Now they can do it even better. I don't see how you can complain about a list that allows maximum flexibility to make a theme when that seems to be exactly what you want. If I'm not understanding your complaints I sincerely apologize.I'm digging this End Times stuff, though. I fully intend to use it.

Not quite though. The point of "Fluffy" lists should be to sacrifice certain power pieces in order to gain other thematic elements. So while you can indeed do a Chracian theme (but without Korhil, which I'd regard as very UNChracian), I can take the same list and build a power gaming list from it. Fluffy lists are like what Orion used to do in the old WE book. He switched around where a few models where in regards to core/special/rare and told you what models you had to use and what models you weren't allowed to have at all. This is just a grab bag of build whatever the hell you want and don't worry about the balance of power. I mean when your chracian list gets paired up against my Malekith led, Glade Guard core, Sisters, Warlocks, Frost Phoenix, etc. nightmare of a list is it really going to be all that fun to say you have "Chracian" theme?

I agree that the fluff needed to advance, and honestly I'm pretty neutral on the whole story. It's fine, I really don't mind. But they did phone in the lists portion. It's really not that hard to come up with some very thematic lists without saying "well this side gets ABCD&E and this side will get ABCD&F and then this side will get ABCDEF&G." Even the two Tyrion and Malekith lists aren't THAT different from each other...

[mcmulligan]

I actually like what they did with the Phoenix King list and the Aestyrion list. At least they are in fact different, and have character reflected in the story that created them. They aren't THAT creative, but at least they're different from each other, and only have select units.

The EK list is just everything. Aside from the people who died. No thought put into it whatsoever.

[Tethlis]

RogueSun covers my point. The first two hardly qualify as "thematic" lists when the third list simply includes anything and everything. Claiming that there's fluff associated with a specific list is moot when they include so much there clearly isn't much in the way of defined theme.

As for "bitching, moaning, and whining about the stagnation of the Warhammer timelines", speak for yourself. I don't buy the "we as a community" business, since that's a blatant generalization that ignores the standpoint of individuals. I've been part of this community for a long time, and I don't remember voting in a poll about the timeline being stagnant or not. I actively dislike when they start cramming in fluff about the different superfriend characters, because they're not my characters. I couldn't care less about Tyrion, Teclis, Malekith, or any other named character because they're not my characters.

I'm not really concerned. No part of the core game is impacted by any of this stuff. Life will continue for me as normal until 9th drops.

[Curu Olannon]

The lists -are- thematic. This is what Khaine is all about. He is an incredibly influential, all-consuming entity. Elves are split down the middle and groups of Elves originally having sided with one faction often split up in the book when some realized the insanity of aestyrion/were drawn closer to Khaine by his ever-increasing influence. I too wondered a bit how they´d explain stuff like Loremasters + Swordmasters in the Aestyrion list as well as the Phoenix King list for example, but it´s really all explained very well.

As for everything being in the Eternity King list, this makes perfect sense. They´re the surviving Elves and they are united. No single faction was exterminated for the sake of extermination.

The storyline in Warhammer: Khaine does not fit with more specialized/thematic lists. It´s half the point of the book, to show how big of a deal Khaine really is to Elves. Brother fighting Sister to the death happened in the days of Aenarion, it happens here, and it perfectly well explains how battle brothers forming regiments of White Lions or Swordmasters for example can separate like this.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Truthiness

I am afraid I disagree with your statement as well. I haven't read BL or ET books yet but from what I have read so far it is not only what but how it is delivered. I would be very happy to change my opinion after the reading but this is what I think at the moment.

1. Background

I don't think people on this forum complained that much about the fact that the storyline seemed stagnant. It is of course great to advance it. However, it is understandable that the magnitude of changes and the pace at which they are presented to players is what makes it harder to digest.

Personally, I don't have the problem with iconic characters dying. After all old heroes must pass away eventually so new ones can emerge and write new chapters in history.

My biggest issue with the changes we witness, however, is that I have an impression the decision to merge Elven armies was made on a totally different level and the writers were simply told to come up with a story to back it up in certain time frame to meet deadlines. I hope to change that impression after reading the books but as I said, this is what I think at the moment.

On top of that, from bits and pieces that have been already shared, it seems that the story is delivered in not convincing way. Again, I may change my mind after reading the books but at the moment I don't understand why Malekith is the chosen leader of the Elves when he is simply incompetent general to start with.

The story is not finished yet, some of the main characters are yet to make an appearance (for example Archaon) so I will try to be patient and wait for all the pieces to fall together and see the full picture. Maybe then all of this will make more sense.

2. Rules

I remember reading somewhere that the way they create things at design studio is model first, then the rules for it. Again, it seems like similar situation here, they decided to merge Elves, forced the story and decided to back it up with the rules.

I believe I understand the challenge here. You want to combine all the units you have in some way so players will see opportunities and not limitations. That new army lists will encourage them to buy new models.

However, the way the rules are written seems to be lazy. I didn't read Storm of Magic but people say new magic is not that new and it looks like GW tries to sell us old product in a new package. The idea of 3 army lists instead of one as in the case of Undead Legion or Chaos Legions is nice but again, the execution is lazy. The armies, as it was already said, do not really differ that much. What is more, the skills that were associated with each of the 3 factions and that represented their unique style of waging war as well as centuries of experience in it, suddenly are given to every elven warrior.

These army lists, that at the moment are for the campaign only, would have been much more interesting if they came with unique selection requirements and maybe even some new rules too. What about mutual mistrust between DE and HE forces that happen to fight on the same side? What about the fact that HE on both sides of the conflict would consider the others traitors? What about the rules that allow switching sides during the battle? There is not even the slightest attempt to represent that.

It all together leaves another impression - that all the ET campaign was rushed for some reason. The fact that we haven't gotten any new models supports that too. Which to me seems strange that the company that claims to focus on delivering fantastic models to players and collectors is not bringing anything new for part 3 yet.

I think that is why a lot of people seem to be disappointed. Not that they didn't get what they expected (because nobody really expected such campaign) but how it is all delivered and packed. And while at the moment it does not affect the core rules it certainly makes you think what it really means for the future of warhammer. People will eventually play what is officially supported. Hence the concern that if this is the way 9th edition is going to be delivered and this is what we can expect from the company then maybe the game is not going to be that great after all.

[Tethlis]

A good post by Swordmaster of Hoeth, one that mirrors my own reactions to these releases. In particular the idea that the Elven armies were united for retail purposes, and justified with fluff after the fact, is very apparent.

[draxynnic]

As for "bitching, moaning, and whining about the stagnation of the Warhammer timelines", speak for yourself.

Furthermore, I think part of the problem was that they kept advancing the timeline, then rewinding it back to the status quo. If they'd just stayed at the status quo I think everyone would have been fine with it, it's that they had these big global campaigns that were billed as having a permanent effect on the Warhammer world and which... didn't.

Regarding the End Times changes... something reminded me of the concept of extinction bursts last night, and I think that might be what's going on here. Their projections are that if they don't change something that WHF is going to slide into unprofitability, so they're making one big shakeup in the hopes that it'll turn things around. Potentially losing their existing customers because they're outraged by the changes may well have been deemed an acceptable risk if the alternative is guaranteed loss of the system.

There may even be a certain analogy to the sinking of Ulthuan there - a great loss to be sure, but if the alternative is Ulthuan falling to Chaos anyway... well, is it really a sacrifice if you're going to lose it either way?

It has to be said, though, that depending on how it all shakes out, I might be tempted to pick up one or two models I like for possible ornamental purposes and then withdraw from the hobby. I've been essentially sidelined by finances and lack of opportunity to play for years as it is.

[HERO]

My viewpoint is that I don't particularly care about GW's fluff decisions, because I stopped trusting GW years ago. I'm far more interested in how the community receives and interprets GW's choices, since it's the community that largely forms the rules around which the game is centered. GW can hunch in the corner with its relative insanity, spewing fluff and gameplay rules left and right, but it's what the community takes away from GW's incoherent money-grubbing ramblings that actually has me interested. 50% Lord allowance seems to be one major takeaway... While the rest is easily ignored.

If the community also chooses to ignore the Eternity King lists, etc. then I don't have much reason to pay attention to the fluff.

The thing for me is that I started reading the High Elf fluff a long, long time ago. They were like legends and fairy tales for me. I wouldn't change the Cinderella or Rapunzel legends because some idiot decided to write a slash fic of them. For me, the relationship between the Fantasy Elves is the same way. GW deciding to make a buck off of allowing Tyrion to resurrect skeletons has no relevancy to me whatsoever, unless the community at large starts allowing these rules into the mainstream. Since most groups and comps seem content to ignore End Times lists and End times special characters, I don't really care much about these changes. They don't impact how I play the game.

On a separate note... I wish GW had given at least some thought to making lists that were marginally themed or balanced. If the Elven End Time lists actually were divided up, so units like Warlocks went into one themed lists, Silver Helms to another, Dark Elf RBTs to one list, High Elf RBTs to another, etc., I would be thrilled with all this content. Forcing players to actually pick and choose what faction they wanted to play based off of loyalties, playstyle, units they enjoy, etc. would have been great. In the end, that's sort of a cardinal rule of game design right? Don't give all the choices to one faction, split the choices up so that players must choose the style and appearance they like best.

Instead, letting Billy the intern copy + paste every Elven unit into the Eternity King list just ruins any semblance of theme, fluff, and even ruins my desire to collect anything and expand on the miniatures I own. Cult of Slaanesh? Now that was great stuff, combining some Dark Elf units and some Chaos units to create a cool new force that was fairly balanced because it didn't contain many of the strongest units from both Dark Elf and Chaos army lists.

Here, it's just a lazy, sloppy cash grab with no thought to the hobbyist/gamer/collector in all of us. As a result, it's a cash grab I'm happy to ignore until we actually see GW introduce changes that are relevant to how people actually play their game.

I'm in the same boat. I just don't care enough with so many other game systems out there.

Cash grab? Cool, I'll look elsewhere :>

[Aicanor]

Over the last few weeks, our book releases – especially for the End Times – have proven so popular they’ve sold out. As a result, we’re printing new softback editions. Warhammer: Nagash and Warhammer: Glottkin are already available to order now from the Games Workshop website and will soon be available in Games Workshop stores and independent stockists. Currently the English editions are in stock, but we will be printing them in other languages in the near future. Both Warhammer: Khaine and Shield of Baal: Leviathan are also being printed as we speak and we hope to have them both back in stock before Christmas. Watch this space for details!

[Aramil Sianontel]

I'm in the same boat. I just don't care enough with so many other game systems out there.

Cash grab? Cool, I'll look elsewhere :>

this boat tends to become an arc these days...

[Rhawtir]

I would have to agree with one of the previous comments about the whining concerning stagnated story lines. I've been around here for ten years, and read stuff from here before that and playing the game for even longer, and from my point of view I see it as there's, for as long as I've played, been a surge among players for additions or development of the fluff. To be perfectly honest I think I can't remember a time when the fluff was not in debate, so I'll try and wait this whole thing out before I judge it all.

Some of you guys seem to be terribly disappointed about the quality of the fluff, but honestly, isn't that kind of what you get? I mean, even a company like Blizzard pjukes out tons of badly written story, cliché characters, boring twists and just plain dookie, yet people buy it all. Yet every now and then Blizzard come up with a gem among all of the nonsense, and I think it's pretty much the same with GW.

[SpellArcher]

There's been an issue for a while now that the guys who write Warhammer (since Alessio Cavatore left maybe) don't understand how to play it. In the past they've had good support and interaction with community playtesters and such but things like the info lockdown have hurt this.

That said, they have good relations with Ben Curry and his lads. If they could could have got input from them about getting more balance into the new lists and ended up with designs more like the aforementioned Cult of Slaanesh I think a lot of us would have been happier. At the moment it's too easy to draft Skillcannon and improved Reign of Chaos into your WoC list for the win.

What makes it more frustrating is the occasional nice touch like making Daemons Unstable in a Legion list. Simple, elegant and effective balancing rule. More of this would have been good.

[PrinceElthuanStarshine]

There's been an issue for a while now that the guys who write Warhammer (since Alessio Cavatore left maybe) don't understand how to play it. In the past they've had good support and interaction with community playtesters and such but things like the info lockdown have hurt this.

Cavatore could certainly write army books designed to be played and competitively at tournaments. However, the problem then was not all books were written by him, which would often leave those untouched by him at a disadvantage. Remember his Skaven book??

[Iluvatar]

@ TruthinessMy biggest issue with the changes we witness, however, is that I have an impression the decision to merge Elven armies was made on a totally different level and the writers were simply told to come up with a story to back it up in certain time frame to meet deadlines. I hope to change that impression after reading the books but as I said, this is what I think at the moment.

It's not an impression.

Games Workshop define themselves as a 'miniatures manufacturer'. That's how they started, making miniatures for well-known universes (Moorcock for instance) before inventing their own (and yes, I'm mixing GW and Citadel here, quite on purpose). That's their main business today too.
We would like to define them as 'games designers', to have more balanced systems and more feedback to/from the community, especially the tournament one.

No one actually defines Games Workshop as background writers.
There is no chance, ever, that the background and fluff drive their evolutions and decisions.
There is no chance, ever, that they write fully coherent and great fluff. Simply because there are several writers, and because all his driven by GW's central activity - miniatures manufacturing.

I'm really sorry to say this, but all people that expect great fluff from GW are in the wrong from the start. If you want great reading, I suggest other universes, where the origin is books and there are, possibly, derived games (and not the other way). My preferences of such are Tolkien, Moorcock and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.

And I say this in the friendliest way I can express it. Really no intention of hurting anyone.

On top of that, from bits and pieces that have been already shared, it seems that the story is delivered in not convincing way. Again, I may change my mind after reading the books but at the moment I don't understand why Malekith is the chosen leader of the Elves when he is simply incompetent general to start with.

The story is not finished yet, some of the main characters are yet to make an appearance (for example Archaon) so I will try to be patient and wait for all the pieces to fall together and see the full picture. Maybe then all of this will make more sense.

The story is not finished indeed, and some parts may seem better when we get the whole of it. Karl Franz's resurrection seemed a bit lame in Glottkin, but the explanation with him becoming an Avatar of a wind of magic is given in Khaine. And it makes the thing look better I think.
So indeed, I think we need to wait a bit before passing a final judgement on the whole of it.

[draxynnic]

Iluvatar: I disagree. What you're essentially saying is that the fluff is being driven by the mechanics, but it's certainly possible to have good story even when the story is being driven by the mechanics - and, in fact, a world that is designed to fit certain mechanics can often work better than trying to fit those mechanics to an existing world. A lot of the problems with World of Warcraft from my perspective, for instance, is that they started with fluff that was designed for an RTS, and then made an MMORPG with that fluff that until then had always been intended to be about clashes of armies rather than small bands of dungeon-raiding heroes.

The thing is, the end result for marketing could have been achieved with fluff that was much more palatable. For instance, this Asuryan-always-wanted-Malekith-and-put-the-elven-races-through-six-thousand-years-of-civil-war-because-Malekith's-pain-tolerance-was-a-few-seconds-too-low garbage? They could also have made that be, for instance, Asuryan makes the best of a bad lot by recognising that Malekith needs to have the throne to reunite the Elves (as that's the only way to bring the Dark Elves back into the fold) on the condition that he passes through, and is cleansed of his corruption by, the flames of the Shrine of Asuryan. That would be just as much of a win for the Druchii players, and a lot more palatable to Asur players without making their most important god come across as, well, to borrow someone else's term, Ass-uryan. Everything else could have played out pretty much the same (with the same end result, which is what Marketing was looking for) without needing to make the Creator God of the Elves a dick who screwed over his people for thousands of years because his chosen couldn't withstand being burned alive for a few moments more.

But I guess they just decided that "we have all been living a lie" was just too good a line to pass up, even if it involved breaking the fluff. Heck, they could have even kept THAT, if they'd just left it as "the Flames didn't actually reject Malekith, he was just tricked into believing that was what was happening."

[Baleanoon]

Iluvatar: I disagree. What you're essentially saying is that the fluff is being driven by the mechanics, but it's certainly possible to have good story even when the story is being driven by the mechanics - and, in fact, a world that is designed to fit certain mechanics can often work better than trying to fit those mechanics to an existing world. A lot of the problems with World of Warcraft from my perspective, for instance, is that they started with fluff that was designed for an RTS, and then made an MMORPG with that fluff that until then had always been intended to be about clashes of armies rather than small bands of dungeon-raiding heroes.

The thing is, the end result for marketing could have been achieved with fluff that was much more palatable. For instance, this Asuryan-always-wanted-Malekith-and-put-the-elven-races-through-six-thousand-years-of-civil-war-because-Malekith's-pain-tolerance-was-a-few-seconds-too-low garbage? They could also have made that be, for instance, Asuryan makes the best of a bad lot by recognising that Malekith needs to have the throne to reunite the Elves (as that's the only way to bring the Dark Elves back into the fold) on the condition that he passes through, and is cleansed of his corruption by, the flames of the Shrine of Asuryan. That would be just as much of a win for the Druchii players, and a lot more palatable to Asur players without making their most important god come across as, well, to borrow someone else's term, Ass-uryan. Everything else could have played out pretty much the same (with the same end result, which is what Marketing was looking for) without needing to make the Creator God of the Elves a dick who screwed over his people for thousands of years because his chosen couldn't withstand being burned alive for a few moments more.

But I guess they just decided that "we have all been living a lie" was just too good a line to pass up, even if it involved breaking the fluff. Heck, they could have even kept THAT, if they'd just left it as "the Flames didn't actually reject Malekith, he was just tricked into believing that was what was happening."

See the real problem here is you are either choosing to ignore or missing large parts of the fluff. Asuryan has always been an ass. Or did you think he was doing something when Khaine was running around the heavens waging unwinnable and unsupported wars against chaos, or killing/imprisoning other Elven gods? Or leaving Isha in the hands of Nurgle? Nah, its very consistent with his attitude. Asuryan is the ruler because he is the ruler he does what he wants, if he wants to and gets what he wants because he wants it. If you choose to or didn't see that before its not a failing of the fluff.

Its the same issue I have with a lot fo Chaos players who have no real idea about who or what the chaos gods are, and then complain about inconsistencies that are actually consistent.

It also doesn't help that many are forming their opinions based off of a summary and not having read the actual text by themselves. LotR is terrible when summarized, as is Dune. But if you read it, and feel what the primary actors feel draw conclusions based on the information you and they have at the time you can understand their choices. Similarly with Gelt a lot of people don't understand how he got from point a to b, but it actually is quite clear and perfectly understandable. Without reading the story itself you don't understand the timeline, End Times is happening over the course of years.

[Iluvatar]

Iluvatar: I disagree. What you're essentially saying is that the fluff is being driven by the mechanics, but it's certainly possible to have good story even when the story is being driven by the mechanics - and, in fact, a world that is designed to fit certain mechanics can often work better than trying to fit those mechanics to an existing world. A lot of the problems with World of Warcraft from my perspective, for instance, is that they started with fluff that was designed for an RTS, and then made an MMORPG with that fluff that until then had always been intended to be about clashes of armies rather than small bands of dungeon-raiding heroes.

I'm not exactly saying that the mechanics drive the fluff. I'm saying that GW's primary job is to design and sell miniatures. They should try to be at top level on this. Writing fluff is an addition that helps, but it's not the core of their business - pushing this idea, they could almost outsource the writing of the fluff, for instance. [not that this would necessarily be a good idea; but it's conceivable.]

The thing is, the end result for marketing could have been achieved with fluff that was much more palatable. For instance, this Asuryan-always-wanted-Malekith-and-put-the-elven-races-through-six-thousand-years-of-civil-war-because-Malekith's-pain-tolerance-was-a-few-seconds-too-low garbage? They could also have made that be, for instance, Asuryan makes the best of a bad lot by recognising that Malekith needs to have the throne to reunite the Elves (as that's the only way to bring the Dark Elves back into the fold) on the condition that he passes through, and is cleansed of his corruption by, the flames of the Shrine of Asuryan. That would be just as much of a win for the Druchii players, and a lot more palatable to Asur players without making their most important god come across as, well, to borrow someone else's term, Ass-uryan. Everything else could have played out pretty much the same (with the same end result, which is what Marketing was looking for) without needing to make the Creator God of the Elves a dick who screwed over his people for thousands of years because his chosen couldn't withstand being burned alive for a few moments more.

But I guess they just decided that "we have all been living a lie" was just too good a line to pass up, even if it involved breaking the fluff. Heck, they could have even kept THAT, if they'd just left it as "the Flames didn't actually reject Malekith, he was just tricked into believing that was what was happening."

Of course they could. But they have chosen another path, that they view more epic, or more attractive, or more susceptible to get people interested into buying their stuff.
I'm not saying they're right or that they have made a good story. I'm saying that we can't expect them to make the best decisions in fluff writing, but we should expect them to make the best decisions for miniatures manufacturing. Everything else is wrapping.
[and yet, they sold Finecast castings that should make them ashamed... ]

It also doesn't help that many are forming their opinions based off of a summary and not having read the actual text by themselves. LotR is terrible when summarized, as is Dune. But if you read it, and feel what the primary actors feel draw conclusions based on the information you and they have at the time you can understand their choices. Similarly with Gelt a lot of people don't understand how he got from point a to b, but it actually is quite clear and perfectly understandable. Without reading the story itself you don't understand the timeline, End Times is happening over the course of years.

Exactly. It doesn't help (again, not the core of the issue, but reading the actual texts - new and old - is actually essential before criticizing).
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is a great example of decisions that look plain stupid from characters if you have them summarized (including alliances between factions and such), but he presents them with each protagonist's point of view, and it all makes sense in the end.

[draxynnic]

Sure, Asuryan has dished out some harsh punishments, and generally been selfish - but these have been in response to being explicitly disobeyed. He never told ANYONE that Malekith was his chosen mortal representative, so there's no disobedience there. And then dicking over his worshippers four thousands of years over a decision that wasn't communicated isn't just being an ass. The Warhammer world is one where the power of a god is linked to the mortals associated with them, so he's literally cutting of his nose to spite his face in divine ranking terms.

And why Malekith? If he wanted Aenarion's heir, that wasn't actually Malekith, and Asuryan would have known that even if the Elves didn't. Even if Asuryan wanted Malekith to begin with, Malekith having turned away from Asuryan to Khaine should have disqualified him right there. That's the ultimate disobedience right there.

Not to mention that most of the Phoenix Kings that Asuryan supposedly drove insane showed no signs of insanity.

It's not that Asuryan is being an ass. It's that he's being an ass in a manner totally inconsistent with his own interests and nature, and with the previously established fluff.

[SpellArcher]

I recently read an interview with Bryan Ansell where he described a basically hands-off approach to the guys writing the rules and the fluff. Obviously this changed but at the time of Storm of Chaos for example, the writers, as well as wanting to sell models, still had a very clear desire to write balanced and functional rules and army lists. Plus they had the skill to do so. The 'we sell models' position was always there but never so naked, nor so blatant, as now.

The 6th edition Skaven book was simply a mistake. Alessio Cavatore later expressed much regret about it. I imagine the problem was insufficient playtesting. But this was a failure of execution, not a conscious strategy to ignore game balance as we see now.

[Baleanoon]

Sure, Asuryan has dished out some harsh punishments, and generally been selfish - but these have been in response to being explicitly disobeyed. He never told ANYONE that Malekith was his chosen mortal representative, so there's no disobedience there. And then dicking over his worshippers four thousands of years over a decision that wasn't communicated isn't just being an ass. The Warhammer world is one where the power of a god is linked to the mortals associated with them, so he's literally cutting of his nose to spite his face in divine ranking terms.

And why Malekith? If he wanted Aenarion's heir, that wasn't actually Malekith, and Asuryan would have known that even if the Elves didn't. Even if Asuryan wanted Malekith to begin with, Malekith having turned away from Asuryan to Khaine should have disqualified him right there. That's the ultimate disobedience right there.

Not to mention that most of the Phoenix Kings that Asuryan supposedly drove insane showed no signs of insanity.

It's not that Asuryan is being an ass. It's that he's being an ass in a manner totally inconsistent with his own interests and nature, and with the previously established fluff.

Explain being perfectly willing to let his son in law be killed by his raving brother, and have is most important daughter left in the lair of a chaos god for all of know history. He's an ass and does as he sees fit as king of gods, he doesn't have to explain his actions pr lack there of to anyone. Also, Malekith is pretty agnostic, he doesn't seem to worship anything or anyone, and is perfectly willing to let his followers find their own way. Why do good things happen to bad people? Christians say its a test a lot or, its happening because God knows you are strong enough to handle it. Who knows why Asuryan did as he did, you weren't going to get an answer and definitely aren't getting one now.

Notice also it was mostly the PG in direct opposition to Malekith who are most unstable, or had particularly powerful personality traits. He did let someone rule in place of Malekith so he wasn't being completely nonsensical.

[draxynnic]

First I've already done: Kurnous and Isha disobeyed him, and being given to Khaine was the punishment.

Second is a matter of relative power - he's weaker than the Chaos Gods and wasn't in a position to do something about it if he wanted to. Of course, that part, like elven souls going to Slaanesh, is an 8E import from 40K where Asuryan was explicitly dead and thus completely unable to do squat.

[Truthiness]

Not quite though. The point of "Fluffy" lists should be to sacrifice certain power pieces in order to gain other thematic elements. So while you can indeed do a Chracian theme (but without Korhil, which I'd regard as very UNChracian), I can take the same list and build a power gaming list from it. Fluffy lists are like what Orion used to do in the old WE book. He switched around where a few models where in regards to core/special/rare and told you what models you had to use and what models you weren't allowed to have at all. This is just a grab bag of build whatever the hell you want and don't worry about the balance of power. I mean when your chracian list gets paired up against my Malekith led, Glade Guard core, Sisters, Warlocks, Frost Phoenix, etc. nightmare of a list is it really going to be all that fun to say you have "Chracian" theme?

I agree that the fluff needed to advance, and honestly I'm pretty neutral on the whole story. It's fine, I really don't mind. But they did phone in the lists portion. It's really not that hard to come up with some very thematic lists without saying "well this side gets ABCD&E and this side will get ABCD&F and then this side will get ABCDEF&G." Even the two Tyrion and Malekith lists aren't THAT different from each other...

I guess we're just approaching this at two different angles. I like the flexibility the list gives me to do more. I don't really care about the power level that is theoretically possible. Frankly a power gamer is going to making a min-max'ed abomination regardless. If you wanted to follow fluff, we'd see a hell of a lot more Spearmen in lists. I don't play against power gamers. I would never have to play against your Malekith led example. That kind of thing just doesn't happen within my group of friends. My group plays first for fun. Winning is secondary. Some of my favorite games have been losses to my friend with Orcs and Goblins because he is simply a blast to play with. I'm also the kind of guy that takes a list down a notch and takes different choices if I'm just wiping the floor with a friend. Heck, I'll change up my list just to play something distinctly different for the hell of it. I prefer GW err on the side of giving us more options, that way an individual player can decide what they take and don't take based on their own theme ideas. Again, I'm coming at this from the angle of someone who plays almost exclusively themed armies.

Oh and no, I don't usually use Korhil because I tend to shy away from special characters. I do however, have plenty of White Lions, converted Phoenix Guard to fit the theme (just a helm transplant to be honest), lots of Wood Elves to use for my core (which I used as plain Archers and Reavers prior to this new list), a scratch built Loremaster with a giant axe and a Lion Cloak, and my Spearmen were converted to have Lion Cloaks as well (I've since further converted these to have Eternal Guard arms, weapons, and helms). Now I get to ditch the Phoenix Guard for Wild Riders, ditch the Bolt Throwers (because why the hell would I carry those heavy things around in the woods and mountains?) for Waywatchers, and make my core actually Wood Elf. The end result is an even heavier woodland slant I think works for Chrace.

As for "bitching, moaning, and whining about the stagnation of the Warhammer timelines", speak for yourself. I don't buy the "we as a community" business, since that's a blatant generalization that ignores the standpoint of individuals. I've been part of this community for a long time, and I don't remember voting in a poll about the timeline being stagnant or not. I actively dislike when they start cramming in fluff about the different superfriend characters, because they're not my characters. I couldn't care less about Tyrion, Teclis, Malekith, or any other named character because they're not my characters.

Sorry brother, but you started the talk of "community," which by it's definition is a generalization. I simply attempted to continue with your terminology, but perhaps not within the same context. If I in anyway implied you specifically had a problem with the stagnation, I apologize. Making such an insinuation without actually knowing how you had stood on the issue (spoiler: I didn't), would be supremely patronizing. You have to at least give me that there were a significant number of people that disliked the stagnation (and retcon of Storm of Chaos) of Fantasy. It seemed to accompany the release of every Army Book since 8th edition began.

[Baleanoon]

First I've already done: Kurnous and Isha disobeyed him, and being given to Khaine was the punishment.

Second is a matter of relative power - he's weaker than the Chaos Gods and wasn't in a position to do something about it if he wanted to. Of course, that part, like elven souls going to Slaanesh, is an 8E import from 40K where Asuryan was explicitly dead and thus completely unable to do squat.

Ah and you realize that Asuryan never allowed his chosen king to be killed to defeated to the point of death. Phoenix Kings with the will to push on dying under mysterious circumstances, those who let Malekith be living peacefully.

The second is about keeping Khaine on a leash he apparently had no desire or ability to do so. Or poor Vaul? Basically your argument is Asuryan wasn't an ass because he knew he was over matched and then let his kingdom be further weakened by giving his children to his insane brother as punishment and thus increasing the mismatch... Sounds like a man after my own heart.

He chose Malekith and stuck to it, who knows how long 6000 years is to creature like Asuryan. In the William King novels Teclis touches Asuryan and wonders this himself, what is urgent to Teclis might not be in the same time frame as his God. As to the the Elves they do as their God says because they are faithful. I don't know if you were raised in a religious home but real world religions have their people believe far more nonsensical concepts. The Jews wandered for generations and are faithful 3500 years+ later (which is several time more generations than elves would go through).

[radlum]

So for anyone that has the book, are there any restrictions to using HE heroes or lords in DE or WE units? When the book was announced I was expecting some weird Animosity like rules, but I've yet to see any leaks about that kind of restrictions

[Curu Olannon]

No restrictions. See page 30 of this thread for the complete rules.

[radlum]

No restrictions. See page 30 of this thread for the complete rules.

Thanks a lot. Now I'm gonna bring some of my DE with my HE to the next game I have.

I know reaction around here has been slightly negative, but I'm really excited about the changes, fluff and gaming wise.

[Curu Olannon]

Make sure your opponent knows you are playing ET stuff then so he can bring his WoC with Reign of Chaos

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

This topic on warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... BL-authors

has some dates for the possible release of ET part 4 and 5. According to the links provided French amazon has part 4 in April and part 5 in June. However, somebody posted that amazon has them with delay meaning there is a possibility that new books will be released as soon as December 2014 and January 2015.

[Loremaster Avarael]

With the Loremaster now knowing all of the spells of the eight Lores I can't wait to lick the tears from the faces of the Druchii filth.