Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

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Scalenex1
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Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#1 Post by Scalenex1 »

Facts and Rumors

Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos came out at roughly the same time.

Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos have virtually identical lores of Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch.

High Elves are rumored to come out next

High Magic is due for an update.

Lizardmen are rumored to come out shortly there after.

There is already a Lizardmen Storm of Magic spell that is classified as High Magic

Assumption

GW is lazy/efficient and is likely to duplicate new creations again.

Conclusion

Lizardmen and High Elves will both get access to High Magic with differences just barely big enough to warrant selling separate magic cards for both armies.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#2 Post by Rob9 »

Lizards belong in a terrarium...

I missed how they got introduced into the warhammer world. When I was first following warhammer there was no such race and then I stopped following for a while and then when my interest kicked off again I was like WTF?
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#3 Post by Brother Dimetrius »

Possible, in 5th Lizards had access to High Magic.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#4 Post by RogueSun »

This has got to be the most absurd thing I've read on here in a while.

Empire and Vampire counts share nothing. O&G, Tomb Kings and Ogres share nothing either, so why would they be left out? Wood Elves are classified as High Magic as well in Storm of Magic, will they be abandoning the Lore of Athel Loren and adopting High Magic? I think you're reading WAAAAAY too much into something that's not there.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#5 Post by Nopuiiidorl »

Brother Dimetrius wrote:Possible, in 5th Lizards had access to High Magic.
No they didn't.

Besides, I do not find that crossover that stupid. In the same way that HE taught magic to humans and thus we have access to the eight lores of magic, Slann could easily have access to lots of book lores PLUS some of the spells of high magic, for it represents the magic in its purest nature, and the Slann are the best magicians in the world. In game terms, just sharing a couple of spells.

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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#6 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Rumour wise, Lizardmen are scheduled for August.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#7 Post by Silver »

6th ed Slann could use High Magic.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#8 Post by RedAl »

I was positive Lizardmen had access to High Magic in a previous edition, was it 6th edition maybe? I could well be wrong.

Either way I have nothing in principle with Lizardmen having access to High Magic as well. That said I think it would be the lazy way for GW to go and would do more make Lizardmen feel totally unique and special for them to have their own lore even if it arguably make Slann even better (although in truth their power comes from their disciplines and those definitely need some refining).

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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

My WE lvl 4 regularly used High Magic in 4th edition. Weren't the Slann fluffed somewhere to be the teachers of the first elves? Plus there was a rumour earlier on this thread that High Magic would become more powerful (bloody hell!) and we would be top dogs here until Lizardmen who would share some of it and surpass us.

Lizardmen were in early editions, they had a Regiment of Renown. Slann were in as a separate race until 3rd edition I think. Both disappeared in 4th but came together with the first Lizardman army book in 5th.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#10 Post by draxynnic »

Slann certainly had access to High Magic in the edition that had Lizardmen and Bretonnians as the armies that came in the box, before the big reboot edition that replaced all the armies with the Ravening Hordes list.

Fluffwise, any form of magic that combines multiple lores of magic in a harmonius manner (as opposed to Dark magic that just smooshes them together) is high magic - this likely includes the Lore of Athel Loren (although that's mostly a blend of Life and Beasts) and, likely, the Slann geomancy. I think the Slann also had access to Drain Magic in the Lizardmen book before the current one, although otherwise they were limited to the regular lores (although in that edition, they weren't limited to picking a single one).

As SpellArcher says, the Slann have been fluffed as the original teachers of the elves, but it's also been fluffed that in some aspects of magic, the Asur outstripped their teachers (the Vortex, for instance, is referred to as a use by the Elves of magic that the Slann 'could not or would not use'). As a result, I'd say that the Asur certainly probably still have the most talent with High Magic - keep in mind, after all, that even if the Slann have the same ability to use High Magic as the High Elves, even the oldest Loremaster is still thousands of years younger than the youngest Slann.

Games Workshop does seem to have wised up a little to releasing armies using similar mechanics at roughly the same time (consider also the rumour that all of the elven army books are to be expected within a couple of years) and Lizardmen releasing so soon after High Elves is a break from the usual schedule - if that is genuine, then I really wouldn't be surprised if the reason is because there's something being shared between the two books.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

That's true. While elves are less progressive than humans they are more so than Slann.

So I guess while Slann may surpass our AM's in power there should be some things we still di better than them.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#12 Post by Eirik »

It makes sense to me for Slaan and HE to have a magic list in common. High magic is the High-Elf interpretation of a real thing in the warhammer universe; it's not completely arbitrary or made up. High magic exists independantly of either Slaan or High Elves. It would be cool for them to have the same lore, with perhaps a few differences between the books. Maybe the same 6 spells but a different #0 spell.

I'm all for blending armies, and surprised it doesn't happen more often. I'm still wondering why I can't take a unit of empire halberdiers for core, we fight alongside them all the fluffing time, and it sure would be nice to have some disposable humans in my army.

I think the wood elves high magic would, as mentioned above, focus more on the life/beast aspects and therefore be different.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

After Storm of Chaos in 6th, GW felt book cross-over was getting out of hand. So they tightened everything up and split Chaos armies back into three distinct lists again for example. Probably to try to balance the game. Only the 7ed books scuppered that.big time.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#14 Post by NightHawk45 »

eriktheguy wrote: all the fluffing time
Well done sir.

I wouldn't find it too odd, if Lizardmen could use High Magic. Kinda weird, but as others have said Slann were the ones to teach the high elves their magic
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#15 Post by Eirik »

SpellArcher wrote:After Storm of Chaos in 6th, GW felt book cross-over was getting out of hand. So they tightened everything up and split Chaos armies back into three distinct lists again for example. Probably to try to balance the game. Only the 7ed books scuppered that.big time.
But WoC still get's a demons (prince, new mounts) and beasts (new chariot). Maybe that's an indication that crossovers are back "in".

How crazy is it to let HE take a regiment of core empire infantry? I know GW would sell me some models if it happened.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#16 Post by Scalenex1 »

Along the lines of similar things happening at the same time, I also believe that High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen are the three armies most likely to get a Sea Creature. The two elf armies are maritime powers and Lizardmen and water dinosaurs are about the only major dino type they are missing. I find it odd that they put a rule for that in the BRB and not one army has access to any Sea Creatures yet (not counting the Forge World book with one entry).

Because Sea Creature is a BRB rule, there would be no reason to release the army books with Sea Creatures consecutively though.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Daemonic creatures are still in Warriors because stripping them out just sucks out character from the army. If you want as close as you can get to the old mixed armies, Warriors are the way to go. Though they have had issues keeping Daemonic Instability to Daemons book only.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#18 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

SpellArcher wrote:After Storm of Chaos in 6th, GW felt book cross-over was getting out of hand. So they tightened everything up and split Chaos armies back into three distinct lists again for example. Probably to try to balance the game. Only the 7ed books scuppered that.big time.
While I agree with you, I suspect it had more to do with profits..
3x the books = 3x the profit, for Army Books anyway.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#19 Post by draxynnic »

That may be a little cynical. 6th edition still managed to squeeze out two books, after all, so they could easily make it three if they wanted to and still allow the books to work together...
Scalenex1 wrote:Along the lines of similar things happening at the same time, I also believe that High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen are the three armies most likely to get a Sea Creature. The two elf armies are maritime powers and Lizardmen and water dinosaurs are about the only major dino type they are missing. I find it odd that they put a rule for that in the BRB and not one army has access to any Sea Creatures yet (not counting the Forge World book with one entry).

Because Sea Creature is a BRB rule, there would be no reason to release the army books with Sea Creatures consecutively though.
Dark elves definitely - canonically, the majority of their fleet (beneath the Black Arks, of course) is built on the backs of tamed sea monsters. High Elves don't go to that extent, but there is precedent with the Merwyrm.

Lizardmen... I don't recall any mention of them using sea creatures, and they've never had a fleet to go off. (relying on magic or simple swimming to get to where they want to go). Sea creatures... actually seem a little unlikely, as the water "dinosaurs" (technically speaking, neither ichthyosaurs or plesiosaurs are even part of Archosauria) are likely to be unwieldy on land to an extent well beyond the Sea Creature rule. Lizardmen in other settings often have a relationship with turtles, though, so some kind of turtle unit may apply - although it would be questionable whether there's sufficient distinction from Stegadons to really be worth it.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#20 Post by Eirik »

Asurion Whitestar wrote: While I agree with you, I suspect it had more to do with profits..
3x the books = 3x the profit, for Army Books anyway.
Would that have any effect though? The limiting factor for the number of new army books being printed is time, not the number of armies.

Or did they release several chaos army books at once? If so I'm betting a lot of people would have bought all 3.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#21 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Scalenex1 wrote:Along the lines of similar things happening at the same time, I also believe that High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen are the three armies most likely to get a Sea Creature. The two elf armies are maritime powers and Lizardmen and water dinosaurs are about the only major dino type they are missing. I find it odd that they put a rule for that in the BRB and not one army has access to any Sea Creatures yet (not counting the Forge World book with one entry).

Because Sea Creature is a BRB rule, there would be no reason to release the army books with Sea Creatures consecutively though.
I kind of wonder if they don't have some sort of campaign/expansion book planned that will make extensive use of boats and sea creatures. It's just not all that likely to come into play very often in "normal" warhammer.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#22 Post by Brother Dimetrius »

Nopuiiidorl wrote:
Brother Dimetrius wrote:Possible, in 5th Lizards had access to High Magic.
No they didn't.
If you weren't around at the time, check your facts before arguing.

5th edition magic supplement, page 15. High Magic was available to High Elves, Lizardmen and Wood Elf Wizard Lords.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#23 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Brother Dimetrius wrote:
Nopuiiidorl wrote:
Brother Dimetrius wrote:Possible, in 5th Lizards had access to High Magic.
No they didn't.
If you weren't around at the time, check your facts before arguing.

5th edition magic supplement, page 15. High Magic was available to High Elves, Lizardmen and Wood Elf Wizard Lords.
Even if you were it's worth a check, my memory isn't 100% accurate when I go back that far.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#24 Post by Brother Dimetrius »

True, that's why I dug it up from my archives :D
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#25 Post by Scalenex1 »

According to the leak of what's in the book, the High magic spells have non-elfy names. That is further evidence that High Magic is not going to be just for elves.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#26 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Rob9 wrote:Lizards belong in a terrarium...

I missed how they got introduced into the warhammer world. When I was first following warhammer there was no such race and then I stopped following for a while and then when my interest kicked off again I was like WTF?
Not sure how I missed this earlier, but really? Lizards have been around since the start. They just decided to take 4th and most of 5th off.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#27 Post by draxynnic »

By my understanding, though, they had entirely different fluff in previous editions. The lizardmen as we know them today are very different from the separate races of lizardmen and slann from Warhammer's beginnings.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#28 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

draxynnic wrote:By my understanding, though, they had entirely different fluff in previous editions. The lizardmen as we know them today are very different from the separate races of lizardmen and slann from Warhammer's beginnings.
I don't know about entirely. There have been big changes though, but then again there have been a lot of big changes since back then. Seen any Bret cannons or crossbows lately?
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#29 Post by draxynnic »

From what I've read, the slann were the closest in that they had similar fluff - however, they were a regular race of humanoid amphibians including soldiers and Cold One cavalry rather than being the bloated mage-toads carried everywhere on palanquins we've seen since 5th. The lizardmen were originally an entirely separate group with no relation to the slann, while the slann themselves had the pygmies and amazons mentioned in the Lustria fluff as allies.
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Re: Speculation, Lizardmen/High Elf crossover

#30 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

draxynnic wrote:From what I've read, the slann were the closest in that they had similar fluff - however, they were a regular race of humanoid amphibians including soldiers and Cold One cavalry rather than being the bloated mage-toads carried everywhere on palanquins we've seen since 5th. The lizardmen were originally an entirely separate group with no relation to the slann, while the slann themselves had the pygmies and amazons mentioned in the Lustria fluff as allies.
That's pretty much right. It's been far to long (and neither was one of my armies) for me to remember all the finer details.
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