Observations on High Elven Wargaming

[Lethalis]

I don't have a High Elves book in front of me but I'm suspicious of the legality of that list.

[Musashi]

Round one

Forces of <Chaos>RBTs and cannons spread evenly along the edge.

Nothing much happened in the magic phase, and slight casualties as Beorg and Long Drong were hit by orc stone thrower.

Cautious or almost no movement by the forces of light, except most to give LOS to the warmachines.

Teclis misjudged distance by fraction over 24. AM succeeded in Drain Magic.

Currently shooting phase Orc general dead.

[Musashi]

Round two

Stopped making diagrams in the middle of this round, as 8000 points really too complex.

Orc player succeeded in >IF movement spell and attacked Dragon Mage, who,s dead. Dragon fled, and could not be rallied. Run over into Spears with AM, Spears reconfigured themselves previously into 3332. Orc Biguns countercharged by another Spear unit in the flank. Won and Big Uns fled. Suppressed AM-Spears, let flanking unit pursue. Big Uns reached river and drowned. Pursuing unit to act as speed bump to Orc Chariots.

AM miscast with thre ones, lost life, spell and one level. Teclis wasted Fury of Khaine on Orc Chariot. Tyrion and BSB-unit moved within 12 inches of combat, just in case.

Cannons continue to seriously deplete enemy elite units.

Archaon on the right side of the table no threat to Elven castle, Dispel dice control majority of enemy magic phase, allowing Teclis to attempt damage spells.

Extreme left Dwarfs destroy Gor herd and wizard, by pass Arcahon and Swords. Centre in dispute.

Game continues tomorrow.

[draxynnic]

I don't have a High Elves book in front of me but I'm suspicious of the legality of that list.

It looks to me like a 50/50 split between a High Elf list and a Dogs of War list - which is perfectly legal if the game allows allies (which it apparently does, as his opponent seems to be Chaos & Orcs). I think it's even technically a list with no associated downsides, although the Dwarves and possibly the Bearmen should have issues about fighting alongside High Elves even if the army as a whole doesn't.

[Musashi]

Game notes:
>It's 2 against 2.
>For those wondering why I took Tyrion along, he was insurance in case of enemy breakthroughs, since I only trust the mercs to hold up our opponents, not actually dominate any part of the field.
>Convinced the merc player to build a strong defensive infantry line on right of centre, behind a wall, and promptly hid most of my forces behind there
>The table is packed tightly, so cannons can be devastating; while sniping unseen targets is cheating, estimating 4" in front of directly in line of seen ones is not; to be fair the orc general could be seen in wildboar cavalry unit and fluffed look out sir.
>Archaon has survived three cannonballs, his two out of three lifesavers didn't; on a side note, I think it was a mistake to deploy him in the forest
>Dwarves are wonderful to anchor flanks; too bad we can't persuade them to work for us
>Enemy down to Archaon and one wizard, NG MShaman, WO MShaman, and two NG Shamans, can afford not to cast Drain Magic
>With three enemy movement phases remaining (currently on third magic phase), no existential threat against bulk of Elven forces
>Would have been forced to concentrate artillery fire against Goblin Doom Diver, if deployed on a hill.

............Forest...............................House
_______________________________________________




Hill..........................................................River...Ford...River...Bridge...




___________________________________________________
.......................Gia...GiaAlmVolu???GolgBeoLDP.w a l l l l l l...........HESPR
Dwarf.......................................................... 12Dwarvesxb..........AM
20gw............................................................................HESPR
........MM.....................................................SmSmSm.....BPgCaTl......can
.............MM...................................................................SPgPgPg..rbt
..................MM.............................................HESPRTy......PgPgPg.....DM

[Lethalis]

I don't have a High Elves book in front of me but I'm suspicious of the legality of that list.

It looks to me like a 50/50 split between a High Elf list and a Dogs of War list - which is perfectly legal if the game allows allies (which it apparently does, as his opponent seems to be Chaos & Orcs). I think it's even technically a list with no associated downsides, although the Dwarves and possibly the Bearmen should have issues about fighting alongside High Elves even if the army as a whole doesn't.

I think I missed the 'Allies' bit.

I also think I missed where this thread became eligible to spam battle reports in. Must be a lack of sleep or something.

[Musashi]

I write terrible battle reports, and lose interest half way through, which would be a disservice for anyone expecting a nice, neat, detailed one. I work better at analysis.

Spamming is a lot easier than trying to make a point, or possibly several points, in a single thread.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Spamming is a lot easier than trying to make a point, or possibly several points, in a single thread.

After trying to slog through this post, I have to say you've summed it up nicely.

[Musashi]

Round Three

More fighting takes place. I view with misgivings my partner, who would qualify for DUI. His troops manage to win some combats. Archaon inches closer from the left and screens with spawns.

A NG MShaman and a Wizard miscast, each lose one wound, but nothing much happens. Except the Wizard dies in combat and the MShaman dies from hit by Hot Pot.

Archmage miscasts again and has a change of address to the Abyss. Big Orc regiment recipient of FOTP. One cannon blows, another won't shooting for a while. Lack of LOS due to mess of units in the centre interferes with RBT concentrated fire. A few units lose some models.

Unhappy with current flow of battle, chance of minor loss. Should be noted, it's my partner's second or third battle with pure DOW.

[Musashi]

Reflections on the Game so far.

1. Enemy magic, with the one IF movement on the Dragon has been neutralized. He actually needed a twelve with two dice and got it.

2. Dragon Mage should have had support in some form, I just wanted to get him in range to spread terror among the O&G, slight miscalculation. Support could have come in the form of Chariots.

3. Had a choice between Sword Masters and Dragon Boyz - went for Sword Masters because of the lack of space in deployment zone, also I wasn't going to commit Tyrion or any other Prince in what was likely going to be a massacre, assuming frontage could have been found in the middle.

4. Option I neglected were 2 Tiranoc Chariots instead, narrow frontage and could have been committed to support anywhere on the table.

5. 8000 points becomes fairly crowded - I deliberately chose a river and placed it on one edge, creating chokepoints at the bridge and the ford; from the 4 chariots the enemy had milling around at his east end, only one has managed to come across.

6. Despite losing the Dragon Mage and Archmage, fairly confident that with Teclis plus mage will continue to neutralize opponent's magic phase. Side note: MShaman lost ability to cast Waagh due to Teclis scroll.

7. Lack of magic users on enemy' side must be because of High Elven dominance in Magic Phase - may change strategy next game if allies more reliable.

[Musashi]

Rounds Four and Five

Decided to conclude game at this point, since there was a movement to start perfecting 2K lists with a view to a tournament.

Chaos hordes engulfed the left flank and wiped it almost clean of DoW units, two remained to contest those two table quarters. Archaon came within 16" of Tyrion and saved against 2 single RBT shots.

The central infantry line held and pushed back the orcs, DoW cavalry totally wiped out.

My quarter was ethnically cleansed of the Orcs that managed to come over and got 100 points free and clear for that (it should be noted that 100 points in a 8000 point game go a lot less far than some may think). The fourth quarter was also disputed.

Magic phase dominated by Drain Magic again, and nothing much happened. Some more wizards exploded - I forget.

Both sides had losses between 3600 to 3800 and it was a draw. If my two Mages had more luck we would have won on points, since they were worth 800 points. I recall my total being 1495.

Reflections on Game

We could have dominated and broken through the centre, if I had changed my troop mix to contain 1-2 cavalry units and committed Tyrion and the BSB. While I have used elements like Volund and Al Muktar in previous lists and understand how to utilize them, I didn't trust my partner to and since I take playing HE rather seriously, had no plans for letting them get humiliated, wasn't about to let them die through either bad luck or tactical miscalculation.

Killing the Orc general was crucial to our success in the middle, as Wild Boar squadron and Black Orc regiment was panicked and/or ran from combat, which made holding the centre and grinding down other regiments a lot more easier.

Chokepoints forced the enemy to squash together and away from the bastion I decided to deploy the majority of my forces on, allowing me to deal with the enemy forces that did manage to penetrate my quarter piecemeal.

[draxynnic]

My quarter was ethnically cleansed of the Orcs that managed to come over and got 100 points free and clear for that (it should be noted that 100 points in a 8000 point game go a lot less far than some may think). The fourth quarter was also disputed.

This makes me think that perhaps for such large games, non-casualty victory point rewards should be scaled according to the size of the game. Call table quarters 5% of the total - this makes them worth 100 points in a 2000 point game (which seems to be what a lot of these things are calibrated for) but would make them worth 400 points each in an 8000 point game - still not huge, but at least a little more likely to make a difference.

[Musashi]

I thought my response to one post was pretty good, so I'm reprinting it below.

What follows are my personal opinions:

1. We pay a helluvalot for our Mages; we are told the costs are justified due to their capabilities; we are also informed we are the masters of magic.

2. TK have a limited lore but no miscast; Slann have no miscasts, can choose from multiple lores and dirt cheap assistants/homunculus; Dark Elves could potentially overpower the magic phase and a dirt cheap artifact that makes magicking them directly risky; Vampires have an overwhelming Magic phase by default; Chaos have overwhelming lores and Special Characters, and the Staff of Change.

3. Conclusion, High Elves cannot win by attempting to dominate the Magic phase, except by utilizing almost all characters slots by purchasing Mages, a mechanism that has inherent risks for High Elves; therefore, if we cannot dominate this phase, we must neutralize our opponents' usage of it.

4. High Elves have an average Toughness, but a high model cost, which tends to preclude expendable troops to be thrown into battle. Nor do they have above average protection, with the exception of the Phoenix Guard, Dragon Princes and possibly Silver Helms.

5. Anvils are expected to be used in a form of specific attritional warfare, which means average to heavy losses should be expected per combat phase. They are also attractive and vulnerable to war-machines and ranged weapons. This tends to preclude massing Sword Masters. Which leaves us with White Lions, Phoenix Guard and Spears.

6. Spears are core and our cheapest model, which means we can afford to rank them up. Plus they can deliver 2-3 ranks of attacks. Unfortunately, they are all strength 3, which can cut it against lightly armoured, average toughness units, but not against anything else without additional investment in the form of characters and/or magic buffing.

7. Phoenix Guard have a high leadership, Cause Fear and a Ward Save 4+. A single rank strength 4 attacks, a little under-powered, and under-armoured. They can't dish it out, but they can take it, and against most opponents, probably win if buffed up by a suitable character and sufficient numbers.

8. White Lions are stubborn, have a high resistance to ranged weapons but vulnerable to war-machines. They can also march through forests. They are under-armoured and deliver a single rank of strength 6 attacks, which deters expensive cavalry, but not inexpensive troops delivering multiple attacks.

9. The choice of Anvil(s) depend on the primary strike forces you expect to be facing. It's pointless to field more than one Spear anvil in a game.


Received another summons from my group and they plan a 3 x3000 game, though I suspect there will be insufficient players and one side will have 4K and 5K armies. Suspect that a Dark Elf raiding force is on the horizon, and I doubt eternal hatred bodes well against High Elven troops, so either plan to ally with them (their owner and I tend to be compatible on tactics and doctrine) or deploy away from them, if not.

If I field a 3K army, it will be heavy on support and include two mini RDF and a mage bunker/anvil, or if it's 4K, I'll be forced to include a heavy strike force for appearances' sake.


I tend to operate under a number of handicaps, some self-inflicted.

My group plays extreme hardball. The guy who plays Chaos plays Chaos because he want to crush you underfoot, hear the lamentations of your women, et cetera. He borrowed my High Elves once while partially unsober, and hadn't figured out that they were rapiers, not a morningstar. I was highly surprised when I noted that a gunline of Archers were holding the middle (but they weren't for long).

I play herohammer, partially for their abilities as well as to use up points. Since in multiplayer games I prefer to take the backseat and see how the game progresses, I don't create blitz forces, but emphasize heavily on support. As mentioned in other threads, I believe that the law of diminishing returns veers explosively once you have three Archmages on the field, exception Slann and TK, because the Magic Phase is inherently risky enough without pushing it, or other armies taking along artifacts that neutralize and punish your strongest advantage.

If I'm playing solo, I have to balance between defence, attack, shooting and magic, while when I'm playing as part of a team, I concentrate on the shooting and magic phases (basically I instruct others that unless there's an artifact we need which requires an Archmage, to only bring along scroll caddies). This cuts down on the risk of miscasts, allows them to concentrate on melee and/or shooting.

Armies with cheap spell-casters and buffs can afford to spend points on them. For us with our continually diminishing dominance, it becomes a luxury.

Selection of characters depend on your opponent's army and his usual mode of operation, and your strategy of dealing with him. In my opinion, High Elves have only three fundamental avenues of approach.

1. Blitzing - at 2K tournaments this is a proven concept, and you can check out the list posted somewhere on the forum; to sum up, Star Dragon, 10 DPs, BSB/World Dragon, Lion Chariot, and support. 1 scroll caddy. Blitzing requires immediate contact with the enemy on preferably favourable terms, and a major destruction of his combat ability and disruption of his line, hopefully killing his mages early on. The scroll caddy concentrates on dispelling spells that have a critical effect on the unprotected strike units, basically the Star Dragon. If all goes well, the scroll caddy is all you need for the game.

2. This scales up very well, since High Elves can concentrate their points a lot easier than other armies can, at one or two points and choose where they wish to breakthrough. We don't need to try and decimate the enemy with magic, just prevent him from doing the same to us. RBTs can soften up selected assault targets or discourage a similar assault planned on our lines.

3. Castling - terrain placement critical to create blindspots to hide from the enemy's war-machines and ranged weapons, and to funnel his assault forces into killing zones. Because there's a time lag, you have time to pepper them with missiles and magic, and since survival will depend on the enemy either not reaching you or decimated/destroyed on route, at 2-4K you can risk filling up the ranks with Mages with destructive spells, and one Archmage as reserve to decide between casting Drain Magic or something more immediate. At 2K I'd select at least a BSB to act as part of the Anvil to absorb the assault of a decimated attack force, or pre-emptively counter-attack an obviously weakened one, to keep them away from the war machines and the mages. The longer the enemy takes to reach you, the more time you have to destroy him. Flyers should be destroyed ASAP. You could give the BSB Reaver's Bow, so that he could make himself useful while you wait.

4. Cannae - delay selected enemy units, entice in specific ones into your centre. Attack on three sides. Formulas vary. It's such a delicate balance between various factors that only Hannibal would get it right each time.

To sum up, BSB required; scroll caddy required for blitzing, possibly for castling; 1-2 attack mages required for castling; Archmage required for castling; Prince required for blitzing; Dragon Mage required for fun.

Tip - you may want to establish a separate bastion from the castle for mutual fire support.

At this level, if you're worried purely for magic defence, you can take along Caradryan, a mage with Annulian Crystal, Banner of Arcane Protection and Amulet of Fire. Dispel scrolls are insurance with a certainty of success, but limited. Magic Resistance are local in effect, but a bottomless well of dice. Mages are flexible, in the sense that if their spells don't need to be used for defence, they can buff up units or inflict damage.

It's Saturday, and I tend to ramble anyway.

[Musashi]

Tyrion
Teclis
Caradryan
BSB DASh BESt la LB BB
Dragon Mage SW 2xDS

3 x 10 Archers
1 x 7 DP ToL SoB FC
1 x 21 PG FC Skeinsliver BoS
1 x Lion Chariot
1 x Tiranoc Chariot

All or Nothing (well almost)

Allied with Dwarves


King Oathstone, MRuneASF, Strength, Snorri, MRuneTough, Stone, Shield
Demonslayer, MRuneDamage, S5x2str, +1I
Thane BSB, March,MRuneFear,Guard5+save
Thane, GW, Sh, MruneKragg, S5x2str, Anger, Stone
Runesmith, Sh, 3DSrune
Runesmith, Sh, 1DSrune, MRuneBalance

15 Clan Warriors FC, Sh
15 Longbeards, GW, FC, +1 CR
16 Muskets, M
16 Quarrelers, GW, M
20 Ironbreakers, FC, Slow rune
20 Hammer Carriers, FC, +1 CR, x2model number
1 Bolt Thrower, Machinist/Musket, +2S, always shoot
1 Bolt Thrower, Machinist/Musket, +1S, MRune Sacrifice, Fire
1 Organ Cannon




Versus Chaos and Dark Elves

3K each

Gave up at the end of the third round. While I managed to dominate the left flank, the Dawrf player did not manage to support me sufficiently leaving Tyrion and the Dragon Princes exposed to three RBTs after destroying Chaos Chosen Warriors and not impacting into the Chaos Knights and General as originally planned. The Dark Elves with their Black Guard and fully equipped general managed to hold up and destroy, with support the centre held by the Dwarves.

Lesson, it was an interesting experience. Once DE forces start huddling around a specific centre, the chances are fairly good that the Ring of Hotek is in the middle. The magic phase was not a problem. Shadowblade was, but decided to destroy Dwarven warmachines. Phoenix Guard did not manage to kill Cold One cavalry, unfortunately, though neither did they succeed either.

Chariots are a veritable threat to either Chaos and DE and they decided to try and take them out. Must remember to bring 2 units of Shadow Warriors next time.

Dwarves have a real problem with DE, or at least the configuration used in this game. My feeling is that the Dwarf player spread himself out too much, and that I should have actually concentrated my forces on the other flank, but on the whole, cannot rely on Dwarves to keep up with Elves.

If I ever have an alliance with them again, at 3K I will bring along more Chariots and give up Cavalry.

[Musashi]

More Reflections on Game

The game was lost probably by not taking into account the new realities created by WoC and DE books. I probably could have crushed completely my flank (which I separated from the rest of the field with a lake and a forest) if my Tiranoc Chariot hadn't been shot to pieces and I didn't divert the Lion Chariot to support the middle.

Shadowblade was annoying as always, and justifies the use of a Dragon Mage to guard the rear area (mine was on the other flank attempting to sow terror, which was partially successful, but seems to have been really needed closer to the main force). Tricky part would be the placement of RBTs so that it would be difficult to overrun without getting exposed to the DM.

16 Muskets on a hill and another 16 crossbowmen on the bottom was an impressive sight, but once the battle begun, they had no effect on the outcome. My ten man Archer could wheel and fire, but T3 arrows aren't that devastating.

Dragon Princes are not that invulnerable, and AS1+ would be nice for at least one unit, now that Chaos armour seems to be general issue. Tyrion and company have no problem chopping through opposition, and ASF was actually not required, but bloody vulnerable to war-machines.

My plan fell apart like Schlieffen's, insufficient support, diversion of assets, upset time table, attrition and a plan that required a certain sequence of events. There's no doubt I would have steamrolled into Chaos Knights, sorcerers and the RBTs, but I didn't. With the destruction of the centre, the best I could have achieved would be a draw, but decided not to chance the free Chaos Knights attacking the PGs (still locked in combat with the Cold Ones) and the DPs (just overrun into one Chaos sorcerer instead of the Knights) exposed to 18 RBT bolts.

Oh, apparently Dark Elves hate Dwarves a lot.

[draxynnic]

1. We pay a helluvalot for our Mages; we are told the costs are justified due to their capabilities; we are also informed we are the masters of magic.

In a nutshell, I think that's probably the main problem with Elves in general and High Elves in particular. Our mages are supposed to be among the best, but cost so much we can't actually dominate the magic phase because the opposing army can afford to generate power dice more cheaply... oh, and our +1 to dispel doesn't stack (except in that more dice = more attempts to dispel). Our archers are supposed to be among the best, but we pay through the nose for them so they remain subpar in efficiency (DEs escape this with RCs, especially now they have AP on top, while WEs are a little better off with Glade Guard Longbows and no penalty for moving and firing, but HEs get nothing). At least in close combat this allows us to concentrate points in ways that counterbalances the tendency for cheap quantity to be more efficient than fragile quality.

Received another summons from my group and they plan a 3 x3000 game, though I suspect there will be insufficient players and one side will have 4K and 5K armies. Suspect that a Dark Elf raiding force is on the horizon, and I doubt eternal hatred bodes well against High Elven troops, so either plan to ally with them (their owner and I tend to be compatible on tactics and doctrine) or deploy away from them, if not.

Wait, what?

[Musashi]

1. We pay a helluvalot for our Mages; we are told the costs are justified due to their capabilities; we are also informed we are the masters of magic.

In a nutshell, I think that's probably the main problem with Elves in general and High Elves in particular. Our mages are supposed to be among the best, but cost so much we can't actually dominate the magic phase because the opposing army can afford to generate power dice more cheaply... oh, and our +1 to dispel doesn't stack (except in that more dice = more attempts to dispel). Our archers are supposed to be among the best, but we pay through the nose for them so they remain subpar in efficiency (DEs escape this with RCs, especially now they have AP on top, while WEs are a little better off with Glade Guard Longbows and no penalty for moving and firing, but HEs get nothing). At least in close combat this allows us to concentrate points in ways that counterbalances the tendency for cheap quantity to be more efficient than fragile quality.

The WoC AB arrived n the date of this match, and was taken under the loop yesterday. The characters are over the top, and would require committing specially crafted combat heroes/lords to neutralize them, who have to kill them in the first round, or they are toast. Even partial exploitation of the WoC magic options would allow them to dominate their opponents. 15 points for a Chaos Warrior with 2A, T4, S4, AS 4+ and EOTG against Sword Masters 2A, T3, S3, AS5 and ASF? Our next AB better allow Dragon Princes an upgrade for their mounts to Drakes, and Sword Masters to start having semi-mystical martial arts capabilities. In deference to kittiphiles, White Lions may have Killing Blow.

Received another summons from my group and they plan a 3 x3000 game, though I suspect there will be insufficient players and one side will have 4K and 5K armies. Suspect that a Dark Elf raiding force is on the horizon, and I doubt eternal hatred bodes well against High Elven troops, so either plan to ally with them (their owner and I tend to be compatible on tactics and doctrine) or deploy away from them, if not.

Wait, what?

We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.

[Musashi]

The Complete Seer Council

Teclis

Archmage 4th Level
Book of Hoeth

Archmage 4th Level
Vortex Splinter
Dispel Scroll

Mage 2nd Level
Annulian Crystal
Gem of Courage

Mage 2nd Level
Trickster's Pendant
Dispel Scroll

Mage 2nd Level
Staff of Sorcery

Mage 2nd Level
Ring of Corin
Seerstaff of Saphery

Dragon Mage 2nd Level
Silver Wand
Ring of Fury

[GobbladasSquig]

Hey Strategydude, where's the Jewel of the Dusk? I'd also probably include Sigil of Asuryan over Staff of Sorcery.

[Musashi]

You don't need it, since the idea is to shut down your opponent's magic phase. It's an intellectual exercise. The three Archmages, Mage/TP-DS, Mage/DS-DS or DM/SW-DS-DS are sufficient.

The list included bound items which benefit from Drain Magic. If High Elves had access to more bound items, I'd include them to.

Small print: strategy not guaranteed against Tomb Kings.

[GobbladasSquig]

Fair enough, though I'd say Scroll of Hoeth and Sigil of Asuryan would go a long way in shutting the opponent's magic phase. Also, three archmages with a combined 15 dispel scrolls would be relatively hard core too.

[Musashi]

Well, assuming your force is facing 3 Archwizards and 3 Wizards - would it matter if you destroyed one of eighteen spells? Or wouldn't you rather that your opponent attempts it at complexity +6 again? The chances of miscast become interestingly high, especially if your opponent knows he has to roll twice on the table. You could argue the merits of a 50% chance of destroying that spell, but at a certain level, your opponent can more readily compensate for the loss of that spell.

Hence, my preference is for two Dispel Scrolls.

[GobbladasSquig]

Alright, I accept that in the grand scheme of things (especially in 4k and above) removing one spell might not be all end all. But in 2000 points, Teclis + Sigil of Asuryan is IMO a viable tactic.

Ok, so what's your take on the scroll heap setup?

[Musashi]

2000 points puts us in an interesting position, since you have to commit either to a primarily magic strategy, or a strike force. If you are facing two spellcasters, removing the one spell that would damage you the most is certainly a great tactic, because another dynamic is in play; as spells have to be assigned openly, you could neuter a wizard if he only had one useful one.

Drain magic increases complexity - each successful casting of it requires that your opponent uses one more die per spell. This is not a guarantee that your opponent will fail, it just increases the chance.

Since we don't have to invest in more than the minimal number of Mages, because we don't have to overwhelm the enemy in the Magic Phase, we can invest the rest in units and combat characters.

Opponents will succeed in casting spells, and depending on the spell's effects on the game, and the number needed to dispel it, it may be wiser to use a Dispel Scroll, just to be sure.

Which is why from the viewpoint of the points involved, 40, it seems less risky to take two Dispel Scrolls to one which has only a 50% chance of destroying a spell. Teclis's doesn't count, since it's part of his equipment.

At 2000 points, a fast strike force would probably only need a single scroll caddy, before running down one of the enemy's spellcasters.

I just reread the above, I think I veered off course somewhere. Does it answer your question?

[Musashi]

HIGH ELVEN CORE

We have three core units, and with the exception of Spear Elves, it's always a struggle to try and fit them into your Order of Battle.

If LSG had been given Longbows and made two points more expensive, they would have been an automatic selection for at least one slot, since they would have been ideal to guard one quarter, or march forward and dispute another. The range of the longbow would have been sufficient to annoy most opponents, and yet not make them feel endangered enough to make the LSG a priority to eliminate, which can be both good and bad, depending on whether your other forces need relieving. At the same time, your opponent would know they weren't easy meat, and would have to invest at least 150%-200% more points to ensure that any forces he sends would eliminate that unit.

I certainly would like to see the longbow as an upgrade possibility for the LSG in the next edition, and make them more generic, since there are probably marines from other provinces fulfilling the same function.

Archers are annoyingly overpriced and fail to accomplish much. You get some decent results shooting low armoured average toughness troops, and shooting at under-ranged missile troops, but most opponents are wise to these tactics, and either ignore them, send a fast force to suppress them or shoot back. It's tough to justify giving them light armour, and the only luxury you'd give them is a musician, on the off-chance that you think fleeing might be a good idea. I used to take along one unit when playing against Dwarves and annoy the heck out of them by deploying them just out of range of their Thunderers. Experienced Dwarven players know to take along at least one formation of quarrelers. Crossbow troops do not bode well for our Archers, whether Dwarven, Elven or human. Against the tree-huggers you can leave them at home.

While our longbows could do with improved effects and penetration, I think most players would be satisfied with getting massed archery, and a drop in cost.

On the whole, Spears do what you want them to, and ASF ensures that they at least get a chance to strike the enemy, before getting attritioned. Making them a point cheaper would have been at 8 points per model would have actually reflected their actual cost valuation. I have never felt that more than one large Phalanx was necessary, with any additional Spear units being minimum with a Champion and a Musician, providing additional frontage to the primary unit as needed.

Spear Elves could have had a Heavy Armour upgrade option, as they are expected to bear the brunt (in the fluff) of the close quarters fighting, which Marines and Archers wouldn't be wearing due to their circumstances, which required a deal of flexibility.

What we are missing in the Core selections are skirmishers and cavalry. Skirmishers could have been an upgrade option for Light Armoured troops, and cavalry could have been customizable Silver Helms. As the designers wanted High Elven Armies to revolve around their Infantry Core, any skirmishing and mounted units would not have counted towards minimum Core.

First Among Equals could have been improved to allow the unit to bear a 50-point banner and the champion to have a magic item allowance of 25 points. He might also have a slight boost in stats, reflecting their semi-elite nature.

[Musashi]

Not much happened during this week, Warhammer-wise, and I decided to take a step back from the usual squabbling.

While I enjoy some of it, and have to admit I do it mainly for the entertainment value, it can be tiresome, especially when you get the strong suspicion that your counterparts aren't in the same frame of mind.

At one point, I was quite surprised to discover my main character's Caledorian roots, since that came about by accident. I prefer a seaside locale, and was under the mistaken impression that he came from Lothern, that is, until I noticed all those slurs on Caledor and no one actually springing up in their defence. This seemed unjust, especially as they provide the two hardest hitting units in our list, Dragons and Dragon Princes.

I considered the situation, and as I was familiar with spectacular mountain scenery, forested hillsides and streams gushing down stony mountain vales, it didn't seem a stretch. Plus having volcanoes in the neighbourhood would make you cautious and foresighted, by default, and ready to take action by necessity.

My main character is supposedly an Archmage with combat abilities, and I do believe that I rank third in seniority in Milliardo's Mage Knight scroll. One problem I had was trying to figure out both a bodyguard and a strike force around him.

The various bodyguards I came up with were Sword Masters, Phoenix Guards, Lothern Sea Guard (modified), Shadow Warriors and human Samurai. I even considered human Valkyries or Maidens of the Spear, but decided I couldn't pull that off. Maybe a group of Elven pariahs, outcasts, wanderers and discontents.

The interesting topic of army theme creeped up this week, and I always thought that the smart strategy High Elven commanders should take would be to hire others to fight less critical actions (if their diplomats couldn't convince other nations to intervene). If I had to choose, I'd go for a 5000 point expeditionary force, consisting primarily of mercenaries, but with a High Elven core.

Voland's Venators, Al Muktar's Desert Dogs, Richter Kruger, Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks, Vespero's Vendetta, the Marksmen, the Besiegers, Bronzino's, cannons, and so forth. And Ogres. I don't personally believe in attritional warfare, but as a holding force while the primary strike formations position themselves to hit the flanks, it's acceptable.

[Musashi]

Archery, English Yeomen and High Elves

The cost benefit debacle of High Elven Archers never ceases to fascinate players, while I've given up complaining about it.

However, while tearing myself away from the LCD screen and actually annually perusing my books on various aspects of military history, I think I've had a minor enlightenment.

Why are we under the assumption that the longbow as defined by GW, is the same as that of a 6'+ longbow as wielded by English Yeomen? If anything, the counterpart of English longbow is the Wood Elves warbow, possibly under-ranged.

An English longbow can penetrate 4" of oak at short range, probably more. The GW longbow has the same penetrating power as the shortbow and bow, though longer range.

In a 24 shaft quiver, a third usually were flight arrows, that extended their range, and acted more to irritate horses and find weak points in light armour. The rest were bodkins, to punch through armour.

The models seem to give clues as well. The bows don't seem body length, and how many Yeomen have you seen kneeling when using their weapon?

This explains the ineffectiveness of the longbow on a Warhammer battlefield. You'd think that since the manufacturer/designers are British, they should know better. Unless they used the Scottish bow as a model?

[SpellArcher]

Oh but Musashi my archer figures have great big longbows! They were designed borderline 2nd/3rd edition and guess what? In second edition all elf longbows were S4! So maybe this would fit your reasoning?

Possibly they were reduced in strength because Dwarf players were fed up with Elves skipping around the table and still shooting as well as they could. Who knows?

[SpellArcher]

In 5th edition the longbow was an upgrade for Archers.

So in 6th maybe they kept the bow size without pondering the need to reflect the fact that longbows were by then compulsory?

[Musashi]

So the question is, what on Earth (ours, ie) is the WHFB longbow based on? They should carefully reconsider, if the answer they come up with is the English longbow.

And if it isn't the English longbow, I think none of us would object to paying extra to get that upgrade.