Observations on High Elven Wargaming

[Baleanoon]

Sorry you're right, back on topic.

HE elven magic is poor on a point by point basis, even in armies where magic is secondary, heck even o&g magic is cheaper. They're miscast table isn't that much more severe, and its extremely cut rate. And yet again from a poor book.

I just don't see how it can be argued that HE have this superiority in magic at 2000 pts value, where the game was has been "balanced" for.

[Lord Anathir]

Baleanoon is right, compared to other armies point vs point our magic and shooting is terribly ineffecient. Even orcs can have 6 chukkas worth just about the same as our 2 rbt and they will score more hits with single shot. There are very few armies that have the same high priced machines, but they all do considerably more damage. Empire great cannons do st10 d6 damage and WLCs do d6 damage and variable strength, but 50% of the time its st6+. Outs do fixed st6 and only d3, plus they lose strength when they pierce ranks, and i gotta roll to hit and so on. Now sure, those machines misfire and occasionally blow up and they can't chose to fire multishots and kill troopers/fast cav well, but those armies have other tools to deal with such things (gunners, jezzails, so on). We're supposed to be paying the extra points for versatility but in the end its just not worth what we pay.

Same goes for magic. We pay through the nose for the versatility...that is the spell selection and seer/silver wand. But unlike the true magic heavy armies we can't do one or a combination of the following (which truely define a strong magic phase):

1) 1 dice spell spam
2) magic move spam
3) high nuke spam (like warplightning spam)
4) mages that fight well in combat (like chaos)
5) mages very difficult to kill and offer some sort of AOE bonus in addition to being strong casters (like slaan, great daemons)
6) Have an obscene amount of dice (tzeentch beasts, mortals, daemons, dark elves)




By the way when I was back in Canada I had the chance to play against Baleanoon a few times and he is an exceptional general with a few different armies including high elves so I suggest no one dismisses his arguments as senseless.

[Keith]

Ok, so now our bolt throwers are terrible. You know, you are right, DE bolt throwers are far better than HE ones, they even cost less too. This is not observations on high elven war gaming, it is just complaining.


Are you really saying that O&G are a better army than HE? Everything you just mentioned has like leadership 6 at best. They fall like dominoes. With the exception of Empire cannons, which I admit that Empire does the magic shooting game better than HE do. To say that the O&G miscast table is not FAR worse then the standard one is just lying.

Has anyone here even tried to play a 4 mage list? with the banner? and 4 bolt throwers? See how brutal it can be? I have not, I have zero interest in playing an army like that. But have any of you guys tried it, or are you going to complain about how Orcs are better than us? Seriously!

We are a small elite army! Get that through your heads. Wow, a horde army is going to have cheaper units than us! Amazing! completely unintended I am sure.

Instead of complaining about how good 6 goblin bolt throwers are, consider what is not in their army, if they take that. They now only have 1 special choice left. Where as our bolt throwers are competing with eagles. We can take 4 bolt throwers and still take our best combat units, most other armies, cannot. Empire great cannons chew into their special, and compete with greatswords, pistoliers, outriders, and multiple inner circle knights. The volley gun competes with a steam tank. Think about what else is in the army when those particular books go shooting heavy.



(also, I stand by my point about that demon army, yes, to MASSACRE that army you have to kill that super block. But not to win. My point was, I have 4-5 turns to neutralize everything else before that block will be engaged, because it is slow, And considering how much faster an elven army can be, I would probably not front charge it, more to not base all the characters, than to get any combat rez bonus that I cannot get).

[Lord Anathir]

thats right dark elf rbt are stronger then high elf rbt because the army has better missile troops, scouts and fast cav that remove some of the load off of the rbt and let them shoot at more juicy targets. I'm happy you're making progress though, I wasn't sure if you'd ever be able to see that units cannot be compared in a vacuum statline vs statline and must be taken into context with the rest of the list. Things aren't black and white. They're not 'far better' as you exaggerated, but there is a difference between the two and the roles they play in the army. If I play agianst high elves I know that if i kill the rbt I've got battlefield control because I dont give a damn about the archers. When I play against dark elves I don't even have a chance to kill the rbt because of his hydra and massed harpies threatning my own machines. If I do get to his rbt his xbowmen and shades are still a threat to knights, infantry and dragons.

I never said O+G are stronger then HE. Just showing a comparision of the warmachines the two armies have.

I've tried 4 rbt and 4 mages... and its not effective at all. Miscasting really hurts high elf mages, especially the ones that end the phase. Also, after the seer and silver wand the other mages have situational spells, or weak ones like d6 missiles that your opponent can allow to go through. Also, 4 rbt have a strike range of 48 inches, so to get maximum power you try to deploy as deep as you can in your zone. However your mages are 24 inch range optimum so problems sometimes arise when you're trying to find places to protect mages. The most effective magic setup is the lvl4/lvl 2, after that you're wasting points. When I take the archmage I like to have a bsb in there with radiant gem to adda bit of strength to your core units (which they need and 4 mages dont provide). If theres a decent terrain selection your rbt will struggle to find places to shoot without being swarmed by fast units that fly over or run through a terrain piece on the flank and give your rbt 1 turn to shoot them.

Calm down about the orcs. I was comparing 6 v 2 jsut because those particular point values are close to one another lol. I can compare 1v1 if you like. 1 chukka @ long range hits 33% of the time, 1 rbt hits 50% of the time, but for more then double the points cost. Orcs are a weak army, but not against high elves! They struggle because of they're inability to deal with fear causers, namely vc and daemons, and monster heavy builds (sort of like us in that regard). I've actually been playing orcs a bit recently, using a lord, bsb, wolf hero, caddie, big boyz unit, some fast cav, 3 units of gobbos, fanatics, nets, 4 chukkas, 2 chariots, some trolls an a gaint. Special choices are a problem with the list but I'm content the way it is. As for empire, 2 cannons leaves plenty of room for a unit of pistoliers and a unit of greatswords. IC knights are not necessary. 1 Steam tank is enough, and even if there is a slot the volley gun isnt terribly effective and i dont see many people take it. Our rbt compete with our eagles, which are burdened with so many tasks I always wish I had more. Usually I forgo warmachine and mage hunting and save them for redirecting to save my infantry incapable of winning 1v1 fights.

[Keith]

thats right dark elf rbt are stronger then high elf rbt because the army has better missile troops, scouts and fast cav that remove some of the load off of the rbt and let them shoot at more juicy targets. I'm happy you're making progress though, I wasn't sure if you'd ever be able to see that units cannot be compared in a vacuum statline vs statline and must be taken into context with the rest of the list. Things aren't black and white. They're not 'far better' as you exaggerated, but there is a difference between the two and the roles they play in the army. If I play agianst high elves I know that if i kill the rbt I've got battlefield control because I dont give a damn about the archers. When I play against dark elves I don't even have a chance to kill the rbt because of his hydra and massed harpies threatning my own machines. If I do get to his rbt his xbowmen and shades are still a threat to knights, infantry and dragons.

Bolded for emphasis. I am, you are not. Do not speak to me as though I were a child. You speak down to almost everyone here, I suppose it gets more focused on me because i don't ignore your whining and complaining. If I were new to this forum I would wonder why you even play high elves. In fact, I am not new, and I still do wonder. Is it because you like complaining? I don't get it.

If DE have bolt throwers they don't have hydras, or have only one hydra. Us having four rares and the choice between eagles and bolt throwers if a good one, I feel. Other armies have to sacrifice more important slots for their war machines than we do. Which is a very important part of list building.

Again, you are talking about good DE are. I have not now, nor ever tried to say that HE are better than DE. Plus that is hardly an observation on HE wargaming. It is complaining. We all know that DE are more competetive. I don't need 50 more posts about it. So just stop. We all get it. Demons are better, Vampires are better, and Dark elves are better. Ok. Everyone know it. Can we stop hearing about it?


And please, as to me not understanding anything. I have played against demons 4 times. I am 3-1 against them. Please do not insult me by claiming that they must have been played by idiots.

I have played vampires 13 times. I am 8-2-2 against them. Many of these are in a tournament setting.

That being said, I understand that while the people i have played against have solid, tournament armies, they are not WAAC lists. Many of the tournaments I go to have a 60 - 20 - 20 -20 point scoring, where battle points are worth 50% of your overall score, painting is 20 points, sportsmanship is 20 points and composition is 20 points. Bringing and army that would be scored a 0 is a huge penalty, and you could go 3-0 and not win best overall.

But I have also been to plenty of tournaments with no composition score, and there are still few WAAC lists. I am thankful for this. I like playing warhammer, not listhammer or monsterhammer. Every once in a while, we all take out our crazy lists and battle, but i like having a theme and story behind my army. Thankfully, I play in an environment that 'allows' this.

So you can sit here and whine, or you can perhaps run a tournament yourself in your local area, that actually has soft scores. Show people what it is like. If they truly love the hobby, they will enjoy this more. If they are just about winning with a stupid army, then suggest they go play video games.

[Musashi]

Despite appearances, I feel discussions should remain not only civil, but respectful.

[Lord Anathir]

Bolded for emphasis. I am, you are not. Do not speak to me as though I were a child. You speak down to almost everyone here, I suppose it gets more focused on me because i don't ignore your whining and complaining. If I were new to this forum I would wonder why you even play high elves. In fact, I am not new, and I still do wonder. Is it because you like complaining? I don't get it.

Going to ignore that. I had no idea we were fighting.

If DE have bolt throwers they don't have hydras, or have only one hydra. Us having four rares and the choice between eagles and bolt throwers if a good one, I feel. Other armies have to sacrifice more important slots for their war machines than we do. Which is a very important part of list building.

I've found eagles to be more fundamental to the coherance of the army then rbt. 2 dark elf rbt and 1 hydra is perfectly standard, and its effective. Along with with 10xbows and a few shades + fast cav the darkes have a shooting phase that matches a 3 rbt high elf phase. The difference is that they have a hydra and we do not. The natural way of dealing withthe hydra is to shoot it with our rbt, which leaves their rbt free to target our own, thus leaving them with battlefield control by turn 3/4, even though we start with an extra chukka.

Again, you are talking about good DE are. I have not now, nor ever tried to say that HE are better than DE. Plus that is hardly an observation on HE wargaming. It is complaining. We all know that DE are more competetive. I don't need 50 more posts about it. So just stop. We all get it. Demons are better, Vampires are better, and Dark elves are better. Ok. Everyone know it. Can we stop hearing about it?

No we can't, and we shouldn't, because the key to building better lists is to keep reitterating WHY they are better, and thus what steps should be taken to find a list that does well against them.

And please, as to me not understanding anything. I have played against demons 4 times. I am 3-1 against them. Please do not insult me by claiming that they must have been played by idiots.

I have played vampires 13 times. I am 8-2-2 against them. Many of these are in a tournament setting.

That being said, I understand that while the people i have played against have solid, tournament armies, they are not WAAC lists. Many of the tournaments I go to have a 60 - 20 - 20 -20 point scoring, where battle points are worth 50% of your overall score, painting is 20 points, sportsmanship is 20 points and composition is 20 points. Bringing and army that would be scored a 0 is a huge penalty, and you could go 3-0 and not win best overall.

But I have also been to plenty of tournaments with no composition score, and there are still few WAAC lists. I am thankful for this. I like playing warhammer, not listhammer or monsterhammer. Every once in a while, we all take out our crazy lists and battle, but i like having a theme and story behind my army. Thankfully, I play in an environment that 'allows' this. [/quote]

Those are good records against vc and daemons.

So you can sit here and whine, or you can perhaps run a tournament yourself in your local area, that actually has soft scores. Show people what it is like. If they truly love the hobby, they will enjoy this more. If they are just about winning with a stupid army, then suggest they go play video games.

Not sure what you're trying to tell me. I've got no right no tell anyone waht to do ( I dont have the resources to run my own tournament). Either way, you are wrong in assuming my assessments of armies and their power levels are based solely on WAACy lists.

If you want to play a game online against me, give me a pm and I'll send you a link where we can have a fun game. I'll use my orc list against your elves if you like.

[Keith]

We are not fighting, but you talk down to people here. Maybe you don't realize you do this, but I doubt it. It is very annoying and it does not help your discussions.


I did not claim that you were solely concerned with WAAC lists, but i recall that you mentioned there are tons of them where you are. It was more a disclaimer that I wasn't playing against crazy armies. I did not want to make it seem like I was crushing the cheesiest cheese demons and VC. I actually haven't lost to DE yet... though I haven't played them with my HE yet.

I am first and foremost a Skaven player, and that is what i bring to most tournaments. I had been 19-0 against HE with my skaven, but sadly I lost my game against a really good player (who actually had three eagles, and i knew i was in trouble when i saw he had that.) in the 5th of 6 games in a GT. He ended up finishing 7th overall out of 80ish and has won GTs before. IT was a really fun game, very fast. The senario hurt me a lot. I know exactly how to fight HE with my skaven and I usually do very well. So please don't think I am trying to say that HE are amazing, i know where their soft spots are and how to hurt them.


Honestly, I think that your opinions on HE as compared to other armies would be better served if you made a tactica for HE VS. XXXXXX for each army. I think it would be a much more constructive collection of your opinions and observations. In fact, we should probably do that on this site.

[Lord Anathir]

send me a pm and we can play a game.

[Keith]

So are you not interested in what I posted now? Just if you can beat me? I sent you a PM, I am not familiar with online play.

[Prince_Asuryan]

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/ind ... board=26.0

[Lord Anathir]

In my previous post I already commended you on your good record vs VC and Daemons. Well done on your record on High Elves with skaven.

[Keith]

Never mind, I was referring to my comments about your tone and suggestions about how to make yourself a bit more constructive or useful for lack of a better term. I don't care about my battle record, I merely mentioned them as my experience as a backdrop for how i have come to the conclusions I have come to. You clearly have no interest in being constructive. Do I need to beat you in an online game for you to take my suggestions seriously?

[Lord Anathir]

I'm sort of confused why you're being so aggressive. I sent you the online because I thought you might be interested, we could play a game together and we can watch each other play against other people. Perhaps that way we could better understand one another. Yet, just like everything I say you find a way to turn it into an insult or an ego competition. I've reported your string of posts to a lore and I'll leave it up to them to do what they see fit.

Here is a contribution to the site: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=26534 along with many other posts over the years.

[Keith]

[CHOP]

[Baleanoon]

I think what really gets people so frustrated and aggressive with one another, isn't so much the list in its self but that the book runs contrary to the feel of the army, as even GW describes. I've actually stopped playing my HE, not because the book is weak, or I don't win, I've found ways to win with them, but they're both a) boring, or b) run contrary to what HE were first sold to me as.

Don't get me wrong if the HE army book was a novel it be great...as an army book, that's being used in a game setting its awful. I've gotten past the OMFG ASF MAN, and the Dragons dragons dragons, and I've found a book that's paper thing and one dimensional.

People complain about the strength and competitiveness of O&G, or WofC, but no ones complains about their feel, or depth. The book is soulless, and I have a bigger problem with that then anything. Without a soul nothing can be fixed because they're isn't any room to draw rules or units that will help with the problems in the book.

I hate using Dark Elves as a example but its one of my favorite books, even in 6th it was good. There aren't any new units in that book, except characters. Everything that is in there was there before, from Units to Gifts of Khaine, they've obviously added new magic items and gifts and special rules but the foundation was there. They addressed the problems with the 6th book and bam WHFB: Dark Elves is the pet favorite of hundreds, even non-elf players can appreciate the quality of the book. Yes they're are abuse able combination, but every book is going to have that, and I don't expect perfecting.

They seem to have done the opposite with high elves. They stripped the 6th book down to its bare bones, made all our units special, told us to take'em all, and let everything go first. The only magic items people take are the ones we took in the old book, or items that were made from honours, and the odd new enchanted item. Oh ya can't forget the Star dragon

I just find it thoroughly disappointing. Even now more than a year later, find it hard to even motivate myself to paint the army I assembled to go with the new book. I've built and painted a WofC, on my way to doing the second, a daemon army, and I'll probably do a DE before the end of the year. My HE will probably sit until I read a really moving piece of Elven fiction or they get a new book, to be honest.

[HERO]

Quite possibly the saddest thing I've read in a long time ^

High Elves will always appeal to me as a Noble army and a dying race, but they're competitive aspect is rather stale and boring I agree.
Either take Teclis or a Star Dragon or go home. I can think of 5+ combinations DE can field, all of which are really competitive and entertaining at the same time.

[Lord Anathir]

[CHOP]

[Keith]

[CHOP] Behave...

[Lord Anathir]

[CHOP] Behave...

[Lord Anathir]

[CHOP]

[Ruerl Khan]

Loremaster mode: Activate

Have you guys spotted a lot of red text? That is the metaphorical head of the debate wich is dead. Because your private discussion is over. Now. If you wish to discuss and flame each other, put it to PM's, but don't let me catch either of you continuing this spam fest or there -will- be consequences.

[SpellArcher]

It's really depressing that two of the best posters on here are at each other's throats.

I agree that the High Elf book lacks flexibility and flavour. If you have enough ideas for an army though this should not be enough to stop you IMHO.

Winning tournaments with them is another matter. Ask Ant Spiers I suppose!

[lathian]

We would, but the bitchers and moaners on this site that view convention as sacrosanct drove him away, and as such, this site is now Spier-less.

[Musashi]

Balanced List

I have never found a formula to construct a balanced list anywhere below 3K, and when I say balanced, I mean fairly evenly split among all the various components that make up an army. Actually, even a 3K you have to commit to one strategy or the other, at 4K you can write a list and be very confident that you can take on all comers in most situations.

Anyway, I was toying around with the idea of a list in the 1500 point range, since it removes any Lord choices. What would be needed?

Mage
Part One

A Mage. Yes, I was indeed surprised as I came to that finding, especially since my disdain is well-known. But the Mage is there purely in his defensive function, and would be equipped with the Annulian Crystal, allowing a total of four Dispel Dice to be utilized. This is sufficient to neutralize any single opposing spellcaster, and if the Gods are with you, possibly two.

Before Magic Resistance was halfway neutered, anything possessed of this faculty might have severely constrained an opponent during his magic phase; unfortunately, with the new ruling, a more active participation was required, rather than passively relying on our rather capable artefacts (and Caradryan).

Depending on the spellcasting opposition, the Mage would be concentrating primarily on Drain Magic if faced with two or more Magicians whose spells we can dispel in the normal course of events. The sensible thing to do at the same time, is to prioritize the elimination of spellcasting elements from the enemy, which would include bound items.

The Mage need not be mounted, since a frontline role is not foreseen. However, placing him in his own Tiranoc Chariot does give interesting possibilities, especially towards the end of the battle, when one would suppose his magic abilities would have less an impact on the game, and his mode of transport, more.

One could also replace the Annulian Crystal with two Dispel Scrolls, but I feel that commits one to an aggressive policy, because in the face of magical superiority, one would be more inclined to be ruled by the need to eliminate enemy spellcasters.

The remaining ten points could be invested in either the Silver Wand or the Gem of Courage - the Silver Wand opens up more avenues if faced with only one spellcaster.

[ducky11]

Why do people say that the HE book goes against the character of the army? Are the elves not an elite force of the best and quickest troops in the warhammer world who have all been training for centuries in the arts of war and magic, and while few in number each elf has prowess uncompared by most in the other raises? Are our troops expensive? check. Are they frail? check. are they fast? well they do have ASF which despite the complaints is very characterful and is not army breaking Can they win games against any army (yes even demons) despite their small numbers? OMG YES THEY CAN!!!!

And what is this about how much better the DE's are. They are more forgiving I will give them that but the HE's have better spearelves that TEAR DE's apart like nobodies business, They have WL's that are so unbelievably powerful for the meager 15 points they cost... yes you heard me i stopped just short of calling them OPed (they are more than capable of killing 4 VC blood knights in a single turn of combat without outrageous luck). We have pg one of the best (if not THE BEST anvils in the whole game). We have DP which are excellent cavalry, not the best, but excellent none the less (dragon armour really is some useful stuff). Ok their archers are overpriced and not the best but they are certainly not useless and can be taken. And no matter how expensive elven mages and RBT's are I am amazed at how much damage they all always seem to be able to do despite their handicaps... I could go on and on and on, dont even get me started on the stupid overpowered stuff like teclis and the star dragon...

Did I just make elves sound really good, even OP'ed? Yeah I think I did. You know what it was easy too because High Elves are GOOD!!!! All i needed was a tad of exageration

Quit the point for point comparison, it means nothing, really it doesnt. when all is said and done every single unit in the HE arsonal is more than capable than performing and no one has anything to do but blaim themselves not the army book for losing a game, oh and it doesnt require a teclis, star dragon list (though i do love me some dragons) to win either...

give me a break

[SpellArcher]

The problem is not that HE are a bad army. It's that they start the game at a disadvantage against Daemons, DE and VC. So with equally skilled generals, the latter are likely to win. This is a recent army book problem though, it is not HE specific.

[ducky11]

But thats it I just dont see how they start at a disadvantage, especially against VC and DE. I get DoC, but even DE and VC start at a disadvantage against them. VC are T3 troops, who with the exception of a few select troops depend entirely on static CR and feer to win their battles. A big block of 20 spears will just about NEVER lose combat to a huge unit of zombies or skelies cuz they kill so many, white lions with a banner are impervious too, DP need to win the first round of combat whether the enemy causes fear or not... etc etc... VC are a very good and competitive army but I do not see what all the fuss is about. Blood Knights are awesome but way too overpriced and we have multiple units that can kill them in a heartbeat. They have NO shooting, and there magic is almost wholly defensive (if they are smart). So our ASF t3 troops will be at full or almost full strength when they get into combat and you say we are at a disadvantage? Please tell me how so. The new, DE I admit I have never played against, however I know that our spears would destroy them, just as they do any t3 troopers without amazing armour. I have seen battles against them though, and I know we have solutions for their better shooting phase. their hydra is OPed apparently, well guess what so is our star dragon lol. Im not saying our book is the strongest im saying our book has its strengths (some of which, like spear elves, people do not recognize) and its weaknesses just like VC, just like DE, and yes at least to a lesser extent, yes demons. Some armies may be more forgiving when a player makes a mistake however, to the good general i think there is no army more rewarding then HE.

[Wildling04]

And what is this about how much better the DE's are. They are more forgiving I will give them that but the HE's have better spearelves that TEAR DE's apart like nobodies business,

DE are typically a tough army, and despite our ASF they have counters; they're own ASF, assassins, etc. On top of that, since their troops are cheaper than our spearelves, they have more of them.

[ducky11]

How many assassins do most DE armies take? 1? I mean I know they dont take up a hero slot or anything but if they take more than 1 or maybe 2 they wont have anymore troops then we do... and while im sure they are killer when they first appear they are super super easy to kill which means easy victory points. Im sorry 1, maybe 2 90pt assassins or however many points they cost do not seem like something to negate our ASF rule, oh and assuming its fairly obvious which unit is going to have the assassin which it may or may not be, that's what phoenix guard are for... For every character and expensive killy thing they take that means less troops... and a unit of our spear elves are about 2 or 3 pts better than a unit of their spear men... wait thats funny it appears that they are indeed 2 or 3 pts more expensive... WOW