Observations on High Elven Wargaming

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Musashi
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#241 Post by Musashi »

Don't they have two for one slots? And cost 45 points each.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#242 Post by Keith »

yes, and they are 45 before runes, which everyone adds for the most part. But that is a unit of hammers, miners, slayers that he is not taking. Besides dwarves have zero magic capability, they should be able to take a little bit more shooting than others.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#243 Post by Musashi »

The Anvil does compensate somewhat for the lack of magic.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#244 Post by Keith »

Yes, but not every dwarf list has an anvil and there are certain sarcifices made when you do take one.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#245 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Which is why playing dwarfs isnt always fun. Shooting isnt very risky for the dwarfs so you dont really get any backfire, sure they dont have magic but we all know that even teclis can disappear into the realm of chaos if he rolls too many 1s, that handgun is never gonig to clog up for that dwarf on the hill.

One of the special things about HEs in this eddeition is that we can take a lot of specials and a lot of rares (because they know our core isnt amazing what whatever) so maybe if you were to put an especially powerful imbuement of magic on a bolt thrower it would count as 2 rares?
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#246 Post by Lethalis »

Coating the bolts in Ielthan could be interesting.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#247 Post by Musashi »

Too bad we can't poison them, but that would be unfluffy.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#248 Post by Musashi »

Musashi's Law on Rules

If rules can be abused, they will be.


Musashi's Axiomon Rules

If rules can be abused, they will be, at the the most inconvenient time.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#249 Post by Musashi »

MAGIC
To dominate, or not to dominate, that is the question
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fireballs and gateways of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a horde of marauders
And by opposing end them. To cast—to chance,
No more; and by a chance to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That dice is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd.


One reason that there are less DD generated than PD for the same number of spellcaster levels, on the theory that statistically your opponent cannot stop everything, even with failed spells.

Since on the average our spellcasters per level tend to cost appreciably more, we would lose in an Arcane arms race, as we would seriously compromise our capability in other aspects in order to really compete there.

Even should we obtain Magic supremacy on the tabletop, the fickle finger of fate can turn what may seem a sad and forlorn failure to cast a spell, into a fatal fiasco.

Encounters may be won on the whim of luck, wars usually aren't. In fact, generals tend to try to limit chance in their calculations, and while being able to roll more die that your opponent may seem preferable (and it is for Vampires and Tomb Kings), any spell that requires more than one dice becomes increasingly risky in the long term.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#250 Post by Musashi »

This is one of those slow periods, where nothing much happens Warhammerwise. Supposedly, 2010 will be the year of Fantasy, but having heard rumours of unconfirmed production schedules, I wonder if they just won't push it to 2011.

I don't think there's much left to discover in our Army Book, except, perchance some synergistic connection resulting from poor wording of rules in the next few Army Books.


Edited for incorrect dates.



DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS

Magic Pool Die

My thought is that the pools should have one dice each for every thousand points per side, with extra one added at x500. This means no change at the normal point range played, but at 500-1499, there would be onlly one Dispel and Power Dice available in the pool, and below 500, none at all. At 3K, you would have three each, 4K four each, 5K, five each and so on.

Might not be practical, but it would certainly change magic strategy.
Last edited by Musashi on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#251 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

It would make magic worse. At high points, people get more power dice AND more spell casters...

Currently, I'm of the opinion that magic needs a re-think to reduce the number of magic dominating armies we see. A simple rule would be that all armies have a limit on the number of power dice they are allowed, simple as. Or at the very least remove the 2 free dice you get.

VC's, DoC's and to a lesser extent DE and Lizzies have their best builds rooted in high magic output. Limiting this would bring them to much more manageable levels...
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#252 Post by Musashi »

DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS

Magic Pool Die


It's a thought. I do know one thing, the mechanics for magic have to change in the next edition, because from the HE perspective, for the armies that we can overwhelm with it, we don't really need it, and for those we can't, we do.



MAGIC WEAPONS AND DAMAGE


It may be one of those things where the author takes things for granted, without defining it - a Magic Weapon supposedly short hand for an item that can deliver damage in close combat that is inherently magic.

Then we get to the rather interesting subcategory of ranged weapons and damage, which until the WE FAQ was assumed to be inherently magic as well, but it was clarified that only the arrows were.

A conservative view of the problem is to consider all magic missile weapons as non magic in their damage, unless it's stated so in either their description or subsequent FAQ. The liberal one is to consider their damage magic unless it's stated otherwise in their description or subsequent FAQ.

Either view is valid.

You have less arguments with the conservative position.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#253 Post by Musashi »

DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS

The Vortex Shard


I think requires the following errata:

1. 80 points, instead of 75 points.

2. Change the sentence, "The bearer may use the Vortex Shard at the start of any enemy Magic Phase." to "The bearer may use the Vortex Shard at any time during enemy Magic Phase."
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#254 Post by Musashi »

DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS


The solution, it seems to me, to making our Core units more beloved is to either make them cheaper or improve their performance. I doubt they'll be made cheaper, so it might be better to throw in a couple of more points and improve their performance, thus actually providing the basis of High Elven forces being smaller and eliter, even at the basic level.

This could be done in a series of upgrades (which I've always preferred) or make these improvements built-in.


Spears

LSGs could be dropped and units with dual weaponry be made optional. Heavy armour refers to actual protection, not weight, perhaps even optional ultra heavy armour. If spears are grounded, and the unit doesn't move, they inflict additional damage against chargers.


Archers

Optionally, could be skirmishers, fire in volleys, fire through single rank friendly units, increase range, accuracy, faster and/or more penetrating power.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#255 Post by Lord Anathir »

core just has to be cheaper. they're simply not worth 9, 11 and 13. even with heavy armor on spears, st3 means they shouldnt be more then 8 points. archers should be under 10 (9). lsg should be no more then 10. St3 just isnt all that great and even with their ws4, and higher initiative and ld then most other armies core, the t3 and 4+/5+ save is just bad. Even with reduced prices people will still be taking minimum core, because they're simply awful, no matter how you look at it.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#256 Post by Musashi »

I prefer cheaper, but that's not going to happen, so I'd rather have them improved and have a greater effect on the game.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#257 Post by Musashi »

DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS


Archers

Actually, the more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea that one unit could be turned into skirmishers, since it solved two problems, a much cheaper skirmisher variant than Shadow Warriors (you neither pay for Scouting nor Hatred), that could act as either to screen more valuable troops, be a character bunker, or act to infiltrate through heavy terrain.

For those that aren't skirmishers, the stakes and brazier option would be nice - it gives trolls and other regenerating annoyances something to worry about.


Miscellaneous

Still leaves us without a cheap troop type. I wonder if we could enlist bunnies, they would be terrible in close combat, but could throw eggs like grenades, plus, it might actually be harder to hit them, besides being shorter and super cute.

Or hobbits, they're cheap, cheerful and fun to throw into combat - regardless of the outcome, you can't really lose.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#258 Post by Musashi »

I thought I'd reprint one of the more entertaining exchanges I had on this forum, the original of which you can find in the archives.

The trigger was a suggestion to look at someone's op-ed in the Allempires.net forum, the article is printed below in black.

My comments are in red. Draxynnic's are in blue.
I got to wondering what the high elves in warhammer fantasy battles and the eldar in warhammer 40,000 would have to do in order to survive, expand, reconquer, conquer, basically revive both of the races here are few things that I think would need to happen:

High elves:

1 Institute a breeding program that makes every high elf family have to have at least twelve kids, and create a strong sense of family, unity, community and loyalty to the pheonix king. Good luck with that.

2 Do something about the vortex and the magical energies that are making the elves sterile (like a containment field perhaps?) and then use magic to heal the sterile elves If true, he has a point, insurance can't be an issue, and you'd think that healing magic wouldn't be a problem. Or if it is, the problem is that they've tried it and it doesn't work.

3 Get rid of the decades long courting rituals and make it were when an elf turns fifteen they're considered adults Maybe if they're Dark Elves, with dark appetites. Especially since I'm not sure it's actually been stated when elves are sexually mature. It wouldn't surprise me if it takes longer for them than it does for humans.

Oh, and... Good luck with that.

4 Breed for immunity to diseases both magical and mundane. Breed for intelligence, size strength, agility, and speed I believe that Elves in general are highly resistant to disease and mutation. They are, after all, the perfect humanoid form. Or so they tell me. Very Happy Plus, you can't really combine a eugenic breeding program with a 'make everyone breed' program. Either you're engaging in selective breeding (which involves having some people not breeding) or you're not.

At best, you could have the most suitable men getting all the women and control what matchups there are, but how long can you run roughshod over elven rights before you're no better than the enemy?

5 Train every elf in every known lore and color of magic you don't have to have supermage just train them so that they get the basic concept and can utilize it, and in the use of mundane things and in every known martial art and the use of every known weapon and the art of war It takes time and interest; High Elves like to specialize and concentrate on one thing at a time; that's not to say they can't multi-task, but it spoils their enjoyment of the activity.


6 Issue every elf with good proofed full ithilmar armor inlaid with magical protections and good weapons with magical powers and every sort of of offensive and defensive magical and mundane protection they can carry Let me introduce you to a little economic principle called 'scarcity of resources'. I'm sure the High Elves are trying to keep their army as well equipped as they can.

7 Have their cavalry add polish hussar tactics and lances to their armament
and give full proofed ithilmar barding to all the mounts (Griffons, dragons, horses, white lions, etc) I'm thinking something like that of a klibanophoros for the horses Luckily I study Roman military and history, he wants to turn the horses into Abrams, and yet keep them as fast cavalry. To be fair, ithilmar is supposed to allow equipment to be lighter while still offering the same protection.

8 On the army: They need to take the chariots and mount repeater bolt throwers in them and make the bolt throwers where they can fire stones as well and add a flame thrower to the chariots Now where have I heard this before? Yes, I think improved artillery is something that High Elves could use. Now, where are you going to get people to build this stuff while everyone's at mage school? For that matter, who's growing food?

They need to call up every freindly non high elf mage, scholar, inventor, and engineer, they can get their hands on make them work together and no funny buisness and get them to teach every elf everything they know. Secretly bestow an enchanment on them that gives them elvish youthfulness, lifespan, vigour and vitiality on them so long as they stay on ulthuan. Spy on all the other nations and get their technology which would require an organized intelligence agency that was fanatically loyal to Finubar and the spys were recruited from the best of the best Bribe them with extended life and create an Elven KGB; it works for Chaos.

Get all sorts of technology and weapons technology from everywhere they can get. Like say a giant ballista, ithilmar claws, ithilmar ram, and flamer armed hang glider that has a magical power plant that generates thermals for the gilder and every time the glider goes higher or keeps moving the more powerful the crystal is. Make big ships for the new elvish air force gliders to land on make the glider agile fast powerful big enough to carry alrge amounts of troops, animals and supplies but small enough to land almost anywhere and of course have different sizes Unsurprisingly, the US military tried this with giant blimps; the technology might have worked, but I believe the stumbling block was vulnerability.
On the other hand, the typical Warhammer opponent isn't likely to have an air force to match that of a 20th century military, and a crystal isn't going to be so much of a target. Plausible, on the assumption that the antigravity crystal can be made in the world.

Focus on more fire power make metal repeating crossebows that neverr run out of ammo and have bayonets and fire thousands of tiny aerodynamic blades with poisoned edges that are very accurate and can pierce any and every type of armor and make larger ones and make siege engines Farfetched, even for 40K. Indeed. Although simply upgrading to RXBs would be an improvement.

wake up as many dragons as possible and use them and the eagles in tandem with the gliders Dragon guild masters voiced concerns from their members regarding overtime, and workplace safety. Very Happy And, again... good luck with that. The Asur have been trying to wake dragons up since they started going to sleep - that there are still Dragon Princes on horseback clearly shows that it's easier said than done.

9 Once all that is done discreetly start as many civil wars among all the other races except your closest allies and make the allies are kept under your thumb while the other races are weak move in retake your old territory and conquer new territory and consolidate your power then get the on asrai's good side and set to work turning athel loren and its dominions into another asur province then use your power to strong arm the dwarves into giving you back the pheonix crown along with a bunch of juicy concessions Sneaking suspicion this is already taking place, otherwise how'd you'd explain why the Warhammer world was always at war; for the Dwarves, I think it's time we start threatening to publish some interesting photographs of their heroes and some of their more interesting fetishes.? Hey, it works for the Eldar! Something gives me the feeling that the Asrai won't be happy about becoming just another Asur province, though. And reclaiming the old crown is pointless. Better to make the dwarfs want to give it back than to force them to.[/color
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#259 Post by ceyl-isha »

WHFb BRB for flyers plays out ...your elf jet lands and charges a unit of goblins loses to combat resilution and gets over run...Pont is in WHFB you can have 10 to all stats and still lose, its psychology and combat res that it is based on.

One rule to rule them all, make Unbrakeable an High Elf army wide rule and the world will fall to them.
Stand and face your fears
in the end thay may be
all that you have.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#260 Post by Musashi »

DESIGN IMPROVEMENTS


Ellyrian Reavers

Our light cavalry unit seems to lack any real quality that would tempt most players to deploy them, not even that of an attractive point cost.

I guess it's time to pull out the Special Rules option.

Parthian Shot - Unit cannot march but may move twice, once during the movement phase, and then during the shooting phase. Unit may move and shoot.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#261 Post by Keith »

how very privateer press of you.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#262 Post by Musashi »

Actually, Man 'O' War.

If I thought all HE units could move like that, I'd figure out a way to implement it.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#263 Post by Musashi »

CHARACTERS


The Mage Knight

I tend to emphasize the magic and Caledorian aspects of our armies for a number of reasons; I take the magic phase very seriously, and at 3K I would advise against the Mage Knight option, and do not see much benefit at 2K. Below 2K, it has interesting possibilities.

I'm not really a fan of Eltharion in his current incarnation, though the RPG side of my personality would like a character that can shine in both the combat and the arcane arts. However, the way our forces are structured, High Elves work best as specialists, and we usually have enough character slots to allow us this luxury (actually, we're pretty much required to specialize).

This advise should not deter players who would take this option on other grounds, such as aesthetics, but being aware of the shortcomings does allow them to utilize such characters optimally.

I've always seen Eltharion as a great leader of a reconnaissance in force for a campaign game, since such a force would need to be fast and flexible enough to respond to changing situations (such as the opposing player deploying unexpected options), and once having ascertained what a specific enemy's force Order of Battle is, they can disengage.

At below 2K, the Mage Knight gives you a fighting character who contributes an additional dispel dice, and a possible spellcasting platform, though at the expense of extra hitting power and protection; I tend to view him as a more passive figure in the face of most magic power deployed by the opposition, since being level one, I wouldn't want to base my strategy around being able to cast Bear's Anger or any similar combat buffing spell.
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#264 Post by SpellArcher »

I'll try to present a case for the Mage Knight at 2K.

Consider this typical magic set-up:

Lvl 2 Seerstaff, Scroll
Lvl 2 Wand, Scroll
Banner of Sorcery

This costs 400pts. Consider the following:

Prince, Radiant Gem (High Magic), Scroll
Lvl 2 Seerstaff, Scroll
Banner of Sorcery

This costs 300pts.

The first set-up has the advantages that the Wand mage has an extra spell, an extra PD and can cast on 3 dice. Is this worth 100pts? At 2250 maybe. At 2000pts, I don't think so.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#265 Post by RE.Lee »

there's something wrong with the point values
cheers, Lee

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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#266 Post by Musashi »

Mage 2/Seer, DS - 150
Mage 2/Wand, DS - 130
BoS - 50

Total 330


Mage Prince / Gem, DS - 215
Mage 2/Seer, DS - 150
BoS - 50

Total 415
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#267 Post by SpellArcher »

The 300pts only counts the magic part of the Prince's cost. The rest is functional outside magic, for example the Ld 10 and the combat skills, which the 2 Lvl 2 set-up will probably pay for outside anyway. The points are correct.

A fully-loaded Mage is 185 pts.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#268 Post by Musashi »

Musashi wrote:Mage 2/Seer, DS - 185
Mage 2/Wand, DS - 165
BoS - 50

Total 400


Mage Prince / Gem, DS - 215
Mage 2/Seer, DS - 185
BoS - 50

Total 450
Revised
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1AfDgZttw]Sunrise[/url]
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#269 Post by SpellArcher »

My point is that this is not a useful comparison. The 150 points for the Prince are not expenditure on magic. I could equally post:

Prince
2 x Lvl2
Banner of Sorcery

550

Prince
Gem + Scroll
Lvl 2
Banner of Sorcery

450
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#270 Post by Musashi »

High Elven armies function best as synergies, and what I advised against was taking the Mage Prince at 3K plus.

At 2K, if I were going to use this build, I mentioned that I would prefer Eltharion in preference to the Mage Prince, mainly due to his increased combat capabilities and arcane potential. Probably could risk giving him a coven, since you could compensate by adding Dragon Princes and elite infantry to the list.

It's just my belief that the Mage Knight comes into his own below 2K.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1AfDgZttw]Sunrise[/url]
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[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01jrt6b/The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5/]The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5[/url]

[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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