Observations on High Elven Wargaming

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Wildling04
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#211 Post by Wildling04 »

ducky11 wrote: But thats it I just dont see how they start at a disadvantage, especially against VC and DE. I get DoC, but even DE and VC start at a disadvantage against them.


It's pretty well accepted knowledge that everyone, not just high elves, starts at a disadvantage against all three of these armies. So, to be honest, arguing that we don't seems pretty silly.

I'd actually argue that I find myself matching up better against demons than the other two. I'm not saying that I find them easier, just that we have some tools that other armies don't that can help us.
ducky11 wrote:
VC are T3 troops, who with the exception of a few select troops depend entirely on static CR and feer to win their battles. A big block of 20 spears will just about NEVER lose combat to a huge unit of zombies or skelies cuz they kill so many, white lions with a banner are impervious too, DP need to win the first round of combat whether the enemy causes fear or not... etc etc... VC are a very good and competitive army but I do not see what all the fuss is about.
Except that we don't play in a vacuum, so while our match-ups are excellent one-on-one, they don't break. They also typically have more models than we do so that means that a good vamp player will force us to get stuck in and then flank us.
ducky11 wrote: Blood Knights are awesome but way too overpriced and we have multiple units that can kill them in a heartbeat.
Most average or above average vampire generals I see don't take these guys.
ducky11 wrote:
They have NO shooting, and there magic is almost wholly defensive (if they are smart). So our ASF t3 troops will be at full or almost full strength when they get into combat and you say we are at a disadvantage?
Not sure what you mean here by defensive magic. Are you talking invocation? As for ASF again, they have a few things that can make it difficult for high elves that allow their vamps to go first.

ducky11 wrote:
The new, DE I admit I have never played against, however I know that our spears would destroy them, just as they do any t3 troopers without amazing armour. I have seen battles against them though, and I know we have solutions for their better shooting phase.


You need to play more games. Simply computing one unit against another doesn't work. I play both armies and when I use my high elves, I have to play a much more mistake free game.
ducky11 wrote: their hydra is OPed apparently, well guess what so is our star dragon lol.
This comparison isn't even remotely useful or valid. Comparing a 175 point rare choice that is very much underpriced to a 600 point model that takes up a lord and hero slot in laughable. When a high elf player takes a dragon, that's pretty much what your opponent has to worry about. On the other hand, when a DE player has a hydra, they have to worry about that and whatever else you might bring because you still have a whole lot of army left.
ducky11 wrote:
Im not saying our book is the strongest im saying our book has its strengths (some of which, like spear elves, people do not recognize) and its weaknesses just like VC, just like DE, and yes at least to a lesser extent, yes demons. Some armies may be more forgiving when a player makes a mistake however, to the good general i think there is no army more rewarding then HE.
I agree that HE are a solid army, but they do have some clear weaknesses. Last night I played a Chaos Mortal army (and it was his first game with them) and both of us had "balanced" type lists. I clearly outmaneuvered him, getting into very few fights that were not on my terms. He failed every single break test that he had to make, and all were with the bsb nearby, as well as some other key psych tests. I also outrolled him a bit. In the end, my outmaneuvering and the luck of the dice going my way netted me a 3 point minor victory. Had I played with my dark elves (a balanced list), I'm pretty confident the final result wouldn't have even been close.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#212 Post by ducky11 »

I know quite a few VC players, and some of them are very very good and some of them not so good. Im sorry, while I have lost to the better players as often as I have beat them I just do not find them any tougher to beat than other armies. I was using Blood Knights as an example of a powerful unit btw nothing more. I think it is absolutely fair to make comparisons between units it is simply to show that we have something that matches up atleast fairly well against everything VC have I recognize i need to play more against DE but no one at my local shop plays them, though my friend is just starting up an army so i will have the opportunity soon. But even them on paper we can find match ups for everything they have. That is all a general needs, units that can match up, everything else is up to him and his tactics. Also why do you say VC and DE are better than all other armies besides DoC like it is fact? It is all subjective my friend.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#213 Post by Keith »

ducky11 wrote:I know quite a few VC players, and some of them are very very good and some of them not so good. Im sorry, while I have lost to the better players as often as I have beat them I just do not find them any tougher to beat than other armies. I was using Blood Knights as an example of a powerful unit btw nothing more. I think it is absolutely fair to make comparisons between units it is simply to show that we have something that matches up atleast fairly well against everything VC have I recognize i need to play more against DE but no one at my local shop plays them, though my friend is just starting up an army so i will have the opportunity soon. But even them on paper we can find match ups for everything they have. That is all a general needs, units that can match up, everything else is up to him and his tactics. Also why do you say VC and DE are better than all other armies besides DoC like it is fact? It is all subjective my friend.

Do the people you play use the helm of commandment? I find that makes a huge difference in VC V. HE fights. We need to be hitting on 3's to win most fights.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#214 Post by Foxbat »

Keith wrote:Do the people you play use the helm of commandment? I find that makes a huge difference in VC V. HE fights. We need to be hitting on 3's to win most fights.
Yes the VC I've faced do. However, I've had more problems with the Black Coach/Knight combo with von whatever characters...
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#215 Post by Wildling04 »

ducky11 wrote:I know quite a few VC players, and some of them are very very good and some of them not so good. Im sorry, while I have lost to the better players as often as I have beat them I just do not find them any tougher to beat than other armies. I was using Blood Knights as an example of a powerful unit btw nothing more. I think it is absolutely fair to make comparisons between units it is simply to show that we have something that matches up atleast fairly well against everything VC have
The point about individual match-ups is that discussing them is only as good as you have them in a very specific situation. One thing I should clarify is that if you are bringing a dragon, then yes, these differences are not nearly as striking.


ducky11 wrote: I recognize i need to play more against DE but no one at my local shop plays them, though my friend is just starting up an army so i will have the opportunity soon. But even them on paper we can find match ups for everything they have. That is all a general needs, units that can match up, everything else is up to him and his tactics.
Let me explain it better. As mentioned before, I play both armies. My dark elf army is considerably more balanced than others that I see. I take a lord (not the unkillable), a bsb, a level 2 caster, spears, corsairs, blackguard, cold one knights, shades, crossbows, 2 units of dark riders, and a hydra. (Note: 2x core infantry blocks, a single hydra, and a relatively modest shooting and magic phase for DE). Against HE, does ASF worry me? Not at all. It really only affects my infantry blocks and 2 of those mitigate or cancel it (with the banner and an assassin). Put me on the other side of the table, and I have several concerns.


ducky11 wrote: Also why do you say VC and DE are better than all other armies besides DoC like it is fact? It is all subjective my friend.
I said it is "pretty much agreed," meaning most people that play Warhammer put these three armies into a category all of their own with regards to competition.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#216 Post by Keith »

Wildling04 wrote:
ducky11 wrote:I know quite a few VC players, and some of them are very very good and some of them not so good. Im sorry, while I have lost to the better players as often as I have beat them I just do not find them any tougher to beat than other armies. I was using Blood Knights as an example of a powerful unit btw nothing more. I think it is absolutely fair to make comparisons between units it is simply to show that we have something that matches up atleast fairly well against everything VC have
The point about individual match-ups is that discussing them is only as good as you have them in a very specific situation. One thing I should clarify is that if you are bringing a dragon, then yes, these differences are not nearly as striking.


ducky11 wrote: I recognize i need to play more against DE but no one at my local shop plays them, though my friend is just starting up an army so i will have the opportunity soon. But even them on paper we can find match ups for everything they have. That is all a general needs, units that can match up, everything else is up to him and his tactics.
Let me explain it better. As mentioned before, I play both armies. My dark elf army is considerably more balanced than others that I see. I take a lord (not the unkillable), a bsb, a level 2 caster, spears, corsairs, blackguard, cold one knights, shades, crossbows, 2 units of dark riders, and a hydra. (Note: 2x core infantry blocks, a single hydra, and a relatively modest shooting and magic phase for DE). Against HE, does ASF worry me? Not at all. It really only affects my infantry blocks and 2 of those mitigate or cancel it (with the banner and an assassin). Put me on the other side of the table, and I have several concerns.


ducky11 wrote: Also why do you say VC and DE are better than all other armies besides DoC like it is fact? It is all subjective my friend.
I said it is "pretty much agreed," meaning most people that play Warhammer put these three armies into a category all of their own with regards to competition.

It isn't just agree upon, i don't have the link here, but it is at the herdstone, a beastman website. there is a link under a thread "Warhammer R@ped and killed" It discusses the tournament results of late. In not only are the above three armies doing very well, but make up over half of armies present.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#217 Post by ducky11 »

All I am trying to say is that:
1. HE are not nearly as weak and helpless as they are being made out to be

2. The big three while they are def the hardest army books, are all completely beatable, if people feel like they need to play these armies to win that is their problem, who cares..

3. While they are not always the most ideal the HE have all the tools required to win, If you are good you can beat any army even if they are being played by a good general

Another thing I find interesting is that as everybody talks about the big three alot of people seem to think 1 of them is not that bad while the others are impossible. For me idk about dark elves beyond speculation, but VC are not that bad for me, but Demons are an army I always struggle quite a bit against. Wildling seems to struggle against VC, and playing DE have a lot of respect for the army naturally, yet he doesnt struggle all that much with DoC from what I gather. I have heard others talking about how the DE are the hardest and most broken army. Ive even heard ppl talking about how difficult the new lizards are to beat (the only army i have never lost to in a 2000+pt battle). What I am trying to say is it is clear to me no matter what the tournament results show we are quite capable of competing with all lists, at this point I would argue that as much as the big three of are harder than the other books a bigger reason they win everything at this point is that so many more ppl play these armies in tournies now.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#218 Post by Keith »

ducky11 wrote:All I am trying to say is that:
1. HE are not nearly as weak and helpless as they are being made out to be

2. The big three while they are def the hardest army books, are all completely beatable, if people feel like they need to play these armies to win that is their problem, who cares..

3. While they are not always the most ideal the HE have all the tools required to win, If you are good you can beat any army even if they are being played by a good general

Another thing I find interesting is that as everybody talks about the big three alot of people seem to think 1 of them is not that bad while the others are impossible. For me idk about dark elves beyond speculation, but VC are not that bad for me, but Demons are an army I always struggle quite a bit against. Wildling seems to struggle against VC, and playing DE have a lot of respect for the army naturally, yet he doesnt struggle all that much with DoC from what I gather. I have heard others talking about how the DE are the hardest and most broken army. Ive even heard ppl talking about how difficult the new lizards are to beat (the only army i have never lost to in a 2000+pt battle). What I am trying to say is it is clear to me no matter what the tournament results show we are quite capable of competing with all lists, at this point I would argue that as much as the big three of are harder than the other books a bigger reason they win everything at this point is that so many more ppl play these armies in tournies now.

And that is exactly it!! Because we play a small elite army, we have the tools to deal with most things, however, not all in the same list. HE are very good when tailoring a list to an opponent, but struggles due to the costs and options, in the ability to cover all bases at once.

Deamons and VC have unbreakable fear causing core infantry. That is huge in and of itself. VC can also raise theirs back, and Deamons have Ward saves. They are very forgiving armies, that is why they are incredibly popular. DE has some incredible magic items, the best of any book overall i think, and many items are under costed. DE can do magic heave better than almost everyone, they can also get pretty solid magic defense without even taking a character choice! Due to how cheap DE's items are, they can cover more bases a lot easier than HE. Which is why they are overall, stronger.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#219 Post by Musashi »

Balanced List

While a number of different point values are playable below 2K, I personally feel that 1500 would be the ideal, since it does allow certain options that would be hamstrung at half or one kay.


Dragon Mage
Part Two

Any terror causer at this level will unbalance the list, and the point of the exercise was to try and achieve a harmony between various components. Taken together with the Silver Wand and Banner of Sorcery, the game will ultimately devolve into whether the opponent can stop or kill the Dragon Mage before he can cause irreparable harm; on the other hand, the loss of the DM would be a catastrophe for the HE player, as he'd have invested almost a third of his points in him. Of course, there's the possibility that a surviving Sun Dragon could rampage through the remainder of the opponent's units.


Additional Mages
Part Three

Again, I'm of the opinion that having more than one Mage on the High Elven side would unbalance the list, especially if you make a comparative study as to the costs involved as opposed to other lists. Magic heavy for High Elves, at this scale, would be two Mages with paraphernalia. A third would be limited to self-generated PD, and random selection of spells.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#220 Post by Musashi »

Converting Witch Elves

Have the five piece command group - question is, what do I convert them into?



Balanced List

Still working the way through a 1500 point list that tries to create a balanced High Elven force.


Noble
Part Four

High Elves have some nifty, but a little overpriced, gadgets, and giving them to a noble so that he can go and inflict harm unto the enemy would seem a logical progression. Since at least one character slot must go to a Mage, there are two left open.

The Noble can fulfil the role of the general, allowing a leadership base of nine, as compared to that of the Mage's eight. It has been proved time and time again that a single point can mean the difference between failure and success, and taking the Noble would automatically make him the general, as per the BRB. That would be a hundred points bonus, if the enemy could destroy him, which would make gallivanting around outside the protection of the elite forces a rather dubious proposition.

This could be solved by using two Nobles, allowing one to anchor himself in the bosom of his colleagues, and the other to roam around and be a general nuisance.

Yet that leadership bonus would only be really necessary for Core troops and RBT(s). Cavalry and skirmishers would be expected to operate independently and the Mage should not be placed in such a position where he would need to use it.

Magic protection wouldn't be overly important, as the fifty points magic item allocation you'd want to maximize his killing potential. That would mean Reaver Bow, Star Lance or the White Sword. Add ToL and any Hero level character would be unlikely to survive a challenge.

Offensive or defensively equipped, the Noble has a variety of options, both magical and mundane, that would make him a threat. The question is, is he absolutely necessary to a balanced force, and the conclusion is no, since other units could create the same amount of damage as he would.

Therefore, we do not need to include a noble as either a general, or as an inflicter of damage. But there's his role as BSB to be considered.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#221 Post by JTFCUP »

Wildling04 wrote: Let me explain it better. As mentioned before, I play both armies. My dark elf army is considerably more balanced than others that I see. I take a lord (not the unkillable), a bsb, a level 2 caster, spears, corsairs, blackguard, cold one knights, shades, crossbows, 2 units of dark riders, and a hydra. (Note: 2x core infantry blocks, a single hydra, and a relatively modest shooting and magic phase for DE). Against HE, does ASF worry me? Not at all. It really only affects my infantry blocks and 2 of those mitigate or cancel it (with the banner and an assassin). Put me on the other side of the table, and I have several concerns.
I think that high elves list with 2 units of DPs (one with a SoB and a BSB with Battle Banner) suported by 2 units of SM would be a serious concern for everyone. And that`s less than 800pts. Nobody is gonna shoot the SM. With a Star Dragon you get a smaller army but you gonna get charged in the second turn and that`s too short time to kill the BSB and a Star Dragon, not to mention the rest of the army. And without a Star Dragon you gotta fear an Archmage and a mage which can choose the right spells for your army (seerstaf + SW) and a big block of fear causing 4+ ward save hard to kill unit (the PG). When you have a battle banner all you need to do is survive until the CR and most units will break. Only concern in your list is the black guard if they have the ASF banner. But they are infantry so are rather slow.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#222 Post by Musashi »

7800 Points - 3K Imps/2.4 Slanns/2.4 HElves

Got summoned to another multi-player game, the opposition being a combined force of Vamps 3.9K and WoCs 3.9K. As usual, I took a supporting role with the HElves, but was apprehensive since the other two wanted to be involved in the magic phase. It was agreed that Balthasar Gelt (ignores first miscast) and a Slann (transfers it/Fire), together a second level apprentice (Heavens) and two Skink sidekicks, one with the Engine of the Gods, can come along.

Teclis (High) decided he needed a vacation and popped up with his retinue, which included a Sophomore Apprentice (High, Fires, Undoing; Trickster's, Scroll), the BSB/BB/DASh/BESt/Lance and the renowned moderator Caradryan. I decided to let the Mage keep his original spells, since his only purpose was to attempt Drain Magic, just like his mentor, and with double 1s on for both Teclis and the BoS, that's all they did in the first round, the Apprentice forcing the Vamps to use up a scroll.

The opposition was fairly light in arcane matters, consisting of a sole Slanneshi second level sorcerer, a fourth level Vamp (joined the Banshee), a second level Vamp General, second level BSB, one necromancer third on Cart, and the other one wandering somewhere. A Cursed Prince joined the party. Wulfrik and Valkyria (whatever) came along. I expect to lose at least one RBT to his group of marauders.

I set up three RBTs on two separate hills, joined by two cannons and a Volley Gun; squeezed in a Chickenhawk at 2405 points.

Standard two 10 man Spears, one with full command, one with champ and muse. The first one is probably a slight mistake, since it isn't an anvil, nor carrying the Warbanner - I am a little rusty.

DPs with SoB/HoF - 5 (joined by the BSB)
SMs with AoL/LB - 12 (originally intended against Banshee and company - Banshee is on their right flank, this bunch in the centre)
SMs with ToL - 7 champ and muse (character assassin)
PGs with BoS/Skeinsliver - 5 rear guard
RBTs - 3
Turkey - 1

Naturally, we had the first move, and the line shuffled forward, the High Elves were in the second wave, so they shuffled less forward; the Magic Phase went surprisingly well for the first round, the Banshee found it's social circle reduced to one friend, don't plan on allowing him to increase it again. Drain Magic was activated.

We were in the middle of the shooting phase when some news stopped the game, and hope to resume it today.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#223 Post by geoguswrek »

Musashi wrote:7800 Points -
a fourth level Vamp (joined the Banshee),
Vamps can't join ethereal units unless they too are ethereal. (just checking you knew this one, people make this mistake.

DPs with SoB/HoF - 5 (joined by the BSB)
SMs with AoL/LB - 12 (originally intended against Banshee and company - Banshee is on their right flank, this bunch in the centre)
i'd have these banners the other way round, SM's are more likely to be panicked, and the removal of frenzy/hatred is more annoying on SM than DP.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#224 Post by Musashi »

Vampie level four is ethereal, and keeps forcing us to use magic to kill him off; since at last count he was busy chasing Balthasar, he ho longer remains a priority.

Valkyria received a cannonball in the guts somewhere during the second turn, which was a pity, since I targetted her with two RBTs in the first turn and wounded her once, and had her in the sights of all three then. We had a cathedral and a Beastarium (basically a cage with 3 Dragon Ogres) along our deployment line and that cramped the first wave. The Elves are now in the third wave together with the Imperial Standard Bearer and his escort, who managed to flub a terror check. Volley gun blew up, the Pigeon came home to roost. I sniped the Corpse Cart and its Necromancer; Cube of Darkness ended the second magic phase; Banshee and Blood Knights were wiped out and Scrolls were used to ensure they couldn't resurrect, which was a little tough anyway with Drain Magic in play.

We're in the third turn, combat phase; Wulfrik is biding his time while almost the entire is focussed on the rear, not that it makes that much difference as there was no space in front anyway; Wulfrik declared he is unfond of my BSB, and I sandwiched him in the primary SM unit. In the meantime, my Apprentice Mage managed to miscast and get invited to visit the warp; hasn't effected the magic phase much since his main function was the Scroll (used), and the Trickster item (which I forgot to use). The Slann miscast in the second round and transferred it to one of the Vamps. Skink/EotG died when he attacked the centre of WoC line, joined by Karl Franz and company; Steam Tank wiped out the front rank of another Chaos Warrior unit.

Magic on the whole is working well for us, we've neutralized the opposing magic phases and decimating their spellcasters; with the Mage dead, the BoS die accrue to Teclis; as mentioned before, if there was some way to take Dispel Scrolls without having a caddy; I could have just brought Teclis.

The DPs were tasked as a (rather expensive) suicide force, in the event that my allies were in a situation where their intervention could swing the balance, or distract any direct threat to Teclis; At the moment, they are loitering in the back. Our right flank looks weak, and might break; the left flank looks strong, but unfortunately the units employed there seem to be out of position to bring any weight to bear on the conflict.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#225 Post by geoguswrek »

How long does a turn take with one million levels of magic each? (plus 30 warmachines?)
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#226 Post by Musashi »

If the above question is aimed at this particular game:

1. Drain magic nerfs the Vampires, so their player's decisions are accelerated because of the additional dice that has to be used to attempt each spell; turns out that the WoC player forgot he had the Book of Secrets, with Drain Magic he didn't bother to use it.

2. I usually concentrate only on one spell, now that Teclis has exclusive access to the BoS, one additional one depending on the situation; I let my colleagues make their own decisions unless something is glaringly wrong, prefaced with, "So what do you think is the most dangerous unit at this moment." It's a target rich environment, so our magic phase is a quarter of an hour (depending on running commentary and BRB/Codex consultations).

3. WoCs dragged along a Mercenary cannon which managed to take off two wounds on the Steam Tank, currently dealing with the attentions of some Pteradons. The Volley Gun blew to bits in the second round, dealing out 28 die of damage, with surprisingly little effect, one cannon pigeon bombed itself and reduced it's crew to one plus the mechanic/engineer, the other doesn't do too badly. For some reason, all of us are adept at judging artillery distances - might be the DNA. The three RBTs priorities are lone characters, dangerous non-ethereal units; the action's too faraway for flank shots.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#227 Post by Musashi »

Fourth and Final Round

It was past midnight and we decided to pack it in.

The Giant Turkey positioned it self for an attack at the (then) major furball in the middle of the table; this was a mistake. Our side had a tendency to be at odds with one another, and despite my asking if it were alright to attack three times, and receiving an ascent, the Empire player disowned this. The Turkey died at the hands of a Slaanesh Chariot, and caused the combat resolution to have a negative one. Karl Franz rolls a double six and gets wiped out. The Ancient stegadon stays put at one wound. Overall, the first line gets more or less wiped out, the Steam Tank gets surrounded.

In the meantime, the second line is breached, and my main unit of Sword Masters is attacked from behind by fifteen skeletons and a Necromancer, in front they face Wulfrik and nineteen marauders. Well, not quite, the RBTs thinned the ranks by seven, and I reformed them 8-4 and send the BSB back to the DPs, who reformed to seal any further breaches in the second line. Wulfrik was smacked around by the SM champion and another six marauders bit the dust, who then fled; the Necromancer left this earthly existence, together with four skeletons; combat resolution reduced the total to five and the Sword Masters reformed 7-5, having won CR. In the meantime, the Varghulf tried to make his way down the right flank and exposed himself to the RBTs, who won't be getting a chance to shoot.

The magic phase was uneven, Courage of Aenarion was dispelled and Teclis rolled double six and double one for Drain Magic, which didn't seem like a good omen. Surprisingly, a Necromancer rolled a double one as well (with two die) and Teclis had a free go with Unmaking, which the opponent failed to dispel with four die - the Drakenhof Banner went, though my colleagues would have been wiser choosing the one that gave +1 to hit; On the up side, the Temple Guard remained more or less in tact but the Greatswords ran and died. The rest of the magic phase went well, considering the VC player was spamming, but Teclis dispelled everything.

At the end of the match, the Empire ws more or less wiped out, the Lizzies lost at least a third and the High Elves remained in tact with the exception of the Mage that miscast. WoC lost around half, and the Vamps at least a third. Assuming the match continued for another two rounds, it might have gone either way, as the majority of the remaining WoC units wouldn't reach the main area of conflict and the third line consisting entirely of fresh High Elves were in range to reinforce the second line.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#228 Post by Musashi »

BSB
Part Five

Why would a High Elven army need a BSB?

1. Re-roll failed Combat Resolution results.
Shows a lack of confidence in your troops' ability to handle their opposing numbers; however, better safe then sorry.

2. Add a bonus to Combat Resolution
The BSB is a magnet for attacks, and 100 points can be crucial at this level of play; this option should be carefully considered before placing the BSB in danger.

3. Bearer of either the Battle Banner or that of the World Dragon.
It's meant to be a balanced list, so the Battle Banner is out; not enough magic to justify the World Dragon. The other Standards can be utilized by the elite unit ensigns, so this function is not required.

So placing the BSB in the frontline is not part of the overall strategy, but he should still be properly equipped.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth - no.
Folariath's Robe - no,
Ring of Fury - in preference to the Radiant Gem, maybe.
Cloak of Beards - situational, so no.
Pendant of Vengeance - ditto.
Talisman of Loec - favoured.

Golden Crown of Atrazar - not really.
Loremaster's Cloak - hope not to be facing a battle where I have to worry about that much magic.
Talisman of Saphery - no.
Sacred Incense - maybe.

Star Lance - favoured.
Reaver Bow - favoured.
The White Sword - risky.
Blade of Sea Gold - strength 4 and three attacks, not convincing.
Foe Bane - no.
Sword of Striking - maybe.

Enchanted Shield - maybe.
Armour of Protection - maybe.
Golden Shield - maybe.
Armour of Stars - no.
Armour of Heroes - I have never been tempted to try this, which means I'll have to get around to it.
Temakador's Gauntlets - no.
Shadow Armour - he's not going away from the bosom of the Elven army.
Armour of Caledor - favoured, but may have to substituted by ordinary Dragon Armour.
Helm of Fortune - favoured.
Dragonscale Shield - no.
Mark of the Merlord - combined with the Reaver Bow, but situational.

Mounts become an interesting option, as Tiranoc Chariots and barded steeds both provide increased armour saves, with the horse he can hide in a unit and with the chariot he can impact the battle. If you're wondering what is our opinion on the Turkey, he looks delicious.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1AfDgZttw]Sunrise[/url]
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#229 Post by SpellArcher »

Guardian Phoenix FTW!
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#230 Post by Musashi »

Rare Selections
Part Six

It's supposedly balanced, so one Great Eagle and one RBT.


Core Selections
Part Seven

Again, a balanced selection would LSG. I picked a fifteen model unit with full command, as fifteen is just enough to function as an infantry block of three ranks or be used as a gunline of one rank. Optioned shields, and a possible magic banner.


Special Selections
Part Eight

On this one I'm having problems, as you have nine units, with various strengths and weaknesses. It was at this point I realized that you can't make an Elven list that can be either balanced or take on all comers. Or at least, not in 1500 points.

Magic Battery - 5 Phoenix Guard FC with Skeinsliver and Banner of Sorcery

AFV - Lion Chariot

Infiltrators - 5 Shadow Warriors

Manoeuvre element - 5 Dragon Princes with Ellyrion Banner and Helm of Fortune

Camp followers - 5 Sword Masters
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#231 Post by Musashi »

Managed to persuade a colleague to let me try out a 500 High Elven force against his Dwarves. Agreed to a 4X4 area and distributed a tower and hill on either side, a small hill (cliff edges) and a forest in the middle. He got the hill side and promptly castled with a volley gun on the base, joined by Thunderers, Hammer Carriers and Clanrats on each side. On top of the hill two bolt throwers and Quarrelers.

I deployed 15 LSGs in one rank with the Mage-General in the middle of the table, and gave the Mage Seerstaff, Thunderbolt and Comet. The RBT was in the tower and 5 DPs/OoF/ER on the left aiming for the forest, accompanied by the Lion Chariot. 5 Shadow Warriors were prepositioned in the forest and 5 PGs/BoS/Skeinsliver hid themselves behind the tower. 5 SMs and the BSB/TC/SL/ToL attempted to make their way around the right flank, together with the GE.

Right away I knew it wasn't going to work. This situation called for an additional mage to take advantage of the BoS, which consistently gave me three extra die per round. A Dragon Mage would not have survived when faced with two bolt throwers. The centre was too open, which was why I tried a double flank.

My colleague was a little surprised at my line-up, and I told him that if I really wanted to win, he'd be seeing eight chariots on the field. As I viewed the deployment, I thought that Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks would be perfect, plus a DoW cannon, and calculated that I could have squeezed in another five RoR in the specials, and limited Elven participation to 10 Spears and a Mage. Volund's Venator's, Vespero's Vendetta, Braganza's Besiegers, the Fellowship and Rico's.

Anyway, the SWs popped out and had a go at shooting the volley gun, were wiped out by same; the RBT scored one hit. The Lion Chariot had near misses from the bolt throwers. The DPs moved through the forest. Despite flying into the open, no pot shots were taken at the GE, and the BSB and the SMs snuck their way along the right. Magic was dispelled.

The Thunderers marched forward, as did the Clanrats and the Hammer Carriers; the Quarrelers thinned the ranks of the LSG.

The Lion Chariot charged the Clanrats, but I forgot to mention it caused fear; wiped out five dwarves and the champion struck back in vain; won CR; the DPs moved up in support. The GE tried to move behind the Dwarven lines, an act that he paid for with his life; the BSB swung around the right hill, in his wake came the SMs. The LSG had a try at shooting the Thunderers, hit two, one managed an armour save, and the other received a ward save from the Dwarven BSB. Magic was dispelled again and the RBT scored hits only against the war-machines.

Thunderers and Quarrelers wiped out half the remaining LSGs, the volley gun killed almost every DP and the Champion vamoosed through the forest; the Lion Chariot lost CR and a wound and fled back towards me.

The BSB decided to charge the Thunderers, who pulled up their kilts and fled through the Volley Gun, whose crew decided it was Tea time as well. Magic dispelled. LSG unsuccessfully shot at Hammer Carriers. Lion Chariot and DP Champion successfully made reformation throws (both of us forgot that the Champ wasn't eligible), Lion Chariot gets wounded by Strength 7 bolt. BSB counter attacked by Hammer Throwers, dies and Chariot flees through SMs, who die. LSG down to five plus Mage hightail it to cover of hill. Magic dispelled.

Obviously, on 4x4 not much place for sweeping manoeuvres and not a lot of cover, either. Maybe a power stone for the comet. Limitation of three die didn't help, channeller would have forced my opponent to use up his Dispel Scrolls, and probably would have allowed me attempt to dislodge him from that hill by magic.

Could have had the BSB equipped with Sacred Incense and reinforced the SWs to ten models, with dual RBTs and Mages wrecking destruction over the Dwarven heads, but the Volley gun has automatic hits.

Orcs are next up.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1AfDgZttw]Sunrise[/url]
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#232 Post by Musashi »

Cheap Special Selections
75-85 Points


Cheap, of course, is relative.


1. 5 Shadow Warriors - 80 points

Yes, but under protest. Their primary function is to prevent your opponent inconveniencing you by getting unallocated real estate that could threaten your flank or hinder your advance. Their secondary ones is to take potshots, though with BS4/S3 you really have to get really lucky to score; mage hunting, though most people tend to have those safely ensconced somewhere else, as well as war machines, which have to be placed to take advantage of LoS. March blocking has some merit, though deflecting charges through a forest has more. While I still feel 80 points is a lot, if you could keep at least a model alive by the end of the game, it might be worth it.


2. Tiranoc Chariot - 85 points

Yes - but preferably in pairs; primary function is to support other units, secondary ones include giving the enemy something to shoot at, making him nervous about moving his troops within the 18" charge unless he is confident about their ability to absorb the impact damage. Alas, TC's resilience isn't as robust, meaning you have to make your way around terrain, avoid units with Strength 7 hits. While hunting expeditions have been mentioned, war machine ones can be regarded similar to those stalking bear, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. Character hunts usually happen after you breakthrough the enemy line and usually for enemy mages on foot; someone may be confident enough to place a spellcaster in the midst of a unit on the frontline, you might be able to kill off a hero with 2 S3/Ws3|S4/Ws4, and wound a Lord choice, and get back your points, but what may be tactically attractive isn't always strategically wise. I'm still waiting to wound something with the two bows.


3. 5 Phoenix Guard - 75 points

No - primary function for me is as a magic battery and holder of the Skeinsliver (which I'm beginning to think isn't worth it with only one Mage), secondary functions Mage bunker and rear guard, Full command raises the total cost to 180 points. While a 4+ Ward and Fear could ensure nothing harms the unit, Strength 4 and ASF doesn't guarantee kills; then again, the Ward Saves might fail. The Phoenix Guard performs best when in force.


4. 5 White Lions - 75 points

Yes - primary function would be armour crackers and speed bump, secondary one would moving through forests worrying the opponent's flank. While their extra AS against shooting is nice, with only five models it's not a risk I would take voluntarily, but soft cover given by the trees usually means that they should arrive more in less in tact to their staging area.


5. 5 Sword Masters - 75 points

Yes - primary function lawn mower; they have no secondary function. Of course, they have to be screened against missiles, but almost all your opponents wouldn't take their threat lightly. This size is ideal for making a flank or frontal attack, but if the opposing unit is larger than ten US1 models, it would be advisable to multi charge with another unit in support. Their problem is their fragility, as even a Strength 3 missile weapon is a threat to be avoided.
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[color=red]Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander[/color]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdU1F54FEOU]Crowbot_Jenny[/url]
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#233 Post by Musashi »

Self-made Special Characters
Limitations


I was considering creating my own character that would go beyond the normal bounds imposed on custom-made ones as visualized in our army book, but the question would be, what would be the boundaries?

High Elves are blessed in that these have more or less been established in the persons of Tyrion and Teclis, no character can have more of an effect on combat than Tyrion, no one can out-magic Teclis.

Movement
It may be possible to achieve 6, but that character would be unique.

Weapon Skill
There probably are no more than a dozen living High Elves who have reached the pinnacle of 8. Eltharion and Imrik are named.

Ballistic Skill
Even after thousands of years, Alith Anar can't better 7. Even Tyrion has reached that, and he's not renowned for his dart throwing ability.

Strength
Korhil and all other combat characters can pump 4.

Toughness
No Elf seems to be able to escape his fragile constitution of 3.

Wounds
Tyrion has four, but it's unlikely any other Elf can have more than 3.

Initiative
No one is as fast as Tyrion, except Assassins, though there may be a handful of Asur who have reached 9.

Attacks
No mortal appears to have more than 4 attacks in their profile.

Leadership
No one can doubt the moral of the citizens of Ulthuan, who are led by inspired leaders with 10.

Magic
The most additional Power Dice and/or Dispel Dice any High Elven Archmage can generate on his own would be 1-2; perhaps upto two Arcane items, as well, though this should not include Dispel Scrolls and/or Power Stones.

Mounts
It's unlikely there is a barrier to riding any mount, outside of those of common sense.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#234 Post by Musashi »

1500 Point Balanced Force
High Elves versus Lizards


Turns out it wasn't Orcs, but a Lizzie force that appeared over the horizon.

I didn't fancy my chances against a stegadon, but it didn't appear - instead there were 2 Skink priests, a Scar veteran, nine Cold One Cavalry, twenty Saurus infantry, ten Chameleons, Skink skirmishers and three Razordons. He went first.

Terrain was like a diamond, a tower and a hill opposing each other, and two swamps in no-man's land. I took over the tower and emplaced the RBT on top, joined by my Mage. The Chameleons hid themselves in the swamp on the left, and I placed 15 LSGs in one rank and the five Shadow Warriors on my left flank. Skink skirmishers were behind the Chameleons. COO were left of (my) centre, Saurus in the centre and Razordons right of centre. The two Skink priests decided to sunbath on the hill. I placed DPs left of centre, Lion Chariot in the centre, five SMs left of centre with full command (Lion Banner, and Champion, since I planned to throw them at the COO, on reflection should have added another SM instead of upgrade to Champion) and the BSB.

I hid the PGs behind the tower.

Thunderbolts rained down on my DPs, and two died. I shuffled them to the right. Chameleons erupted out of the swamp and killed three LSGs, they were counter-attacked by the SWs at 4.5" and combat stalemated as attrition took hold, mostly on the Chameleon's side. The Skink swarm suffered at the long distance archery of the LSGs, probably a third or a half dropped dead. The RBT failed to score a hit on any priest. The Lizards advanced about 6".

Got three extra PDs, had originally exchanged Vaul's for Shield. Shield was dispelled, Drain was scrolled, but Fury wiped the smile partially off one Razordon.

The Lizards advanced another six inches, the Chameleons lost some more members, the Skink priest miscast on Thunderbolt and the magic phase ended and he lost a wound. Fate would have it that the RBT took the other one away. The Fury was dispelled, Shield was dispelled, Drain failed. The skinks were arrowed to one survivor, who decided to stick around.

I declared charges by the DPs, WLC and the BSB on the COO; just to be on the safe side, I asked my opponent if he was planning to runaway. That taunt ensured that he would stay put. Total five impact hits, and despite targeting the general with five attacks, he survived, though the champion didn't. CR was minus four or five and he ran. Everyone pursued and caught up.

The Saurus troop advanced, the Razordons destroyed the BSB's ride, who in turn were wiped out by the mage's Fury. The remaining skink priest managed to Thunderbolt the DPs due to miscast in dispelling (five die), killing two and the survivor ran. The SWs finally finished off the Chameleons and the four survivors pincushioned the remaining skink. The Mage managed to miscast and take a wound (with three die). In the next round he managed to repeat this feat and died. In the meantime, the last Skink died to five successfully hits from the RBT.

Did I mention I forgot to deploy the Turkey?

I threw the the Sword Masters at the Saurus, killed three, lost CR, fled and were run down. The Saurus ran into the LSGs. They eventually lost and died as well.

The Saurus turned around and were hit by the SWs on the flank and the WLC - the BSB carefully made his way within 12" of the WLC; the WLC killed three Lizards, lost a wound, lost CR but stayed. To cut a long story short, attrition ensured that the WLC won, as the BSB finally attacked.

Nothing remained from the Lizards and with around six hundred points difference, I won.

I won because my opponent probably miscalculated.
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#235 Post by SpellArcher »

Alith Anar is I9 which could be quite handy vs ASF.
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#236 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Ever notice how our dark cousins' bolt thrower has magazines of bolts and ours just puts 6 arrows onto a hard back and fires them into the sunset?

Doesnt seem like much of an "advancement" from the old model, although i do prefer the current.
Hey, does this cloth smell like chloroform?
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#237 Post by Musashi »

RBTs

General Commentary

Not much can be written about them that hasn't been covered extensively before.

They are practical, but not cheap, in fact overcosted. Their two main weaknesses are the inability to deal with hordes or ultra heavily protected units. While single shots ignore armour, a Ward Save and/or Regeneration can negate that. They are a real threat to anything between those two extremes.

As with anything High Elvish, you have to pick your targets, preferably in advance. Basically, I tend to prioritize on what can reach me first and cause damage, so it usually goes target of opportunity, large flyer, small flyer, fast cavalry, heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, light infantry. This is not set in stone, as a target of opportunity could be a lone Mage wandering around by himself or the silly bugger wheeling his cavalry to give me a flank shot.

It's also meant to soften up certain hard targets that the RBT can't really destroy within the time frame, but that you have other units in place that can (or not that easily, which is where the softening up part comes in).


Upgrades

Dwarves have Runes, Elves have Runes - can Elves inscribe them to function as magical conduits?

They should be able to. What we need are upgrades that can increase the Strength of our shots, distance, turn the bolts into fire, reroll hits and/or wounds and other nifty little effects. I don't expect these upgrades to be cheap (except fire, that's 5 points), but it would give pause to our opponents, when considering about deploying their premier units out in the open. Whether we actually upgrade our RBTs is to a certain extend immaterial, the potential threat is enough.

Another variant is some Elven mechanic has figured out how replace certain parts with stronger and/or more flexible material, which could bring similar benefits, and remembers to bring along a brazier and napalm.
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Lethalis
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#238 Post by Lethalis »

I think the whole "Dwarfs have runes, so do we so why don't we upgrade ours to explode with 2D6 S4 hits?" line of thinking is a bit too simplified. Dwarfs are still the very best runesmiths and they capture a different form of magic, or at least bend it differently than Elves would.
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SpellArcher
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#239 Post by SpellArcher »

The ability to volley fire is maybe an upgrade to compare to Runes and a very good one to be fair, though obviously we pay substantially for it. Fluff-wise there's a case for fire etc..
Keith
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Re: Observations on High Elven Wargaming

#240 Post by Keith »

One thing to mention about dwarf BT vs. HE ones is that the dwarf ones compete with their best combat units for slots, ours do not.
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