Observations on High Elven Wargaming

[SpellArcher]

As I recall lance and bow cav worked very well in combination with lighter horse archers (Romans, Mongols, Turks).

If you could justify the fluff a bow would easily transform the Silver Helms. Not sure it's so simple for Empire. Not keen on Outriders personally. I love the idea of repeating handguns but giving them to a unit dilutes the specialness for me.

[Musashi]

I wish all those who celebrate the Chinese New Year best wishes, and may the Year of the Ox bring you prosperity.

Yes, it can.

[Musashi]

Well, the Dark Elf FAQ is out, and I'm reminded of the following:

General Dodonna: The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet. It's defenses are designed around a direct, large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense.
Gold Leader: Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub fighters going to be against that?
General Dodonna: Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the plans provided by Princess Leia has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station. But the approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station. Only a precise hit will set off a chain reaction. The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.
Wedge Antilles (Red 2): That's impossible! Even for a computer.
Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
General Dodonna: Then man your ships. And may the Force be with you.

[cisse]

Err?

What exactly do you mean?

[Prince_Asuryan]

I think he's refencing the Ring of Hotek? Maybe the Pnedant...

[Arondight]

It's the Shadestar!!

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=49050

(-ASF+4 heroes with GW and GW on the shades (all have hatred)
-MR 3+All spells cast miscast on all doubles withing 12"
-100 Armour Piercing shots per turn at BS 4 (or 50 at BS 5)
-1/2 enemy BS and -1 to hit when shootin using BS weapons
- immune to psychology
- one assassin probably with KB gear)

Sorry to be off-topic again.

[cisse]

Aaaaah okay. I heard of that, but didn't make the connection.

[DarkTyrany22]

It's the Shadestar!!

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=49050

(-ASF+4 heroes with GW and GW on the shades (all have hatred)
-MR 3+All spells cast miscast on all doubles withing 12"
-100 Armour Piercing shots per turn at BS 4 (or 50 at BS 5)
-1/2 enemy BS and -1 to hit when shootin using BS weapons
- immune to psychology
- one assassin probably with KB gear)

Sorry to be off-topic again.

That list is illegal, and there is no assassin. There also aren't quite that many RxB shots, and one of the heros does not have a GW.

There are much nastier forms of the list.

[Elven Prince]

"Chuckles".
Found this topic on Warseer, everyone has his own version of Death star. Enjoy!

[Musashi]

I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread, or just add this on to an existing one, but I thought I'd address the concern that even though the fluff says we're the greatest magic-using race in the Warhammer world, we don't seem to own this particular phase.

For years I just establish Seer council to try and control the flow of combat on the table (BTW our group usually won't field armies below 3000 points and usually we like playing two a side with anywhere from 6000-10000 points per side; to balance it off we limit the game usually to 5 turns).

This worked perfectly for me, since I preferred to castle in a corner using a combination of magic, missile and terrain bottlenecks to slow and decimate the opponent. Every fourth or fifth game I'd load up on DP and Dragons and blitz the enemy.

I disliked the new book when it appeared late last year - it ruined my primary strategy. The new army book for the Vampire Counts didn't lighten my mood. And I doubt that the upcoming Demon AB will be doing High Elves any favours, either

It has pretty much forced me to take a good look at our supposed magical superiority. And I came up with a fairly surprising conclusion.

High Elves OWN the magic phase with any army list over 3000 points. It doesn't matter if you are playing a 5000 or 25000 point game. The chance for a miscast increases exponentially, the more you let loose those wizardly bolts. It was a 7000 point game with 4000 points of the new Vampire Counts and 3000 points of Chaos Tzeench facing 3000 points (me) and 4000 points Lizards (extreme combat heavy) that convinced me.

I decided to include Teclis and an Archmage (Vortex Shard), Mage (Seer Staff) and Dragon Mage (Silver Wand). Plus 3 Dispel scrolls. The Skinks recruited 4 Shamans.

We faced a dozen magic-users (twelve mages, including one with the Wand of Change, Manfred from Carstein, and other bloodsucking members of the undead).

Despite what would appear an overwhelming inferiority, our side won the magic exchange. We had the initiative, and while the Skinks and my mages attempted direct damage and the Beast Cowers, my archmage tried Drain Magic each round (except the third) with 4 dice and had it denied by Dispel scrolls each time. Teclis with 5 dice succeeded in each round to bring it about with total energy (except the third - there I released the Vortex shard and ended the opponents' magic phase).

It was in this battle that I noted the difference an additional 3 made to the casting throw. Suddenly every spell the enemy wanted to cast needed an additional die. There were four miscasts (none with any serious consequences, unfortunately), which made me regret not including the Trickster's Pendant.

The end result was a draw. Elves suffered few casualties, mostly as a result of trying to prop up the Lizards. The Lizardmen player set the wrong priorities for his units and Shamans (those Banshee led groups are tough to deal with, if you haven't got a magic weapon in that sector or haven't blasted them with magic missiles).

So what did I conclude from this battle?

1. Teclis, Archmage (Book of Hoeth) and Archmage (Vortex Shard), supported by Mage (Trickster's Pendant) and Mage (Seer Staff) can almost totally control the opponent's magic phase, regardless of the number of points in play (in this case, that would a minimum of 4000). Theoretically at least 2 castings of Drain Magic should succeed per round. If you think minus three is tough, try minus six to cast.

2. This strategy could be termed the Spoiler, because it would pretty much deny the opponent any attempt of making meaningful use of his magic potential, without the commiserate additional risks.

3. In the event that Magic Phase Denial is not required (such as when facing a Khorne or Dwarven army), the Elves have a sufficient wide palette of spells to attempt to exploit other tactical weaknesses (or just blast any regiments/monsters/characters that had the temerity to come within 24" of my magic users, tactically preferable).

4. As you will note from the above, this strategy is extremely scalable (basically, it's like Google only requiring one mainframe, regardless of how much storage they have or want to add). Once you have these five basic characters, all additional characters can be optimized for combat.

The upshot is, that while High Elves cannot dominate the Magic Phase, we can pretty much control it, and we're flexible enough to deal with any unexpected circumstances.

I thought I'd drag this post up from the dregs of the past, since it looks like I'll be working on revising it, considering the new developments. Which means the Gnomes will be on hold for a while.

[Musashi]

Caledorian Hymn

From the halls of Mazdamundi,
To the shores of Araby;
We will fight our country's battles
In the air, on land, and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And with honour one never toys;
We are proud to claim the title
Of Caledorian Dragon Boyz.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to sun's last glance;
We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a lance;
In the snow of far-off northern lands
And where the sun annoys;
You will find us always on the job
The Caledorian Dragon Boyz.

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And have never lost our nerve;
If White Lions and Sea Guard
Ever look on Heaven's joys;
They will find the streets are guarded
By Caledorian Dragon Boyz.

[Si'anelle of Avelorn]

Ha ha, very clever

[Musashi]

Thank you.

Something amusing that I've also come up with:


We're the Battling Bastards of Nagarythe

No Ma, no Pa, no Uncle Malekith

[Musashi]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more,
Or close the wall up with our Asur dead!
In peace there's nothing so becomes an Elf
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our pointy ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger:
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood

[Musashi]

I decided to time this post with the one hundred thousand's post in the Warhammer Fantasy Forum.

Playing the latest campaign, Ulthuan in Flames, has been interesting on a number of levels. One thing, though, that becomes very obvious, is that your armies created in this campaign tend not to work like the one's you create for the tabletop.

Another sad fact is the rather continuous losing streak my army has been cursed with, though I suspect I may have gotten the hang of this particular aspect of the game; we shall have to see if I get the correct formula.

[Musashi]

Good news, my current losing streak has ended. The bad news would be that the army configuration is not logical, or my opponent had a rather weak one himself.

If I wasn't going with the Nipponese theme, I'd rename my forces Ulthuan Sacred Maritime Corps. Or the Fire Brigade.

I'm still waiting for my Mage to be achieve the Archmage status, apparently 99 forced enlightenments aren't sufficient to qualify; if by 105 he still doesn't manage it, you have to seriously wonder what's wrong.

[Musashi]

The good news is that with 111 kills my character is solid if unspectacular performer and now rates as an Archmage, though I don't really see much increase in the number of heretics he's incinerated per battle, so it's probably an empty honour.

The bad news is that my influence points seem to disappear into a black hole. After two losses in a double turn, I should have been able to replace my dead troops and still have two points extra, and all I seem to be doing is running in place.

Advice for anyone thinking of starting this campaign at this late stage: avoid archers; reavers didn't bring me much; reinforce chariots always to their maximum, a dead chariot is a net loss of two points, but seem to make the most kills; I suspect that a dead RBT is a net loss of 3 points; Maiden Guard are a little fragile.

[Musashi]

I'd really like to start on revising my Observations on the HE Magic Phase, but unfortunately I can't give it the concentration it deserves at the moment, since half my hardware packed it in, and I have to wonder if I can transition the server to Linux or not (or even if it's worth getting a new one based on Phenom II x3).

Anyway, one or two may have wondered where my army is actually in the campaign; while personally I wouldn't mind announcing it, operational security considerations prevent that, since the whole Battle Group moves there as well. As to whether this actually makes any difference in the strategic scheme of things, I can't judge nor know, and would be rather pleased if towards the end of the campaign someone from the Forces of Chaos would enlighten me.

I think I have definitely broken my losing streak, I gave the Turtle ample opportunity to prove itself (sixteen times) and my conclusion is that it is a bust for my troop mix. I'm not sure how you can have a massacre without spilling some blood, but live and learn.

[Musashi]

It's been a while since I did a cursory battle report and analysis. Yesterday, I started a battle with 3800points of High Elves prepositioned in a corner, with a rive and three bridges crossing slightly diagonally the tabletop. 3800 points of Dwarves marched along their ancient road which went through the midle lengthwise. We faced Chaos Warriors and Vampires.

Each side had control of the bridge closest to their lines. Considering the opposition, I went for Teclis, AM/BoH, DM, Caradryan, Korhil, Mage, BSB/DASh/BESt/Lance/BB. Discovered in deployment I was two over the limit and removed Korhil and the Mage (considering the effect of the DM so far, I probably should have removed him).

Cannon, Golgfag's Ogres, GE and three RBTs were Rare; three Spears CM and the third FAE with War Banner, 10 men each; three Lion Chariots, 15 men Phoenix Guard CSM/BoS/Skeinsliver, 15 men Sword Masters CSM/ToL/SoB and 12 men Sword Masters CSM/AoL/Lion Banner (for any Banshees that may have turned up).

Two RBTs were deployed in the Woods that was in the middle of my zone, the Phoenix Guard with Teclis and Caradryan as well, facing me, awaiting the arrival of Wulfric the Wanderer, with a Spear Unit slightly offset to their right (and my left) and the 15 men Swordmasters with the AM/BoH and the BSB closer to the table edge and facing slight angled towards the enemy - Wulfric turned up by the second round with around 27 friends and because of deployment rules and desperate attempt to get at Teclis, fielded them 4 wide (otherwise he would have been forced to attack either the Spears, the Sword Masters or both). Wulfric got a warm recept from Teclis with Fires of the Phoenix, the AM with Fury of Khaine which wiped out half, Spears, GE, DM and Sword Masters redeployed along their flanks and back, but it wasn't necessary since the PG seven wide finished off the front ranks, Caradryan took and gave a wound to Wulfric, and Wulfric lost CR and ran.

In the meantime, the enemy had the first turn, despite our plus two (the Dwarf threw a 1 and was countered by a four); the VCs got a double six on Curse of Ancient Years (I think) and half our units lost a wound, including the Dragon and the GE, the Cannon, Golgfag's Ogres and one of the Spears. Golgfag and two LCs were deployed facing west towards the bridge closest to me, one LC in the general direct of the middle bridge, the Cannon right next of the corner where the river touched the edge of the table, the 12 man Swordmasters next to him, an RBT next to them and two Spears close to the lower bridge.

The enemy, as expected, swarmed towards these three crossings, with a bunch of Spirit hosts (12 points strong) materializing on our side of the river, in the middle, and awaiting reinforcements to cross over. Despite the fact that the bridges were six inches across, getting 7600 points over them resulted in a significant blockage.

On my side, the Spears were redeployed towards the centre, each flanking a bridge, the Swordmasters reformed to bring a wider southern flank to the lower bridge and Golgfag moved towards the lower bridge to become the primary forward defender, clearing the way for the LC behind him to move towards the middle bridge.

The enemy sent over Cursed Knights (ethereally over the river to neutralize the LCs and hit the SM and RBT simultaneously). They were ten strong and the Cursed Prince had armour that removed ASF from the SMs, which resulted in the loss of one RBT, two SMs; the LC chewed up four of them, even without impact hits. They won by one, which reduced that unit to five. Teclis got into the act and removed the Armour, but left the Sword of Kings; needless to say there wasn't anything left, when the second LC hit the Cursed Knights and the Sword Masters disposed of the Cursed Prince.

The second wave consisted of a four unit bat swarm hitting an LC the RBT and the Swordmasters simulataneously; the bats evaporated. Golgfag got wiped out to a single wound and ran (he was targetted by six Chaos Knights, they pursued and ran into my Spears unit and faced north, their backsides conveniently vulnerable to my two LCs, BTW, its the fourth turn and I get to move). Some Marauder cavalry are in the third wave, but I suspect my slower SMs can take care of them.

The RBTs in the forest were attacked. The one targeted failed its fera test and ran eight inches (they rallied), though I probably would have made to run for it anyway, since it was six Bat Swarms. The Bat Swarms were attritioned by the DM's breath weapon and remaining RBT. I split the crew and the Batswarms did a second attack on the abandoned (but now recrewed) RBT, killed him and ran into Dwarf musketeers.

Magic, nothing came though on our side that didn't have a double; Teclis at one time threw a double one and six; outside of that one spell, nothing much disturbed us from the enemy, since I always managed at least one Drain Magic.

Shooting, the Cannon killed some Chaos Knights and the Varghulf on my side of the table, but they all made their Ward Saves and regenerated, the RBTs did minor damage here and there.

The Dwarves' Rangers and their war-machines on the Northern side remain heavily embattled and haven't contributed much except by staying alive; the Miners died since they couldn't break their enemy and got overwhelmed by Chaos Warriors (probably chosen). The primary Dwarf units have engaged in the middle. I sent one of my spears to support the Slayers at the middle bridge, and overran into his a lonely vampire, the Spears have since been wiped out, Manfred overrunning into Iron breakers; chances are the Dwarves will hold the centre.

[Musashi]

We decided to quit by the fifth turn and calculated that the Dwarves and the Elves had a deficit of around 800 points, but probably drew.

The Blood Knights and Vampire General (and BSB) managed to kill off the King, his BSB and Hammer Carriers and ran into the Iron Breakers. At this point the situation in the middle stabilized, as I had Teclis remove the Regeneration Banner with Vaul's Unmaking. The situation in the north went from bad to worse.

I had made a mistake not attacking the Chaos Knights in the flank with the Sword Masters and the BSB. Lost the combat resolution against them (the LCs managed 4 impact hits between them) and despite having only two Knights, the Chaos player wiped out the Spears with nine attacks. One LC failed his test and ran out of the game. At this point I had lost two LCs and pretty much came to the conclusion they need more support, just in case. The next combat phase saw the two White Lions kill off one Knight, lost a wound, and the Lions ate the last one. The remaining Sword Masters (south) killed offf the Vargulf who didn't manage to regenerate.

Chaos decided the better part of valour was to run and did so with their remaining marauder cavalry, and the unit containing their two Sorcerers. The DM flew behind them and did his best to burn them to death.

Golgfag died previously to the Whip of Slaanesh, my cannon crew bolted from the Vargulf terror aura, and an RBT crewman lost CR against a Bat Swarm and ran.

Conclusion:

1. Made a mistake playing it safe and not attacking with the BSB/Sword Masters (West).

2. Vampires need to fear us.

3. If playing with both Teclis and/or AM/BoH, it's rather pointless to try and get lesser Mages to cast or activate Bound Magic Items, the enemy has more than enough Dispel Scrolls and Dice available.

[Musashi]

UiF Campaign

My UiF army has been massacred quite a number of times, and I don't look for much improvement in the record. In the beginning, they won a number of times. Probably, I have the wrong army configuration, insufficient numbers combined with the wrong strategy.

Unfortunately, without an exact oversight on how the engine works, I can't get a real feel for it, and I've decided to stop second guessing myself and just take the hardest troops and bunker. Plus a unit of Maiden Guards.

I may even achieve a few more stalemates.

Which brings us into the next topic.


Is it Worthwhile Playing High Elves?
Part One

I think so, or I wouldn't bother showing up regularly on this site. I've always liked the concept of High Elves and GW's presentation is palatable. And you need to feel some sympathy for the army you're playing, in order to form a long term attachment to it.

At the same time, I don't bother playing Wood Elves nor Dark ones. I'm not rustically inclined, so that leaves out our rural cousins. Dark Elves are a more complex problem. I like the backstabbing, but I dislike GW's vision. I have played Drow, and there's something there that I can connect to, but there's insufficient in the Druchii.

A player can play and/or collect High Elves for any number of reasons that are perfectly valid, but once you start playing with them, you start to realize that despite the fluff, High Elves are neither always victorious nor invulnerable, and considering their nature, that does feel wrong.

High Elven armies are like Ferraris, a highly tuned, expensive machine that requires a lot of care and handling for it to perform optimally. Anyone who believes that ASF is a cure-all is going to sorely disappointed, what ASF gives us is a breathing space, which is what we need. Because the secret to our success is timing.

[Musashi]

Ulthuan.net

It does seem that the current age has come to an end, and with it, this thread. Whereas I'd like it to continue, I'm not too sure that many see any relevance in it; resurrection is always a possibility.

And thus, my last post in here before the dawning of a more hopeful era.


How to Play with High Elves Effectively
Part Two

Opinions vary; so does milage.

The ideal High Elven force is around 5000 points, since you can fit in any concept that you like and make it work in the face of almost all opposition. Most games tend to feature HE task forces between two and two and a half thousand points, and that I've always found diffcult to come up with a list that can be reasonably certain of victory. I've always felt that at three thousand points you have a really good chance of winning, at less than this it depends on exactly what is on the table.

High Elven units are extremely specialized - what you choose determines your tactics, and the less units you can place on the table, the more constrained your options become. In it's rawest form, your strategies are three, you blitz, you entrap or you castle.

A blitz strategy commits you to an all out attack on the enemy forces, often a suicidal frontal attack for two reasons - your opponent does not allow you to setup your forces to threaten either his rear or flank; you sacrificed long range missile fire and magic power in order to invest your points in breakthrough units and combat characters. You are operating within a short time frame in order to remove your essential units from out of the usual missile and magic offensive line of fire into combat ASAP, so that they cannot be targeted, and hopefully reach threatening enemy units to eliminate them next.

Once you have breached the enemy line and secured your flanks against attack, mop up operations should be relatively easier, since the HE do enjoy two distinctive advantages, speed and the ability to surgically select the point of contact. The third being the ability to land a large number of attacks within a limited area.

Castling is an attempt to buy time with space, where you'd like your opponent to spend as much time as possible trying to reach your forces, while you hit him with everything, and that anything that reaches your lines will be sufficiently weakened to be dealt with by your forces. Usually, investment is in missile forces and magic, but as HE are rather deficient in these areas when compared to other armies, a serious attempt at terrain placement to prevent a direct approach by the enemy, or to funnel him into one or more location(s) that you can exert or project control over might further along conditions condusive to victory. What you want is to create a situation where enemy forces arrive separately, and thus can be handled piecemeal, in preferably weakened condition. Preplacement or despatch of sacrificial forces to create such delays is advisable.

Entrapment is rather difficult to achieve, since it combines elements of both the offensive blitz and the defensive castling. Ideally, you'd like to attack the enemy's main unit(s) on three sides and would like them to approach in such a manner making this possible. This involves sacrificing a certain amount of initiative, and the deployment of your forces in such a way that they can achieve the primary objective, be mutually supporting and prevent interference by your opponent's other forces.

[Keith]

I still don't get how we are considered to be subpar in magic and shooting.

Consider.

Vampires have no shooting
Dwarves have no magic
Brettonians cannot compete
Both O&G shooting and magic is less reliable.
Short of the double SSC list, tomb kings cannot compete either.
Ogres are Ogres, so they suck.
Skaven have good shooting, but it is easily killed.
Beastmen have no shooting
WoC all tzeentch caster build is really the only way to compete.
Empire is better than us, as cannons are better at taking out war machines than bolt throwers are. A good empire general will take out the BTs on turn one, plus they can get a lot of magic in their list.
New Lizards are probably better than us with Slann and EoTG and skinks and terradons.
Tzeench deamons are better than us, though have trouble with our immune to flaming models.
DE are better than us due to their magic list being very offensive and having better troop shooters.
Wood elves have difficulty getting good offensive magic, so they are below us.

How are we sub-par?

[Baleanoon]

Its fairly simple

HEs pay 100 points for a spearelf with +1 dispel, 1 dd, and 1 pd

Chaos pay 85 points for a Chaos Warrior with 1 dd, and 1 pd

One army can all but ignore 1d6 or even 2d6 s4 magic missles the other cannot. And chaos arguably isn't even up to snuff with the rest if 7th ed.

My daemon army has 2 dispel dice. I take skulltaker in a unit of plaguebearers with 2 Nurgle heralds and the banner of reroll to wound. My Skull taker now kills everything in the game because he has the true asf, you always strike last. you never gain bonuses to flanks. The unit cost 814 figure out how to kill it without irresistable force.

[Keith]

What is your MR on that unit 2?

That unit is good, but your confidence in it is laughable.

You don't need IF to get magic off when you only have 2 dispell dice otherwise.

That said there are plenty of ways to completely crush that unit in hand to hand, or with shooting. A star dragon with his flaming breath weapon will weaken that unit pretty quickly. Its only move 4. No matter how amazing any nurgle infantry block is, it moves 4! I can kill the rest of your army and avoid it. Who cares!




It is also a joke that Warriors of chaos can take magic missles like they are no big thing... First, if you are playing maruaders.. have fun beating a spearman unit (characters not withstanding) If you are playing warriors, Lore of metal completely ruins you. So see how many spirit of the forges your warrior block can take. Talk some sense man.

[Baleanoon]

What is your MR on that unit 2?

That unit is good, but your confidence in it is laughable.

You don't need IF to get magic off when you only have 2 dispell dice otherwise.

That said there are plenty of ways to completely crush that unit in hand to hand, or with shooting. A star dragon with his flaming breath weapon will weaken that unit pretty quickly. Its only move 4. No matter how amazing any nurgle infantry block is, it moves 4! I can kill the rest of your army and avoid it. Who cares!

Well first of all, the unit has MR3, my army also has 2 units of flesh hounds ad 2 units of 6 flamers, believe me when I say I control the movement phase, you'll fight that unit on my terms or not at all and you'll lose only by minor, fair enough. Your 600+ lord can sit on my flank for a turn, he's going to get charged by something and then held by my stubborn 8 unit fair shakes.

Please explain to me how you would crush that unit in hand to hand or with shooting I'd like to hear. It would help me make it better.

A single bloodletter can kill a Prince, so how confident are you really sitting on my flank with my potential charge range of 16, or on average 13? and then 5 strength 5 killing blow attacks?

It is also a joke that Warriors of chaos can take magic missles like they are no big thing... First, if you are playing maruaders.. have fun beating a spearman unit (characters not withstanding) If you are playing warriors, Lore of metal completely ruins you. So see how many spirit of the forges your warrior block can take. Talk some sense man.

20 marauders with MofS shields, and FC, beat a unit of spearmen...so I don't see what you're trying to say... Marauders have 3 ranks outnumber, HE got extra 4s and 4s... You'll notice that I said magic missiles, fireball, fiery blast, and the like, even d6 S5 is pretty acceptable. To be honest lore of Metal is just as effective against elves it still wounds on 3's, and you get all sorts of other nifty spells.

Point being WofC 2 scrolls, 1pd 1 dd cost 135, HE 140 seems close, but WofC have a 15 point chaos warrior under all that... HE 9 point spearelf.

[Wildling04]

Well first of all, the unit has MR3, my army also has 2 units of flesh hounds ad 2 units of 6 flamers, believe me when I say I control the movement phase, you'll fight that unit on my terms or not at all and you'll lose only by minor, fair enough. Your 600+ lord can sit on my flank for a turn, he's going to get charged by something and then held by my stubborn 8 unit fair shakes.

Please explain to me how you would crush that unit in hand to hand or with shooting I'd like to hear. It would help me make it better.

Wow, demons are tough? Flesh hounds and flamers are scary? Who knew?

Seriously, this might need it's own thread for you guys to duke this out or better yet play a game against each other?

Comparing any book to demons is a rather silly exercise -- by that standard all books are subpar. While I agree that WoC isn't as good as some of the rest of 7th ed, there are still some rather wonky things in it, as appears to be the case with all the new books.

[Beregond]

How are you getting MR3 on a unit of plaguebearers? The unit doesn't have Magic resistance, the nurgle heroes don't have magic resistance, and Skulltaker only has magic resistance 2, and can't take additional magic items.

your 12 flamers can't hurt the star dragon rider or star dragon (would anybody NOT take some form of dragon Armour?)

The only thing in your list I'd worry about at all with the dragon rider is the flesh hounds. Your nasty block is only M-4. Why would I ever allow it to see combat? I'd get points by killing your other stuff, and ignore and march block that bad boy.

[Baleanoon]

How are you getting MR3 on a unit of plaguebearers? The unit doesn't have Magic resistance, the nurgle heroes don't have magic resistance, and Skulltaker only has magic resistance 2, and can't take additional magic items.

your 12 flamers can't hurt the star dragon rider or star dragon (would anybody NOT take some form of dragon Armour?)

You're right, but the blood letters can... And your right I check he has magic resist 2.

The only thing in your list I'd worry about at all with the dragon rider is the flesh hounds. Your nasty block is only M-4. Why would I ever allow it to see combat? I'd get points by killing your other stuff, and ignore and march block that bad boy.

I'll post my list in a second, but its a death star you pretty much have to kill it to win the game, with especially with daemons as everything else is so cheap. You also have to remeber as soon as your prince gets in combat he's mine someone is going to kill him eventually its only a matter time for the right tool to get there.

Here's the list anyway

Skulltaker

Nurgle Herald
BSB
Noxious Vapours
Slime Trail
Chaos Glory

Nurgle Herald
Noxious Vapours
Breath

Khorne Herald
Obsidian armour
Juggernaut

15 Plague bearers
FC; Re-roll to wound

15 Bloodletters
Icon: +d6 charge

16 Blood Letters
Icon: +d6 charge

5 flesh hounds

5 flesh hounds

6 flamers

6 flamers

I've stopped using this army as its dreadfully boring to play, a decent movement phase usually wins the game in 4 turns.

[Ruerl Khan]

*coughs* guys, you may be moving slightly off topic, it was meant as "observations on high elven wargaming" not on "how über are chaos demons and how they beat up everything till they cry".