A Look at High Elf Rules in The Old World

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. However it might be future proofing for something in our future Arcane Journal.

[Houdini]

I would be disappointed if our Archmage on foot didn’t have access to armour in some form. I’m hoping RAI comes through for us.

[Prince of Spires]

Those are the only two qualifiers beyond paying points and the high elf mage fails both of them. They're able to wear armor, but they're not able to be equipped with any. No options and no equipment means no magical equivalents.

Two questions:
Can you give a magical shield or the armour of Caledor to a Handmaiden?

Which character has the mundane option to take a helm? And are there any who can take a suit of armour?

Edited to add a third, more rethorical question, but why would GW create a rule that expressly allows mages to wear armour if that rule does not in fact allow mages to wear armour? It surely isn't just for the loremaster honour, cause then they would have simply added it to the honour itself

[Csjarrat]

Those are the only two qualifiers beyond paying points and the high elf mage fails both of them. They're able to wear armor, but they're not able to be equipped with any. No options and no equipment means no magical equivalents.

Two questions:
Can you give a magical shield or the armour of Caledor to a Handmaiden?

Which character has the mundane option to take a helm? And are there any who can take a suit of armour?

Edited to add a third, more rethorical question, but why would GW create a rule that expressly allows mages to wear armour if that rule does not in fact allow mages to wear armour? It surely isn't just for the loremaster honour, cause then they would have simply added it to the honour itself

We're all wanting it to work mate, the problem is you've got two rules in opposition to one another. It causes friction because high elf players benefit from one reading and everyone else benefits from the other reading.
Personally it'd be the easiest fix to state that a warden of saphery may gain light armour for free, (even if the honour has to rise in cost a couple of points) in which case all of the finagling over wordage and intent evaporates

[Ielthan]

I know we all want it to work and for our Archmage's to be killing blowing people for fun, however given the importance of mobility on mages, as well ensuring they have line of sight to spell targets, I'm pretty sure our best non-monstrous build for the mage is on a steed in a unit of skirmishing reavers. Gets huge mobility and 360 degree arc (as long as you ensure you don't block them with the reavers). Use walk between worlds for move-cast-move too.

[bkevs84]

Thoughts on the "Shadow Prince"?

Shadow Prince [254 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- Great Weapon
- Reaver Bow
- Light Armour
- Armour of Silvered Steel
- Seed of Rebirth
- Shadow Stalker

the Armour should be legal, right?
Shadow Stalker: cannot have heavy armour or full plate armour Armour of Silvered Steel is not classified as heavy or full plate. Armour of Caledor or Armour of Destiny is classified as such.

I am also wondering about this, as some items say they are heavy, light, or plate or what not and some don't. But as I didn't see someone weigh in on this I am gonna bump it up.

The BBB says Magic armour follows the same rules as the mundane equivalent (if given). E.g. a Magic suit of heavy armour offers a save of 5+.

So the question would be is the save a magic armour is given is tied to its "class" of armour so for instance the meteoric iron armour is a 5+ therefore whether stated or not it is a suit of heavy, or is it just armour with a 5+ and a then a shadow Stalker could run it. Or are they stuck only running Magic armour that states its light.

I think they can run anything that does not explicitly say heavy or plate.

As for the character I plan to run a similar one to this in a themed list, with a L2 mage also with shadow Stalker and a couple units of shadow warriors to scout forward. Get the L2 mage into dispell bubbles. Generally be a jerk with the Prince etc.

[Prince of Spires]

the problem is you've got two rules in opposition to one another.

I my interpretation there is no opposition between the rules.

It has never been a point of discussion that if a character can take some kind of mundane armour, then it can take any kind of magical armour. That's the generally accepted interpretation of how magic armour works. No one bothers to check if a character can take a shield before they give him a magical shield.

And that only makes sense, otherwise there are some kind of magical armour that can't be taken by anyone. Point me to the mundane equivalent of the armour of silvered steel. Or the mundane equivalent of the beddazleing helm. The isn't one. If they don't have a mundane equivalent, then no character can take them if you need to have the mundane equivalent of said armour as an option.

If it works like this for all other characters in Warhammer, then why doesn't it work for a mage that has been given a rule that lets them take armour?

[Halinn]

No one bothers to check if a character can take a shield before they give him a magical shield.

Hi, it's me, I'm no one.

[Prince of Spires]

The BBB says Magic armour follows the same rules as the mundane equivalent (if given). E.g. a Magic suit of heavy armour offers a save of 5+.

So the question would be is the save a magic armour is given is tied to its "class" of armour so for instance the meteoric iron armour is a 5+ therefore whether stated or not it is a suit of heavy, or is it just armour with a 5+ and a then a shadow Stalker could run it. Or are they stuck only running Magic armour that states its light.

I think they can run anything that does not explicitly say heavy or plate.

Correct. If a magic armour states it's heavy or plate armour, then a shadow stalker prince or noble can't take them, otherwise they can.

As for which save the armour gives, that very much depends on the description of the armour. Sometimes it will state specifically what save you get, at other times you start with the effect of the type of armour and then apply the magical effect

[Prince of Spires]

No one bothers to check if a character can take a shield before they give him a magical shield.

Hi, it's me, I'm no one.

Fair enough. So who can take the armour of silvered steel?

[Halinn]

No one bothers to check if a character can take a shield before they give him a magical shield.

Hi, it's me, I'm no one.

Fair enough. So who can take the armour of silvered steel?

Heck if I know. Probably just models that have regular armor. But I really want GW to answer.

[Morgen]

If you have armor or can buy armor, you can then buy magic armor. If you've got a shield or can buy a shield then you can buy a magic shield. This is not a very complicated system?

Who can take the armor of silvered steel? People who can buy or are equipped with armor. What are you talking about? It's explicitly called a suit of armor.

A Handmaiden is equipped with armor, so they can buy magical armor. They don't have any option to buy shields so they can't use magical shields. Really straight forward.

Ithilmar Armor is a rule a number of models have, it isn't specifically tailored to high elf mages and it provides other benefits for those with the rule.

I'm not able to understand how this is something to be obdurate about. It's a 10 point honor that gives you a magical great weapon without strikes last, killing blow, deflect shots and ithilmar armor to make your character in line with the Swordmasters. It's pretty dang good already.

The rule applies to armor, shields and barding so anyone can purchase and wear a magical helmet. Of course a wizard can't normally wear armor, but oh wait one with Warden of Saphery can so there's some armor for you.

[Prince of Spires]

Who can take the armor of silvered steel? People who can buy or are equipped with armor. What are you talking about? It's explicitly called a suit of armor.

A Handmaiden is equipped with armor, so they can buy magical armor. They don't have any option to buy shields so they can't use magical shields. Really straight forward.

But a suit of armour doesn't exist in the rules. A Handmaiden has light armour and can upgrade to heavy armour.

But fair enough, I'll go with you have the categories of suits of armour (in variants unspecified, Light, Heavy, and Plate), shields, and barding. You need to be allowed to take the mundane one to take the magical version, where any type of suits of armour allows you to take all magical types. There's also helmets, which don't go into any category, so I guess any model who can take either suits of armour or shields can take those.

A model has a rule that states "model may wear armour". Can this model wear a magical suit of armour then? What about a magical helmet?

To me it seems pretty clear that they can.

[Csjarrat]

Who can take the armor of silvered steel? People who can buy or are equipped with armor. What are you talking about? It's explicitly called a suit of armor.

A Handmaiden is equipped with armor, so they can buy magical armor. They don't have any option to buy shields so they can't use magical shields. Really straight forward.

But a suit of armour doesn't exist in the rules. A Handmaiden has light armour and can upgrade to heavy armour.

But fair enough, I'll go with you have the categories of suits of armour (in variants unspecified, Light, Heavy, and Plate), shields, and barding. You need to be allowed to take the mundane one to take the magical version, where any type of suits of armour allows you to take all magical types. There's also helmets, which don't go into any category, so I guess any model who can take either suits of armour or shields can take those.

A model has a rule that states "model may wear armour". Can this model wear a magical suit of armour then? What about a magical helmet?

To me it seems pretty clear that they can.

No one is saying anything new here. Both sides are just restating stuff that's been said a thousand times on various forums, Facebook groups, discord channels etc. best route forward is to chat to your opponent pre-game and come to an agreement. Have a backup list in case of there being an issue and you're all golden. I'm sure it'll get an faq and the conflict will disappear

[Houdini]

Only my interpretation, and I understand everyone will be different. That would be the arguments that I would have to have at my local scene which was traditionally very competitive.
But the title of the rule is Ithilmar Armour. The title of the rule actually includes the word Armour, so Why would GW put Ithilmar Armour in that honour if RAI wasn’t for a mage to be able to wear armour and be running into battle with the SMs? Surely not just to reroll a DT for a mage on foot….but then what is letting you Reroll the DT? The Armour?
Plus looking at the description of the Warden of Saphery.

When Ulthuan marches to war, the Swordmasters of Hoeth are led by the Wardens of Saphery, exemplars of the martial arts who have studied warfare and personal combat for decades.

I believe that interpretation will lend to fluff, which is usually what GW targets I guess.

[Morgen]

Yes, someone is giving people the correct answer with rules and page citations and others are being obderate about this thing because of absolutely nothing. Being able to WEAR armor is not the same thing as being able to BUY armor. No rules citations have been made to refute that. It's fine if you want to do it in your game but if you're asking what the rules are the answer is no

I'm done discussing this, do what you want but you're absolutely wrong and it is not debatable.

[NHB]

Hey, I will only offer this:

can someone please post the rule each for Dragon Armour and Ithilmar Armour. Including the italic fluff text please, where it mentions that the model is wearing said armour?

Where is the 6+ Ward on Dragon Armour coming from, if not from the Dragon Armour that the model is wearing? It could have just be called "Dragon Aura" or "Dragons Protection". So - sure you don't get the option to buy Full-Plate mundane armour. But as you are wearing an otherwise non-specified armour called Dragon Armour, that does not give a + to your armour save, it does give you a 6+ward and opens you up to purchase magic armour, since you are wearing Dragon Armour.

Same for the Ithilmar one. The model is said to be wearing that armour. Hence again opening up for Magic Armour, but not for any mundane ones (and of course no shields either).

Finally on p.111 in the BBB.

Generally speaking, Wizards dislike armour. Its stifling bulk creates a deadening aura about the Wizard's physical body that blinds their Mage sight and makes it all but impossible for them to manipulate the Winds of Magic.

To represent this, a Wizard cannot wear armour or carry a shield. Should a Wizard ever do so, they are unable to make any Casting or Dispel rolls. This penalty applies to all armour and shields, magical or otherwise, but does not include barding (which is worn not by the Wizard, but by their mount).

Note, however, that there are some exceptions. Certain special rules, such as 'Chaos Armour' (found in the Warriors of Chaos army list), make a Wizard exempt from this penalty. Similarly, some suits of magical armour are crafted in such a way as to be exempt from this penalty.

The intention seems quite clear. Mundane Armour nope, but Magical Armour that is crafted in a specific way should work fine.....

[Ielthan]

Who can take the armor of silvered steel? People who can buy or are equipped with armor. What are you talking about? It's explicitly called a suit of armor.

A Handmaiden is equipped with armor, so they can buy magical armor. They don't have any option to buy shields so they can't use magical shields. Really straight forward.

But a suit of armour doesn't exist in the rules. A Handmaiden has light armour and can upgrade to heavy armour.

But fair enough, I'll go with you have the categories of suits of armour (in variants unspecified, Light, Heavy, and Plate), shields, and barding. You need to be allowed to take the mundane one to take the magical version, where any type of suits of armour allows you to take all magical types. There's also helmets, which don't go into any category, so I guess any model who can take either suits of armour or shields can take those.

A model has a rule that states "model may wear armour". Can this model wear a magical suit of armour then? What about a magical helmet?

To me it seems pretty clear that they can.

I'm sure it'll get an faq and the conflict will disappear

I really hope so, bored of this debate already.

[erik9798]

Sorry to keep this topic going about mages wearing armor. On page 221 under unusual armour the last sentence states "this is usually represented by an army special rule which represents these types of armour" so doesn't that mean Ithilmar armour special rule is meant to be considered a suit of armor because it's meant to "represent these types of armour "? Meaning they can equip magic equivalent.

[Ielthan]

The more lists I write the more I want the standard game size to be 2.5k. Really feel this might be the best antidote to "herohammer". There aren't enough good character builds to spam more ridden monsters, the best option becomes more troops.

[Tethlis]

The more lists I write the more I want the standard game size to be 2.5k. Really feel this might be the best antidote to "herohammer". There aren't enough good character builds to spam more ridden monsters, the best option becomes more troops.

I agree. My local scene is debating this hard. Some people are already pushing for a house rule to remove the 50% character allowance. I'd rather move to 2500 just to allow most players to buy another fun regiment or two (I'm always reluctant to house rule... It's a nightmare for those of us who travel and play, especially tournaments.)

Whatever the case, I'm determined to take things as far as I can without leaning into Stardragon. That day may come but it's not why I signed up for High Elves.

[Ielthan]

The more lists I write the more I want the standard game size to be 2.5k. Really feel this might be the best antidote to "herohammer". There aren't enough good character builds to spam more ridden monsters, the best option becomes more troops.

I agree. My local scene is debating this hard. Some people are already pushing for a house rule to remove the 50% character allowance. I'd rather move to 2500 just to allow most players to buy another fun regiment or two (I'm always reluctant to house rule... It's a nightmare for those of us who travel and play, especially tournaments.)

Whatever the case, I'm determined to take things as far as I can without leaning into Stardragon. That day may come but it's not why I signed up for High Elves.

I'm with you the less comp needed the better, and never good to stop people taking the toys they want to play with.

I don't mind the dragons, love them thematically, the issue for me is if you take a dragon at 2k your whole army, and really the whole game, becomes about that dragon, which gets dull really fast. Also in terms of narrative immersion you have a really small army for this supposedly uber dragon lord to be leading, an extra 500pts makes a big difference in this regard.

[Dodoroq]

Hello everybody. I have been reading here a lot and finally decided to sign up... to ask some questions. If anyone can answer with a reference to the rules, please do so, if not, I will be more than happy to hear your interpretation (as I believe will be most cases). So on it:
1) How exactly are one-attempt items with an activation condition used? Thinking about Horn of Isha, which is single use and you have to pass leadership. Say you fail the leadership test - is the horn used up or you can try again next round and only gets used when it actually has an effect?
2) Can a mage/archmage take the Dragon Helm or Bedazzling Helm? Reading the preface to Magic Armour category (core rules p. 340) it looks like possible interpretation here might be that mage can't take armor or shield, the category does not show any barding item (which he could take if sitting on right mount) and thus mage can't pick from that category at all. Not speaking about Honours that allow the armor.
3) Say Mage can use Dragon Helm. Sitting on a dragon, he would have dragon's AS (because it is a single model now and Dragon is just a simple T and W upgrade) and with Dragon Helm he would go one better save than that? (wording says it "... improves their armor value by 1.", and as mage does not have any armor value on his own...
4) How do you evaluate usefulness of Annulian Crystal? At first I liked the item but eventually it looks dull - more than half time without any effect. As magic is performed in different phases, getting rid of a spell you just cast may get you either the same spell (which you very probably can't cast again) or a spell whose phase is already past us so you can't cast it either.
5) Say a mage can pick his spells instead of rolling (e.g. using Lore Familiar). In a tournament environment, do you expect the spell selection is fixed through the whole tournament or the mage can change the spells between battles? Similar to that, if an item allows to pick spells from multiple lores (e.g. using Arcane Familiar), are the spell slots used for particular lores fixed or you can divide differently between battles? Can you divide so that one of your selected lores gets 0 spells?

Thank you in advance,
D

[Morgen]

The leadership test for the Horn of Isha is to attempt to use it, so if you fail you should be able to try again. It'd be unusual that failing an attempt to try to use something counts as using it somehow... >.>

Any character can take a magical helm pretty much. Though it is armor so wizards are prohibited without an additional rule.

I believe characters/mounts look at the better of the two. So the helm improves the mage's 7+ just clothes armor save, not the dragon's.

People have been enjoying the Annulian Crystal, it gives access to more spells in a turn which is usually very nice since you're allowed to cast multiple spells. Obviously it's usefulness fluctuates with the lore you've picked and your opponent but it's proven to be potent if used correctly.

Most tournaments expect you to make decisions like pick your spells and lores before hand and have them listed on your army roster. Obviously randomly rolled spells are done normally but if you're picking and choosing spells that's traditionally done before hand. Your mileage may vary however.

[Prince of Spires]

1) I agree with Morgen. The desciption says "may attempt to use it by passing a LD test". Thus if you fail the test, then you're not using it. It seems the most fair interpretation, though I can see someone arguing the reverse as well. Best check with your opponent before the game.

2) They only can do so if they get an honor which allows them to take armour.

3) Check the section on mounted characters in BBB p 204-205. For monsters (and chariots): "When this model makes an Armour save, it may either use the mount of the character's armour value, whichever is better". The character is wearing the helm, so he benefits from the +1 to his armour save. The Dragon isn't wearing the helmet, so he doesn't get an extra +1. So you either use the 4+ from the Dragon, or whatever armour save your mage has.

4) I'm not a big fan of it, because I think the Silvery Wand is a lot better. Getting 5 out of the 6 spells in a lore is stronger than swapping one out I think. Having said that, I can see some playing around with it. The main issue is that it's random. When rolling for a lvl 4, you've got a 1-in-3 chance of getting the same spell (unless you're getting rid of the signature spell). It offers some protection against getting bad spells, in that if you fail to roll the 2 spells you want, then you can get them later. And it offers some flexibility to change spells throughout the game, where at the start you might want more movement type spells while later you might want more damage oriented spells. But again, you have no guarantee to actually get those. And then just having 1 more spell does most of that (and does it cheaper).

5) Check with the tournament organizer. They should answer this and it can differ between tournaments. If you want the BBB rule on this, then in TOW there is no rule that you have to pick spells you pick at the time you create your list. You can do so right before the battle starts instead of rolling for spells. So you can change spells between battles. And you can select 0 spells from one lore and all from the other if you have the Arcane Familiar (and if you take it on a lvl 1, you have to do it that way). See BBB p106: you roll for spells (or pick them) right before deployment starts.

[Ielthan]

I'm a little surprised on the horn of isha interpretation, I would have thought the "one use" includes the test, so if you fail it it's gone. Another thing for the faq I guess. I don't remember a previous instance of a one use item having any kind of multiple attempts.

[Dodoroq]

Thanks so far, pointing me in the right direction to look with most answers. The organization of the books is not too nice to look for answers fast :-/.
Another questions I can't really find the answers for anywhere (maybe you were more careful readers, or again your interpretation may help):
6) Say I decide to place Ruby Ring of Ruin item on a model with a bow. How does that work - they shoot either or, both on same target, both possibly on different targets? I am tempted with using the ring on the Sisters of Avelorn champion
7) I have a character with a ranged weapon (or magic missile spell) in a unit of models with a ranged weapons. Can they declare different target than the unit?

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Thanks so far, pointing me in the right direction to look with most answers. The organization of the books is not too nice to look for answers fast :-/.
Another questions I can't really find the answers for anywhere (maybe you were more careful readers, or again your interpretation may help):
6) Say I decide to place Ruby Ring of Ruin item on a model with a bow. How does that work - they shoot either or, both on same target, both possibly on different targets? I am tempted with using the ring on the Sisters of Avelorn champion
7) I have a character with a ranged weapon (or magic missile spell) in a unit of models with a ranged weapons. Can they declare different target than the unit?

These are pretty good questions, and the wording in the Shooting Phase section does make it ambiguous. The 'Who Can Shoot?' section implies that magic missiles are a shooting attack. The '"We Can't All Shoot!"' section says units cannot split their shooting between two or more targets.

However, you don't roll a spell and a unit's shooting attacks at the same time, so they are inherently not exactly the same. I would argue that because they're two different types of attack, you should be able to pick different targets, but there's nothing to actually counter "Units cannot split their shooting between two or more targets." Until we get a FAQ, or someone points out something I've missed that clarifies this, I'd say consult with your opponent before the game.

As for a character with a bow and the ring, they would be able to do both since again, they don't happen at the same time. Also something that isn't explicitly stated anywhere that I've seen, but that's how I would rule it. Whether you can pick a different target, that would depend on what you and your opponent decide is the way to play it.

[Prince of Spires]

A character and a unit can shoot at different targets. Is in the characters and shooting rules somewhere if I recall correctly.

[Dodoroq]

A character and a unit can shoot at different targets. Is in the characters and shooting rules somewhere if I recall correctly.

This helped me found it, thanks, but it works different. Core Book, p.209:
Characters & Shooting
If a character equipped with a missile weapon has joined a unit equipped with missile weapons, both must shoot at the same target, using their own characteristics.
Note that this only applies to missile weapons, not to Magic Missile or Magical Vortex spells.

Which looks like "if character has shooting weapon, he shoots with the unit; if he has spells, he shoots the spells at a different moment doing the whole targeting procedure."
The interpretation may also stretch further to "when two characters with ranged weapons join a unit without ranged weapons, they will have to shoot on the same target". This all may be kind of stupid as the weapons may have completely different ranges, but it is unfortunately in the rules...
Interesting thing is if two mages are in the same unit, each can cast on different target as they do the casting rolls each on his own, one by one.