Some rules questions from a Tournement.

[Cold Phoenix]

Recently, at a local tournament, I had a game against a Vampire Count Player which left a bad taste in my mouth. He was interpreting the rules is some pretty strange ways and rolling dice too quickly for me to see or while I wasn’t looking. These are some of the Interesting things that came up:

1-He was taking Look out Sir against Miscast damage.

2-During a combat between his Zombie Bus and my Phoenix Guard, he used Make Way to shift the position of a Cairn Wraith (despite the fact he was already in base contact with 3 Phoenix Guard) so that he blocked the one of my Phoenix Guard file from being able to attack.

3-He also said that if a unit of Hexwraiths moved through a unit multiple times in a single movement phase, each Hexwraith could inflict more than one hit each per their special rules. I asked to see their special rules and couldn’t find anything which seemed to permit this. As far as I remember the rules, it was something like “for each Hexwraith that passes through the unit, it takes a S5, Magical Flaming hit.

4-Lastly, in turn 3, I made the mistake of assaulting the Watchtower with 19 Swordmasters+ my Loremaster, at a time when it contained about 30 Ghouls under Van Hel’s. I lost about 13 Swordmasters (after rolling badly for saves), he lost 8 Ghouls, I broke and ran (I've since learned that this was a mistake and that if the defender doesn't break, the attacking unit backs off an 1" as normal for a failed building assault, but in this case we both forgot this and the last stand rule). Turn 4 his Terrorgheist Screams killed 6 Swordmasters and Turn 5 he finished off the Champion and Loremaster, resulting in a 670 point swing at the end of the game. I’d asked him earlier if Terrorgheist screams had any special rules or counted as magical and he said no, so we ignored The Banner of the World Dragon on the Swordmasters. I’ve since come across this thread http://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/ma ... ist.24594/ which states that Terrorgheist Screams are magical and references page 48 of the Vampire Count Army Book about 2/3rds of the way down the first page.

Now, I’m relatively new to Fantasy, hadn’t played him before and was new to the gaming group. We were also pressed for time because we had 2 hours to setup and play a 2000 point game and neither of us was using point and click armies. I didn’t want to argue with him and let him has it his way. I’m not a rules expert and I don’t know a lot about Vampire Counts. I didn't want to argue through everything or be one of those people who demands rules clarification every turn, but afterwards I felt I'd been taken advantage of, by a more experienced player. Perhaps some of the more experienced players could explain to me if/how he was wrong and how I could/should handle similar situations in the future?

[Mist]

1. No, not against miscasts.
2. No, you cannot use make way like this. If you can all ready attack then you stay where you are, if making way for a challenge there may be a way but this would be considered gamie .
3. No, only once, this would make the Flame Ph a must take in all armies.
4. BotWD. Would protect from all magic attacks, but as you broke from combat then the holder of the banner should have all ready been dead, as he stood his ground.

[Cold Phoenix]

BotWD. Would protect from all magic attacks, but as you broke from combat then the holder of the banner should have all ready been dead, as he stood his ground.

I did think there was something wrong here but I couldn't remember what .

Edit:

Went and looked up the building rules; apparently if the attacker loses, they don't have to take a break test. They just fall back 1" away from the building. So I still had the banner and should have been 1" away from the Watchtower.

[pk-ng]

Learn from experience and study the rulebook more closely.
If you have doubt ask him to show you the relevant rules i.e Army Book or BRB. If he can't then either "discuss" or roll off to settle the issue.
It's better to slowly play and get the rules right then play fast and get it wrong. Speed comes with experience and better knowledge of the rules.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

It is really a shame that you had to play against a player who cheats. The only thing you could do is to avoid that player now but as pk-ng wisely advised, try to study an army book before the game (if you have access to one that is).

I also agree that you should not feel bad about slowing game down if there is something you are not sure about. In fact, you can use what you have mentioned, i.e. that you are new player and tries to learn the rules. I have no problem to ask a player to show me the passage in the relevant material that supports his claim. I remember things better when I read and that is also the way to assess credibility. You don't have to assume somebody is trying taking advantage of you but at the same time people do mix things up.

Move on and don't worry about that game any more! You have learned valuable lesson and now you will be able to play games you enjoy too!

Cheers!

[Gregtheslacker]

I would suggest talking to people you know that know him and finding out if this is a pattern and he's a dishonest jerk or just doesn't know the rules. While I suspect the first, it could be the latter.

I've come across both.

[Ferny]

I actually like that you played fast and got some rules wrong - I need to play more like this, especially at tournies! If it swings against me so be it, at least I'll finish (I'm a slow player, and as you say, not a point and click army).

That said, I'm a big fan of saying out loud what I'm rolling for before rolling (and then saying 'taking out the bad/for re-rolls' when I collect up my dice) and I don't think it takes too much time, so there are niceties which could be done better! I know a lot of folks have a ground-rule that if a dice is at all cocked or on any scenery it gets re-rolled, no matter how little the cock (hur hur). You could adopt a similar rule for speed-rolling - no collecting of dice until both players confirm what was needed. It isn't hard or time consuming, given that you're already doing the maths and the rolling anyway.

If you dispute a rule you can always call a ref. Probably not worth it for Q2...might be for Q1 if you're looking to chip wounds off the caster, but not if you don't expect to kill it, definitely worth it for Q3 - that would make a huge difference! - and Q4 looks like a clusterforget of rules which (kinda) balanced out in the end, albeit drastically against you...but given that the key thing here was the buildings rule which you both missed, yes he got the Terrorgheist rule wrong, but it wouldn't have mattered if your banner was lost, so 'as you played it' it was correct, albeit with deceit or misinterpretation of the TG rule.

1. Pretty sure that's a no
2. I think you can only make way if you start off not in combat (e.g. second rank, or end of front rank where your frontage exceeds your opponents). After that you can combat reform, but you're still locked in combat with whoever you're in combat with. Now if you get into the realms of challenges I find the rules a bit hazy - who moves where when! - but that wasn't the case here. So I think also a no.
3. Pretty sure you're right on that one too!
4. MR wouldn't help but BotWD would - if your banner hadn't fled - which it shouldn't of but had.

[Iluvatar]

Just about question 1: it's actually yes and no.
No, the Wizard who miscasts is not allowed a Look out Sir! roll. (as the miscast table on p. 34 of the rules book states)
Yes, other characters affected are allowed such a roll.

[Cold Phoenix]

I actually like that you played fast and got some rules wrong - I need to play more like this, especially at tournies! If it swings against me so be it, at least I'll finish (I'm a slow player, and as you say, not a point and click army).

That said, I'm a big fan of saying out loud what I'm rolling for before rolling (and then saying 'taking out the bad/for re-rolls' when I collect up my dice) and I don't think it takes too much time, so there are niceties which could be done better! I know a lot of folks have a ground-rule that if a dice is at all cocked or on any scenery it gets re-rolled, no matter how little the cock (hur hur). You could adopt a similar rule for speed-rolling - no collecting of dice until both players confirm what was needed. It isn't hard or time consuming, given that you're already doing the maths and the rolling anyway.

If you dispute a rule you can always call a ref. Probably not worth it for Q2...might be for Q1 if you're looking to chip wounds off the caster, but not if you don't expect to kill it, definitely worth it for Q3 - that would make a huge difference! - and Q4 looks like a clusterforget of rules which (kinda) balanced out in the end, albeit drastically against you...but given that the key thing here was the buildings rule which you both missed, yes he got the Terrorgheist rule wrong, but it wouldn't have mattered if your banner was lost, so 'as you played it' it was correct, albeit with deceit or misinterpretation of the TG rule.

1. Pretty sure that's a no
2. I think you can only make way if you start off not in combat (e.g. second rank, or end of front rank where your frontage exceeds your opponents). After that you can combat reform, but you're still locked in combat with whoever you're in combat with. Now if you get into the realms of challenges I find the rules a bit hazy - who moves where when! - but that wasn't the case here. So I think also a no.
3. Pretty sure you're right on that one too!
4. MR wouldn't help but BotWD would - if your banner hadn't fled - which it shouldn't of but had.

What really annoys me is that I've since checked everything I could remember about the game that felt wrong. In every instance I couldn't find anything to support his claims or I've found rules that directly contradicted what he said at the time. My conclusion is that he either doesn't know his rules (which is strange, given that he has a fully painted army and seems to have been around for a while), has a memory like a sieve or deliberately cheats. He also didn't have a copy of his army list. Instead it was all on his phone and while he showed it to me at the start of the game, I couldn't check it at other times.

Really, my conclusion is that I don't want to play him again.

Iluvatar,
My problem with any characters using "Look out Sir!" for miscast damage is that the characters are only allowed a "Look out Sir!" roll only when hit by an unusual shooting attack like a Cannon, Breath Weapon or Stone Thrower. The main rulebook Errata does add Spells using templates, but miscasts aren't Spells.

[Gregtheslacker]

Having reread your original post, I'm thinking dishonest jerk. Unfortunately, in tournaments, you can't always choose your opponents.

Something I need to start doing, and I would advise you to do likewise, is demand to see the rules when something sounds fishy.

I'd also speak to the TO about his behavior, because most TO's I've known won't tolerate that kind of thing for long.

[Cold Phoenix]

Having reread your original post, I'm thinking dishonest jerk. Unfortunately, in tournaments, you can't always choose your opponents.

Something I need to start doing, and I would advise you to do likewise, is demand to see the rules when something sounds fishy.

I'd also speak to the TO about his behavior, because most TO's I've known won't tolerate that kind of thing for long.

Well, as I said in the original post, I'm a newcomer and he appears to have been around for a while. If I decide to call him out on it, I want it to be on the day, with other players as witnesses, so it's not just my word against his. I'd also like to do it in such a way that it doesn't get me a reputation as a rules lawyer or worse.

[Gregtheslacker]

My experience when I was new to war games in general and again when I was new to WFB (in two different cities), was that the experienced players already knew about "that guy" and didn't blame me for asking to see rules that sounded fishy. It will depend on not being confrontational and asking for clarification/documentation rather than flat out accusing him of cheating.

If he can't provide his own rules via the army book, ask the TO if anyone else has a copy.

[SteVieBizzLe]

first of all sorry you got stuck playing an a**hole, it happens from time to time. About the questions...

1) The micasting wizard cannot take a look out sir roll, but other characters hit by the template can, as per the rule for being hit by a template when inside a unit.

2) I actually think this is OK, there is no rule that forbids a make way from one point of a unit to another - except when already in base with a model. Starting in B2B with one rank and file model and ending the make way in B2B with another, as i read it, is fine. Would be prevented if the wraith had been in B2B with the unit champ or a character. But no book on me atm so unsure on this

3) Wrong again on the VC player part. Hexwraiths can do some crazy stuff by abusing their unlimited reforms, so 1 model hits the unit, the unit then reforms 5 times so all 5 models can make the hit - but you only get 1 hit per model.

4) Right and Wrong - the BotWD should of protected you, but as you played it he was dead, but he shouldnt of been dead and therefore protecting you.

again it sucks to play tools, just try and avoid him and make a note of his name with the TO and they will pass it around. and hopefully keep an eye on him in the future.

[Prince of Spires]

1) Nope. LoS is limited to shooting attacks and spell damage. BRB P93 only applies them to shooting attacks that use templates (or equivalent). And the BRB FAQ extends them to include spells that use templates (not even damage from spells but spells). Since miscasts are not shooting attacks or a spell, you don't get a look out sir against them.

2) Not allowed. You can only make way if you are not in B2B with enemy models. BRB p100: "At the start of combat, if a characters unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact" (emphasis mine). So no more making way once you are in B2B contact.

Rod

[Kes-Elrin]

"1-He was taking Look out Sir against Miscast damage."

If you look at the miscast table (in the chapter on magic NOT the summarised table in the reference section) you will see that every time a template is involved it specifically says that "...in this case the caster is not allowed a Look Out Sir!...", implying that other characters hit by the template are allowed a Look Out Sir! roll.

However, some tournaments rule that no Look Out Sir! rolls at all are allowed for miscasts and would be indicated as such in the comp pack.

"2-...he used Make Way to shift the position of a Cairn Wraith (despite the fact he was already in base contact with 3 Phoenix Guard)..."

Totally illegal. Characters in base contact cannot Make Way. The Make Way rule is to allow characters to get INTO combat, not for the purpose of repositioning their ranks into a more favourable set-up.

"3-...if a unit of Hexwraiths moved through a unit multiple times in a single movement phase, each Hexwraith could inflict more than one hit each per their special rules..."

In the Vampire Counts Army Book, under Hexwraiths, it quite specifically says that only one unit is affected by the Hexwraiths Spectral Hunters ability. Although Hexwraiths can move through multiple units and even the same unit several times, only one Spectral Hunters attack is made in the Movement phase.

As a matter of interest, the VC FAQ says that Hexwraiths moving through units in the magic phase due to Vanhel's Danse Macabre may make a Spectral Hunters attack. Technically speaking, it would seem that this allows the Hexwraiths two such attacks, one in the movement phase and one in the magic phase, though personally I think this is a bit gamey (and another oversight in the rules).

"4-...Terrorgheist screams had any special rules or counted as magical..."

Yes. The Death Shriek of a Terrorgheist is definitely a magical attack and would allow the BotWD ward save.



It's understandable why you felt a bit aggrieved after this game. For the most part it sounds like ignorance of the rules on your opponent's part, but the rolling of dice too fast and not allowing you to see the rolls is poor gaming etiquette to say the least. Also, being a bit rusty on the general game rules is one thing, but the onus of knowing the army rules should be that of the owning player, not his opponent.

[Cold Phoenix]

Thanks all for the replies. I think we've established that in most of the cases the Vampire Count player was either cheating or simply doesn't know his rules. The question I have now is what should I do about it if I encounter him in future? My initial thoughts are to avoid him if possible and in the event I end up playing him, watch carefully and check on everything remotely suspicious.

[Mist]

You cannot just come out and accuse him of cheating, you have to catch him in the act. You can still play him outside of tournaments, just pull him up on the rules he got wrong when you do, it is probably a better time to do it, if he is cheating, he will learn not to do it to you, if he did not know then he will mend his ways. If he continues after this then there is a problem, this is when you stop playing him, or report him to a T.O. if in a tournament.

[Gregtheslacker]

In addition, ask to see the rules, and call him out on "forgetting the book" if he pulls that stunt again. Do it politely, but let him know you're on to his shenanigans.

[pk-ng]

worst comes to worst...slap him with the BRB