I am shocked.

[Tarval]

You can search this on you tube or click the link below. Make your own judgement after u watch it all. The laughing and action of the dad that lost his daughter in the shooting just shocked and blew me away as a prent...

You have to watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8&sns=em

[Silver]

Eh I just read the few comments on top and decided not to bother watching it, sounds like some media stuff no one needs to bother with.

[Tarval]

I guess it depends on if your a parent or not. As well the ar ,15 was found in the trunk via video which shows it. Its just not adding up and the wife and I think the same about it. As well as a lot of other people in this country

[grantmepower]

You're a Newtown conspiracy theorist? You've lost what little respect and decency you ever had.

[Tarval]

Nope. It has nothing to do with that. As well labeling people on this forum. I am simply pointing out and waiting for the full accout as so many others are.

If you can explain how the ar 15 was in the vehicles trunk but killed all those people please do!! The man who did this never left the building?

Did u see the father laughning? Why was he carrying on like that. I simply posted the link for people to watch and think for themselves.

I would like a mod to step in a speak to grantmepower please about his commit!

[grantmepower]

You realize when you say "the ar 15 was in the vehicles trunk", that you are choosing to disbelieve everything that every mainstream media account has said (including Fox, which tends to twist the facts to whatever slant suits them, but still admits that the AR15 was the weapon used during the shooting)?
So, you saw a youtube video that somebody claims shows an AR15 in the trunk? Yeah... right. What you are doing, what all you nutcases are doing, is trying to find any sort of conspiracy to explain away this tragedy. Be it Obama staged it to take away your guns, that the police have some reason to cover everything up, or some other lunatic explanation. You know what really happened? A horrible person shot some kids. Accept that, stop pushing an agenda.

[Tarval]

Did u see the fathers action? You have made a choice to label me !On top off not looking at the facts! Did you watch this from the start. I am a father and those of us who have watched his action are shocked. Questions are raised based off un truth. Prove me wrong before u speak again. Are u a parent, do you have grounds to stand on that a man two days after his loose is cutting up! Video from day one shows the ar 15 in the trunk. The police stated he did what he did with the sig and glock.

[grantmepower]

As well who are u because I have never seen a post from u?

There's an easy enough solution to that. Search my posts

If you want to say that calling somebody out on a completely vile, unsubstantiated lie is a labeling you, then yes. That is exactly what I'm doing.

[Tarval]

Your facts? Thought so...

[grantmepower]

Your facts? Thought so...

Do I really have to do this? Isn't the burden of proof usually laid at the feet of the person making the outlandish claim? You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to link you to a news article about the conspiracies. And if you don't like that article for some reason, I'll find you another... and another... and another. Maybe you'll eventually realize that there is little more than thin air holding up any claims of "Its just not adding up".
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_co ... cy_theory/

[Facade19]

I enjoy a healthy debate. But, folks, please keep it civil and do not tread on a path that need not be taken.
Cool off, realize that people have different views and ideas and move on. Each side has expressed his (or her) views and that should settle the matter. Right?

[Teledor]

Well... To say that the video has nothing but facts is.. like saying an op-ed can be used for evidence, or better yet, statistics. Since statistics can pretty much be infinitely manipulated.

Also, you're asking him to prove a negative.. Can you prove that that isn't how that guy grieves? Have you ever experienced grief exactly like that to know that everyone grieves exactly how you grieve, to make it shocking to see how someone else might be dealing with it? I know I haven't, but I'm not going to judge someone else, or hold them to standards of how I believe he should be acting.

Addressing the video... You do realize that all of that can be cleverly edited to prove what they want to prove, right? The video has just as much of an "agenda" as the "mainstream" media supposedly does. It's difficult to even tell if the car that the police were pulling the "AR-15" from was the suspects car. The voice over guy just says that it is... You know that police, marked and unmarked, carry the exact same kind of rifles right? You can believe what you want to believe. That's your prerogative. But I just find a lot of questionable "evidence" in the video.. I'm never really even sure what order they're actually stringing together the clips..

Lastly.. As to conspiracy theories in general, ranging from Area-51, to 9/11 truthers, to Obama birthers, to now Newton trusthers.. You really think, especially after how something like the Manti T'eo situation blew up within 72 hours, that years long conspiracies can hold together? That somebody wouldn't come forward with that actual truth and there would be a complete reckoning ala Watergate.. and not some strung together video clips.

Anyways.. Just some thoughts I had from the other night..

[Tarval]

So, lets back up to my first post. "Make your own judgement". I watched this unfold and saw these videos live, I saw the report. I simply posted it for you to veiw and think for yourself. I did not slander or label anybody. I simply find the fathers actions to be off, as well as some of the information is un clear. I said nothing of the sort that it was a lie, theory etc.

Teledor, did you watch the father come out of the house? Did watch his actions, and are you a parent? Does it add up, if you can say yes to the first three question.

The details for the ar15 are un clean
The fathers actions are off. The same was said for the issue in Florida.

I would like more answers.

You can make your own judgemen about the information.

[Teledor]

You can believe what you want. Really. Those are just the reason why I don't find it a credible video.

And honestly, what the hell does being a parent have anything to do with this? Like I said, I can't possibly fathom what these parents are going through and I doubt you can either. Yet the video creators have cast some kind of judgment. Insinuating something is "off" suggests you think they're acting, putting something on, or lying about having a child die in the shooting. Which makes me sick. Kind of like the people who believe this and harass the families.

So no. Not a parent. So I can't say yes to all three of your questions. Let me posit one though.. and then think on it for a bit.

Have you buried a child? If you can answer yes... Then you have some infinitesimally small reason to cast judgment. If no, then please reserve your judgment on the guy for being "off". Again, everyone grieves differently.

Personally, I have lots of questions. But more having to do with what causes people to need to find conspiracies.

Edit: I am also unsure if there will ever be enough evidence to answer your questions if it doesn't exist now..

[Tarval]

My wife and I have lost three children.

I am a parent,and the reason I asked the questions to see if you could ask youself one simple question.

1. Does a parent act like that when they have lost a child? NO!!!!

Ask a mother or father if they would act that way. Will you show them the video and ask them that simple question?

Tell the nut jobs that say a parent deals with it in there own well to go back to the drawing board. I have never heard or will ever hear of a parent acting like that unless something was going on. Case in point, Florida case!!!

Show your mom or dad and ask them that simple question. I put money on it! I can see it now..."dad, would u be laughing if somebody murdered me two days later?"

If you dont like me ow well, at least I did no step down to your level!

[Teledor]

First, I'm sorry you've lost three children.

Second, all I'm trying to do is to get across that it is unfair to judge someone from afar without personally knowing them.

Third, step [sic] down to my level? Excuse me. Here's the guy judging people via the internet by short video clips edited by people with an agenda. Pot calling the kettle black a bit..

Since I am unsure you read this from Grant's earlier post.. I'll throw this in here.. Pulled from the link:

Why aren’t the adults sadder? “They aren’t behaving the way human beings would act,” as conspiracy theorist Jay Weidner told fellow conspiracy theorist Jeff Rense on his radio show. Theorists have zeroed in on Robbie Parker, who they say wasn’t grieving hard enough for his slain 6-year-old daughter, Emilie. In one widely circulated clip, Parker laughs before stepping up to the microphone, and apparently someone says “read from the card” (as in cue card) before Parker breathes heavily in anticipation of beginning a press conference. “This is what actors do to get into character,” one popular YouTube video states. Rense and Weidner also take issue with the mourning of the school nurse, the family of slain teacher Victoria Soto, and others. “ALL ACTORS??? NO TEARS,” wonders the author of SandyHookHoax.com on a page featuring videos with numerous interviews from the shooting.

Answer: People mourn in many different ways, sometimes all at once. As a recent Scientific American article on gref [sic] noted, “oscillation between sadness and mirth repeated itself in study after study … Time and again, a grief-stricken person’s expression would change from dejection to laughter and back.” George Bonanno, a psychologist at Columbia University who studies grief, even developed a way to determine if this mourner’s laughter was genuine or merely a facade to hide grief — he determined that they “exhibited the real thing.” Scientists think this is part of our internal resilience mechanisms kicking in, because constant grief is simply too much for a person to handle.

Again. I'm sorry you've lost children and your method of grieving was different. However, you viewing how you would grieve in this situation and then judging someone else, who is completely different, based on how you think they should be grieving is.. I am actually at a loss for words to describe this. But, that would be no different than me telling you that you didn't grieve your children properly.

The Florida case? Are you talking about Casey Anthony? That chick was totally nuts and likely thoroughly guilty. Not that I see a long pattern of indifference and callousness as the same as a few seconds of video.

Last point, and then you can flame me however you want at this point and "not stoop to my level".. Personally, and I really mean this... I would hope that my mother, father, sisters or my wife could find a moment to get away from their grief over my loss in your hypothetical question you ask. I don't need to ask that question. I know they would be devastated. But would I want them to devastated for 24/7. No. Would I hope that someone, somewhere would point something out unrelated that made them laugh to forget their grief for just a second. Yes. 10^Infinitum yes.. Hell, look at how professional athletes have grieved at times when they've lost someone close, a parent or sibling (Brett Favre, Torrey Smith for example).. They go out and often play their heads off and turn in some of the most focused performances in sport. Are you telling me those people were no longer grieving, or didn't love the loved ones they lost, or were lying about it. Really? They're coping with grief the best way they know how.. Getting lost in the moment, playing for their memory, etc..

Ok.. really last point... could it be he was nervous? Imagining myself having to go onto national news and give a press conference after any event, whether it be a horrific loss, achievement, winning the lottery, whatever.. I would be freaking out nervous. You know how I break my nervousness - I do it often before going into a court hearing - cracking a joke. Any joke. Finding something funny to get me to forget my racing heart and face the task at hand. I don't know.. just a thought. Maybe give people the benefit of the doubt...

[Asurion Whitestar]

Let everyone settle down and take a breather before posting responses.

Only warning for name calling, if you're unhappy with a posters "name" for you, bring it to their attention, if they do not sincerely apologise they will be warned; only once. Any repeated flaming or attacking will be met harshly.


Debating facts and conspiracies is healthy for most, don't let it get out of hand. And show restraint if you know you are fired up etc.



ON TOPIC:
Although with all the above being said, I'm probably going to be met by some with mixed posts/thoughts.

But as with all conspiracy debunkers, they give short simple answers made to hold apparent truth.
Myself for example have only heard very distant gunfire from ranges or rural parties etc (once down at Surfers [Paradise] during Schoolies/Spring Break, but that's it), living in suburban Australia isn't really frightening or hardening.
But if I was heading to my daughters school to make gingerbread houses and heard gun shots and smelled sulphur, you'd not be seeing me run away...!! I'd be getting in that fucking building and getting my daughter the fuck out of there..

There's no god damn way in hell you could stop me trying, it's utter bullshit for any parent to "run away"...

There are in truth a lot of conflicting pieces of evidence, for both sides of this "debate".
As stated originally:
MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.!!

I've made mine with a lot of disasters and so called "emergency exercises", I'm happy with myown views on American Government, and indeed Australian, aswell as some European and Eastern Countries.

I'm interested in truth, be it from physics to paranormal to extraterrestrial.
Here's one to change the subject..:
Ancient Aliens.. Search that on YouTube.

[Tarval]

Is there any video of the school yet. We had a camera at ever section of the hall in my day. Food for thought..

I only stated his actions were not normal. Via my view and for others to make thier own view guys

[Paraicj]

So by "make your own judgement" you mean "If you say anything I disagree with you're wrong"? Video is a load of hokey, conspiracy theories show up after every major tragedy. This is a tragedy.

If you want us to make our own judgements stop immediately rebutting everyones' judgements.

[Andrew_uk]

I find it interesting reading conspiracy theories. The motives usually stand up an there is usually so much confusion surrounding these events that the theorists are able to take advantage. However, is it really logistically possible to pull off this sort of thing? For the 9/11 conspiracy to be executed correctly would have required minimum of 2,000 people of which you would have to assume that at least 10% would have been fully/partially aware of the plan that they were helping into fruition with the orders they were following. This one would probably have required 500 people, similar percentages. JFK/Pearl Harbour/BP Oil spill would probably have all been possible with a smaller scale.

The BP Oil spill is an interesting conspiracy because it's an anti American one. The theory goes that the Americans caused it intentionally (it was American contracters that actually caused the spill) so that they could lower the shareprice of BP, instate an American Chief Executive and take full control of the only major oil company not in US hands. I find this to be far more believable than most of the others yet is rarely talked of.

One thing is certainly true; if ever a country was capable of being able to mobilise the man power required to pull it off, then its America. Does this make it more believable than the proposed story? No probably not. So all you gun loving rednecks can drop it, it's a sad day when Piers Morgan is the voice of reason. I can just about understand having an armed police force, but beyond that why would you need a gun unless you hunt?

That said, in this instance I certainly wish it were a hoax and no children had actually been killed.

[Teledor]

I'll apologize for the earlier posts. Going after victims just makes me rather upset, and to me that includes suggesting they're actors, part of conspiracy, faking it, not grieving enough, not grieving the right way, ad infinitum.

Anyways... Schools having security cameras is far from universal. I graduated High School in 2000. The elementary school I attended from 91-93 was brand new. Literally it opened in 91. No security cameras. Both my Middle and High School... No security cameras, but they were much much older. Honestly, Sandy Hook may be older and they just don't have security cameras. Also, if memory serves me correctly - this is the first school shooting to take place inside a elementary school. The other shootings that have taken place inside, like Columbine, were Middle Schools or High School aka secondary schools. Secondary schools logically make sense to have security cameras since that's where, as kids get older, a higher probability for shady stuff going on exists - drug deals, gang violence, sexual assaults etc. Different districts can also have different priorities as well. My schools were in a similar socio-economic area as Sandy Hook - affluent. I think school administrators tend not to believe that violence is as frequent and may have decided against having security cameras. I don't know.

Maybe go to Newton and talk to people there, investigate a bit for yourself if you really have questions rather than believing the Internet.. Because you know who says you can believe everything you read on the Internet? the Internet.

[Asurion Whitestar]

So by "make your own judgement" you mean "If you say anything I disagree with you're wrong"? Video is a load of hokey, conspiracy theories show up after every major tragedy. This is a tragedy.

If you want us to make our own judgements stop immediately rebutting everyones' judgements.

I hope this wasn't aimed at me..
I haven't said anything of the sort to say either side is Wrong.
And even if I did I am only one person with a different view than someone else... Doesn't happen very often I know, but it does happen.. :/

[Aicanor]

Tragedies like this should not be brodcasted and dragged through every dirty corner of the Internet. Please do give the people who were affected some privacy. They deserve at least that.

[lordoftheshadows]

Tragedies like this should not be brodcasted and dragged through every dirty corner of the Internet. Please do give the people who were affected some privacy. They deserve at least that.

I completely agree. Let the people that lost their kids rest know that you care but don't make their tragedy into a huge national debate. Let them greive in peace and don't go around blaming people.

[Paraicj]

So by "make your own judgement" you mean "If you say anything I disagree with you're wrong"? Video is a load of hokey, conspiracy theories show up after every major tragedy. This is a tragedy.

If you want us to make our own judgements stop immediately rebutting everyones' judgements.

I hope this wasn't aimed at me..
I haven't said anything of the sort to say either side is Wrong.
And even if I did I am only one person with a different view than someone else... Doesn't happen very often I know, but it does happen.. :/

No, at the OP, sorry. I thought it would be unnecessary to quote him. Conspiracy nutting can be a bit of fun in the abstract I suppose, but in reality, all he's doing is accusing a grieving father of...something vague enough that he can't explain it.

[Facade19]

^ But that presupposes that the father did indeed lose his child to begin with. Not that I am saying that he did not, but I want to make clear that your circumscribe the argument by stating that we should let the father, or other grieving members collect themselves. The video in its entirety questions this entire narrative presented-that there was one shooter, shooting all the victims and family members are suffering. From what I gather, the creator(s) of the video do not believe that some (or all) of the victims) were actually shot/killed and that this is a hoax.

Now, once again, I want to point out that I do not take either side. Just participating in this conversation.

[Allerion]

Maybe go to Newton and talk to people there, investigate a bit for yourself if you really have questions rather than believing the Internet.. Because you know who says you can believe everything you read on the Internet? the Internet.

Aren't you the one who is refusing to accept what most people believe what happened? Go yourself.

I really only skimmed the thread, so excuse me if I repeat something that has already been said.

All of this "conspiracy" stuff is about the worst thought-out stuff I've read in a while. Lets suppose it IS a conspiracy. Who has enough money to pay off all of the major networks? The US government. Ok, so why would the government kill a bunch of kids? Even if the kid's parents were some double-agent spy or something, the government would just kill the person, and maybe their family. There really isn't any reason to have a elementary school shot up, or at least nothing that couldn't be accomplished more efficiently in other ways. Maybe you could argue some of the anti-gun lobby wanted a platform for gun legislation, and maybe Bloomberg has enough money to buy off all of the major networks, but a shooting of some sort happens often enough that having some 6 yr olds killed for political purposes just wouldn't be worth the risk/reward. There really isn't any reason for a government figure to set all this up, and anyone who says otherwise needs to put their tinfoil hat in the garbage.

Though one thing that really bothers me about all of this is how eager politicians and the media were to bring up gun control. If I remember right, the discussion began that day and hasn't stopped since. It really is sad how people like Feinstein are just sitting around waiting for people to get killed so they can push their political agendas. Also, as a gun owner, it is really discouraging to see all the incorrect information about firearms being spewed. People are attempting to legislate something they know absolutely nothing about, it's quite disgusting, actually.

So by "make your own judgement" you mean "If you say anything I disagree with you're wrong"? Video is a load of hokey, conspiracy theories show up after every major tragedy. This is a tragedy.

If you want us to make our own judgements stop immediately rebutting everyones' judgements.

This. Tarval, if you want to discuss things, fine, but lets have discussions, not "WELL YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME SO YOURE AN IDIOT" shouting matches, they're quite pointless. REMOVED DUE TO CONTENT BREACH

If you dont like me ow well, at least I did no step down to your level!

what you really meant to say was:
"ONCE I FOUND OUT NOT EVERYBODY THINKS THE SAME AS ME AND IS NOT WILLING TO BELIEVE RANDOM CONSPIRACY THEORIES I DECIDED YOU'RE ALL STUPID AND I'M A GENIOUS WHO CAN'T ASSOCIATE MYSELF WITH YOU AVERAGE PLEBIANS."

REMOVED DUE TO CONTENT BREACH

CENSORED BY THE WHITE STAR CAPTAIN

[Paraicj]

Facade, if that was at me, I haven't entered a discussion. There is no part of me that believes this conspiracy foolishness. So the Father is grieving. Pretty simple.

As I said, it might be fun to invent/pick apart conspiracy theories in the abstract, but that kind of personal attack is wrong. Especially if he's telling the truth and has lost 3 children himself.

[Facade19]

^ Well, I think then I misunderstood what you said Paraicj. Sorry about that. I do not believe in conspiracies, for the connotation the word itself implies ridicules any notion of truth.

Anyway, like I you, I think it is best not to enter this debate, and if I have already done so, like Paraicj, I just want to point out that people have been actually affected by the events that took place. As such, I am out.

But, I just want to point out that the questioning of the people's behavior might not necessarily be a personal attack, but rather a question raised in order to buttress the creator's viewpoint. At least that is the way I am reading the creator's narrative.

With that said, I am out. Risky topic to discuss and I feel unpleasant about it.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Maybe go to Newton and talk to people there, investigate a bit for yourself if you really have questions rather than believing the Internet.. Because you know who says you can believe everything you read on the Internet? the Internet.

Aren't you the one who is refusing to accept what most people believe what happened? Go yourself.

I really only skimmed the thread, so excuse me if I repeat something that has already been said.

All of this "conspiracy" stuff is about the worst thought-out stuff I've read in a while. Lets suppose it IS a conspiracy. Who has enough money to pay off all of the major networks? The US government. Ok, so why would the government kill a bunch of kids? Even if the kid's parents were some double-agent spy or something, the government would just kill the person, and maybe their family. There really isn't any reason to have a elementary school shot up, or at least nothing that couldn't be accomplished more efficiently in other ways. Maybe you could argue some of the anti-gun lobby wanted a platform for gun legislation, and maybe Bloomberg has enough money to buy off all of the major networks, but a shooting of some sort happens often enough that having some 6 yr olds killed for political purposes just wouldn't be worth the risk/reward. There really isn't any reason for a government figure to set all this up, and anyone who says otherwise needs to put their tinfoil hat in the garbage.

Though one thing that really bothers me about all of this is how eager politicians and the media were to bring up gun control. If I remember right, the discussion began that day and hasn't stopped since. It really is sad how people like Feinstein are just sitting around waiting for people to get killed so they can push their political agendas. Also, as a gun owner, it is really discouraging to see all the incorrect information about firearms being spewed. People are attempting to legislate something they know absolutely nothing about, it's quite disgusting, actually.

So by "make your own judgement" you mean "If you say anything I disagree with you're wrong"? Video is a load of hokey, conspiracy theories show up after every major tragedy. This is a tragedy.

If you want us to make our own judgements stop immediately rebutting everyones' judgements.

This. Tarval, if you want to discuss things, fine, but lets have discussions, not "WELL YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME SO YOURE AN IDIOT" shouting matches, they're quite pointless. REMOVED DUE TO CONTENT BREACH

If you dont like me ow well, at least I did no step down to your level!

what you really meant to say was:
"ONCE I FOUND OUT NOT EVERYBODY THINKS THE SAME AS ME AND IS NOT WILLING TO BELIEVE RANDOM CONSPIRACY THEORIES I DECIDED YOU'RE ALL STUPID AND I'M A GENIOUS WHO CAN'T ASSOCIATE MYSELF WITH YOU AVERAGE PLEBIANS."

REMOVED DUE TO CONTENT BREACH

CENSORED BY THE WHITE STAR CAPTAIN

Actually Allerion..!!
If you are not a mind reader, do not ASSUME what people mean.

Only Warning for Harsh Assumptions in this matter, it is flaming/trolling.
This goes for everyone..!!!