The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

[MasterOfNone]

They don't seem very friendly!
Bold style, thanks for posting.

[bloody nunchucks]

Hello! Figured I'd post and see how things are looking especially as ye old world is kind of coming back. I know I have mixed feelings but I'd follow this blog into a new/old game lol. I'm hoping the forum comes back to life as well! Cheers!

[Seredain]

Hello! Figured I'd post and see how things are looking especially as ye old world is kind of coming back. I know I have mixed feelings but I'd follow this blog into a new/old game lol. I'm hoping the forum comes back to life as well! Cheers!

Hi Bloody Nunchucks,

Thanks for checking in! I am very excited indeed by the Old World. What a great ruleset! Sure, cannons still aren't BS weapons for some reason, but with good Line of Sight rules and helpful FAQ on targeting characters already out, who cares! There are so many little changes that it's prohibitive to list them, but so man are so good. New unit formations to use, different weapon rulesets, different timings of different types of spell, new initiative and the charging game, falling back, rationalised Line of Sight rules, combined profiles for monsters, sensible movement rules... overall to me the effect appears to be a real "battle feel". I'm so pleased for the game and for the writers who from what I've seen and in my opinion should be very proud!

I've yet to get my hands on a rulebook, and my meta knowledge remains patchy, but thanks to Facehammer's rules reviews and GMG's High Elves review on YouTube, and particularly using SpellArcher as a sounding board, I've been able to find my starting army. Its introduction follows.

Cheers!

S

[Seredain]

THE OLD WORLD COMETH

Hi Chaps,

What an exciting time! After chiselling away at the rock for a couple of weeks I think I’ve settled on a new army list. The units are sometimes new but the aims are the same: Firstly, to use the High Elves’ talents across movement, magic, shooting and combat to focus resources into a single fist, crack the enemy line, and smash through that vulnerable spot with a crushing cavalry charge as Alexander did at the Battle of Gaugamela. Secondly, to build an army that is balanced enough that it has a chance against any other army. For me, the first joy of this hobby is treading that fine line between these two sometimes competing aims.

By the end of 8th Edition, my personal mission had become something a 1918-style creeping barrage affair, with a battery of ranged weapons and very heavy infantry grinding forward, perhaps with a Helmbus stood poised for counter-attacks.

But now Always Strikes First and our old Martial Prowess rules have been replaced with new Initiative and Step Up rules. The old uniformity of weapon features and Extra Ranks-fighting has been replaced by a new High Elf roster containing more individual units, weapons and upgrades than I think we've ever seen. More enemy armies have weaker armour than before. And the wonderful rules changes over line of sight, charges, counter-charges and fallbacks, give us amazing opportunities to get imaginative and aggressive.

Below is my list with some explanation as to the logic of my choices. I hope it offers you some ideas. In the other direction, I'm keen to see what the Ulthuan Pioneers are cooking up too, so your thoughts are most welcome.

Cheers to a New Era of the Old World!

Best wishes,

S


The List

Prince 130, Blood of Caledor 15, General, Great Weapon 4, Shield 2, Barded Elven Steed 18, Bedazzling Helm 60, Opal Amulet 20, Seed of Rebirth 20 - 269.

Archmage 155, Lvl 4 30, Blood of Caledor 15, High Magic, Barded Elven Steed 18, Spelleater Axe 35, Dragon Helm 10, Cloak of Beards 30, Silvery Wand 15 - 308.

Noble BSB 95, Blood of Caledor 15, Lance 4, Barded Elven Steed 18, Charmed Shield 5, Opal Amulet 20, War Banner 25, Seed of Rebirth 20 - 202.

Mage 80, Level 2 30, Sea Guard, Elementalism, Lore Familiar 30, Plague of Rust, Windblast - 140.

27 Seaguard 297, Veterans 27, Shields 27, Sea Master 7, Musician & Standard 10, Loremaster’s Cloak 25, Blazing Banner 25 - 418.
5 Reavers 80, Spears & shortbows 10, scout 10, skirmish 5 - 105.
5 Reavers 80, Spears & shortbows 10, scout 10, skirmish 5 - 105.

8 Dragon Princes 296, Drakemaster, Musician & Standard 21, Charmed Shield 5, Razor Standard 40 - 362.

19 Sisters of Avelorn 285, Stubborn 19, Champion 7, Ruby Ring of Ruin 30 - 341.
1 Lion Chariot - 125.
1 Lion Chariot - 125.

2,500 points.


Lords of the Sword

Our Lord choices are our first major hinge point. We must choose and from that first choice many things flow. Which way? New magic is tremendous - more spells = more casts. On the other hand, our princes remain one of the few ways of fielding sustained high strength AP attacks which are also survivable (inter alia).

My personal starting principle is that I want a lord to help me kill the meanest enemies in close combat. Close Combat is where break tests and pursuit - the sudden swings of Fate - happen and where you stand to win the most points. Additionally, if your soldiers can be fast enough to stay in combat and hard enough to survive repeated beatings, then close combat is a more efficient tool for killing the enemy than shooting, in principle because you get to fight twice per Battle Round but shoot only once (in most circumstances). High leadership is also important in a game of dice where you may end up on the losing side. Now that Terror inflicts a permanent -1 on Leadership in combat, it’s even more important. I want a prince.

Killing the enemy by engaging in major combats means facing off against enemy lords, so the clincher for the prince (over, say, phoenixes) is that I want a character who can challenge scary enemy lords out and do so effectively (see below). With this in mind, I spent the first two weeks of this honeyed pre-release time toying with a star dragon. It was hard to resist a defensive combination of magic items on a 9 wound dragon fighting at WS7 S7. But as I reflected on the very small army which resulted from my efforts, I realised that I was missing the opportunity to combine or separate component strike pieces as the enemy target demanded. A big dragon would often end up fighting apart from the knights out of necessity, or charging the same target as them in the name of line breaking only to leave me exposed elsewhere. Neither could a dragon benefit from the same buffs as the knights he was intended to fight alongside when, say, a spell was cast upon them. 290 points is a lot to spend elsewhere. And 500 points of dragon lord is also a lot to lose to a Monster Slayer hard-counter (or, yes, Ironblasters). In the name of both tactical utility and risk avoidance, I returned the prince to horseback.


The Cavalry Prince

Happily, the Cavalry Prince in this edition has more utility than ever before. Alone he is an insanely manoeuvrable unit with 360 vision - a wholly new experience for us. Also, the new line of sight and character sniping rules make it much easier to receive cover and shelter from friendly units whilst engaging in this playstyle. With First Charge he will even break a rank bonus solo. These are great tools for enemy hero sniping, backline defence, making flank attacks in support of ranked units, or applying another dose of rank-breaking for a unit which has already charged. These are nice options even as a non-exhaustive list.

As noted above, however, the Prince’s primary intent is to ride with his knights against Alpha targets and, juiced with High Magic and the Razor Standard, seek his destiny in challenges (below). A two rank cavalry bus with BSB and War Banner generates +5 static combat res before casualties. As such you can break monsters if you can reduce their damage output. But that same cavalry bus is also fragile: although a 4+ armour save is good, elite knights will not take kindly to multiple rounds of thunder stomps on top of 6-10 attacks. Even a unit champion may give up +6 CR in a challenge against Alphas and neuter my own +5. I want my prince to accept the challenge and be defensive enough that he bounces wounds to best exploit his bodyguard’s static combat res.

So, for the younger Prince Seredain I embrace Impetuous for WS8, and add -1 to hit, AS2+, a 2+ ward once (also for cannons and killing blows), 6+ the rest of the time and a 5+ regen. In addition, being able to join a unit give the Prince access to a series of great magic buffs and resistances via the Archmage (below). Against peer opponents, a great axe wielded at WS8 with AB3 (Razor Standard), and up to 5 attacks (Fury of Khaine), is good sustained output. Even with a great weapon he is I9 on the charge. The BSB riding with him will take a lance for true Strikes First and to make use of a shield which frees up the Dragon Helm for the Archmage.


Companion Cavalry

Before we get to the magic let’s talk about knights. Because dead models now don’t fight back, playing the new initiative game is key. Any unit going first will have a major advantage against a peer adversary. The most effective way to go first is to charge the enemy for +3I. In Old World, if you can then win by enough that you can force the enemy to fall back you can charge again, effectively on the enemy's turn. Cavalry buses can prosper in this environment, particularly if they have a third circumstance in which they can use their lances by way of a Counter Charge. It is worth underlining this point: in 8th Ed your cavbus got at best one charge per Battle Round. I’ve not done the calculations but the new rules suggest a huge potential uptick in the damage output of heavy lancers.

I have known and loved Silver Helms for 20 years but I think the Dragon Princes now have too many advantages in this role. The first is I5, which means with a counter-charge they will strike before other heavy cavalry. The new Initiative and step up rules make +1I a big deal. Also crucially, a free Redress the Ranks pre-move, from Drilled, overcomes one of the old cavbus’s essential problems: the displacement of elite models into the rear ranks by characters (which, along with multiple fighting ranks in the charge, gave some innate efficiency to Silver Helms with their 1A). Now your knights can filter into the front rank and benefit fully from those 2 (or 3) attacks per model. With Drilled, the extra attacks on dragon princes stand to be much more efficient. Add in Counter-charge and the new rules for charging generally (above) and this is doubly so.

There are many other benefits to Dragon Princes. A 2+ save is much better than a 3+ save. Against AP0 attacks you will roll half as many failures and against AP3 you will have twice as many successes. Against AP1, 3+ is an average success for each save rolled but 4+ a coin toss. WS5 is a key breakpoint against WS2, 4 and 5. Even Ithilmar Weapons add efficiency here and synergise with the Razor Standard in the grind, should your charge fail you. But if you literally fail a charge, you still have Counter-Charge. The enemy charges you and you can still fight first at S5AP2. Dragon Princes play the Initiative game better than basically any unit without Strikes First and they play like knights in a way we’ve never seen before. At 37 points per model, they are obviously expensive. Luckily we have scouting, skirmishing Reavers to shepherd them (or indeed Helms for a harder sceen), and High Magic to protect them. I will need both these tools.


Combat High Archmage

Let's cut to it: Walk Between Worlds causes the caster’s unit to become Ethereal i.e. immune to non-magical attacks until your next turn. : Unless you’re fighting daemons or particular weapons, this spell has the potential to turn any unit you own, particularly with decent static res, into a game-winning unit. If the unit is also killy then it becomes official. It’s target self only (as I *hope* is Shield of Saphery if you want to cast it on a unit fighting in combat, such as the Dragon Princes), so our High Archmage is going to have to suit up and ride forth if he’s going to protect the unit we really care about.

Blood of Calder not only makes your Archmage WS5, for those WS2 hordes, but gives him the Dragon Armour special rule, allowing him to wear armour (but not carry a shield) and still be able to cast spells. Another huge dream for us. An archmage with a 2+ armour save is the dream of legend. Dragon Helm for him. Silver Wand is there to make spell selection more certain, Cloak of Beards to nerf a charge-target with terror tests and -1 Ld, to break it quickly and free the Archmage from combat again. (Cast spells, charge, enemy falls back, knights restrain, Archmage is free to dispel). Spelleater Axe brings magic resistance 2 for the unit and some magical AP attacks (not bad with Fury of Khaine and Razor Standard). With High Magic and Lore of Saphery your cavbus can, in addition to causing Terror and having MR2, be: immune to non-magic attacks, gain +1 attack per rider and steed, have a 5+ ward save, or be unbreakable. You have Vaul’s Unmaking for those key challenges. You have the assailments. As a Lore, High Magic + Lore of Saphery stack very nicely on heavy cavalry.

Most of the High + Saphery spells are combat-friendly, as mentioned (Seaguard are another good recipient), but you still have Tempest and Convocation to win the archer line game alongside 47 bows, Plague of Rust, Wind Blast, Fireball, and Reavers (below). If I come up against a true gun line I can’t outshoot, the Combat Archmage can shift into the Seaguard and turn them into charging ghosts running alongside the heavy knights. High Magic enjoys spells which are quire freely able, compared with other lores, to target units other than the Caster's Own quite freely (Shield of Saphery, Fury of Khaine, Courage of Aenarion). Even if the Archmage leads the infantry between worlds, he can still support my main attack.


Reaver Screens

Ellyrian Reavers don’t look that exciting on paper, but I think they are. With scout and skirmish, they can now deploy anywhere, see anything, snake through any gap to hunt war machines or wizards, double-move and shoot on 3s, pass through all of your units harmlessly on the retreat. Most critically here of course, they’ll screen the dragon princes. I trust they can use their 360 vision to line up lengthways and cover more frontage whilst retaining the option to charge and leaving visibility through gaps for the Cavalry Bus itself to pick its charges. In an ideal world they can charge the same unit as the princes, to be protected from return attacks by the annihilation of their enemies by the heavy cavalry, and then be tasked with pursuing the remnants whilst the knights reform. At worst they provide cover and act as redirectors. They’re pricey in that capacity, but I feel like they offer the utility you need when you’re rolling with 1000 points of impetuosity.


Seaguard Phalanx

I’ve only taken two units of Reavers, for now, because I feel like a narrow cavalry bus made up of killy but ultimately few models needs some sustained static combat resolution to help you push through the tip of the spear. For me that means a close order unit with multiple ranks and a standard. But I also want bows, because long ranged attacks are excellent for clearing the field of chaff - something you can’t reasonably leave to just 10 reavers - or softening a target for your knights before they charge.

Step forth Lothern Seaguard. A 5+ save isn’t bad in a world where AP is distinguished from strength, especially with Shield on top. Spears get you double the attacks at I6 when charged which is good (but only against enemies of I3 or lower- especially lower). At 27 models 9x3, the units also fires 19 warbow shots with Volley Fire (odd-numbered ranks are more efficient because each rear rank rounds up when determining number of shots). Supported by other shooting and magic this is a chunky contribution to a cumulative shooting phase (below). Against large targets you have the full 27 shots and then it becomes particularly dangerous at range when combined with Plague of Rust.

Plague of Rust greatly assists the key genius of this unit in Old World which is that its warbows also win you combat resolution with wounds inflicted by a stand & shoot. A basic infantry unit with spears and bows therefore, when charged, receives 3 x the number of attacks as gets a charging adversary with 1 attack/model (again - a lot of dice to benefit from Plague of Rust). And you can boost your rank bonus as required with the reform. Naval Discipline truly is efficient. As mentioned, against certain armies, those which can mass-murder your infantry but against which your cavalry bus can look after itself, you can deploy the Caledorian Archmage with this unit, particularly if he rolls Walk Between Worlds (above). Then the moderate CR generated by Stand & Shoot, added to static CR+4, really can break units.

To further assist in breaking enemy units engaged by the sea guard, after Plague of Rust I’ve invested in two other tech pieces. Firstly, the Flaming Banner, which causes Fear in swarms and war beasts, cavalry and chariots. This is excellent on a numerous unit for forcing auto-breaks on defeated enemies. Forcing fear tests is also excellent defensively, particularly against heavy cavalry which the Seaboard’s thrusting spears alone may fail to penetrate, and particularly when those heavy cavalry units are small. Secondly, the Lion Chariots (on which more below). Your opponent has to make a much nastier calculation, when charging a T3 infantry unit, if the price to be paid is suffering all those hits, followed by a heavy chariot charge, all at an additional AP-2.

I suspect the Seaguard phalanx will often want to march on Turn 1, to get in a good position early to volley fire thereafter. New Volley Fire rules make it less efficient for infantry to do creeping barrages. As such this unit will sometimes have to pick and choose. From a central battlefield position though, this unit can be an excellent combined board control and forward-moving hinge piece designed to support at range or follow through on a heavy cavalry advance.

Arrows and Spells

The Seaguard have some weaknesses and certainly one of those is their range. By taking them instead of archers, or all sister core, I am essentially admitting that I will be outshot on Turn 1 by a pure gun line. By spending so many points in combat characters and knights I am compounding this situation. To work all comers I therefore need the army to mitigate the risk that my dense, slow, T3 light infantry blob gets blown away by ranged fire. To that end High Magic, with Fiery Convocation, Walk Between Worlds, Shield of Saphery, Tempest (abuse this helpful spell with Naval Discipline and Evasion), and even Vaul’s Unmaking (for the Ruby Ring), is already excellent as repeated above.

However, relying solely on magic is poor judgement, because with magic, the enemy gets a say. So my first instinct is to buy more ranged tools but only to the degree that they have a reasonable chance of combining with the Seaguard. The idea is to build a kind of localised, focussed ranged dominance by a) increasing the army’s shooting power to the degree that it can effectively focus down other ranged units, but b) keep that firepower manoeuvrable so it has more potential to keep up with and focus targets of relevance to the heavy cavalry and/or in its own defence. Having chosen an expensive cavbus and a chunky infantry core, I’ve also essentially surrendered the chance to bamboozle my opponent with MSU cloud deployment shenanigans. This makes it not unlikely that my opponent will be able to deploy his anvil, or perhaps his best hammer, opposite my hammer, or to drop his shooting units within effective strike range of my own. For both reasons I’ve leant into shooting-resistant features or counters like armour, skirmish formation, Evasion or, if you're a close order archer-spearman and getting out of the way is impossible, numbers, the Loremaster’s Cloak and hopefully enough friendly slings and arrows to help you out.

Since the other biggest weakness of Seaguard is obviously their low strength and AP, they are perhaps the biggest reason to take the Level 2 Elemental Mage with the Lore Familiar, for Plague of Rust (above). This makes massed shots much more deadly, particularly on large targets. Windblast is great value at D32+3 5 hits at AP2, and particularly in cheeky 24” shootouts (push those 24” handgun units out of range and force them to advance toward you again!); or for provoking failed charges for your Naval Discipline.


Firebows

It’s hard to introduce Sisters of Avelorn because they have so many special rules. But in my list they principally attempt the mission laid out above, to support my knights, and to combine with & protect the flanks of my Seaguard. They add 19 magical AP-1 shots to the Rusty Wind shooting phase and carry the Ruby Ring. With Ethereal being out there, and regeneration*, magical attacks are an important capability.

For any unit featuring a cavbus, shooting’s first job is to kill redirectors and chaff so your knights can move freely. These archers do it best with 30”, amazing movement, BS5 and Ignore Cover. Additionally, in a straight shootout, -1 to be shot at and Evasive are both. The latter is particularly good for the Seaguard team-up. These archers can move forward, shoot and then retreat behind the spear line when the enemy returns fire. Sisters look to me to be so annoying at range that I anticipate many opponents will want to attack them in combat. I want this: if the enemy advances then I can get behind him. But against enemies that normally like to pick off archers and war machines, sisters are an elite unit. Even against rank and file infantry, I foresee shifting this unit into open order and throwing it into combat. But in the open field anti-chaff game and ranged duel, they really are superb. Good auxiliaries.

There will be double archmage builds out there with an all-sister core that will make opponents tremble. I want my prince, but I still want sisters. Given the demographic insanity that would constitute the practice, by any "dying race", of a women-only magic bows policy, I shall equip the unit with shadow warrior helmets and call them Firebows. Full face coverings are also very useful in a shootout, as Henry V would tell you.


Lion Chariots

These units feel like they fill the gaps in my list. What if the heavy cavalry gets stuck? Apply a Lion Chariot. Seaguard struggling to dent heavy infantry, or about the fall in droves to high initiative attacks? Apply a Lion Chariot. Or two! Generally speaking, these are useful small-frontage high S & T combo-charge pieces in a list which otherwise features wide-faced rank & file units with base S & T 3.

The Lion chariots can follow in the wake of the knights or sit beside / behind the Seaguard. Being non-large units, chariots can shelter very effectively in this new edition, either behind the fast knights or the disciplined infantry. I already have movie-fantasy dreams of the seaguard formed in line, then reforming into square to reveal the lion chariots formerly behind, suddenly ready to charge.

In the full attack role, the chariots are powerful enough that I hope they can serve as lone combatants too where necessary, for instance against archer lines or MSU lists which might attempt swarm or avoid my three blocks. As a straight swap from the star dragon lord, the chariots plus the Cavalry Prince take me from 1 unit drop to 3, which in a small army is a big % increase in deployable units. Stubborn and decent shooting resistance is very useful in this context - lion chariots are better able to go it alone than many single models, and only at moderate points cost (compared with, say, a frost phoenix).

Against shooting lists, lion chariots can provide target saturation whilst still being tough(er) to shoot. Chariots can march now, so even without swiftstride they are probably as fast as you need them to be. However, that smaller charge range does make them particularly happy to shelter behind units with Drilled or Naval Discipline, which I have. Since I don’t have any large monsters or bolt throwers to protect from cannonballs, they can also take the priority hiding places behind terrain.

Damaging, fast, I10 impact hits, Fear, high strength, pretty tough, stubborn. Can play as either line-backer or back-breaker. They feel like good second-line units for this list.


Whither the Eagle Claw?

A few words on my old friends the repeaters, if I may. The big, sweaty elephant in the tiny room of my soul is that this is maybe the first time that I’ve not fielded repeater bolt throwers.

At the core may be an emotional reaction to the nerf these machines’ multishots have taken. They have gone from 6 shots to D3+3 shots at -1 to hit. That last bit really hurts their ability to clear the board of chaff units - a problem for cavalry. Single shots look very effective with their new and improved rank-piercing capabilites, but you have to hit first, and I would want a minimum of 3 machines to feel comfortable about my odds, or better yet 4. Then I can imagine switching out the Elemental Mage for a Battle Mage with Curse of Arrow Attraction and leaning into a more defensive refuse/attack style.

However, I’m worried that a battery of shooters cannot be defended sufficiently well by my small army without all of my shooting being dedicated to that task. And if my shooting units are defending their own it is unlikely that they can simultaneously support the Cavbus. My impetuous heavy cavalry can be managed by reavers for a time, but eventually they’re going to be off the leash. If this happens, I don’t want my attention split between committing to the knights and protecting war machines in the rear, all with a small elite force.

At the Battle of Arsuf in 1191 the Hospitallers, enraged by Ayyubid arrows, could no longer restrain themselves and charged out from the Crusader column, alone, against the enemy. The army's commander, Richard I, saw what was happening, against his orders, and immediately threw his whole force behind this charge to make it work. I expect my High Elves will find themselves in the same position. The Impetuous Cavalry Bus drags my army’s centre of gravity forward. In response, I’ve kept my ranged power manoeuvrable and able to form ranks & fight.

Time to get to it...

With the list above, I hope to adapt to defensive or aggressive requirements but in any case end things with a decapitating strike. Now to do some painting, and put the theory into practice. In the meantime, if you've spotted any mistakes or have any questions, please shoot! Many minds are better than one!

Thanks for reading.

Best wishes,

S

[Giladis]

Interesting read. I haven't even tried to make any army above 2000 pts. The closest I got to that was transferring my current T9A HE army into ToW points to see what is the difference.

[sparkytrypod]

Hi S,

Great list, excited to see how you handle impetuous in game.

Just a couple of things to note, your bus only has +4 static res I believe as heavy cavalry only get a maximum rank bonus of +1. You have, a bsb, warbanner, rank and standard for 4+ static res.

Also, just to note, flaming does not automatically remove regen anymore. I cannot tell from your notes on Sisters if you know this.

I am also interested in your in game experience of 19 sisters! It seems to be a big unit.

How to you get all your Seaguard to fire at monsters/large targets?

Great to see you back,

[Morgen]

Correct. Unless you've got some kind of special rule like Horde, Rank Bonuses are +2 for infantry, +1 for cavalry and chariots.

Looks like a good list. I don't think impetuous is that hard to work around but I'm still in theory mode as I work on rebasing and repairing old models.

[TyrrenAzureblade]

Hi S,

Great list, excited to see how you handle impetuous in game.

Just a couple of things to note, your bus only has +4 static res I believe as heavy cavalry only get a maximum rank bonus of +1. You have, a bsb, warbanner, rank and standard for 4+ static res.

Also, just to note, flaming does not automatically remove regen anymore. I cannot tell from your notes on Sisters if you know this.

I am also interested in your in game experience of 19 sisters! It seems to be a big unit.

How to you get all your Seaguard to fire at monsters/large targets?

Great to see you back,

You're forgetting Close Order.

[sparkytrypod]

Ah yes, thank you, my mistake.

[NHB]

Ah, what a spectacular return

Very detailed analysis and meaningful thoughts behind every single component in the list.

Few points:

Lion Chariot:
- Not sure if it is an oversight by GW. It does not have Move through Cover. White Lions do and Characters on the LC get it via the Chracian Hunter Honour - so then the whole model gets it.
- Impact Hits are actually also at AP -2 (Heavy Chariot)
- With Iron Shod Wheels it seems to be that Fences and such are now completely impassable to Chariots instead of being dangerous terrain.
- With Lumbering you get a free 90° unless you marched, charged or fled.

Sisters:
- I imagine not much really wants to charge these. But you also can't really let your entire flank be shot to pieces by them. S&S in a checkers formation should allow all 19 to shoot. Given that you maneuver carefully and not let them come from the flanks. 18 at 3+ and 1 at 2+ for 12.8 hits for an average of 6.4 Wounds against e.g. your Prince Bus, 2.x of them being AP -3, 4.x AP-1 that is likely 2-3 Dead Dragon Princes. Still not 100% sure if they are taken from the fighting rank. Anyone can reference a page number? Then you might squeeze in another Wound or 2 between Strikes First and re-rolling 1s to hit.
- Good news. The sisters get Skirmish for free. So you have 19 pts spare. Unless you meant to give them Stubborn? You could go 10x naked and 10x with High Sister + Ring for 337 pts. Gives another drop. And the only thing scarier than a unit of sisters on your flank is a unit of sisters on each flank ....

[Halinn]

Nitpicking, because the analysis is otherwise excellent:

- If the Archmage joins the Lothern Seaguard, they lose their Naval Discipline
- As far as I can see, the Fear from Flaming Attacks only works against Swarms and Warbeasts, not Chariots nor Cavalry

[NHB]

Nitpicking, because the analysis is otherwise excellent:

- If the Archmage joins the Lothern Seaguard, they lose their Naval Discipline
- As far as I can see, the Fear from Flaming Attacks only works against Swarms and Warbeasts, not Chariots nor Cavalry

The Archmage is going in the Prince Bus. As it should. If you are going 5 wide or less the Archmage will even be shoved into the 2nd rank and be safe there for a while. It will also not loose much utility with High Magic - only Fiery Convocation cannot be cast from Rank 2. (you do loose 2" of Range for Tempest though). Now - the Champion can only be targeted by Models in Base Contact and the Charmed Shield helps a little also. The Prince will challenge any big hitters, if going up against Rank & File the champion should be happy to take the challenge from the opposite champion against almost anything and kill it first with 3 (or even 4 with Fury) Lance Attacks going first.

The Mage has Sea Guard Honour, so also has Naval Discipline.

[Halinn]

Nitpicking, because the analysis is otherwise excellent:

- If the Archmage joins the Lothern Seaguard, they lose their Naval Discipline
- As far as I can see, the Fear from Flaming Attacks only works against Swarms and Warbeasts, not Chariots nor Cavalry

The Archmage is going in the Prince Bus. As it should. If you are going 5 wide or less the Archmage will even be shoved into the 2nd rank and be safe there for a while. It will also not loose much utility with High Magic - only Fiery Convocation cannot be cast from Rank 2. (you do loose 2" of Range for Tempest though). Now - the Champion can only be targeted by Models in Base Contact and the Charmed Shield helps a little also. The Prince will challenge any big hitters, if going up against Rank & File the champion should be happy to take the challenge from the opposite champion against almost anything and kill it first with 3 (or even 4 with Fury) Lance Attacks going first.

The Mage has Sea Guard Honour, so also has Naval Discipline.

That's why it's nitpicking instead of real criticism, you mentioned the option for the AM to shift into them

" As mentioned, against certain armies, those which can mass-murder your infantry but against which your cavalry bus can look after itself, you can deploy the Caledorian Archmage with this unit, particularly if he rolls Walk Between Worlds (above). Then the moderate CR generated by Naval Discipline, added to static CR+4, really can break units."

[NHB]

Nitpicking, because the analysis is otherwise excellent:

- If the Archmage joins the Lothern Seaguard, they lose their Naval Discipline
- As far as I can see, the Fear from Flaming Attacks only works against Swarms and Warbeasts, not Chariots nor Cavalry

The Archmage is going in the Prince Bus. As it should. If you are going 5 wide or less the Archmage will even be shoved into the 2nd rank and be safe there for a while. It will also not loose much utility with High Magic - only Fiery Convocation cannot be cast from Rank 2. (you do loose 2" of Range for Tempest though). Now - the Champion can only be targeted by Models in Base Contact and the Charmed Shield helps a little also. The Prince will challenge any big hitters, if going up against Rank & File the champion should be happy to take the challenge from the opposite champion against almost anything and kill it first with 3 (or even 4 with Fury) Lance Attacks going first.

The Mage has Sea Guard Honour, so also has Naval Discipline.

That's why it's nitpicking instead of real criticism, you mentioned the option for the AM to shift into them

" As mentioned, against certain armies, those which can mass-murder your infantry but against which your cavalry bus can look after itself, you can deploy the Caledorian Archmage with this unit, particularly if he rolls Walk Between Worlds (above). Then the moderate CR generated by Naval Discipline, added to static CR+4, really can break units."

Ah, I see what you mean. Then of course your point is valid there - and should be expanded by "What happens with Impetuous in that case"

Please don't mistake me for @Seredain, who is the real genius here

[Csjarrat]

Interesting read, cheers. I've found my old mentality of taking big infantry blocks just hasn't worked so far, gonna try a pivot to a dragon princes bus myself and see how we get on

[Seredain]

Interesting read. I haven't even tried to make any army above 2000 pts. The closest I got to that was transferring my current T9A HE army into ToW points to see what is the difference.

Hi Giladis,

Thank you. I started with a 2K dragon list, upgraded to 2.5K because the points per model are still comparable to 8th Ed and because the game table remains large at 6 x 4ft. I feel like the increase base size constitutes mostly a quality of life improvement rather than a paradigm-shifting change. A 2K version of this army probably drops the rust mage and rationalises the Seaguard and then has hard choices to make between the balance of Sisters vs Lion Chariots. But having just finished my 2.5K list I'm not quite ready to fall down that rabbit hole!

Hi S,

Great list, excited to see how you handle impetuous in game.

Just a couple of things to note, your bus only has +4 static res I believe as heavy cavalry only get a maximum rank bonus of +1. You have, a bsb, warbanner, rank and standard for 4+ static res.

Also, just to note, flaming does not automatically remove regen anymore. I cannot tell from your notes on Sisters if you know this.

I am also interested in your in game experience of 19 sisters! It seems to be a big unit.

How to you get all your Seaguard to fire at monsters/large targets?

Great to see you back,

Sparky thanks very much!

You're right to point out that Regeneration isn't always affected by flaming attacks - I was aware just failed to mention it. I guess I put it in a general bucket because of trolls, although I suppose we might also expect Tomb Kings to be popular. Magical attacks remain super effective in a similar manner, because apart from specific regeneration saves on specific units, magic attacks also bypass certain ward saves (eg phoenix guard, swordmasters - and I trust a wider feature).


Managing Impetuous

My instinct is as Morgan says that Impetuous is probably something we can manage. Three remedies spring to mind other than just making your unit hard as nails: firstly that we have good fast screening units in the Reavers; secondly we have the option of taking a reform after a win in combat, on a successful Ld test, to point in an advantageous direction (very important not to chase after defeated enemies only to be facing the wrong targets!); and thirdly, assuming that Counter Charge wins you the right to strike first, the Dragon Princes have a good inbuilt defence against the risks of exposing themselves to enemy charges.

Monster hunting with archer infantry

For Monster Hunting, you want to deploy your big archer blocks in the middle of the table and have them stay close to a target the monster may wish to charge (and since they are very stompable, this may include the Seaguard themselves). Deploy the Seaguard in good proximity to the rest of your units and anything that tries to attack them comes into range. If the enemy monster finds a way to rush into combat, perhaps via terrain, or simply shrugs off your shots, you have the numbers and leadership to hold, and for counter-attacks the lion chariots and of course the Cavbus itself.


NHB,

Thank you you’re very kind! Great comments. In turn:

Yes you have it right I think on Lion Chariots except that I suspect GW left Move Through Cover off these units deliberately. Obviously a Prince has got the Jason Statham moves, but the normal guys are probably chariots first and forest walkers second. If so, it does go against the principle of chariots in the core rulebook: being that they share the special rules of their constituent crew and beasts, but this could be one of those instances where the effects of the rules for characters are not the same as for ordinary units (eg Counter Charge attaching to an elven steed character mount, but not to Silver Helms).

On Sisters, great catch on Skirmish v Stubborn! I actually missed that it was free. So many rules! I’ll take the latter for sure. List amended with thanks. That really does create a good flank guard unit at reasonable cost.


One large unit of Sisters vs two small

I have thought about splitting them but a couple of things stop me. Firstly the aforementioned flank guard role I want this unit to play ultimately involves getting into combat, or at least poses the risk of it, and since these archers are not tough I prefer to have the bodies either to ensure the unit stands and therefore plays its defensive role, or has the option to reform into Open Order and charge into combat with a +2 rank bonus.

There are arguments to be made both ways looking at sisters and Stubborn, though. Since a unit of 19, perhaps already under-strength, could theoretically die in the second round of combats, having used its Stubborn, without too much more difficulty than a unit of 10. But I like the idea that the 19 Sister unit could actually serve as combat infantry and win, rather than be limited by necessity to the speed-bump role. Two small untis of Sisters would have nice interoperability with the Lion chariots, Seaguard and Princes, though. I may well experiment!

What stops me running the Sisters MSU for now is that 19 models in one unit can focus its damage output more effectively. Ranked up in diagonals so they can all see, a decent sized unit can get all its shots off across a relatively small frontage, make a stand-and-shoot with all its shots and freely bring as many models into base contact to fight in close combat as the enemy frontage allows. It will force panic tests upon, or gobble up, MSU infantry but it also has the numbers to tackle or hold other targets.

What comes to mind last, but certainly not least, is that a single larger unit gains more benefit from having a spell cast upon it (or a fighting character join it), than a small unit. Since lots of my new Old World magic phases consists of unit buffs, this is a factor in an all-comers context.


Halinn,

Thanks for saying so - very kind! You’re quire right to correct me - I meant Stand & Shoot not Naval Discipline. The latter must have sounded cooler in the moment. Corrected with thanks!

I'll write a little more about the Archmage and Seaguard in a little while. Right now I'm taking toddlers for a roast dinner and to have a pint. I'll return shortly to those other comments not mentioned.

Cheers all!

S

[Prince of Spires]

I'm curious why you took the War Banner over the Battle Banner. A potential 1 or 2 extra static CR, for 35 pts more sounds like a good deal, especially if you're relying on breaking stuff. Yes, it's points which need to be found somewhere (maybe the stubborn on the sisters...), but it adds that extra punch for a potential 7 static CR on the bus.

[NHB]

NHB,

Thank you you’re very kind! Great comments. In turn:

On Sisters, great catch on Skirmish v Stubborn! I actually missed that it was free. So many rules! I’ll take the latter for sure. List amended with thanks. That really does create a good flank guard unit at reasonable cost. I have thought about splitting them but a couple of things stop me. Firstly the aforementioned flank guard role I want this unit to play ultimately involves getting into combat, or at least poses the risk of it, and since these archers are not tough I prefer to have the bodies either to ensure the unit stands and therefore plays its defensive role, or has the option to reform into Open Order and charge into combat with a +2 rank bonus.

Some further thoughts on that and Skirmishers in general:

Cons:

• Charging skirmishers into an enemy will only let you move as many models into the fighting rank as can come into base contact. E.g. enemy 3 rank infantry = 5, 4 rank infantry or chariot = 6 (already engaged with your Seaguard -1 because you can't overlap your unit)
• Reforming costs the entire movement, you will count as moved and lose a bunch of shots (half if you go 10 wide, 3/4 for 5 wide) in that turn, sadly no Volley Fire if you moved / reformed
• and a -1 for moving.
• Can't charge until your next turn again - and if the enemy unit is gone/destroyed by glorious Ulthuan forces/overran out of arc after winning combat (Asur forbid!) - you might be in a bad or at least not very valuable position
• and need to reform again! Back into skirmishers, again wasting a turn, and getting -1 to shooting.
• Coherency: If you lose coherency, you have to remove part of your unit as casualties!! if aligning in 10-9 skirmish a lucky cannon shot or template or fanatic can rip your unit in pieces and you need to remove one of the parts (you'll pick the smaller one of course). However it says in the Coherency rule: When removing casualties from a unit of Skirmishers, you cannot remove a model if doing so would cause the unit to lose its coherency So Coherency not a problem? Why then the second sentence: Should it ever occur that a unit of Skirmishers has lost its coherency, you must remove models from play as casualties until only a single, coherent group remains. In such cases, the models removed are assumed to have fled the battle in a most cowardly fashion.
• Reinforcements, if they have to come on like that due to scenario, every single model has to come on within 1" of the board edge - so basically a full 19"+a little spacing limiting severely where you could enter them into the battle or come in at open order with the need to reform into skirmish. With aforementioned negatives on reforming.
• Reavers are Unit Strength 2 and don't get -1 for being shot at!!
• No Rank Bonus, no Disruption from Skirmishers.

Pros:

• 360° vision and shooting
• can occupy a rather big area of the board for board control
• or a rather small area of the board and retain all shots.
• Easy to operate outside the enemies Movement range to guarantee Stand & Shoot
• -1 to be shot at for Sisters and Shadow Warriors
• I think you get to Reform "around" the model of your choosing regardless of distance, so in a 10-9 config in checkers or diamond that could be a considerable distance if you reform on the left most or right most model. Seems broken.
• Skirmishers don't cause Panic if fleeing through Close Order or Open Order units. E.g. a Lion Chariot.

is 19 pts Stubborn worth it, if you don't plan to lose combat anyway?

[Prince of Spires]

Reforming costs the entire movement, you will count as moved and lose a bunch of shots (half if you go 10 wide, 3/4 for 5 wide) in that turn, sadly no Volley Fire if you moved / reformed

Not sure what you mean here. Can you elaborate? Also, you have no ranks as a skirmishing unit. As such, you also have no Volley fire. Instead, everyone in the unit who can see the target (in any direction) can shoot. So if you have a 10-9 diamond configuration and you're shooting straight ahead, then all 19 models can shoot. Models of their own unit block LOS, so they can get in the way. But if they don't then shoot away.

[NHB]

Refering to Seredains comment that he might want to ask the sisters to switch to open rank and engage into combat for the +2 rank bonus.

[Prince of Spires]

Refering to Seredains comment that he might want to ask the sisters to switch to open rank and engage into combat for the +2 rank bonus.

Thanks

[sparkytrypod]

Hi S,

I just noticed you are list building for 2500 points, do you think this will be played over 2,000?

[Seredain]

NHB, Rod,

Thanks both for the interesting comments.

Skirmish / Open Order interactions

With regards to skirmish units reforming into open order and / or back again, for the reasons NHB sets out above it'll rarely be worth spending your movement phase on it on any turn in which you start in skirmish mode. The only scenario in which I've imagined this happening is after the Sisters break or kill a light enemy unit in combat (whilst in Skirmish mode) and then take the free reform from victory with a view to launching a charge into another light unit, goblin rank and file, or perhaps the flank of something harder already engaged. Otherwise +2CR will rarely be worth losing all the benefits skirmish brings your shooting.

The Sisters, if facing off against a horde of rank and file which intends to rush forward, can however start off in Open Order in the fair certainty that you can stand still, volley fire, and will soon end up in combat anyway unless you've found some other way to shield the army's flank. Sisters make a great combat unit against goblins!

Skirmishers as redirectors

The wording on how units charge skirmishers isn't 100% clear but the gap in the language appears adequately covered by the diagram used in the rulebook. My reading of the rules is that the charging unit must move towards the closest model in the skirmishing target unit, then maximise on it, then the rest of the enemy skirmisher models will move into contact with the charging unit, maximising against its front rank.

As such, the angle of the closest skirmisher model should direct the facing of the charging unit.

Stubborn Sisters

The importance of protecting the army's flank is, considering its relatively small size, important enough that the chance to take stubborn on essentially one quarter of my battle line, for 19 points, feels like good value. This is a gut feeling but looking at the unit again I think it bears out. Stubborn buys you certainty where otherwise you have a dice roll. For a critical roll, that's gold. Skirmishers have no static resolution, so stubborn fills a real niche for them in principle. But for this unit I think it becomes particularly strong in the context of all their other abilities. Your elite archers can evade and are at -1 to hit, so grinding them down with shooting will frequently be a nightmare.

In the event that ranged attacks were ineffective, you would typically want to break expensive archers like this in combat and run them down. This would be the most efficient way of clearing T3 AS6+ elves. 19 elves is however enough that you would have to commit something real - reasonably killy and/or with static res - chaff won't do it. But if you do then proceed to attack with a unit of this description and succeed in inflicting lots of casualties on the sisters, instead of breaking you may still find yourself held in place for a lion chariot charge.

I'd say this is good layered defence, particularly so if the Sisters have deployed on the far side of the Seaguard from the Cavbus Leadership (which I suspect will be my typical deployment).

The Battle Banner and the Cavbus of Ultimate Resolution

Prince,

You've hit on something I'm agonising over too. Instinctively I don't like the Battle Banner as an alternative to the War Banner because the latter is guaranteed value and the former could see you losing out on value when you roll 1 or 2s. How demoralising it would be to roll 1 in a key combat!

I actually had the Battle Banner in my first draft. My feeling is that the its true genius probably lies in adding it to the War Banner, since every additional point of victory is worth more and more value (because reducing leadership from, say, 7 to 6 gets you a bigger % effect than from 8 to 7). So suddenly that 60 points is bringing more bang for its buck on top of the War Banner's guaranteed +1. War Banner on the Dragon Princes (25) and Battle Banner on the BSB (60) would give you a Cavbus with +6-8 Static Res. This is fantastic.

The afford this I could exchange the Razor Standard (40pts), Stubborn on the Sisters (19) and a Charmed Shield (5). I think it's worth running for sure.

The Razor Standard

In the current draft list above, I've been seduced by the capacity of Armour Bane to, a bit like Stubborn, bring my unit a brand new capability it did not previously have. Ordinarily, 6s get you nothing, so if you can have them do something that’s a big deal value wise (because mathematically, something is literally infinitely more than nothing). Back in the real world, rolling a lot of dice (as the DP Bus does, particularly with Drilled), should mean rolling 6s. If you have enough attacks to roll sufficient 6s which convert into 1-3 extra wounds, then you have your Battle Banner value but as damage. The clincher for me at this stage, other than the cost differential, is that this capability is particularly valuable against Peer opposition to the Cavbus which will be, often, the heaviest-armoured enemy cavalry, monsters and lords out there.


Edit: a Comparison of Flags

Looking at a few key matchups, I think the Razor Standard scrapes it. Against heavy cavalry it gets you an extra couple of dead knights, which against things like cold one riders is a major-swing in one-rank fighting. Against low-armoured T4 or less enemies, I expect the Dragon Princes and characters to put out enough damage that the extra CR from the Battle Banner probably isn't necessary. At the other end of the scale is the Monsterlord matchup. Here my initial reaction was the extra CR from Battle Banner would be clutch. But against my defensive prince build, enemy dragonlords are odds-on unlikely to score enough points in a challenge that my Bus's native +4-5 static CR doesn't win the combat with the added benefit of a musician. If at Unit Strength 18, 9 models or above (i.e. double a Star dragonlord's Unit strength), the Cavbus only needs to win combat by 1 point to auto-break the monster. As such the Battle Banner would be over-kill even here only as the Cavbus loses models.

By taking the Razor Standard I am taking a gamble that I can make it pay before I lose enough knights that the unit begins to thirst for some guaranteed combat res and runs out of dice for Armour Bane. But since i have invested points in screening the unit and protecting it with magic and lordly challenges, for now I think I prefer the aggressive option if it also buys me a Stubborn Sister unit into the bargain.

The Combat Archmage in Seaguard

Halinn,

Thanks again for your comment on this, which correctly pointed out that the Seaguard could not use Naval Discipline if the Archmage moved into them. This is correct!

Essentially you accept this for the chance to turn the unit into ghosts. As explained above, the typical instances you want to do this will be against an enemy which a) doesn’t threaten the Cavbus sufficiently that you want to turn it ethereal and b) features units that you want to charge with the Seaguard. If these conditions are met then the Archmage can upgrade the Seaguard from a partial-ranged and positional threat into an alpha threat.

Hence I used bowlines as an example in the note. Against theses you’re not expecting to receive charges: you”re taking your Seaguard and either turning them into another major combat threat against enemy archers, giving them the edge in the long-range shootout (assuming the enemy’s shots are non-magical). Other instances may include those horde lists which feature infantry models of generally inferior stats and where you may feel charging and breaking the enemy is a more efficient use of time than shooting them.

The above isn’t Plan A, but the Combat High Archmage gives you tools for these various reasonably plausible scenarios.

Interesting read, cheers. I've found my old mentality of taking big infantry blocks just hasn't worked so far, gonna try a pivot to a dragon princes bus myself and see how we get on

Csjarrat,

Thanks for the kind comment. I think the Dragon Princes perform but happily for infantry fans, they also give you a good reason to run infantry, since the one thing they don’t bring (at least for very long) as a good rank bonus. Close Order also stacks one unit on top of another, so a cheap core infantry unit can be a cost-effective way of stacking more static res into a combat. If that same unit can also be sufficiently meaty that it can hold its ground for 2-3 rounds, then it also buys your knights time to get round and into the flank or rear. Infantry alone might struggle, albeit that’s TBC, but alongside cavalry it feels good. (Particularly if it also shoots!)


Cheers,

S

[Seredain]

Hi S,

I just noticed you are list building for 2500 points, do you think this will be played over 2,000?

2,000 v 2,500 in the New Old World

Sparky,

My gut feeling is not only yes, 2.5K will be played, but also that it's preferable. At first I thought not, because the new bases were bigger and, because GW were selling the "this is a new game" hype, I thought they'd make the tables 40K-sized. But then they kept 6 x 4ft.

As such, firstly, I think the base-size increase was done as a quality of life improvement for players but doesn't change the way the game works. Old Warhammer armies might often look a little lost on these big tables, huddled in a corner, but now the armies will occupy the board in a more attractive manner and in a way which drags the battle away from the table edges - a net good. There's also the aesthetic and practical value: new wider bases are much more stable and easier to rank up than the old tiny bases. I would say the new base sizes work better but it doesn't really change the way the game essentially functions.

So what has changed that I think touches on army value norms?

I would say one apparently modest but I think material shift in the Game's internal logic, is that GW have kept the 25% core requirement for every army but relaxed the restrictions on Lord choices. Before you could only have 25% of your set army value spent on Lords. Now you can have 50% characters in any combination with certain, ultimately less restrictive, numerical limits. The end result is that you can now take easily more powerful Lords and/or Lord Combos in Old World 2,000 point games than in 8th Ed (excluding End Times). For instance we can field an Archmage and Dragonlord plus BSB in a 2K list - previously impossible. At the same time, every army remains vulnerable to these same powerful units by, at least, having to field (generally inferior) core units.

A feature of Old Fantasy was that 2K or smaller armies could be very skewed, in a min/max sense, because the hardest Mega Lords took up a bigger relative share of the game and faced fewer points of potential counters on the other side. As such they could more easily dominate. With the new freer character selection rules, combined monster-rider profiles and generally fewer attacks and less AP coming out of ranked units, Old World feels like it has retained and perhaps enhanced this feature/bug, even with the slightly toned-down magic items.

So, I feel that to retain that "Army Feel" that Warhammer is all about, I like 2,500 points. You are still restricted to 2K lord power levels, but the increased points allowance elsewhere dilutes their effect in proportional (%) terms, and it gives each army the chance to balance out their abilities and field counters.

The clincher for me is that there seems to be more of a commitment by the Designers than ever to provide a variety of different unit types with distinct roles. As such I'm grateful for the opportunity to field more of them!

I wouldn't carve any of the above into stone. We're right at the beginning of a new game system. But this is my feel.

Cheers,

S

[sparkytrypod]

I agree with your sentiments.
I played 2 games at the weekend.
These games were mostly dominated by Lords, a couple of more moving pieces would have added some more layers to the game.

Although at 2k points the games go quickly which is a plus.

[NHB]

Hey Seredain,
I think your edited thoughts on the Banners are spot on. 8+ static combat res sounds fun, but the Cav Bus isn't going to need it. Hence overcommited (or one might say, wasted) points.

Another thought on the Sisters:

I think we have established:
- they are annoying to shoot at
- they are annoying to charge even by the toughest of enemies
- they can't be redirected or chaffed

The only thing that's left is Magic. So: Loremasters Cloak instead of Ruby Ring? or are the avg. 7 hits S4 hits/turn too juicy to pass up? or Ruby Ring +1 Lodestone?
There are some 3-4 Magic Missile/turn builds out there, that would reduce the Sisters to a burning pile of ash T1 if they are in range/vision.

I wonder, if we are too stubborn to drop the Stubborn points , simply because we remember it to be such a good rule in previous editions. It is only a shadow of what it once was. Only the first time of asking you may FBIGO and Unit Strength disparity is disregarded. With S&S counting into combat res I can't see them loosing combat unless pitted against a points invest of close to double their value. e.g. kitted out lord on monster / Cav Bus etc.

Sadly it looks like Step up is only in the PHASE, S&S happens in the movement phase, so they will have to take the full fighting rank attacks, or do they? because they get to strike first. So even against a chariot they strike at I10, same time as impact hits.

Let's take one of the toughest Chariots out there as an example: Gorebeast Chariot.

19 S&S shots hitting on 3s (1 on 2s) should give 12.8 hits
Now at T5 6s are needed, so avg. 12.8 -> 2.x 6s @AB2+AP1 so only 6+ Armour for 2 Wounds most times.
The Chariot is 60mm wide, so you only get 5 models in Base Contact.
Hitting on 4s for 2.5 hits but re-rolling 1s for closer to 3.
and again 6s to wound for 0.5 wounds.

Then 2 Sisters die to impact hits and likely 2-3 more to the riders and the beast. So you lose combat by 3. Now you can pop your Stubborn and FBIGO, full flee is around 27% at LD8.
Ideally you have already peeled 1-2 wounds off the chariot before they charge in and they die to S&S. Such force concentration and the ability to retain offensive output of the Chariots must make them prime targets to protect the sisters.
Lighter Chariots won't survive a single S&S

Against Heavy Cav they will strike first and peel off some models from the fighting rank and likely win combat. Light Cav might not even make it into combat due to S&S. Infantry should not be able to charge them due to your smart maneuvering, unless you want them to. And again here striking first and rerolling 1s.

Final question. The Wizarding Hat exists. Our only option to source the other Lores of Magic. No Signatures seem very exciting for the sisters, some spells could be nice but 1/6 is a slim chance. However - one could fall back to Courage of Aenarion. It needs 10+ to cast (-1 due to L1), But it is RIP. So it also needs 11+ to dispel. But it also ends when the High Sister is slain, but the opponent must remember to allocate attacks. And there is also the Stupidity.... maybe something more for a beer and pretzels game. But 19 pts for FBIGO once and 45 pts for a true unbreakable could be debated.

[sparkytrypod]

Edited

[Csjarrat]

Hey Seredain,
I think your edited thoughts on the Banners are spot on. 8+ static combat res sounds fun, but the Cav Bus isn't going to need it. Hence overcommited (or one might say, wasted) points.

Another thought on the Sisters:

I think we have established:
- they are annoying to shoot at
- they are annoying to charge even by the toughest of enemies
- they can't be redirected or chaffed

The only thing that's left is Magic. So: Loremasters Cloak instead of Ruby Ring? or are the avg. 7 hits S4 hits/turn too juicy to pass up? or Ruby Ring +1 Lodestone?
There are some 3-4 Magic Missile/turn builds out there, that would reduce the Sisters to a burning pile of ash T1 if they are in range/vision.

I wonder, if we are too stubborn to drop the Stubborn points , simply because we remember it to be such a good rule in previous editions. It is only a shadow of what it once was. Only the first time of asking you may FBIGO and Unit Strength disparity is disregarded. With S&S counting into combat res I can't see them loosing combat unless pitted against a points invest of close to double their value. e.g. kitted out lord on monster / Cav Bus etc.

Sadly it looks like Step up is only in the PHASE, S&S happens in the movement phase, so they will have to take the full fighting rank attacks, or do they? because they get to strike first. So even against a chariot they strike at I10, same time as impact hits.

Let's take one of the toughest Chariots out there as an example: Gorebeast Chariot.

19 S&S shots hitting on 3s (1 on 2s) should give 12.8 hits
Now at T5 6s are needed, so avg. 12.8 -> 2.x 6s @AB2+AP1 so only 6+ Armour for 2 Wounds most times.
The Chariot is 60mm wide, so you only get 5 models in Base Contact.
Hitting on 4s for 2.5 hits but re-rolling 1s for closer to 3.
and again 6s to wound for 0.5 wounds.

Then 2 Sisters die to impact hits and likely 2-3 more to the riders and the beast. So you lose combat by 3. Now you can pop your Stubborn and FBIGO, full flee is around 27% at LD8.
Ideally you have already peeled 1-2 wounds off the chariot before they charge in and they die to S&S. Such force concentration and the ability to retain offensive output of the Chariots must make them prime targets to protect the sisters.
Lighter Chariots won't survive a single S&S

Against Heavy Cav they will strike first and peel off some models from the fighting rank and likely win combat. Light Cav might not even make it into combat due to S&S. Infantry should not be able to charge them due to your smart maneuvering, unless you want them to. And again here striking first and rerolling 1s.

Final question. The Wizarding Hat exists. Our only option to source the other Lores of Magic. No Signatures seem very exciting for the sisters, some spells could be nice but 1/6 is a slim chance. However - one could fall back to Courage of Aenarion. It needs 10+ to cast (-1 due to L1), But it is RIP. So it also needs 11+ to dispel. But it also ends when the High Sister is slain, but the opponent must remember to allocate attacks. And there is also the Stupidity.... maybe something more for a beer and pretzels game. But 19 pts for FBIGO once and 45 pts for a true unbreakable could be debated.

Not sure you can swap out for courage though as they won't have the lore of saphery rule. You're stuck with whatever sig spell you get from the nominated lore of the hat afaik

[Morgen]

Yes, you're correct. You need the Lore of Saphery special rule to have access to those three spells. The ghost haunting that hat unfortunately wasn't a high elf mage so it's not a valid choice. Hammerhand is debatable a solid choice though. Signature spell from Battle Magic so you can always count on having it. You're casting it at initiative 10 because you've got Strikes First on your Handmaiden. You're going to fail the stupidity check like 27% of the time but them blundering forward usually won't be a big problem since they're pretty good archers and they ignore cover. It does make me wonder what skirmishers stupidly stumbling forward looks like... I guess they'd go in the direction of the front arc of the Handmaiden?

[Tethlis]

Late to the party. The list logic tracks. In particular, I think this is the first list I've seen that leverages our Honors in a way that does more than unlock the ability to take a mount or join a unit. Interesting stuff. I'm still very wary of Impetuous and the traps that someone could set, primarily by blocking the movement of the Cavalry Bus with a cheap unit, and baiting that charge to set up counter charges. But unit itself should hold up okay even if it doesn't get the charge, and the probability of straight Breaking on a Ld10 rerollable with high, durable Unit Strength is pretty unlikely.

Walk Between Worlds is just a wild spell. I tried it over the weekend, and even not commiting it to a dedicated combat unit, it's ability to frustrate and annoy and opponent is immense. It's well worth investing around.

I think the durable Lord and your read on challenges is accurate. My list over the weekend has a Lord with 2+/5++, who still barely survived a single round with a challenge-oriented Dwarf King, doing zero damage (Dwarven fighting characters and their units Hate enemy characters this edition, watch out.) A good cautionary tail. The obvious choice from that outcome, as you imply is to just mount him up on a monster and get durability that way. But I'm also interested in seeing what the game has to offer besides Star Dragon, Go!

Keep us posted if you get a chance to play. I'd also like 2500 to be the norm, not just because I've been playing that size for years outside TOW, but I agree that it offsets the fact that 6th was basically the least big block friend edition of the game, and TOW is largely the spiritual successor to that. Many solid TOW armies won't look or feel like regimental armies, and 2500 does help offset that phenomenon.