The 7th Edition Book

[Elaithnir]

Ok, I just finished reading my 7th Ed book and, in spite of a few glaring spelling errors and grammatical faux pas, the fluff section is a hell of a lot better than 6th...also, some of the mysteries we had in 6th have been solved, notably Morelion!
So, simple topic really. What effect has the 7th book had on the fluff of the Asur? Anything we know now that we didn't before? What have we lost? (Eltharion the Swordmaster for one... )
Later!
E

[Garadehl]

The 7th edition book gets us back on track where we were headed with 5th edition. Apparently Eltharion didn't go on a pointless mission to Anlec to get wiped out by a wave of Malekith's little finger after all. It doesn't present any new stories (a part from some mage that turned himself into a plant ) but is otherwise a much better book for beginning elf players to get to know an in depth history.

So as good as 5th edition for fluff, no grand plot advancement though... Not that you'd want much considering the Asur are dying out (even more so now apparently). 6th edition should just be burnt.

[Dargon]

Apparently Eltharion didn't go on a pointless mission to Anlec to get wiped out by a wave of Malekith's little finger after all.

Not entirely true. GW seem to have left the recent expansions of the High Elf storyline completely up in the air.

Other recent Armybooks have made mention of the Storm of Chaos events, while the High Elf timeline now (once again) grinds to a halt 21 years in the past. Eltharion's recent storyline isn't so much erased, simply omitted. GW havn't (yet) done anything to overwrite or replace all the new High Elf background, so (theoretically) it all (Albion, The Dark Elf Invasion, Eltharion's capture, rehibilitation and retaliation, and the Storm of Chaos) still exists and remains a part of Warhammer history until GW actively write in something contradictory.

Just a thought...

[Ruerl Khan]

So as good as 5th edition for fluff, no grand plot advancement though... Not that you'd want much considering the Asur are dying out (even more so now apparently). 6th edition should just be burnt.

Agreed with you on so many points, for example that Eltharion, after making a pointless attack, got to be able to fight that well again was pretty stupid, that he managed to just wade into dark elf territorry with a relativedly small army and continue there successfully where idiocy, that he managed to actually hurt Shadowblade despite being blind by "hearing" shadowblade was rubbish, that he managed as the first elf in history to jump up and scar Malekith was also idiocy.

Heck, not even Tyrion is capeable of parrying dark elven assassins very well, he just have a very good armour, and I honestly believe Tyrion, a LOT better fighter, and general than Eltharion.

And if Tyrion could not do the above, why the %¤%¤¤! should Eltharion then be able to do it?

[FVC]

also, some of the mysteries we had in 6th have been solved, notably Morelion!

Enlighten someone who doesn't have the book - what happened to Morelion? Last I recall he sailed east during Aenarion's reign and was never heard of again.

Heck, not even Tyrion is capeable of parrying dark elven assassins very well, he just have a very good armour, and I honestly believe Tyrion, a LOT better fighter, and general than Eltharion.

What's so wrong about Eltharian hearing Shadowblade's movements and hitting him? Shadowblade's a talented Dark Elf assassin, nothing more. There is nothing inconsistent in letting an equally talented High Elf swordmaster wound him in a fight. We've been told swordmasters can fight by the sound of an opponent's breathing before, and have even seen Eltharion do it, to Belannaer.

Eltharion is a prodigy. I have the WD about that invasion and it all seemed to make sense there. Eltharion and Alith Anar led an expeditionary force to Naggaroth (and about time too; before that the war had always been the Dark Elves on the offensive) and defeated the first Dark Elf army that marched out to counter them. Malekith sends Shadowblade to kill Eltharion, and he strikes during the battle, wounding Eltharion but being ultimately driven off. Afterwards it's pointed out that the expedition has nothing to gain but dead Dark Elves, and unlike the Dark Elves High Elves should not measure victory in terms of dead enemies and they make the expedition return to Ulthuan, much to Eltharion's objections.

What's the matter with it? In essence it's a High Elf raid on the shores of Naggaroth. What, are you annoyed that they can do it back?

And if Tyrion could not do the above, why the %¤%¤¤! should Eltharion then be able to do it?

As regards assassins, you're assuming Tyrion couldn't hit a Dark Elf assassin or dodge his blows. I take it you're thinking of the duel with Urian Poisonblade, in which case I'd point out that not only did Tyrion win that duel, Urian was quite possibly the greatest warrior in the whole of Naggaroth, and that most Dark Elf assassins, Shadowblade included, aren't on Urian's level.

And as for scarring Malekith, there's nothing weird about that. Malekith isn't a god - he's perfectly scar-able. Malekith was overconfident, Eltharion got free, and managed to injure the Witch King in his escape. It's not even the first time a High Elf has wounded Malekith, if I may point out Teclis.

[Ruerl Khan]

Several points are wrong, and you are missing them

1: On shadowblade: Shadowblade is *the* most talented assassin in Naggaroth currently, and his hallmark? That he does'nt make any sounds, at all, that means that Eltharion should hear him? Come on, thats far fetched.

2: Eltharion is a: Blind b: Has been so less than a decade c: became a swordmaster in less than a decade.

3: He is able to "hear" Shadowblade in the midst of a battlefield, there are a *LOT* of noises on a battlefield, hearing "the opponents breath" in a duel is all fine and dandy, very high fantasy and very cliché, but in the midst of a battlefield? Just silly.

As regards assassins, you're assuming Tyrion couldn't hit a Dark Elf assassin or dodge his blows. I take it you're thinking of the duel with Urian Poisonblade, in which case I'd point out that not only did Tyrion win that duel, Urian was quite possibly the greatest warrior in the whole of Naggaroth, and that most Dark Elf assassins, Shadowblade included, aren't on Urian's level.

WS 10 (Shadowblade), compared to? My point here is that Tyrion gets hit, quite a bit, not that he loses, he also has the advantage towards Eltharion that he's actually well enough protected to survive combating such deadly foes.

My problem is not with the high elves making an invasion, even if it fluff wise gives the dark elves a blow on the only place where they had remained victorious otherwise and lets the high elven ideology of "we always win in the end" come true, my problem is with the entire Eltharion storyline being utterly stupid from the moment on when he is returned alive to that he manages to become a swordmaster with nearly no sweat (and in elven terms, being blinded and learning to fight as a swordmaster in less than a decade, *is* no sweat), and that he then, with this superior training manages to do what most swordmasters could'nt even begin to dream about.

THAT I find silly, it degrades the value of what a swordmaster is, if it took less than a decade, can you then point out, a single reason, why the dark elves would not have such warriors also?

To me the reason the dark elves does'nt have such warriors, is because they lack the inner peace, the swordmasters are warrior monks meditating, seeking wisdom, through their path.

Eltharion did not ever learn that inner peace, not before, not after, he is hatefull and spitefull, just like a dark elf, for that reason alone he should never have been able to complete his training to such an extent.

If one such as he can learn it, so quickly, it pretty much decreases the value of being a swordmaster to just being a combat form, in wich case the dark elves would have the ability to become such warriors in great numbers as well.

-See the point of my objection now?

[FVC]

1: On shadowblade: Shadowblade is *the* most talented assassin in Naggaroth currently, and his hallmark? That he does'nt make any sounds, at all, that means that Eltharion should hear him? Come on, thats far fetched.

He needs to breathe, does he not? Shadowblade must make noises, which are evidently enough for Eltharion to track him.

2: Eltharion is a: Blind b: Has been so less than a decade c: became a swordmaster in less than a decade.

This is true.

3: He is able to "hear" Shadowblade in the midst of a battlefield, there are a *LOT* of noises on a battlefield, hearing "the opponents breath" in a duel is all fine and dandy, very high fantasy and very cliché, but in the midst of a battlefield? Just silly.

It's no sillier than Shadowblade being able to stab a sleeping man twenty times with guards inside the same room, and each guard failing to see or hear anything, or even being wounded.

Let's be fair. Either they're both 'silly', or we agree to grant them some leeway due to it being a fantasy world and all. Can Eltharion focus that well? Possibly so. Tuning out extraneous noises is not something intrinsically impossible. Remaining completely (and I mean completely) noiseless is intrinsically impossible, so in this regard Shadowblade himself is a worse offender than Eltharion.

WS 10 (Shadowblade), compared to?

We call those game mechanics, Ruerl Khan. They are of no significance.

THAT I find silly, it degrades the value of what a swordmaster is, if it took less than a decade, can you then point out, a single reason, why the dark elves would not have such warriors also?

Because Eltharion is not a normal elf. He is exceptional. You ask how he mastered the swordmaster's way so quickly? I would suggest through obsession. We know well that elves have an unfortunate tendency to become obsessed with things (by one account an elf can stare at a painting for weeks on end, presumably only stopping because they starve), and I think that's what probably happened with Eltharion. To use a 40k term, he became an exarch of the swordmasters, if you know what I mean. Focused on it beyond the point of reason. Other elves feel he is lost to them because of this, as he is breaking social boundaries through his great attachment to his hate of Malekith and desire to kill him.

As you say, that is a rather Dark Elf-y thing to do, and I think most other High Elves see it in that light as well. Eltharion is, shall we say, tainted by his encounter with Malekith and is stretching the borders of what it means to be a High Elf.

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:32 am Post subject:

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Several points are wrong, and you are missing them

1: On shadowblade: Shadowblade is *the* most talented assassin in Naggaroth currently, and his hallmark? That he does'nt make any sounds, at all, that means that Eltharion should hear him? Come on, thats far fetched.

2: Eltharion is a: Blind b: Has been so less than a decade c: became a swordmaster in less than a decade.

3: He is able to "hear" Shadowblade in the midst of a battlefield, there are a *LOT* of noises on a battlefield, hearing "the opponents breath" in a duel is all fine and dandy, very high fantasy and very cliché, but in the midst of a battlefield? Just silly.

FVC wrote:
As regards assassins, you're assuming Tyrion couldn't hit a Dark Elf assassin or dodge his blows. I take it you're thinking of the duel with Urian Poisonblade, in which case I'd point out that not only did Tyrion win that duel, Urian was quite possibly the greatest warrior in the whole of Naggaroth, and that most Dark Elf assassins, Shadowblade included, aren't on Urian's level.


WS 10 (Shadowblade), compared to? My point here is that Tyrion gets hit, quite a bit, not that he loses, he also has the advantage towards Eltharion that he's actually well enough protected to survive combating such deadly foes.

My problem is not with the high elves making an invasion, even if it fluff wise gives the dark elves a blow on the only place where they had remained victorious otherwise and lets the high elven ideology of "we always win in the end" come true, my problem is with the entire Eltharion storyline being utterly stupid from the moment on when he is returned alive to that he manages to become a swordmaster with nearly no sweat (and in elven terms, being blinded and learning to fight as a swordmaster in less than a decade, *is* no sweat), and that he then, with this superior training manages to do what most swordmasters could'nt even begin to dream about.

THAT I find silly, it degrades the value of what a swordmaster is, if it took less than a decade, can you then point out, a single reason, why the dark elves would not have such warriors also?

To me the reason the dark elves does'nt have such warriors, is because they lack the inner peace, the swordmasters are warrior monks meditating, seeking wisdom, through their path.

And also possibly because the tradition is unique to Ulthuan, but I would agree that psychology plays a role. The swordmaster blocks out all other influences, obtaining that island of inner peace where they are one with the blade, and all of that jazz.

Eltharion doesn't do that. That's why the other swordmasters worry about him. Belannaer even makes the point specifically, admitting that while Eltharion is a great warrior he has failed to achieve that state of peace. What Eltharion does is substitute that inner peace with his rage and hatred of Malekith.

'Just like a Dark Elf!' you might say, but no, that would be wrong. The swordmaster blocks everything else out to focus only upon the blade, and in that achieve peace. Eltharion blocks out everything except his anger and hate. He does practice extreme mental discipline, just like the other swordmasters. Dark Elves tend to be more wanton than that and have difficulty shutting out their other perceptions, because unlike High Elves, they do not practice the mental discipline required. What Eltharion does is similar to Dark Elf methods, but it marries it with the discipline of the swordmasters.

If one such as he can learn it, so quickly, it pretty much decreases the value of being a swordmaster to just being a combat form, in wich case the dark elves would have the ability to become such warriors in great numbers as well.

Think of Eltharion as being a swordmaster crossed with a Black Guard. Ultimate hate plus ultimate discipline. The Black Guard have the rage and hatred he uses, but don't have the training to shut out all other things. Swordmasters have that discipline, but don't have the sheer driving passion Eltharion has, which is self-destructive but which does enhance his combat ability.

Hence why Eltharion is so dangerous.

[Ruerl Khan]

1: On shadowblade: Shadowblade is *the* most talented assassin in Naggaroth currently, and his hallmark? That he does'nt make any sounds, at all, that means that Eltharion should hear him? Come on, thats far fetched.

He needs to breathe, does he not? Shadowblade must make noises, which are evidently enough for Eltharion to track him.

You can breathe in different rythms, and its pretty much impossible to hear over say, the noise in a battlefield, hence impossible to hear.

3: He is able to "hear" Shadowblade in the midst of a battlefield, there are a *LOT* of noises on a battlefield, hearing "the opponents breath" in a duel is all fine and dandy, very high fantasy and very cliché, but in the midst of a battlefield? Just silly.

It's no sillier than Shadowblade being able to stab a sleeping man twenty times with guards inside the same room, and each guard failing to see or hear anything, or even being wounded.

Let's be fair. Either they're both 'silly', or we agree to grant them some leeway due to it being a fantasy world and all. Can Eltharion focus that well? Possibly so. Tuning out extraneous noises is not something intrinsically impossible. Remaining completely (and I mean completely) noiseless is intrinsically impossible, so in this regard Shadowblade himself is a worse offender than Eltharion.

I am not aware of the history with the sleeping man inside the same room, what history I do know offhandedly written down from official sources is how he tricked the guards away, so that he could murder the noble in peace.

And it *is* impossible to tune out some noises only, you can hold your breath, you can't change how the ear works, even with the leeway granted to fantasy characters its absurd.

WS 10 (Shadowblade), compared to?

We call those game mechanics, Ruerl Khan. They are of no significance.

We call them statistics that are based on a models background abilities, offcourse they have significance FVC, Tyrion would not have WS 9 if it had no significance.

THAT I find silly, it degrades the value of what a swordmaster is, if it took less than a decade, can you then point out, a single reason, why the dark elves would not have such warriors also?

Because Eltharion is not a normal elf. He is exceptional. You ask how he mastered the swordmaster's way so quickly? I would suggest through obsession. We know well that elves have an unfortunate tendency to become obsessed with things (by one account an elf can stare at a painting for weeks on end, presumably only stopping because they starve), and I think that's what probably happened with Eltharion. To use a 40k term, he became an exarch of the swordmasters, if you know what I mean. Focused on it beyond the point of reason. Other elves feel he is lost to them because of this, as he is breaking social boundaries through his great attachment to his hate of Malekith and desire to kill him.

Obsession still does not remove the need for inner peace, focusing through hatred is *exactly* what the dark elves do, they are not wanton, they are in fact damn disciplined, the only place they lose some sense of this, is when they fight high elves.

And even being exceptional, he's still blind, being able to fight as an ordinary warrior of human standards would be *exceptional* since he has to unlearn everything he knew about combat, and base the combat system on something else entiredly, namedly hearing, feeling and smelling, take it from someone who actually studies medieval combat, that he's able to do what he is, is simply put ridicilious.

And also possibly because the tradition is unique to Ulthuan, but I would agree that psychology plays a role. The swordmaster blocks out all other influences, obtaining that island of inner peace where they are one with the blade, and all of that jazz.

Eltharion doesn't do that. That's why the other swordmasters worry about him. Belannaer even makes the point specifically, admitting that while Eltharion is a great warrior he has failed to achieve that state of peace. What Eltharion does is substitute that inner peace with his rage and hatred of Malekith.

He also hates orcs and goblins, and grom in particulair, he's not just hating *one* group, he's very hatefull in general towards anyone who has ever done him harm.

Substituting inner peace with rage and hatred aimed towards a specific foe, is still detrimental towards the training, if you feel more than you think, you lose, its *that* simple in historic combat, in warhammer this might be different yes, but Eltharion is the classic example of someone who should *not* be able to learn the zen-like path of the swordmaster.

'Just like a Dark Elf!' you might say, but no, that would be wrong. The swordmaster blocks everything else out to focus only upon the blade, and in that achieve peace. Eltharion blocks out everything except his anger and hate. He does practice extreme mental discipline, just like the other swordmasters. Dark Elves tend to be more wanton than that and have difficulty shutting out their other perceptions, because unlike High Elves, they do not practice the mental discipline required.

On the contrary, dark elves *are* disciplined, its impossible to get the armies that Naggaroth has withouth disciplin, and blocking out everything except your rage and anger like Eltharion does, well that still puts him *very* far from the swordmasters and *very* close to the dark elves.

Simply put, the following line:

What Eltharion does is similar to Dark Elf methods, but it marries it with the discipline of the swordmasters.

Is nonsens, for simply put: The dark elves *do* have discipline, they lack inner peace yes, but not discipline.

The unique discipline in the swordmasters, is their ability to shut everything else out, to seek the path of wisdom through the blade, that inner peace.
Eltharion does *not* have this inner peace that puts the swordmasters apart from the rest of the warriors, he should *not* be able to become one, and especially not after less than a decade.

And to make him a commander of the swordmasters in addition to the above idiocy... *sigh*

Think of Eltharion as being a swordmaster crossed with a Black Guard. Ultimate hate plus ultimate discipline. The Black Guard have the rage and hatred he uses, but don't have the training to shut out all other things. Swordmasters have that discipline, but don't have the sheer driving passion Eltharion has, which is self-destructive but which does enhance his combat ability.

Hence why Eltharion is so dangerous.

Bull, The black guard *does* have the same discipline, its the inner peace they lack, not training.

Presently you are stating that the self-destructive passion of Eltharion is making him able to keep the discipline of the swordmasters while he lacks the *one* ingredient that sets him aside.

Nonsens, Eltharion is a badly written piece of fiction in the 6th edition, thats about all there is to it.

[FVC]

I am not aware of the history with the sleeping man inside the same room, what history I do know offhandedly written down from official sources is how he tricked the guards away, so that he could murder the noble in peace.

It's in WD279, the same article in which Eltharion fights Shadowblade. Shadowblade stabs a Burgomeister of Marienburg over twenty times, in his bed, while the man's guards are standing in the same room. Completely mad, but there you go.

And it *is* impossible to tune out some noises only, you can hold your breath, you can't change how the ear works, even with the leeway granted to fantasy characters its absurd.

Eltharion is an elf, not a human. His ears don't work that way.

Though I was under the impression that, with proper concentration, a human can focus on specific sounds to the exclusion of others. As elves are, to generalise, better at concentrating on specific things than humans (though they likely take a hit in the holism department), it's not unreasonable that they could do this better than us.

We call them statistics that are based on a models background abilities, offcourse they have significance FVC, Tyrion would not have WS 9 if it had no significance.

Would you therefore claim that Shadowblade is a better swordsman than Tyrion?

No, you would not (or at least should not), for Tyrion is the greatest elven warrior in this age of the world and has no equal in the art of swordsmanship. Therefore the statistics are unreliable for comparative purposes.

Obsession still does not remove the need for inner peace, focusing through hatred is *exactly* what the dark elves do, they are not wanton, they are in fact damn disciplined, the only place they lose some sense of this, is when they fight high elves.

Discipline, yes, but the swordmasters go beyond that. They block out all other environmental stimuli and all other emotions to achieve their perfect level of discipline. For the Dark Elf, the discipline is applied on top of boiling emotion. To use a metaphor, it's as if the Dark Elves' discipline is a bridle on a fierce and bloodthirsty warhorse, while the swordmasters have no bridle but have a calm horse that obeys their every command.

And even being exceptional, he's still blind, being able to fight as an ordinary warrior of human standards would be *exceptional* since he has to unlearn everything he knew about combat, and base the combat system on something else entiredly, namedly hearing, feeling and smelling, take it from someone who actually studies medieval combat, that he's able to do what he is, is simply put ridicilious.

He's not a human, he's an elf. They can do things we can't, remember? It would certainly be exceptional for a human to recover that level of skill after being blinded, but with greater elven focus and sensitivity, he could indeed do things humans cannot.

Also, bear in mind that Shadowblade is much worse than Eltharion in this department. Deathmaster Snikch is another one who does quite insane things. Eltharion may require some suspension of disbelief, but it's not an unusual amount by any means. Other characters are just as bad. Hell, there's a dwarf who came back to life after having died out of his desire for vengeance; compared to that, overcoming a mere physical disability is nothing.

He also hates orcs and goblins, and grom in particulair, he's not just hating *one* group, he's very hatefull in general towards anyone who has ever done him harm.

He's a nasty piece of work, isn't he? I certainly wouldn't want to get on Eltharion's bad side.

On the contrary, dark elves *are* disciplined, its impossible to get the armies that Naggaroth has withouth disciplin, and blocking out everything except your rage and anger like Eltharion does, well that still puts him *very* far from the swordmasters and *very* close to the dark elves.

Dark Elf discipline and swordmaster discipline are two quite different things. With the Dark Elf, it's about channelling and controlling anger, and the naturally wild and passionate ways of elves. With the swordmaster, it's about removing all outside influences from the equation, centring oneself, and acting.

Eltharion has modified the way of the swordmaster, yes, but he retains distinctive swordmaster-esque elements. It's implied that Shadowblade has done the exact same thing, and that's why he's so good.

The unique discipline in the swordmasters, is their ability to shut everything else out, to seek the path of wisdom through the blade, that inner peace.
Eltharion does *not* have this inner peace that puts the swordmasters apart from the rest of the warriors, he should *not* be able to become one, and especially not after less than a decade.

No, he doesn't have inner peace. His path is something of a perversion of what a swordmaster should do. But there's more to the swordmaster than just inner peace. The rituals, the emptying of the mind and the focus dependent upon the removal of outside influences... that's what Eltharion does. The difference is that the swordmaster removes all from themselves and fights in perfect calm. Eltharion is too attached to his hatred and focuses his hate through the lens of that discipline. Dark Elves don't do that because they are not tutored in the way of the swordmaster and are unable to filter out their other emotions and environmental stimuli to the same extent.

Presently you are stating that the self-destructive passion of Eltharion is making him able to keep the discipline of the swordmasters while he lacks the *one* ingredient that sets him aside.

Discipline as Dark Elves, like the Black Guard, practice it and discipline as the swordmasters practice it are different things.

Nonsens, Eltharion is a badly written piece of fiction in the 6th edition, thats about all there is to it.

Nonsense, there's much worse in other characters and Eltharion is not particularly implausible - at least, relative to everything else that happens in Warhammer Fantasy.

[Ruerl Khan]

I am not aware of the history with the sleeping man inside the same room, what history I do know offhandedly written down from official sources is how he tricked the guards away, so that he could murder the noble in peace.

It's in WD279, the same article in which Eltharion fights Shadowblade. Shadowblade stabs a Burgomeister of Marienburg over twenty times, in his bed, while the man's guards are standing in the same room. Completely mad, but there you go.

I'll check that once I get home, presently I am in south Jutland suffering from severe asthma related problems connected to my allergy, and a cat.

And it *is* impossible to tune out some noises only, you can hold your breath, you can't change how the ear works, even with the leeway granted to fantasy characters its absurd.

Eltharion is an elf, not a human. His ears don't work that way.

Though I was under the impression that, with proper concentration, a human can focus on specific sounds to the exclusion of others. As elves are, to generalise, better at concentrating on specific things than humans (though they likely take a hit in the holism department), it's not unreasonable that they could do this better than us.

Even elves can hold their breath -secondly, its not possible to focus on specific sounds unless you are in a calm enviroment and have a calm head and mind, Eltharion where not in a calm enviroment, nor did he ever have a calm mind.

We call them statistics that are based on a models background abilities, offcourse they have significance FVC, Tyrion would not have WS 9 if it had no significance.

Would you therefore claim that Shadowblade is a better swordsman than Tyrion?

No, you would not (or at least should not), for Tyrion is the greatest elven warrior in this age of the world and has no equal in the art of swordsmanship. Therefore the statistics are unreliable for comparative purposes.

Yep, I would actually claim that, why? Because GW stories continually make a point of Tyrion getting *hit*, if he where not so well protected he'd be dead ten times over.

I base my idea on the best warrior not on who has the best sword and the best armour, but who is the best with a blade, but then, I being a student of real combat has a slightly different perception of this than GW it would appear.
*sigh* Munchkins at GW.

On a sidenote, if WS was less a representation, then the black guards and swordmasters would be equeal.

Obsession still does not remove the need for inner peace, focusing through hatred is *exactly* what the dark elves do, they are not wanton, they are in fact damn disciplined, the only place they lose some sense of this, is when they fight high elves.

Discipline, yes, but the swordmasters go beyond that. They block out all other environmental stimuli and all other emotions to achieve their perfect level of discipline. For the Dark Elf, the discipline is applied on top of boiling emotion. To use a metaphor, it's as if the Dark Elves' discipline is a bridle on a fierce and bloodthirsty warhorse, while the swordmasters have no bridle but have a calm horse that obeys their every command.

[/quote]

Swordmasters do go above that yes, that is due to their calm minds, that is what Eltharion lacks.

And please, dark elves are not just beings with boiling emotions, dark elves are actually very controlled and *very* disciplined normally, only against high elves does this change, they actually had a special rule to represent this in 4 & 5th edition forcing them to move forward at times despite the commanders plan.

Its an exception to the rule, not the rule, and as such your metaphor does'nt really fit the situation, and in any case it does'nt really put any difference in between Eltharions flaw and the flaw of the dark elves.

And even being exceptional, he's still blind, being able to fight as an ordinary warrior of human standards would be *exceptional* since he has to unlearn everything he knew about combat, and base the combat system on something else entiredly, namedly hearing, feeling and smelling, take it from someone who actually studies medieval combat, that he's able to do what he is, is simply put ridicilious.

He's not a human, he's an elf. They can do things we can't, remember? It would certainly be exceptional for a human to recover that level of skill after being blinded, but with greater elven focus and sensitivity, he could indeed do things humans cannot.

Getting to WS 4 wich is what a common elf has is what comparativedly would be as exceptional as a human getting to ws 3, after being blinded that is.
To claim that elves are *that* much better simply does'nt fit within the setting, if elves where *that* much better then there would be no battles lost to humans or say, goblins, ever.
Your are meredly speculating here, true a lot of this topic is speculation, but that is taking it to an exstreme I think.

Also, bear in mind that Shadowblade is much worse than Eltharion in this department. Deathmaster Snikch is another one who does quite insane things. Eltharion may require some suspension of disbelief, but it's not an unusual amount by any means. Other characters are just as bad. Hell, there's a dwarf who came back to life after having died out of his desire for vengeance; compared to that, overcoming a mere physical disability is nothing.

One mistake does not correct another, that one dwarf returns with a desire for vengance is however better fuelled by the warhammer background, warhammer *do* have undead who has brought themselves back with that background, Eltharion is the only example of this crazyness.

In short, it does'nt help the Eltharion problem by pointing out that there are other silly things in warhammer, the Eltharion case is still silly, that there are other silly things, does'nt change that.

He also hates orcs and goblins, and grom in particulair, he's not just hating *one* group, he's very hatefull in general towards anyone who has ever done him harm.

He's a nasty piece of work, isn't he? I certainly wouldn't want to get on Eltharion's bad side.

I'd be more afraid of several others, all Eltharion can do is to kill me, wait no, he can't, he's a badly written piece of fiction.

On the contrary, dark elves *are* disciplined, its impossible to get the armies that Naggaroth has withouth disciplin, and blocking out everything except your rage and anger like Eltharion does, well that still puts him *very* far from the swordmasters and *very* close to the dark elves.

Dark Elf discipline and swordmaster discipline are two quite different things. With the Dark Elf, it's about channelling and controlling anger, and the naturally wild and passionate ways of elves. With the swordmaster, it's about removing all outside influences from the equation, centring oneself, and acting.

High elf white lions disciplin and swordmaster discipline is something different as well, you are grasping at straws here trying to define what dark elven discipline is, thats pretty silly.

You should define what discipline is in general, disciplin is to be able to follow and obey orders even during stress, dark elves might do this with a feeling of contempt, channeling spite as you would put it, but in such a case its a method, not discipline in itself.

And to quote you again "with a swordmaster, it's about removing all outside influences from the equation, centering oneself, and acting", Eltharion does not do that, he does what you descripe the dark elves doing, in other words, he does'nt really have the disciplin you praise the swordmasters for.

In other words, it devaluates the worth of the swordmasters to have a being like Eltharion raise to such a rank amongst them, he simply does not fit within the rest of the background material.

Eltharion has modified the way of the swordmaster, yes, but he retains distinctive swordmaster-esque elements. It's implied that Shadowblade has done the exact same thing, and that's why he's so good.

Eltharion is not a swordmaster except by the name, that he got the title is nothing but a bad written piece of fiction from GW and someones odd love for slapstick hollywood kung-fu movies with the blind mand fighting well.

The unique discipline in the swordmasters, is their ability to shut everything else out, to seek the path of wisdom through the blade, that inner peace.
Eltharion does *not* have this inner peace that puts the swordmasters apart from the rest of the warriors, he should *not* be able to become one, and especially not after less than a decade.

No, he doesn't have inner peace. His path is something of a perversion of what a swordmaster should do. But there's more to the swordmaster than just inner peace. The rituals, the emptying of the mind and the focus dependent upon the removal of outside influences... that's what Eltharion does. The difference is that the swordmaster removes all from themselves and fights in perfect calm. Eltharion is too attached to his hatred and focuses his hate through the lens of that discipline. Dark Elves don't do that because they are not tutored in the way of the swordmaster and are unable to filter out their other emotions and environmental stimuli to the same extent.

Of its simply a perversion of what a swordmaster should do, then there is nothing hindering other elven races from learning it, there is nothing hindering the dark elves from learning such techniques otherwise, they come from the same stock after all.

What a high elf can do, can be done by a dark elf in that as well, unless its about peace of mind, this is the place where the high elves have the edge, there is nothing supporting Eltharion as especially disciplined, on the contrary he's described as spitefull and hatefull through and through, what drove him back from the brink of death was not the love for his kin or the desire to protect his own, or his discipline, it was his desire for vengance.

Hatefull and spitefull, i'd say that Eltharion is just as bad as dealing with it as any dark elf, possibly even worse.

Presently you are stating that the self-destructive passion of Eltharion is making him able to keep the discipline of the swordmasters while he lacks the *one* ingredient that sets him aside.

Discipline as Dark Elves, like the Black Guard, practice it and discipline as the swordmasters practice it are different things.

It is in the inner calm, but that is about it, discipline as the swordmasters have it, and discipline as Eltharion has it, is simply not comparable.

Nonsens, Eltharion is a badly written piece of fiction in the 6th edition, thats about all there is to it.

Nonsense, there's much worse in other characters and Eltharion is not particularly implausible - at least, relative to everything else that happens in Warhammer Fantasy.

[/quote]

One idiocy does not justify another, Eltharion is still a piece of badly written fiction in the 6th edition, and in such a degree it stands out, even in a world of high magic and gigantic flying lizards.

And keep in mind, not everything is relative, no matter how many times Einstein is badly misquoted.

[Spider_wells]

I agree with Ruerl about the Swordmaster's having that edge over the Darl Elves, their inner calm, wisdom and control is what gives them their astounding abilites. To achieve such a level of skill is only possible through the inner understanding of a way of battle.

The Swordmasters have it through calm, discipline, balance. The wardancers have it through a complete knowledge of the pace and tempo of battle, it's crescendo's and subtle nuances.

Dark Elves simply seem to find it very difficult to reach this level of understanding, simply because they have so many conflicting emotions that they are unable to reach such an understanding.

The fact that Eltharion became a Swordmaster is foolish, not because he was blind, but because, as Ruerl said, he is unable to find that peace, and therefore degrades the concpet of the Swordmaster, making him a simple warrior rather than a master of martial skill and control, as wise as he is deadly.

Also, Tyrion is not supposed to be the best blademaster, but rather the greatest soldier. He uses his equipment and weapons to aid him as much as his natural abilities. Tyrion is the greatest soldier in the wolrd because he has the best kit, and also amazing skills.

[FVC]

Even elves can hold their breath -secondly, its not possible to focus on specific sounds unless you are in a calm enviroment and have a calm head and mind, Eltharion where not in a calm enviroment, nor did he ever have a calm mind.

Justify the claim that it's not possible to focus on specific sounds. You've made the generalisation, but you haven't offered any proof that it applies to humans, much less elves, who are an entirely different race with a different physiology.

You don't know enough about elf biology to claim with certainty that they cannot do it. There's at least one piece of evidence, in the form of Eltharion, that they can. I think you need to put together a better case than a bald statement that they can't. It's entirely possible that they could. Eltharion provides an example of an elf actually doing it, not to mention that there are suggestions that any swordmaster can do it. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it's impossible.

Yep, I would actually claim that, why? Because GW stories continually make a point of Tyrion getting *hit*, if he where not so well protected he'd be dead ten times over.

I don't believe they do make such a point. The only event that springs to mind is mentions of Urian's blade being blocked by Tyrion's armour, which is hardly evidence that Tyrion constantly get hits in combat, especially considering the ease with which Urian dispatched two other heavily armoured elves.

On a sidenote, if WS was less a representation, then the black guards and swordmasters would be equeal.

That doesn't follow. In game mechanics, swordmasters have a higher WS than Black Guard. However, WS is irrelevant. There's nothing there that would allow you to generalise that swordmasters and Black Guard are equally skilled - but also nothing there that would let you generalise that one is superior to the other.

You would have to turn to background to make some sort of judgement. In this particular case background favours the swordmasters, as their prowess with the blade is repeatedly emphasised whereas the Black Guard's skill isn't.

And please, dark elves are not just beings with boiling emotions, dark elves are actually very controlled and *very* disciplined normally, only against high elves does this change, they actually had a special rule to represent this in 4 & 5th edition forcing them to move forward at times despite the commanders plan.

As I said, there are different types of discipline. Many Dark Elf soldiers might be exceptionally disciplined, in the sense that they're able to swiftly understand and obey orders and such, but they do not have inner discipline in the sense that swordmasters do. The word has multiple meanings, Ruerl Khan.

Getting to WS 4 wich is what a common elf has is what comparativedly would be as exceptional as a human getting to ws 3, after being blinded that is.

Unsupported generalisation, and an appeal to game mechanics aside.

To claim that elves are *that* much better simply does'nt fit within the setting, if elves where *that* much better then there would be no battles lost to humans or say, goblins, ever.

There is more than one measure to skill. My point was that, in view of different elven physical abilities (specifically greater mental focus and sharper senses), it is possible that an elf could compensate for the loss of one specific sense better than a human could.

That says nothing about elven martial skill relative to that of humans in general, save perhaps that some of those different elven physical abilities might give them an advantage - and indeed we know that such different abilities give elves advantages in some areas, such as archery or fine duelling, while from the biological perspective humans hold advantages in other areas, such as raw strength and endurance. The argument is simply that an elf's unique physical abilities make it easier for him to compensate for a lost sense, in this example, blindness.

One mistake does not correct another, that one dwarf returns with a desire for vengance is however better fuelled by the warhammer background, warhammer *do* have undead who has brought themselves back with that background, Eltharion is the only example of this crazyness.

The only example? Assuredly not. It is said that other swordmasters can fight blind. A dwarf returning from death itself through force of will is rather more impressive than an elf compensating for a physical disability through force of will. Yes, undead do exist, but that dwarf in particular doesn't appear to be undead (in the way that vampires, Tomb Kings, the Green Knight, etc., are), especially because he returned from death before the rise of Nagash, and so predates the very existence of the undead.

In short, it does'nt help the Eltharion problem by pointing out that there are other silly things in warhammer, the Eltharion case is still silly, that there are other silly things, does'nt change that.

So tell me, why do you not single out the White Dwarf, Shadowblade, Deathmaster Snikch, or any of a hundred other physically implausible characters?

I'd be more afraid of several others, all Eltharion can do is to kill me, wait no, he can't, he's a badly written piece of fiction.

Your subjective judgements as to how well written Eltharion is are irrelevant to the plausibility (or at least the tolerability) of his feats. Present an argument, please.

You should define what discipline is in general, disciplin is to be able to follow and obey orders even during stress, dark elves might do this with a feeling of contempt, channeling spite as you would put it, but in such a case its a method, not discipline in itself.

According to that definition of discipline, indeed many Dark Elf soldiers, swordmasters, and Eltharion are extremely disciplined.

But as regards the discipline the swordmasters have and Dark Elf soldiers lack, we are talking about inner discipline. Perhaps it would help if I used a different word? Tranquility, perhaps?

And to quote you again "with a swordmaster, it's about removing all outside influences from the equation, centering oneself, and acting", Eltharion does not do that, he does what you descripe the dark elves doing, in other words, he does'nt really have the disciplin you praise the swordmasters for.

That is swordmaster discipline, yes. Eltharion's talent is that he is able to focus his mind to the same degree, removing all outside influences from his mind, and acting upon his rage and hate.

The Dark Elf soldier, say the Black Guard, relies upon their hate to an incredible degree, but is incapable of removing all outside influences of their mind and achieving the same focus. To do that, they would need the training and extensive mental conditioning of the swordmasters. Characters like Eltharion and Shadowblade have that mental focus, even if they twist and pervert the way of the swordmaster, which is what allows them to be as successful as they are.

Eltharion is not a swordmaster except by the name, that he got the title is nothing but a bad written piece of fiction from GW and someones odd love for slapstick hollywood kung-fu movies with the blind mand fighting well.

Subjective generalisation; not an argument.

Of its simply a perversion of what a swordmaster should do, then there is nothing hindering other elven races from learning it, there is nothing hindering the dark elves from learning such techniques otherwise, they come from the same stock after all.

There is nothing inherently stopping them, that much is true, save societal factors. Dark Elf warrior philosophy, stemming from Nagarythi warrior traditions and expounded by Malekith, is one that praises a wild, unbound spirit and powerful emotion. Aenarion taking up the Sword of Khaine is an act that a Dark Elf master would view as highly meritorious and proof of Aenarion's greatness, while among High Elves such an act is almost inconceivable and so Aenarion is an ambivalent figure to them.

To put it bluntly, there are no swordmaster-like academies in Naggaroth because that way of fighting (and the mental discipline it entails) is at odds with mainstream Dark Elf thought. They don't have such schools for the same reason that there are no Black Guard-like schools in Ulthuan teaching young High Elf warriors to harness their hate in combat. It's cultural.

Thus Eltharion and Shadowblade are so deadly, because they are the only members of their subrace to have learnt the way of fighting of the other.

It is in the inner calm, but that is about it, discipline as the swordmasters have it, and discipline as Eltharion has it, is simply not comparable.

It is focus, Ruerl Khan. It is the ability to block out other emotions and external events. The swordmasters teach it, the Black Guard don't, Eltharion and Shadowblade have fusion styles. Simple as that.

One idiocy does not justify another, Eltharion is still a piece of badly written fiction in the 6th edition, and in such a degree it stands out, even in a world of high magic and gigantic flying lizards.

Subjective opinion, not an argument.

And keep in mind, not everything is relative, no matter how many times Einstein is badly misquoted.

In a philosophical sense I'd agree with you, being a moral absolutist myself, but that's hardly relevant to my arguments and what I think is a quite unconvincing defense.

[Ruerl Khan]

Even elves can hold their breath -secondly, its not possible to focus on specific sounds unless you are in a calm enviroment and have a calm head and mind, Eltharion where not in a calm enviroment, nor did he ever have a calm mind.

Justify the claim that it's not possible to focus on specific sounds. You've made the generalisation, but you haven't offered any proof that it applies to humans, much less elves, who are an entirely different race with a different physiology.

Its generally impossible to hear a tiny sound when its drowned in other sounds that are much louder.

Listening in to "one specific sound" is nothing but an urban myth that cannot be done except in controlled circumstances.

I'm not a physist, so I can't argue from the points of what decibel drowns out other lower decibel, but I can state the impossibility of it, if you are at a concert you won't be able to hear the whisper of a person three metres away, thats the comparison.

You don't know enough about elf biology to claim with certainty that they cannot do it. There's at least one piece of evidence, in the form of Eltharion, that they can. I think you need to put together a better case than a bald statement that they can't. It's entirely possible that they could. Eltharion provides an example of an elf actually doing it, not to mention that there are suggestions that any swordmaster can do it. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it's impossible.

You do not have proof that they can, FVC, there is furthermore at least one proof that Shadowblade is soundless, furthermore, there is nothing stating that he cannot hold is breath and as such avoid detection by your suggested method.

Yep, I would actually claim that, why? Because GW stories continually make a point of Tyrion getting *hit*, if he where not so well protected he'd be dead ten times over.

I don't believe they do make such a point. The only event that springs to mind is mentions of Urian's blade being blocked by Tyrion's armour, which is hardly evidence that Tyrion constantly get hits in combat, especially considering the ease with which Urian dispatched two other heavily armoured elves.

Battle at the blighted isle, he's hit, badly, by a dark elf assassin, but not wounded due to his armour, battle where he protects the Everqueen, he's wounded, badly, before he manages to defeat the assassins.

On a sidenote, if WS was less a representation, then the black guards and swordmasters would be equeal.

That doesn't follow. In game mechanics, swordmasters have a higher WS than Black Guard. However, WS is irrelevant. There's nothing there that would allow you to generalise that swordmasters and Black Guard are equally skilled - but also nothing there that would let you generalise that one is superior to the other.

You would have to turn to background to make some sort of judgement. In this particular case background favours the swordmasters, as their prowess with the blade is repeatedly emphasised whereas the Black Guard's skill isn't.

There is something allowing me to make the generalisation, and that is that the weapon skill reflects the background material, it is not seperate from it, therefore it does have an importance.

Its pretty simple, the stat "weapon skill" is connected to the background of the model it represents, therefore it has relevance.

And please, dark elves are not just beings with boiling emotions, dark elves are actually very controlled and *very* disciplined normally, only against high elves does this change, they actually had a special rule to represent this in 4 & 5th edition forcing them to move forward at times despite the commanders plan.

As I said, there are different types of discipline. Many Dark Elf soldiers might be exceptionally disciplined, in the sense that they're able to swiftly understand and obey orders and such, but they do not have inner discipline in the sense that swordmasters do. The word has multiple meanings, Ruerl Khan.

All discipline comes from inner self control FVC, its simple really, and you have no right to mention the words multible meanings in a sentence, pick wichever fits you the best, and then pretend to teach me about simple semantics, FVC.
I hope I do make a point here, FVC, or should I continue to be impolite in the same manner of speaking here as you have introduced it, FVC?

Getting to WS 4 wich is what a common elf has is what comparativedly would be as exceptional as a human getting to ws 3, after being blinded that is.

Unsupported generalisation, and an appeal to game mechanics aside.

Generalisation based on a core mechanic in the game system thats relevant for the discussion.

To claim that elves are *that* much better simply does'nt fit within the setting, if elves where *that* much better then there would be no battles lost to humans or say, goblins, ever.

There is more than one measure to skill. My point was that, in view of different elven physical abilities (specifically greater mental focus and sharper senses), it is possible that an elf could compensate for the loss of one specific sense better than a human could.

We have no way of knowing how much, or even if, the elven senses are all sharper than humans, we know they have a keener sense of sight and hearing, thats about it.

And even if they where, its fully plausible to believe that elves would be more dependant on their sensory perceptions than humans, not less, and as such suffer just as much, if not more, than humans.

Its all down to speculation and nothing can be proven on this point.

That says nothing about elven martial skill relative to that of humans in general, save perhaps that some of those different elven physical abilities might give them an advantage - and indeed we know that such different abilities give elves advantages in some areas, such as archery or fine duelling, while from the biological perspective humans hold advantages in other areas, such as raw strength and endurance. The argument is simply that an elf's unique physical abilities make it easier for him to compensate for a lost sense, in this example, blindness.

Or sharpened senses could make him more dependant on his senses, not less, due to a habbit on relying on them, and due to losing so much more by losing one of their senses.

One mistake does not correct another, that one dwarf returns with a desire for vengance is however better fuelled by the warhammer background, warhammer *do* have undead who has brought themselves back with that background, Eltharion is the only example of this crazyness.

The only example? Assuredly not. It is said that other swordmasters can fight blind. A dwarf returning from death itself through force of will is rather more impressive than an elf compensating for a physical disability through force of will. Yes, undead do exist, but that dwarf in particular doesn't appear to be undead (in the way that vampires, Tomb Kings, the Green Knight, etc., are), especially because he returned from death before the rise of Nagash, and so predates the very existence of the undead.

Does not change the fact that one mistake does'nt correct another, a silly history on a dwarf, does not justify Eltharions background.

In short, it does'nt help the Eltharion problem by pointing out that there are other silly things in warhammer, the Eltharion case is still silly, that there are other silly things, does'nt change that.

So tell me, why do you not single out the White Dwarf, Shadowblade, Deathmaster Snikch, or any of a hundred other physically implausible characters?

Because the topic of this discussion is "the seventh edition book" with relevance to the differences between the editions, in other words, the focus is on the discrepansies in the high elven editions.

And for the record, I still find say, Shadowblade more plausible that Eltharion.

I'd be more afraid of several others, all Eltharion can do is to kill me, wait no, he can't, he's a badly written piece of fiction.

Your subjective judgements as to how well written Eltharion is are irrelevant to the plausibility (or at least the tolerability) of his feats. Present an argument, please.

Please do not make such statements after making similarily irrelevant to the discussion statements.

You should define what discipline is in general, disciplin is to be able to follow and obey orders even during stress, dark elves might do this with a feeling of contempt, channeling spite as you would put it, but in such a case its a method, not discipline in itself.

According to that definition of discipline, indeed many Dark Elf soldiers, swordmasters, and Eltharion are extremely disciplined.

But as regards the discipline the swordmasters have and Dark Elf soldiers lack, we are talking about inner discipline. Perhaps it would help if I used a different word? Tranquility, perhaps?

It would, especially since we do not seem to agree on the correct definition of the version of discipline used in general by Eltharion and the swordmasters, in either case, the swordmasters do have this tranquility as you put it, Eltharion does not.

And to quote you again "with a swordmaster, it's about removing all outside influences from the equation, centering oneself, and acting", Eltharion does not do that, he does what you descripe the dark elves doing, in other words, he does'nt really have the disciplin you praise the swordmasters for.

That is swordmaster discipline, yes. Eltharion's talent is that he is able to focus his mind to the same degree, removing all outside influences from his mind, and acting upon his rage and hate.

If you are focusing on your rage and hatred, then you are focusing on something else, rage and hatred are both emotions targetted at objects, and has a reason behind it, thus if you use your rage/hatred as a focusing object, you also focus on the object of your rage/hatred and the reasons for gaining your rage/hatred, in short, rage/hatred cannot be considered a form of removing all outside influences since it per, definition, includes outside influence.

The Dark Elf soldier, say the Black Guard, relies upon their hate to an incredible degree, but is incapable of removing all outside influences of their mind and achieving the same focus. To do that, they would need the training and extensive mental conditioning of the swordmasters. Characters like Eltharion and Shadowblade have that mental focus, even if they twist and pervert the way of the swordmaster, which is what allows them to be as successful as they are.

Please show me where you have this new and very interesting background that dark elves use hatred to remove outside influences

Or in other words: You are arguing withouth background stating a belief rather than something we can know, its a pretty empty part of the GW fluff, we must petition them to get dark elf meditation methods into the 7th edition book?

Eltharion is not a swordmaster except by the name, that he got the title is nothing but a bad written piece of fiction from GW and someones odd love for slapstick hollywood kung-fu movies with the blind mand fighting well.

Subjective generalisation; not an argument.

This entire thread is a subjective opinion, but it is founded on arguments, I have argued for my opinion, thus this *is* an argument, you may disagree with my argument as much as you like, but it is still an argument.

Of its simply a perversion of what a swordmaster should do, then there is nothing hindering other elven races from learning it, there is nothing hindering the dark elves from learning such techniques otherwise, they come from the same stock after all.

There is nothing inherently stopping them, that much is true, save societal factors. Dark Elf warrior philosophy, stemming from Nagarythi warrior traditions and expounded by Malekith, is one that praises a wild, unbound spirit and powerful emotion. Aenarion taking up the Sword of Khaine is an act that a Dark Elf master would view as highly meritorious and proof of Aenarion's greatness, while among High Elves such an act is almost inconceivable and so Aenarion is an ambivalent figure to them.

I would call their hatred as a social factor as well, I am not sure if I agree with your follow argumentation however:

To put it bluntly, there are no swordmaster-like academies in Naggaroth because that way of fighting (and the mental discipline it entails) is at odds with mainstream Dark Elf thought. They don't have such schools for the same reason that there are no Black Guard-like schools in Ulthuan teaching young High Elf warriors to harness their hate in combat. It's cultural.

There are places in Naggaroth that do have schools training elves to an insane degree going far beyoind what is normally possible, namedly the training of the assassins, beyoind that I am somewhat forced to agree with you, even though I do believe that there are potential for such academies, and that the black guard might be one such example.

Thus Eltharion and Shadowblade are so deadly, because they are the only members of their subrace to have learnt the way of fighting of the other.

I'd say that Shadowblade was deadly before he learned anything from the swordmaster arts, I personally find it belittle his own skill that its put forward as an argument, but that it in retrospect praises him for an unnusual open mind.

Then again, the difference between ws 9 an ws 10 is huge, at least in story terms, or thats my impression at least.

It is in the inner calm, but that is about it, discipline as the swordmasters have it, and discipline as Eltharion has it, is simply not comparable.

It is focus, Ruerl Khan. It is the ability to block out other emotions and external events. The swordmasters teach it, the Black Guard don't, Eltharion and Shadowblade have fusion styles. Simple as that.

No, its not simple as that, for one Eltharion is according to the 6th edition fluff a swordmaster, while Shadowblade has learnth swordmaster techniques, this means that Eltharion mainly is this, while Shadowblade has some elements in it, it does'nt make either of them a fusion of styles, nor does it mean that Eltharion is'nt fitting badly within the concept of a swordmaster, simply because you cannot exclude other emotions through an emotion relying on outside objects.

One idiocy does not justify another, Eltharion is still a piece of badly written fiction in the 6th edition, and in such a degree it stands out, even in a world of high magic and gigantic flying lizards.

Subjective opinion, not an argument.

Subjective opinion, based on background and argued for, thus an argument, furthermore its my conclusion that Eltharions fluff for the 6th edition is exceptionally poorly written, not just my argument, thus it rests on a argued form.

Wich I have given, otherwise there would be no discussion here, you may disagree with my points and my conclusion, but to disagree with that I have argued it, is rude and showing poor understanding of the arguments I have presented.

And keep in mind, not everything is relative, no matter how many times Einstein is badly misquoted.

In a philosophical sense I'd agree with you, being a moral absolutist myself, but that's hardly relevant to my arguments and what I think is a quite unconvincing defense.

Offcourse its relevant when you bring in other examples of poorly written fiction, it is to show that your attack, using these points, have nothing to do with the subject discussed.

Or in short, not all of your points have a relation to the discussion we are having unless you are forcing it onto them.

Regards

Ruerl Khan

p.s.
My apologies if I have sounded too harsh in this post at times, but the constant "argument (-don't you see-) Ruerl Khan" form irks me, to me it is how adults speak to stubborn children who cannot see the obvious, not how two hobbyists should speak to each other when discussing something obscure in the background material.

[Caradreth]

Battle at the blighted isle, he's hit, badly, by a dark elf assassin, but not wounded due to his armour, battle where he protects the Everqueen, he's wounded, badly, before he manages to defeat the assassins.

I'm just going to seize on this point, and point out that when Tyrion is defending the Everqueen, he's half dead from witch-elf poison in the first place. Hardly a fair example.

[Andrew the Eternal]

Battle at the blighted isle, he's hit, badly, by a dark elf assassin, but not wounded due to his armour, battle where he protects the Everqueen, he's wounded, badly, before he manages to defeat the assassins.

I'm just going to seize on this point, and point out that when Tyrion is defending the Everqueen, he's half dead from witch-elf poison in the first place. Hardly a fair example.

Which means he got hit. By a Witch Elf. And got wounded badly.

The example is fair enough.

[Ruerl Khan]

Andrew the Eternal caught my point exactly

-Anyway, its a sidepoint, I just disagree with GW's interpretation of a good warrior, I think these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y

Are brilliant, GW likes people fighting like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R28edh4c ... re=related

Its pretty, granted, but inefficient and utterly unrealistic if you wish to survive in a battle

[Caradreth]

Battle at the blighted isle, he's hit, badly, by a dark elf assassin, but not wounded due to his armour, battle where he protects the Everqueen, he's wounded, badly, before he manages to defeat the assassins.

I'm just going to seize on this point, and point out that when Tyrion is defending the Everqueen, he's half dead from witch-elf poison in the first place. Hardly a fair example.

Which means he got hit. By a Witch Elf. And got wounded badly.

The example is fair enough.

He wasn't wounded 'badly' per se. It was the poison, rather than the wound, that caused the trouble, IIRC.

[FVC]

I could make another point-by-point response... but no. I've made my position clear enough and my argument does not require further clarification. To take a leaf from Eldacar's book, if you can't understand my argument (and the distinction between discipline and focus), then that's your problem, not mine, and I have better things to do than repeat myself again.

The argument is clear and simple. It stands on its own and I believe your response fails to address the salient points. Until next time, then.

[lathian]

I could make another point-by-point response... but no. I've made my position clear enough and my argument does not require further clarification. To take a leaf from Eldacar's book, if you can't understand my argument (and the distinction between discipline and focus), then that's your problem, not mine, and I have better things to do than repeat myself again.

The argument is clear and simple. It stands on its own and I believe your response fails to address the salient points. Until next time, then.

This is called losing.

[FVC]

Classy, lathian, classy.

Could it be that I think my points are already clear enough? Could it be that I think it would be a waste of time to deal with Ruerl Khan's last attempt at a rebuttal on the grounds that my case is already clear and he evidently doesn't understand it?

I was not lying. I could quite easily respond point-by-point. I certainly think I'm still right. However, I have merely made the decision to bow out now because my argument is already laid out (and I would suggest self-evidently logical and correct) and I don't feel like spending several more hours battering it into the skulls of my adversaries, if you'll pardon the expression.

If you have anything better to say that snappy one-liners that miss the point entirely, I suggest you do so. I'm sure we'd all enjoy seeing someone raise a point worthy of discussion.

...

And yes, I realise this post is somewhat offensive. I am not very tolerant of stupidity, and while I think Ruerl Khan's argument is a poor one, at least he had the grace to make it clearly. lathian's post was unproductive and annoying, and I do not like it when people try to provoke me. Tell you the truth, I was half-tempted to sit down and do a point-by-point response to that post of Ruerl Khan's just to show him, but that would be lowering myself to lathian's level, and while I make no particular attempts to be pleasant, I do hold myself higher than that. You may think that's hypocritical of me. Maybe it is. I'm just frustrated. I think I've made a crystal clear and watertight case, yet another rebuttal is made which, just like the previous ones, consistently fails to grasp my main points, I mention this and move to retire from the discussion, and suddenly a downright stupid and inflammatory comment like lathian's is thrown in my face. I shall be frank - I'm angry.

*deep breaths*

All right. Let it not be said I'm a monster, troll, or flamer. I can control my emotions. Perhaps I need further tutoring in the way of the swordmaster! Let us treat each other civilly, lathian.

Allow me to summarise and lay out my case. If you think there are any particular problems, feel free to seize upon them. The same for you, Ruerl Khan.

Blind Eltharion
- Ruerl Khan has suggested that it's unrealistic for Eltharion to learn to compensate for his blindness so quickly.
- My response contains two main points.
- Firstly, Eltharion is an elf and they have different physical capabilities to those of humans. Particularly noteworthy is their acute sensory perception and ability to focus on particular sensations. It is plausible to suggest that this would allow them to compensate for a physical disability in a way humans could not.
- Secondly, while the development of a blind sense is fantastic and unrealistic, fantastic and unrealistic things are common in Warhammer Fantasy and we come to accept them with the setting. Eltharion's abilities are not incongruous with that setting.
- Thirdly, though I failed to mention this earlier, Eltharion is, as are all swordmasters, tutored in minor spells and magical abilities at the White Tower, which offer another possible justification for his ability to compensate for his blindness.

The way of the swordmaster and of the Black Guard
- Both swordmasters and Black Guard are extremely proficient fighters, representative of the best of the martial traditions of the High Elves and Dark Elves.
- The Black Guard's strength comes from the strength of his hatred. He opens himself to the totality of his emotion and accepts all sensory input. From this he moves, driven by strong, uncontrolled emotion, to strike. He surrenders himself to the strength of that emotion and is lost in it, allowing him to move and fight with the raw ferocity of his hatred.
- The swordmaster's strength comes from his ability to remove himself from emotion and from the information streaming in from the senses and centring himself in a place of no mind. With the mental control he has learnt he focuses entirely on the blade, achieving a state of hyper-sensitivity to the world around him, allowing him to strike with almost supernatural precision.
- To generalise, then, the Black Guard's weapon is intense emotion, while the swordmaster's is intense focus.
- A person capable of melding these approaches is capable of greater feats than the average swordmaster or Black Guard. Such a person is able to feel and be driven by the power of the Black Guard's hatred while in the swordmaster's state of no mind, with that hyper-awareness.
- Both Eltharion and Shadowblade are such people, which is why they are so deadly.

There we are. I hope this is more clear. If you have objections, please, make them clearly and concisely and I will do my best to counter them and further clarify my position - hopefully with the peace and wisdom of a swordmaster and not the rage of a Black Guard!

[Ruerl Khan]

Classy, lathian, classy.

Could it be that I think my points are already clear enough? Could it be that I think it would be a waste of time to deal with Ruerl Khan's last attempt at a rebuttal on the grounds that my case is already clear and he evidently doesn't understand it?

I was not lying. I could quite easily respond point-by-point. I certainly think I'm still right. However, I have merely made the decision to bow out now because my argument is already laid out (and I would suggest self-evidently logical and correct) and I don't feel like spending several more hours battering it into the skulls of my adversaries, if you'll pardon the expression.

If you have anything better to say that snappy one-liners that miss the point entirely, I suggest you do so. I'm sure we'd all enjoy seeing someone raise a point worthy of discussion.

...

And yes, I realise this post is somewhat offensive. I am not very tolerant of stupidity, and while I think Ruerl Khan's argument is a poor one, at least he had the grace to make it clearly. lathian's post was unproductive and annoying, and I do not like it when people try to provoke me. Tell you the truth, I was half-tempted to sit down and do a point-by-point response to that post of Ruerl Khan's just to show him, but that would be lowering myself to lathian's level, and while I make no particular attempts to be pleasant, I do hold myself higher than that. You may think that's hypocritical of me. Maybe it is. I'm just frustrated. I think I've made a crystal clear and watertight case, yet another rebuttal is made which, just like the previous ones, consistently fails to grasp my main points, I mention this and move to retire from the discussion, and suddenly a downright stupid and inflammatory comment like lathian's is thrown in my face. I shall be frank - I'm angry.

*deep breaths*

All right. Let it not be said I'm a monster, troll, or flamer. I can control my emotions. Perhaps I need further tutoring in the way of the swordmaster! Let us treat each other civilly, lathian.

I would kindly point out that your argumentaion in your previous inputs has been just as rude, if not more than lathians, please keep this in mind next time you end up in a situation like this.
Sometimes you will meet people that do not agree with your points, crystal clear though you may think them, this does not mean that they are stupid, this do however mean that they have a different perception of it than you.

A perception that you may not share, or in some rare cases, even understand, if so you will be unlikedly to understand the counter argumentation, add in barriers such as language, english is not everyones first language after all.

So next time, please avoid treating someone like they are stupid, and post a comment like the one above or the one I just quoted, for it will provoke answers that will make you angry.

You are offcourse free to think me stupid, your choice, but that does not mean that you are free to act condescending and actually say it, I have pointed that out before, I am now pointing it out again.

*sighs* some times I wish internet foras argued like scholastism, then we'd at least have the same debate.

Allow me to summarise and lay out my case. If you think there are any particular problems, feel free to seize upon them. The same for you, Ruerl Khan.

Blind Eltharion
- Ruerl Khan has suggested that it's unrealistic for Eltharion to learn to compensate for his blindness so quickly.
- My response contains two main points.
- Firstly, Eltharion is an elf and they have different physical capabilities to those of humans. Particularly noteworthy is their acute sensory perception and ability to focus on particular sensations. It is plausible to suggest that this would allow them to compensate for a physical disability in a way humans could not.
- Secondly, while the development of a blind sense is fantastic and unrealistic, fantastic and unrealistic things are common in Warhammer Fantasy and we come to accept them with the setting. Eltharion's abilities are not incongruous with that setting.
- Thirdly, though I failed to mention this earlier, Eltharion is, as are all swordmasters, tutored in minor spells and magical abilities at the White Tower, which offer another possible justification for his ability to compensate for his blindness.

I understand your points perfectly, I do however disagree with them, this is based on a: a different belief on what the loss of perception would mean, I mean it would harm someone with strong perceptions even more to lose one of them, not instantly make him a better swordsman than he was before.

Your second point I cannot dispute, for it is correct insofar as the warhammer setting goes, my personal opinion on this, and I am sorry if this was not clear, is that it is a badly written piece of fiction.
-And that is what this debate is all about, personal opinion, and we are offcourse free to argue for our personal opinion, otherwise there would be no sense in you arguing with the example of commodore Perry on that other thread, would there?

The third point is accepted and noted, and furthermore supported by the fact that Eltharion for a long time have been manipulating the winds of magic through an item even before losing his sight.
And its further sustained in the 4th edition supplement "battle magic" wich clearly gives an impression that those capeable of manipulating the winds of magic has a second sort of "sight" though its not one to be used lightly.

The way of the swordmaster and of the Black Guard
- Both swordmasters and Black Guard are extremely proficient fighters, representative of the best of the martial traditions of the High Elves and Dark Elves.
- The Black Guard's strength comes from the strength of his hatred. He opens himself to the totality of his emotion and accepts all sensory input. From this he moves, driven by strong, uncontrolled emotion, to strike. He surrenders himself to the strength of that emotion and is lost in it, allowing him to move and fight with the raw ferocity of his hatred.
- The swordmaster's strength comes from his ability to remove himself from emotion and from the information streaming in from the senses and centring himself in a place of no mind. With the mental control he has learnt he focuses entirely on the blade, achieving a state of hyper-sensitivity to the world around him, allowing him to strike with almost supernatural precision.
- To generalise, then, the Black Guard's weapon is intense emotion, while the swordmaster's is intense focus.
- A person capable of melding these approaches is capable of greater feats than the average swordmaster or Black Guard. Such a person is able to feel and be driven by the power of the Black Guard's hatred while in the swordmaster's state of no mind, with that hyper-awareness.
- Both Eltharion and Shadowblade are such people, which is why they are so deadly.

I disagree with your point that the black guards weapon is intense emotions, but I do agree that it is *a* weapon to them, I personally find this somewhat silly.

-I fully agree on the swordmasters, except that I would say that the swordmasters are fully rested in themselves, not their blades, since they are learned in more than just swordfighting.
The second part of our argument, wether Eltharion could be a swordmaster or not, originates from personal opinion, it is my personal opinion, and one I have argued for, that Eltharion should not be a swordmaster.
It is another reason I consider the 6th edition storyline about Eltharion to be badly written.

Please note that I in my previous post, also stated that this was personal opinions, that most of this thread in fact is personal opinion.

There we are. I hope this is more clear. If you have objections, please, make them clearly and concisely and I will do my best to counter them and further clarify my position - hopefully with the peace and wisdom of a swordmaster and not the rage of a Black Guard!

And I hope I have cleared something up as well, and please, next time do not treat me that condescendingly, I, suprisingly for some perhaps, not stupid.

Ruerl - who now goes back to his paper on Plato's idea of virtue (Araté) and the human possibility on achieving it.

[FVC]

I would kindly point out that your argumentaion in your previous inputs has been just as rude, if not more than lathians, please keep this in mind next time you end up in a situation like this.

I lost my cool just then, and I apologise. Nonetheless, it does seem to me that lathian's comment was ruder than my comments prior to the post where I exploded. I still think his comment was uncalled for and offensive. Still, maybe he's better than that. He could post again. Got to have faith in humanity, I suppose.

*sighs* some times I wish internet foras argued like scholastism, then we'd at least have the same debate.

I tend to think of forums like this as an opportunity to let your hair down a bit and argue more casually. This isn't a scholarly debate.

I do however disagree with them, this is based on a: a different belief on what the loss of perception would mean, I mean it would harm someone with strong perceptions even more to lose one of them, not instantly make him a better swordsman than he was before.

No one said it was instant. Eltharion did, after all, have more than a decade to get over it.

To be fair, it's also possible that an elf losing a sense would suffer more than a human, and both our views are plausible. However, I would think that the very existence of Eltharion as an example lends credence to my view. The question isn't 'what would happen to an elf who went blind', but 'Eltharion is an elf who went blind; how can we explain him?'.

Your second point I cannot dispute, for it is correct insofar as the warhammer setting goes, my personal opinion on this, and I am sorry if this was not clear, is that it is a badly written piece of fiction.

You have the right to your own opinion, of course. I merely maintain that Eltharion's feats aren't inconsistent or implausible for the setting.

The third point is accepted and noted, and furthermore supported by the fact that Eltharion for a long time have been manipulating the winds of magic through an item even before losing his sight.
And its further sustained in the 4th edition supplement "battle magic" wich clearly gives an impression that those capeable of manipulating the winds of magic has a second sort of "sight" though its not one to be used lightly.

The witch-sight, yes. Shall we take that as the explanation, then?

I disagree with your point that the black guards weapon is intense emotions, but I do agree that it is *a* weapon to them, I personally find this somewhat silly.

Perhaps I'm thinking too highly of their 'Eternal Hatred' rule, but it seems to me that they do derive a great deal of strength from their ability to be driven by such strong emotion.

Also, maybe I'm thinking too much of the swordmasters as Jedi and Black Guard as Sith.

-I fully agree on the swordmasters, except that I would say that the swordmasters are fully rested in themselves, not their blades, since they are learned in more than just swordfighting.

Fair enough, that makes sense, though they do seem to consider the sword important too.

The second part of our argument, wether Eltharion could be a swordmaster or not, originates from personal opinion, it is my personal opinion, and one I have argued for, that Eltharion should not be a swordmaster.

Very well. I do not think that perspective is entirely fair to Eltharion or correct, but you can have whatever opinion you like.

And I hope I have cleared something up as well, and please, next time do not treat me that condescendingly, I, suprisingly for some perhaps, not stupid.

I crossed the line earlier; forgive me. To be honest it was lathian who really annoyed me, not you.

In any case, I hope we can ignore my little outburst and move on?

[lathian]

Classy, lathian, classy.

Then I'm not trying hard enough.

Could it be that I think my points are already clear enough? Could it be that I think it would be a waste of time to deal with Ruerl Khan's last attempt at a rebuttal on the grounds that my case is already clear and he evidently doesn't understand it?

No. I don't think you argument is so clear as to be fully or logically self evident. I think it can be expanded upon and clarified.

For instance, this:

That doesn't follow. In game mechanics, swordmasters have a higher WS than Black Guard. However, WS is irrelevant. There's nothing there that would allow you to generalise that swordmasters and Black Guard are equally skilled - but also nothing there that would let you generalise that one is superior to the other.

You would have to turn to background to make some sort of judgement. In this particular case background favours the swordmasters, as their prowess with the blade is repeatedly emphasised whereas the Black Guard's skill isn't.

is not made evident in any sense, and as such it should not have been said, or alternatively, by withdrawing, you are conceding that you don't know why this is the case.

I was not lying. I could quite easily respond point-by-point. I certainly think I'm still right.

Thinking oneself to be right is a far cry from actually having articulated correctness.

However, I have merely made the decision to bow out now because my argument is already laid out (and I would suggest self-evidently logical and correct) and I don't feel like spending several more hours battering it into the skulls of my adversaries, if you'll pardon the expression.

Arguments are like the best layed plans. They rarely survive contact with the enemy. Ratification, clarification. Even when the argument has been layed out, it needs further work. Failure to do so is to indicate a lack of knowledge of ones arguments.

If you have anything better to say that snappy one-liners that miss the point entirely, I suggest you do so. I'm sure we'd all enjoy seeing someone raise a point worthy of discussion.

I believe the above qualifies.

...

And yes, I realise this post is somewhat offensive. I am not very tolerant of stupidity, and while I think Ruerl Khan's argument is a poor one, at least he had the grace to make it clearly.

I'm a hypocrite. I found your withdrawal on those terms annoying, and articulated myself in the same way to demonstrate. Have I made it clear that your withdrawal in a similar manner was in fact, a similar situation? Or does that argument need to be expanded upon.

lathian's post was unproductive and annoying, and I do not like it when people try to provoke me. Tell you the truth, I was half-tempted to sit down and do a point-by-point response to that post of Ruerl Khan's just to show him, but that would be lowering myself to lathian's level, and while I make no particular attempts to be pleasant, I do hold myself higher than that.

I would rather hope you would, though to be honest all that I did was bring myself down to the level of someone who quits a debate before actually finishing it.

You may think that's hypocritical of me. Maybe it is. I'm just frustrated. I think I've made a crystal clear and watertight case, yet another rebuttal is made which, just like the previous ones, consistently fails to grasp my main points, I mention this and move to retire from the discussion, and suddenly a downright stupid and inflammatory comment like lathian's is thrown in my face. I shall be frank - I'm angry.

If you truly believe you have a foolproof argument, completely insoluble to logic or rationality, then you haven't thought it through.

All right. Let it not be said I'm a monster, troll, or flamer. I can control my emotions. Perhaps I need further tutoring in the way of the swordmaster! Let us treat each other civilly, lathian.

Treating one civilly removes my edge. I would prefer if all adversaries looked at me as a data set.

Blind Eltharion
- Ruerl Khan has suggested that it's unrealistic for Eltharion to learn to compensate for his blindness so quickly.
- My response contains two main points.
- Firstly, Eltharion is an elf and they have different physical capabilities to those of humans. Particularly noteworthy is their acute sensory perception and ability to focus on particular sensations. It is plausible to suggest that this would allow them to compensate for a physical disability in a way humans could not.

Flawed in that this heightened sense includes others, such as sight, reaction time and sixth senses, and yet he beat Belarion, the master of the swordmasters of Hoeth. An elf with a disadvantage would not have an advantage in this case, and so, he must have superceded the training in an art over a master by far to have beaten him.

- Secondly, while the development of a blind sense is fantastic and unrealistic, fantastic and unrealistic things are common in Warhammer Fantasy and we come to accept them with the setting. Eltharion's abilities are not incongruous with that setting.

It is incongruous that his hearing would supercede the sum total of a master elf's superior, more numerous senses.

- Thirdly, though I failed to mention this earlier, Eltharion is, as are all swordmasters, tutored in minor spells and magical abilities at the White Tower, which offer another possible justification for his ability to compensate for his blindness.

He beat a master of both martial arts and magic, after a mere 10 years, which should not have happened.

- Both swordmasters and Black Guard are extremely proficient fighters, representative of the best of the martial traditions of the High Elves and Dark Elves.

Please provide a quote for this. I don't see any indication that the black guard are of a similar function or skill level when compared to swordmasters. WS is the actual level of proficiency at fighting. Swordmasters have a higher value, and this means they are better at the fighting arts.

- The Black Guard's strength comes from the strength of his hatred. He opens himself to the totality of his emotion and accepts all sensory input. From this he moves, driven by strong, uncontrolled emotion, to strike. He surrenders himself to the strength of that emotion and is lost in it, allowing him to move and fight with the raw ferocity of his hatred.

If this were true, they would not have stubborn. However, as they do, they don't fully rely on open emotions. They are also more aggressive, but that does not make them as skilled as the swordmaster. There are differences between the two, even though the mechanics look similar.

- To generalise, then, the Black Guard's weapon is intense emotion, while the swordmaster's is intense focus.

Read up on Asian theories of fighting to see what the ramifications of this are.

- A person capable of melding these approaches is capable of greater feats than the average swordmaster or Black Guard. Such a person is able to feel and be driven by the power of the Black Guard's hatred while in the swordmaster's state of no mind, with that hyper-awareness.

Even an elf is incapable of being carried by a rage while finding that zen state. They are, so to speak, mutually exclusive means to an end.

[FVC]

Thinking oneself to be right is a far cry from actually having articulated correctness.

True. Nonetheless I am of the opinion that my point was articulated fairly clearly. If it was not, well, I restated it in point form so as to hopefully fix any problems of expression.

Arguments are like the best layed plans. They rarely survive contact with the enemy. Ratification, clarification. Even when the argument has been layed out, it needs further work. Failure to do so is to indicate a lack of knowledge of ones arguments.

How is it, exactly, that choosing not to restate an argument in simpler and plainer terms every time indicates that I don't understand my own argument? I made it clearly. Indeed, Ruerl Khan in his last post indicated that he understood the argument, which would seem to suggest that my case isn't as inarticulate as you seem to think.

Treating one civilly removes my edge. I would prefer if all adversaries looked at me as a data set.

So I shouldn't treat my opponent with respect or as a human being? I was wrong to make those earlier comments because I failed to do that. After all, we are all humans, and I think I should try to be civil, even though I often fail.

Flawed in that this heightened sense includes others, such as sight, reaction time and sixth senses, and yet he beat Belarion, the master of the swordmasters of Hoeth. An elf with a disadvantage would not have an advantage in this case, and so, he must have superceded the training in an art over a master by far to have beaten him.

The master's name was Belannaer. If I were feeling particularly uncharitable I might say your mistake in this instance is indicative of unfamiliarity with the source material, but I ought to be forgiving and assume it's an honest mistake.

In any case, it is correct that for Eltharion to have defeated Belannaer, it must be true that Eltharion is a superior combatant to Belannaer, at least insofar as that particular duel went. In which case it's worth remembering that it was a sparring match, so neither combatant was going all out, and Belannaer was deliberately using an unorthodox strategy. Belannaer chose to circle around Eltharion, attempting to use Eltharion's blindness to his advantage, and he was caught off guard when Eltharion demonstrated the ability to sense Belannaer's movements and defeated. As such, using that duel as evidence that Eltharion is a superior swordsman to Belannaer is perhaps shaky. Belannaer was defeated because he assumed Eltharion hadn't compensated for his blindness, and underestimating one's opponent is a great mistake. Indeed, the passage points out that Belannaer laughed at Eltharion's claim that he was strong enough to be a swordmaster. Belannaer underestimated Eltharion and was surprised.

Regardless, there's nothing inconsistent in supposing that Eltharion is a superior combatant to Belannaer. Eltharion has a disadvantage in his blindness, no matter how he may have compensated for it, so he must be a finer swordsman than Belannaer if he really is a better warrior than him. In that regard it's worth pointing out that by Belannaer's own estimation Eltharion is 'as skilled a fighter as any on Ulthuan', and Belannaer himself is a retired swordmaster, no longer practicing. ('He had spent many years practicing his art and though his talents were now directed towards the mastery of magic, he still considered himself one of the finest swordsmen on Ulthuan.')

How could such superiority be explained? The fusion style I'm proposing is one way, of course. As I believe I said earlier in this topic, Eltharion is like an exarch of the swordmasters, if you know the term.

It is incongruous that his hearing would supercede the sum total of a master elf's superior, more numerous senses.

Was Eltharion more aware than Belannaer? He simply defeated him. There's nothing particularly implausible about that if we grant Eltharion's other abilities, especially considering the circumstances of that duel, which make it possible that while a prepared and focused Belannaer could defeat Eltharion, he simply didn't on that particular occasion.

He beat a master of both martial arts and magic, after a mere 10 years, which should not have happened.

It did happen, and if you read the passage where it does, there's nothing wrong with it provided you accept that Eltharion can compensate for his blindness and can learn unusually quickly, neither of which are impossible.

Please provide a quote for this. I don't see any indication that the black guard are of a similar function or skill level when compared to swordmasters. WS is the actual level of proficiency at fighting. Swordmasters have a higher value, and this means they are better at the fighting arts.

WS is a game mechanics abstraction and inadmissible as evidence.

So, Black Guard as the pinnacle of the Dark Elf martial tradition. Let's turn to the Dark Elf AB itself -

These are the Black Guard, the soldier of our capital Naggarond, and they are the fiercest fighters in all the Land of Chill.

Seems to me that that's an explicit statement that the Black Guard are the greatest warriors of the Dark Elves.

Note, of course, that I don't dispute a swordmaster is of greater technical skill to a Black Guard.

If this were true, they would not have stubborn. However, as they do, they don't fully rely on open emotions. They are also more aggressive, but that does not make them as skilled as the swordmaster. There are differences between the two, even though the mechanics look similar.

Various depictions of Dark Elf soldiery and nobles would seem to indicate that they consider strong emotion a boon. For example, here's a passage from White Dwarf, where a High Elf commander named Corwin fights a Dark Elf noble named Maleus in single combat -

"Asur!" Maleus cried, levelling his halberd at the Elf before him, who stopped to regard the ashen face of his dark kin.
"Malekith is the true heir to the throne of Ulthuan," Maleus taunted him.
"You are undone by your rage," Corwin countered, raising his sword.
Maleus responded with a mock salute.
"Let us see who is undone," he declared.
Silver flashed and steel crashed against steel as thunder and lightning raged in the heavens. The two generals were well-matched but Corwin was tiring and the weight of the battle had swung against him. He lunged with his blade but Maleus was quick to avoid the blow and smashed Corwin cruelly in the chest, sending him to his knees.
The Dark Elf noble laughed with hard-edged derision, standing over the beaten Elf commander as the rain pelted down. He raised his halberd high above his head and prepared for the deathblow.
"Now, you will see the worth of my rage, Elf-kin," he said.

You will note that this Dark Elf considers rage to be central to his fighting ability and general might, and that the High Elf disputes it and argues that rage will work against him. It's an almost explicit example of the philosophical dichotomy I've been saying exists.

Read up on Asian theories of fighting to see what the ramifications of this are.

Or Western, for that matter. Theories of fighting tend to be similar across cultures because humans are humans regardless. I'm not saying blind rage is a practical martial technique. Indeed, if we were talking about humans in the real world, the one that stays calm and centred is going to defeat the one in a blind fury almost every time.

I suppose you could say that's reflected in the greater skill of the swordmaster relative to the Black Guard, but nonetheless we are talking about a fantasy world with fantasy physics. The Black Guard, and Dark Elf warriors in general, have great technical skill I'm sure, but the source material suggests that there is this emphasis on a passionate warrior spirit not present among their High Elf counterparts.

Even an elf is incapable of being carried by a rage while finding that zen state. They are, so to speak, mutually exclusive means to an end.

As I think I said, and as Belannaer recognised, Eltharion was incapable of finding that state of peace. He's merely capable of intense focus; focus which swordmasters use to reach their calm state but which Eltharion misuses to fuel his combat skill.

[lathian]

True. Nonetheless I am of the opinion that my point was articulated fairly clearly. If it was not, well, I restated it in point form so as to hopefully fix any problems of expression.

Do you really want to know what my conclusion on opinions is?

How is it, exactly, that choosing not to restate an argument in simpler and plainer terms every time indicates that I don't understand my own argument? I made it clearly. Indeed, Ruerl Khan in his last post indicated that he understood the argument, which would seem to suggest that my case isn't as inarticulate as you seem to think.

Inarticulate is not the same as having failed to articulate correctness.

So I shouldn't treat my opponent with respect or as a human being? I was wrong to make those earlier comments because I failed to do that. After all, we are all humans, and I think I should try to be civil, even though I often fail.

I don't believe you should have to be civil. In debate, I feel no need to, and indeed at an objective level, there is no need for it. In essence, one should be detached and unemotional, lest they let the ideals and passions of the argument blind them from objectivity.

The master's name was Belannaer. If I were feeling particularly uncharitable I might say your mistake in this instance is indicative of unfamiliarity with the source material, but I ought to be forgiving and assume it's an honest mistake.

I can say right now, I don't give a damn about any spelling, as it has no bearing on content.

In any case, it is correct that for Eltharion to have defeated Belannaer, it must be true that Eltharion is a superior combatant to Belannaer, at least insofar as that particular duel went. In which case it's worth remembering that it was a sparring match, so neither combatant was going all out, and Belannaer was deliberately using an unorthodox strategy. Belannaer chose to circle around Eltharion, attempting to use Eltharion's blindness to his advantage, and he was caught off guard when Eltharion demonstrated the ability to sense Belannaer's movements and defeated. As such, using that duel as evidence that Eltharion is a superior swordsman to Belannaer is perhaps shaky. Belannaer was defeated because he assumed Eltharion hadn't compensated for his blindness, and underestimating one's opponent is a great mistake. Indeed, the passage points out that Belannaer laughed at Eltharion's claim that he was strong enough to be a swordmaster. Belannaer underestimated Eltharion and was surprised.

Does that change anything? He is still superior with a blade than the blind Eltharion should have been able to be, and having these advantages should not have been nullified by mere surprise. Surprise is an excellent tool, but is it really good enough to counter decades of experience in the art, as well as a greater set of sensory input? The sight, hearing and other senses of Bellenear still should, all told, supercede the sum total of the senses of Eltharion. If you were to say anything, one could say Eltharion had an advantage, and Bellenear had an advantage. The better of the two should win, and the one who should be better in this art is Bellenear.

Regardless, there's nothing inconsistent in supposing that Eltharion is a superior combatant to Belannaer. Eltharion has a disadvantage in his blindness, no matter how he may have compensated for it, so he must be a finer swordsman than Belannaer if he really is a better warrior than him. In that regard it's worth pointing out that by Belannaer's own estimation Eltharion is 'as skilled a fighter as any on Ulthuan', and Belannaer himself is a retired swordmaster, no longer practicing. ('He had spent many years practicing his art and though his talents were now directed towards the mastery of magic, he still considered himself one of the finest swordsmen on Ulthuan.')

As fine as any though, is a clear lie, as he does not approach the level of Tyrion. Nor is there any reason to suppose that he actually should hold a position at that level. However, I'll say that given Eltharions history, he is not in fact that spectacular a warrior that I would say he is deserving of the skills that were given to him. He was mortally wounded by a witch elf, for instance, was bested in a one on one match by Malekith, and chose not to fight in the thick of melee against Grom's army, instead, relying primarily on magic, which he gained through an item, not through proper training. He has not shown, up until blind version, any particular skill with the blade. He showed greater proficiency in inspiring armies, and in blowing things up with magic.

How could such superiority be explained? The fusion style I'm proposing is one way, of course. As I believe I said earlier in this topic, Eltharion is like an exarch of the swordmasters, if you know the term.

A personification of that aspect of war. No he is not. To be that, he would need to embrace the ideals of the swordmaster to such a degree that he could not leave that calmed mental state. He would have to be the pinnacle of reaction and calm. The fusion would be an autarch, and even then, that's not really the proper classification, as he never trained as a shadow warrior or a black guard, who are the two who have as much hatred as Eltharion.

Was Eltharion more aware than Belannaer? He simply defeated him. There's nothing particularly implausible about that if we grant Eltharion's other abilities, especially considering the circumstances of that duel, which make it possible that while a prepared and focused Belannaer could defeat Eltharion, he simply didn't on that particular occasion.

Not likely. If he was exceeded in martial skills in that instance, it would not unlikely be replicated in an event where both were more serious on the issue.

It did happen, and if you read the passage where it does, there's nothing wrong with it provided you accept that Eltharion can compensate for his blindness and can learn unusually quickly, neither of which are impossible.

Neither of which are evidenced. At best you could say he's an exemplar, but considering he holds none of their ideals, I'd say it is incoherent that he be able to learn their practice that quickly.

I'll also note that him making it to the white tower was wholly inappropriate, considering how the wards around the white tower work.

WS is a game mechanics abstraction and inadmissible as evidence.

So, Black Guard as the pinnacle of the Dark Elf martial tradition. Let's turn to the Dark Elf AB itself -

These are the Black Guard, the soldier of our capital Naggarond, and they are the fiercest fighters in all the Land of Chill.

Seems to me that that's an explicit statement that the Black Guard are the greatest warriors of the Dark Elves.

Fierce =/= skill. It's not nearly as explicit as you make it seem. Additionally, one can in fact be superior to the other, even though they are the most skilled within their own lands. So, swordmasters can in fact be far superior to black guard in skill. Also please explain why abstract ruling are inadmissable. Until you can say why, I'll have to assume you are conceding the point.

Note, of course, that I don't dispute a swordmaster is of greater technical skill to a Black Guard.

And the other kind is? There are many ends to the same result. They need not all be called the same thing. Anger is not skill, and if one uses it to achieve similar results as the one with skill, then really, why say that they are equally skilled? I would say that "The swordmasters are one roughly equivalent battlefield footing (they are not, but I'm defending your position here.) by using, in the case of swordmasters, martial skill, and in the case of black guard, hatred." This is a defensable position, but yours is not.

Various depictions of Dark Elf soldiery and nobles would seem to indicate that they consider strong emotion a boon. For example, here's a passage from White Dwarf, where a High Elf commander named Corwin fights a Dark Elf noble named Maleus in single combat -

"Asur!" Maleus cried, levelling his halberd at the Elf before him, who stopped to regard the ashen face of his dark kin.
"Malekith is the true heir to the throne of Ulthuan," Maleus taunted him.
"You are undone by your rage," Corwin countered, raising his sword.
Maleus responded with a mock salute.
"Let us see who is undone," he declared.
Silver flashed and steel crashed against steel as thunder and lightning raged in the heavens. The two generals were well-matched but Corwin was tiring and the weight of the battle had swung against him. He lunged with his blade but Maleus was quick to avoid the blow and smashed Corwin cruelly in the chest, sending him to his knees.
The Dark Elf noble laughed with hard-edged derision, standing over the beaten Elf commander as the rain pelted down. He raised his halberd high above his head and prepared for the deathblow.
"Now, you will see the worth of my rage, Elf-kin," he said.

You will note that this Dark Elf considers rage to be central to his fighting ability and general might, and that the High Elf disputes it and argues that rage will work against him. It's an almost explicit example of the philosophical dichotomy I've been saying exists.

Note that it hatred only, and that it is not all encompassing. Note as well that the other is not a swordmaster, and thus the rage vs. calm is not a valid comparison. Sure one is calm, but is he skilled? Calm without skill is fairly useless.

Or Western, for that matter. Theories of fighting tend to be similar across cultures because humans are humans regardless. I'm not saying blind rage is a practical martial technique. Indeed, if we were talking about humans in the real world, the one that stays calm and centred is going to defeat the one in a blind fury almost every time.

I suppose you could say that's reflected in the greater skill of the swordmaster relative to the Black Guard, but nonetheless we are talking about a fantasy world with fantasy physics. The Black Guard, and Dark Elf warriors in general, have great technical skill I'm sure, but the source material suggests that there is this emphasis on a passionate warrior spirit not present among their High Elf counterparts.

Hatred only. I don't see much other than bloodlust and malice. Other emotions are considered boons and curses in warfare, and the high elves do show these emotions. Love, for instance, serves Tyrion fairly well. I would even go so far as to say that the elves of Ulthuan have a great love for their land, which grants them some emotional strength, and I would also go so far as to say that swordmasters don't heed that distraction.

As I think I said, and as Belannaer recognised, Eltharion was incapable of finding that state of peace. He's merely capable of intense focus; focus which swordmasters use to reach their calm state but which Eltharion misuses to fuel his combat skill.

If one is that focused, how can one have the time to think on ones anger? And if one is not thinking one is enraged, how can that actually be enrage, unless he's blinded by it? And if he's blinded by anger, how can he be focusing on anything other than his rage?

[lathian]

I'm going to summarize what I think is the key problem with your theories, or rather, your articulation of them. You have several implicit language assumptions that you think are prudential, but in debate, you have to use them in a semantic manner. In other words, you are assuming that certain words are perfectly equivalent, when they are not. I think this is one of the key flaws in your argumentation. If you were to look and think "Is fierce really equivalent to skill?" then that debate would never have happened.

For the Eltharion one I won't deny that what you assert is possible, but I will strongly say that it is implausible to the point where it does not really need further discussion as to whether or not GW should have axed it. It is unlikely enough, that in axing it, the world became a little more clear, a little more realistic, and it seems that that is a good thing, based around the amount of debate on realism on these threads.

[Eldacar]

The witch-sight, yes. Shall we take that as the explanation, then?

I've copied out a few bits and pieces from RoS that deal with Witchsight (can't be bothered looking for WHFB evidence right now, since I'm tired and have a really annoying ear infection):

"Any person possessing witchsight sees the world as if through two types of vision superimposed on one another. With his normal mundane sight, the Aethyrically sensitive person sees like any other Human does. With his witchsight, the person actually sees the Winds of Magic to some degree, either as swirling clouds and rivers of churning coloured energy, or as manifestations of their own thoughts, memories, emotions, expectations, beliefs, and fears and those of the people around them. The common expression of witchsight in untrained magic users is as strange shapes and flickering lights just at the corner of their vision. Depending upon how strong one's witchsight is, one may be able to see the movements of magic and magically charged items and beings, even in the dark or if one's eyes are shut, blinded or missing."

It goes on to note that some people with the most developed witchsight are able to see the entire world even without their eyes, seeing the thoughts, intentions and so on (basically, seeing souls, not bodies) for every living thing and how magic swirls around them. It can also never be 'turned off'. You can ignore it if you're good enough, however. The strongest human magisters have trouble, but good elven mages (as in, not just the average one, but a good one) might find it a bit easier.

Is it an excuse for Eltharion to not be completely blind? I don't quite think so. He may or may not possess witchsight, but he hasn't really shown himself to be "highly trained" in it like one would expect an Archmage or high-up Mage in general to be.

[Ruerl Khan]

I took the time re-reading the 6th edition book once more, and stumbled upon a few interesting details that further undermines any right Eltharion should have to call himself a swordmaster.

1: He has learned to compensate for his blindness and other injuries, in 7 months, not a decade, not even a year, there is only seven months between him being returned and the duel.
2: Nowhere does it say that he was trained in the arts of the swordmasters, only that he was able to defeath Belannaer.
3: It does'nt state that he can hear Belannaer's breath, only that he heard the soft "clinks" in the armour.
(a note to the shadowblade discussion: He does'nt wear armour that makes such sounds, oh and swords through the air makes practically no sound either, and thrusts make none whatsoever, so if it was realistic then all we needed to do to kill Eltharion would be to thrust at him).

How could such superiority be explained? The fusion style I'm proposing is one way, of course. As I believe I said earlier in this topic, Eltharion is like an exarch of the swordmasters, if you know the term.

Ah, but Eltharion only had seven months and "even the most talented swordmasters took decades to train", and note that nowhere does it state that he recieves the swordmaster training, he had books read to him, thats all the story states.

Also note that Belannaer does'nt give him martial training once he (at knife point) accepts Eltharion into the order, he tells him to study his heart.

In short: There is nothing pointing towards Eltharion being a person who should be considered a swordmaster, especially not since the story gives the strong impression that he got it at knife point.

Read up on Asian theories of fighting to see what the ramifications of this are.

Or Western, for that matter. Theories of fighting tend to be similar across cultures because humans are humans regardless. I'm not saying blind rage is a practical martial technique. Indeed, if we were talking about humans in the real world, the one that stays calm and centred is going to defeat the one in a blind fury almost every time.

/rant mode:
Nowhere in any known fighting guide surviving from the medieval times have I seen a guide to keeping yourself level headed, its implicit in fighting as you need control to be a good swordsman, but there are no such thing as a comparative philosophy on swordfighting.

Only comparative note on swordfighting between the east and the west is that you need to use as little possible energy to the greatest possible effect.

Keep in mind though, that its alltogether possible that we would have developed a similair philosophy on swordfighting if we had a tradition for training it so long as the asian combat arts, -but we don't, so its a fruitless speculation.

I'll give one example though on physically similair actions between Aikido and WMA as shown in the Lichtenauer tradition:
In Aikido its important that you lay down your enemy with as little danger to the subject and yourself as possible, note that it takes consideration to the subject, so when Aikido twists an arm to put the person in a throw, it usually supports the subject around the shoulders, the modern reasoning behind this is that you get a better leverage.

The effective way to do the exact same thing however is to lay the leverage on his elbow, that breaks his arm, and throws him, and if you strike him hard enough at the shoulder area while twisting his arm in an arm-lock you'll invalidate him for life through breaking some sinew that runs through the shoulder and down into the arm, it does'nt regrow.

In short: Eastern martial arts have a and is a philosophy, western martial arts is a instruction into hurting someone.

-At least as far as goes the comparatibles between swordfighting as it was studied historically and how asian combat schools work today.

/rant off

Regards

Ruerl

[fireblade]

I overheard someone mentioning Morelion... What happened to him in the new book?

Fireblade

[Eldacar]

I overheard someone mentioning Morelion... What happened to him in the new book?

Not much. We just got a little bit more insight into what he did after not taking up his father's mantle. It still doesn't say why he didn't become the next Phoenix King ("History fails to record why..."), but does mention that he spent his life collecting varied and powerful magical artifacts.