Ulthuan

It definitely seems that way. Which makes it great for one-off games (where you want to win but make your opponent feel like they have a chance ), but it's less good for tournaments where you don't just want to win, but you also want to win as big as possible.

Do you think there's small changes you could make to the list to get some bigger wins? Or would that need a complete rewrite of the list?

The troll looks great. One more to get the unit finished I think. We need a family shot once it's done of course

Rod

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I like the new troll! Your army has a very old-school Fantasy look to it that I like a lot. Is all the black outlining done with a wash, or do you prime a model black and then only paint the raised sections? Or perhaps something else?

Thanks guys.


I feel the army book just lacks the good fast attack options to achieve this. No good cavalry buses, no good monsters, no good solo characters. It’s no surprise that successful O&G lists almost always favour artillery. Curu Olannon used to make the point that an aggressive army can often avoid a heavy loss by pulling back if things start to go badly against a gunline for example. Many players though, don’t recognise this point quickly enough, so defensive lists can rack up big wins in the right circumstances. The SCGT win I mentioned in CR’s thread was mostly down to crushing multiple aggressive WoC as O&G love facing armour.


This! I’ve been painting a long time and found that this gives the best results I’m likely to achieve.

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Game Three
Vampire Counts

Back to business! The third game featured a pair of Giants, who would cause (largely) random mischief. I found myself up against Liam and his undead hordes:

Necromancer Lord, Lvl 4, Stuff.
Banshee

45 Skeleton Warriors, FC
45 Skeleton Warriors, FC
20 Skeleton Warriors, FC

40 Grave Guard, FC, Barrows Banner
6 Crypt Horrors
5 Crypt Horrors

6 Ogre Maneaters, Sniper, Brace of Pistols
3 Ogre Maneaters, 2 x Brace, 1 Great Weapon

Thoughts on the match-up?

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In terms of fast units for O&G, you can chose from (savage) orc boar boys, 2 chariots, squig hoppers, arachnaroks and manglers. You can probably make an interesting fast list (with some wolf / spider riders in core). With spears and choppas the boar boys can get up to S6 in the first round, which is pretty nice. The downside is that you're still stuck at M7, which is decent but not terribly fast (you're down 4'' on a march compared to dragon princes for instance). And some of that movement is completely unreliable. So it would be a fun list, but it's probably not playing to the O&G strengths.

As for the VC matchup. 110 skeletons is a lot to get through. You don't want to get stuck there while the harder hitting elements can pick and chose where to hit you. The Maneaters are a fun choice, but I don't think they are the strongest choice. Still, 12 sniper shots can hurt. I think that if you can afford the skeletons early on you have a good chance against this army.

Rod

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That VC list is certainly very interesting. I think you have the advantage with killing power, by quite a bit. I don't know much about Maneaters so I cannot really comment on them, but they are small Ogre units. Outside of any damage they do, the only real killing power in the list is from the Grave Guard, but even them without something like a Wight King or a Vampire in there they can struggle due to low WS and lack of attacks. The list looks like a points-denial list, designed to stick around for ages and ages without losing units, and then the Ogres try to snipe characters and the Grave Guard try to beat 1-2 enemy units to score the win. I'd say a really important thing will be denying the magic phase of your opponent and trying to draw the units away from each other. One Necromancer is dangerous in my opinion, as 1 casting of Invocation isn't that much and it's not got a fantastic range, the enemy will have to be very very clumped, particularly with such massive units as he's got.

I'd put you ahead in this match-up, but not by a massive degree. I think victory for you will depend on dealing damage quickly, grinds will favor your opponent massively.

This.


This is true but thankfully I have the Beasts and the Trolls, both good at killing Infantry. Unfortunately Liam has plenty of Monstrous Infantry himself.


They’re not bad CR. Rod is probably right that a maxed-out list would omit them but they are Strength 5 and have Special Rules. I forgot to list that these also had Vanguard but we completely forgot this and for my Wolf Riders too! In fact I had to remind Liam to move them in his first turn!


The main issue here is Killing Blow, even with my characters rocking Ward saves.


I agree.


Deployment

Liam decided not to contest his left flank. Both units of Ogres were on his right.



On the other side of the tower were the Grave Guard, screening the Necromancer’s Skeleton bunker. Then we had a big skelly block (with Banshee), Crypt Horrors, another block and more CH’s, still roughly in the centre.





As mentioned, a pair of Giants were present to complicate things, one on each flank, roughly on the centre line. I’d played with these at one of Mark’s tournaments a few years ago but this time forgot to deploy far back as a precaution. This was especially risky given Liam was likely to get the first turn (and hence some influence over the Giants) because he had fewer deployment drops. On my left, roughly opposite the Ogres, I deployed the Flamers, Skillcannon, a Mangler and a bolt shooter. A second war machine is out of shot to the far left.



In the centre I had the Arrer Boyz, main block screened by Snotlings, then Trolls.



On my right, overlapping Liam’s line, were the second Mangler, the Beasts and the Wolf Riders, with the third artillery piece behind.

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I think they're a very flavourfull unit. One of my favorite ones in terms of fluff / rules. Though flavourfull doesn't really mean strong. They hold a weird middle ground between characters and regular R&F units. They can (up to a degree) take individual equipment on each model (so one can take a rgeat weapon while another brings brace of pistols). You casn give a bunch of extra special rules to them (at a cost of course), like strider, stubborn, swiftstride. Which makes them very flexible and fun. And, with sniper they can be deadly if they can get in range. I would say that is the main thing here to watch out for for SA. he doesn't want them sniping his general and / or BSB, since that would be trouble for his army (which I would guess is their main purpose in this list).

Still, if I had to pick a unit of ogres as a shooting element for my army, I would have gone for leadbelchers.

As for the deployment, I'm not a huge fan of yours SA. Though it's hard to judge exactly, but it feels like you lined up with his army too much. Both of your armies are slow, which means there's a risk that you simply run straight at each other. Which is not a fight you can easily win I think.

As a side note, that VC army looks great.

Rod

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The Vampire left looks to be the weakest to me. They are out of march range and out of easy invocation range. I think your deployment could have used a bit of a shift to the right, to capitalize on that. I'm not sure about how much of the ranged firepower is on the left, considering that the only enemy ranged units are directly opposite them. I'm expecting your center to be a bit cautious and advance the right, while I assume the Vampires will charge across the field to try to get into combat before your shooting does too much damage.

I look forward to the game!

Happily the deployments make this unlikely, at least until late in the game.


Agreed, I played a 17-Leadbelcher list once and it was no joke.

Vanguard can also be pretty dangerous on them. I lost a Round 4 game to a Teclis list once, 8-12. Next game I won heavily vs Daemons while Teclis went down 0-20 because a unit of Vanguarding Maneaters got into his White Lion bunker early doors.



Because I’m shooting on a 4” smartphone I tend to take closer pictures and this can mean missing out on battlefield-wide views. In isolation I think my deployment would have been OK. The Ogres have a choice between going for my disposable shooters or wheeling into the centre and eating flank shots. I may have trouble turning the VC left but once the Beasts get in (and they are M6 Swiftstride) they should simply start grinding anything down and provide a platform for the Trolls and Orcs to do their stuff. The problem is the two giants, not visible in my pictures. One is between the Ogres and Flamers, the other in front of the Beasts.

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let's see what happens.

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Turn One

The dice decided that the Giants would move and Liam, having won first turn, duly sent them into my units, the Flamers on my left and the Beasts on my right. The Ogres advanced rapidly while the rest of the VC army was more measured.





Magic saw some skeletons raised while shooting didn’t do much. The Beasts beat their Giant but he held on Stubborn. The poor Flamers though were bludgeoned to death followed by an Overrun into the Skillcannon!



I settled on a staggered advance.



Magic and shooting whiffed but the Beasts killed their Giant. A long grind began between the other one and the Skillcannon.

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That's very unfortunate about the Giants, your left flank will suffer from that, the Ogres have a lot of freedom of movement now. It's also a shame that the Giant held the Beasts back a bit, but it's fortunate that you killed it relatively quickly. I wonder if maybe delaying the advance of the Trolls and the Squig a bit might have helped some, just because the Beasts were slowed down? From the image it doesn't look like the Trolls advanced too far though, so hopefully there won't be any issues.

Looking forwards to Turn 2!

Yeah, that was actually a pretty painful turn. Not so much the beasts, they're fast enough to not have suffered much from the giant. But the other one has taken out a large part of your shooting for the important first turns.

It does sound like a slight imbalance in the scenario that both giants are able to charge first turn. Are they worth anything (victory points or the like)? I would have given them an artillery dice movement or 2D6 random movement. This would have only in rare cases let them charge T1 (assuming they deploy on the central line and you're 12'' from the middle). They can still be anoying with that movement, but not completely throw off one side and leave the other untouched.

Rod

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Poison vs no saves CR!


All will shortly become clear.


Yes Rod, normal 200VP’s each.

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Turn Two

The VC’s ground forward. Gaze of Nagash only wounded one Mangler. A scream from the Banshee, who had left her unit, also failed to kill the other. Giant v Skillcannon stuck. I thought better of a long Troll charge and instead swung my right around in a line.



Neither Mangler made contact. A 4v3 phase saw me throw a 4-die Fireball at the Banshee but the roll was low and it was dispelled. Shooting killed a Maneater and the combat ground on.

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I'm not sure you're in a good position. You're threatening the flank on your right and your manglers are in a position where they can be annoying. But I'm not sure it will be enough. The large skeleton unit can simply step on the right Mangler without too much worry. Yes, 3D6 S6 hits will hurt. But they have enough bodies to not have to worry about it too much. And if they then swing their line round they will prevent your flanking maneuvre and force you into a grind, where I think they have the upper hand.

The left flank is a bit of a stalemate. But I think the Ogres should be able to deal with the skillcanon or start dishing out long ranged pain. They should be getting into range to start trying to snipe some of your characters I think. Which can start hurting...

Still, all is not lost. You've not actually given up much in terms of units. And if you're able to force a breakthrough on either flank you could still be in a decent spot.

Rod

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I think I like your position a bit more than Rod.

Your left flank I'd say is in trouble, but you've shifted the Orc block far enough away that there's not much in your left flank for those Ogres to engage and kill, I think you've recovered from the issues of the Giant about as much as possible. The left Mangler I think is doomed, which is a shame. On the right I think you've got a good flanking maneuver set up. The Vampire left is slightly pinned by the Mangler, if they hold back the Mangler can easily be killed but I think that gives you the advantage as you can concentrate forces and movement better. If they move forwards that gives you the grind advantage as the Mangler will kill some things. I still think the Vampire left is a bit far from the Necromancer for proper magical support, I think you've got a chance of overwhelming the Vampire left, his large blocks will make wheeling to face you more difficult. I'd guess you've got 2-3 rounds of combat without much interference if you charge in Turn 3, anything longer than that and I'm concerned for you.

I look forwards to turn 3, I think it will be decisive!

I feel things were quite evenly poised after turn two Rod.


Well it was certainly eventful CR! Sorry I’ve taken so long to post this, there's been a fair bit to do behind the scenes.

Turn Three

The leftmost Crypt Horrors charged the Trolls, while the Banshee moved onto her Mangler, destroying it and taking no damage due to being Ethereal. The Ogres advanced and the rest of the line rotated slightly. Magic removed the second Mangler. Poison whiffed and the CH’s lost a model.



The Beasts charged the Skeletons.



Slightly unnerved by the threat on my left I decided to take decisive action. A boosted 6-dice Foot of Gork went off Irresistibly and killed half the second unit of Crypt Horrors! I then of course Cascaded my Shaman and blew away half his unit.



The Beasts ground quite a few Skeletons down. The Trolls though lost by two as Poison bit deep. Needing a 7 to hold they rolled a 10 followed by an agonising 8 and Fled, surviving the Pursuit.

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You're probably correct. You still have most of the heavy hitters of your army intact and nothing decisive has happened. I guess the feeling is mainly that you're running a bit low on space to maneuvre in. And those VC blocks are tough to grind down and get some points off.


Completely didn't think of that possibility. It's of course the biggest weakness of manglers. If you have something that can step on them and not care (or you have something cheap like an eagle) then they aren't much of an issue (though you do need to deal with them promptly).


Do you think this was a worthwile trade? losing the mage definitely hurts. But you did do some significant damage in return.
The two crucial things coming up I think are how long the beasts need to go through the skelletons and can you keep the trolls on the board. If the trolls run off and the beasts take too long then you're running out of options to score points. Though of course there still is the Skillcanon on your left as a sort of substitute waiting to be allowed back into the game.

I do think that your opponent is being a bit too cautious (or indecisive). Maybe that will change with the manglers gone. But as said, I think that one of the advantages of his list over yours is the ability to grind down units. And without getting into combat you're not actually achieving that.

Rod

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No Rod. Lost my whole magic phase (and 300 VP’s) and significantly weakened my key unit. It was bad luck though.


Beasts are awesome at chewing through Infantry and Unstable helps a lot with this. The Trolls sadly, broke in my turn so were facing a T4 charge they were unlikely to outpace.


By the start of Turn 4 the Ogres were in charge range and the Grave Guard nearing it. Arguably this should have been the case sooner though.

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I have to say, I'm surprised the Crypt Horrors charged the Trolls. Both units hit the same and wound the same, but the Trolls have a better save and outnumber the Crypt Horrors. I'd say this was a mistake on the part of the Vampire player, especially since that put the Crypt Horrors so far away from their magical support. That said, it seems to have worked out wonderfully for them! Did you get particularly unlucky in your turn with the combat rolls?

It's a shame about the Manglers, but they did give some board control I think. The Beasts going into the Skeletons was good, and with that second Crypt Horror unit severely weakened, I'd say the Beasts have a good shot.

The Trolls breaking and the Shaman Cascading seem to be significant disasters, though. How's the Skull Cannon been doing against the Giant? I think going into Turn 4 your opponent is in the lead, I'm interested to see how you plan to bring it back!

Liam said that the Crypt Horrors charged the Trolls to avoid combat with the Beasts CR. As you know, Poison tends to blow hot and cold, sometimes it’s lethal. I still had good chances to make that that re-rollable Ld 7 but a Ld 10 General would have made all the difference here and not for the first time.


I believe the Cannon finally emerged victorious at the end of turn three but memory fails me slightly.

Turn Four

The small Maneaters charged and destroyed a bolt shooter as did the larger unit, though it might have been the Skillcannon. The Grave Guard swung round to menace my main block and the central Crypt Horrors charged the engaged Beasts. The other CH’s duly charged the Fleeing Trolls, who exited the battlefield. Some minor buffs went off but the Beasts won combat handily again.

The Arrer Boyz, irrelevant until this point, once again went berserk and charged the Grave Guard! I Swift Reformed the main block and headed for the hills. After more crunching, one Crypt Horror and a handful of Skeletons remained facing the Beasts. The Arrers were soundly beaten but outdistanced the Grave Guard. We were informed that there wasn’t enough time for another turn so that was that.





8-12

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All things considered, that's a pretty good outcome for you I think. It could of course have been a lot better if the beasts had managed to kill one or both of the units they were facing. On the other hand, it could also have been a lot worse, especially if the game would have run for a couple more turns. You only had the beasts left as a serious unit, while the rest was either already gone or trying their hardest to avoid any serious combat.

I had completely forgotten you had the arrer boys. Are they worth the investment? I'm not sure they managed to do much in any of the games so far. Though that might just be my memory abandoning me. At least their charge must have been epic to watch

LD7 or LD9 (or 10) is a huge difference. Though I'm still capable to fail a rerollable LD10 test, it's a lot more secure then the LD7 one. I would count on failing at least one or two of those in a game.

I'm now also thinking back to the discussion we had earlier about your opponents list and the ogre's. It seems like our doubt about their usefulness was justified. They did okay, but not outstanding.

Rod

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True, Poison can be lethal, but I'm not sure I would rely on it. It was still risky in my opinion, but it obviously worked!


It's a shame about the loss. I think the Giants really messed you up at the beginning, which was just bad luck. I'm not sure if things would have been much better for you if the game continued, you'd probably score points off the Skeleton and Crypt Horror block engaged with the Beasts and the main Orc unit possibly could have killed off the other Horrors, but you'd almost certainly lose the Arrer Boys and the main block was in serious danger.

I think your opponent played much too conservatively. Having the Grave Guard block unengaged to the end of Turn 4 with the exception of an unlucky Animosity roll is just too many points not being used. I also agree that the Ogres weren't really useful, though they could have been more effective if used more aggressively.

OK, sorry for the delay!


I feel Liam had no good options CR so this was worth a try. At worst the Crypt Horrors slow me down as they die and losing them would not be catastrophic.


Ostensibly, the one on my left was more destructive. That flank still held for some time though. On my right, the Beasts won quickly but it cost them a turn of movement and clearly that made a difference.


If we’d got one more turn in Rod I would probably have lost either the Arrers or (shudder) the main block. On the other hand the Beasts would have destroyed the Crypt Horrors and Skeletons, then scored a bonus 5 TP’s for holding that table quarter (secret mission). A sixth turn and I am very likely in trouble.


I agree completely.


Starkly, no the Arrers probably aren’t worth it. Their shooting achieved little and instead of working as a nice, disciplined combat support unit their wild aggression was a real headache for me! They remain Orcs I suppose. Against elves though, the shooting might be useful and I’m inclined to keep them in, if only because I love the models! Competitively, I should probably drop them and use their points to upgrade the main block to Savage Orcs but it’s a bit late for that in hobby terms.


Curu Olannon once said that he considered Ld 10 essential and I’m starting to agree with him. The one-point difference from Ld 9 cost me the Trolls here and the main block Game 1 at Milton Keynes. The crazy thing is, the Standard of Discipline is the one big compensation I have for eschewing Savage Orcs and I’m not taking it! I brought Razor Standard instead just to spend 45pts of Core and that’s no good.

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This is of course the best reason to take them. You've done a nice job on them, so I can definitely see the reason for keeping them in, especially considering that you don't have a huge pile of O&G models lying around.

I think this is a bit like the S6 vs S7 discussion Seredain often had. It's not that big a difference on paper. But when the difference does come in to play it is often a game changer. And as such, it's probably where math-hammer deviates from actual gaming experience. I think that for a list to reliably perform at a top level in tournaments you're correct. It might only make a real difference in one game out of 3, but in a tournament that can mean the difference between first and second place.

For non-tournament games, I think LD9 is good enough, assuming you have overall high LD across your army.

Rod

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Thanks Rod.


It’s very army-dependent isn’t it? For example several armies are almost or entirely Immune to Psychology, which makes a big difference.

Conclusion

So I had three enjoyable games and won two of them, not bad. As usual for Mark’s Champions of Destiny events it was a good tournament. Good to catch up with some familiar faces and meet a few new ones. I look forward to facing equally interesting armies and opponents at future events!

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So I finished my Trolls:

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Yeah, LD is a funny thing. For some armies it's a big deal, for others it doesn't factor at all. There's the completely immune to psychology armies (with their own drawbacks). But you also have Lizardmen who in general don't care about LD either. Elves are somewhere in the middle, and then you have O&G at the far end of the spectrum.

I somehow always find it funny that skaven, who in the fluff should have pretty much the worst LD across the board in general are as reliable as elves...

But it's not just race either. Play style and army play a big role as well. If you're running a very mobile army who spreads out then the LD of individual units becomes a lot more important then if you're running a more compact and defensive army. Then you have a much easier time to stay in general and / or BSB range. It's one of the reasons I like Phoenix Guard. With their LD9 they can take care of themselves if the BSB / General is elsewhere.

Of course, the importance of general and BSB also switches depending on the army. If you're running a high LD army, then BSB is more valuable then the general. Going from LD8 -> 9 does less then rerolling the 8.

I think this is the main reason to play WH (and games in general of course). It's about having a good time with nice people. And seeing some great armies on the table.


They rocks!



Sorry, couldn't help myself. But they are great

Rod

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