Ulthuan

I guess the question is, Rod, where would we deploy the Shadow Warriors? Just over 12" from the Seekers is risky because if I win turn one they charge and could well destroy the SW's. So back a bit maybe but how far back to be safe, considering an average charge of 18 1/2"? The other is, I didn't Vanguard very far because of the threat of charge from the Reavers. The 20" March was more significant.


I could be wrong but I think my opponent looks at my army, works out he's better at range and that I must come to him. This is correct. The issue is, the manner in which I come to him. We're pretty much deployed at a diagonal from each other and that favours me because as said I can attack without worrying too soon about World Dragon. Curu, when playing a similarly defensive HE list asked an interesting question. In what circumstances does the sheer power of World Dragon vs Daemons let you reverse your usual defensive strategy and go on the attack? You have to watch out for fast Daemon units bypassing the Banner unit and picking off your support. But here, I lack some of my usual fast, harder-hitting elements (Daemon Prince, Fiends) though I do have the Ambushing Flesh Hounds. It would have been interesting to see a HE deployment to tee up aggression.


The advantage of this of course, would have been that there are no combat threats on my left to exploit the gap left there. I'm at an early advantage in the fighting but these solid phalanxes bearing down on me would certainly be an issue. An evenly poised game from there perhaps, my deployment advantage balancing out the power of World Dragon.

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The problem with the HE list here is that he has no way to make you do what it wants you to do. Which means he's leaving success up to your skill as a general. Which is not a good strategy in my view. His ranged threats are not such that they force you to fast action. It's not a full on bow-line or dwarven cannon gunline. So, you can move up more or less at your leisure. Yes, you'll lose stuff going in. But nothing that can't be compensated by some well picked combats.

If his deployment had been different it would have been a completely different ballgame. If he would have placed the WL unit on the other hand of his battle line then he would have been correct by not moving. That basically would have left you with either stay still and get shot to bits or move and run into a 2+ wardsave, S6 unit. Neither is a good prospect. In such a case, the HE player would force your hand. Now, the threat is still there, but it's too distant to do much. The longer it stays in place the fewer turns there are left to make a difference. And if you do manage to get on his flank (his left, from your pov right) you can gather enough VP to secure a small win.

It's probably my playstyle, but I would have had no problem with throwing the SW under the bus. Also, that could have been set up in such a way that while you could charge the SW, the seekers would have been charged in return. Also, with a deploy on the middle line, a flee (average 7'') would have taken them to just over 19'' away. By no means an easy charge, even with a M10 swiftstride unit. It's a gamble I would have taken. It prevents the vanguard move, allows you to countercharge them in the next turn. And it has a very decent chance of leading to a failed charge, with matching shuffle forward. All for a single SW unit.

In the end, it feels like he has given you the initiative. By playing / deploying differently he could have put you on the back foot from the start. Now, he can still win, but you're the one dictating the game. A much better position to be in.

Rod

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Ha! I'd want to get those 2 shredding machines into combat as soon as possible, if I were him. He's unlikely to lose them, and they need to start earning points quick. You seem to be doing good on that far right flank - there's some easy points there hopefully. Perhaps that wood will keep you covered from shooting/magic.

Will this turn into a skirmish, with both of you exchanging chaff and fearing to commit the main units? Lets see!

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Exactly Rod. I got my opponent to commit the crucial drops before I did.


Certainly an interesting option.


Agreed. I can (and did) mess him around in deployment with fast flank drops, the threat of Ambushing Flesh Hounds etc.. But the bottom line is that Lion unit should at worst be central, which changes things considerably.


It's true RE. I won't be able to chew through the Phoenix Guard quickly enough with the Lions flanking them.


And so...


HE Turn Two

Inevitably, the HE line swung around, White Lions and Phoenix Guard advancing into the centre. My opponent Withered the Beasts and shot two wounds off them, though not with quite the destructive effect the photo implies!



Daemon Turn Two

The Flesh Hounds failed to arrive. Not messing around, I charged the Shadow Warriors with the Flamers. The Seekers made a wide circuit of the wood to eyeball the RBT. Skulltaker's boys advanced to threaten the Spears and the Beasts moved up in support. Blue Fire killed three of the remaining Reavers and the Skillcannon finished off the wounded RBT on the hill. Combat stuck.

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Sad to see the Beasts taking wounds, but learning you didn't lose 3/4 of the unit in that turn was a relief!
Hopefully the Bloodletters can hold their own, at least you're forcing the enemy into some movement on your terms - any chance to exploit that?

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We're High Elves RE, should be rooting for my opponent! More on this in the future. You've been spending too much time with those Skullcrushers!




Even HE Spears give them trouble but I was hopeful Skulltaker would turn the tables. Punch-up to come!


HE Turn Three

The Spears went for it and charged the Bloodletters. Archers Reformed to target the marauding Seekers. The combat blocks Marched further into the battlefield. My opponent got a juicy 6v5 magic phase and with +4 vs my +2, powered Mindrazor through. How I missed my scroll! Shooting however was rubbish. Predictably, nine Bloodletters bit the dust. They fought back killing five elves but a bad Daemonic Instability roll saw them banished with a sulphurous smell. The victorious Spears Reformed to face the Beasts. The fight in the wood ground on.

Daemon Turn Three

The Flesh Hounds came on behind the depleted Reavers. The Seekers charged the remaining RBT. The Beasts thought better of eating Mindrazor and held back. Magic was Scrolled and the Skillcannon whiffed. The Daemonettes destroyed the RBT while the other combat continued. That was all we had time for!

6-1 win.

The High Elves push forwards but too late...



...to impact the hard fighting on the right.

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Oh, I have Though in the coming battle I'll be leaving them to a friend I'm introducing to the hobby. I think he'll...enjoy himself



That hurt. The fact that it was Spearelves only adds insult to injury, but thats just how Mindrazor works. After such a phase damage control is all you can really do. Still, thanks for the report. Oh, and...Ulthuan shall never fall!

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Congrats on the win. It ran a bit as expected. I'm wondering what would have happened had you gotten a full game in. In part his push came a bit late for the time you had. But he was also feeding you units one at a time, which is usually not a good idea.

The mindrazor hurt. It happens. A scroll is a big help, though no guarantee that you can block it (there's always IF, but also facing two large magic phases in a row tends to ruin the fun). Being a bit more threatening in the early turns can also draw out a scroll early.

It also looks like you took a bit more advantage of the victory rules of the tournament. To win, you needed to simply take out enough units. Didn't matter if they were support units or big deathstar units. You could safely ignore the WL and PG and still gather enough points from the support stuff to secure a big win. Nice playing.

Rod

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Thanks guys.


Nothing wrong with some good, clean fun!



Big phases are usually not so bad for this because that means I get five or six dispel dice. I usually bring 3-4 Channels, so often generate an extra die, giving me a fighting chance to dispel a 6-diced cast. Dreaded 13th is similar and I've found an opponent generally gets a juicy 6-dice spell through once per game. Daemons have inbuilt advantages (army-wide Ward, ITP etc) which mitigate this of course. In the grand scheme of things I'd still take the Scroll over these, it's so good. Quite right it can be easily misused though. I had a HE Civil War game last year where I scrolled Pit of Shades on my Frostheart. A Teclis-fuelled (but not IF) Dwellers later blew my main block apart!


I won 6-1 of course and I can't see him pulling that back, even with six turns. He shoots up the Seekers and I run the survivors behind the wood if I can. Flamers should beat the Shadow Warriors, again, can he shoot my last guy? He can probably save his Reavers but that's not a given. I've (deliberately) killed both RBT which really hampers him. If I'd known we were getting more turns in I'd have moved the Beasts 1" from the Spears. He has to charge in turn four and hope he gets Mindrazor through. Even then, Mark of Nurgle and Regen probably restrict him to killing one Beast and my guys likely match that in wounds. The key thing is that his blocks don't have charges on in turn four, meaning each is likely to kill only one of my units by the end of the game. Not enough and it just emphasises their mistake in not Marching aggressively turn one.


See above of course. To some extent though, this strategy was forced on me by World Dragon. I also think this VP system slows everything down because it changes the basis on which you make decisions. In general I often find myself having to pick support off and not having the resources to tackle Deathstars. A by-product of MMU perhaps but Seredain always seemed to get those big points in the end!

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I've only just realized I'd actually won, despite the Bloodletters getting gutted

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Yeah, it's funny how losing well over 400 VP's (in old money) didn't matter!




Flamers

I was really pleased with how these guys did in the first two games. Not only did they shoot effectively, they got stuck in too! I really like them and can't bring myself to leave them out. Happily, they are good against elves. I feel it really helps to have a unit with BS shooting for when you can't reach things with charges and when your magic dice are either ineffective or needed elsewhere. The fact that they can fight a bit too adds to their threat range and flexibility because they can get into good shooting positions (with M6 Skirmish) without fearing light enemy charges.


Game Three - Ogres

Tyrant
Slaughtermaster
BSB
Firebelly, Scroll

11 Ironguts, FC

4 Mournfangs, Std
2 Sabretusks

2 Ironblasters

Thoughts on the match-up?

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Well not much free points here, apart from the Sabretusks. Looks like a cheesed-out version of the list Prince of Spires faced in his last report - that Deathstar is no joke! I'm afraid I have to say the Ogres have an advantage here, though I'm sure your experience with the Daemons might turn things around

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Before the tournament I vaguely considered Ogres and surmised "It's 2000pts, so that'll be a smaller Gutstar than normal". What I failed to appreciate was that at 2500 their Core tends to be 9 Ironguts and 6 Ogres or so. At 2000 he simply drops the Ogres more or less. This actually helps him because they're not very good. Plus my opponent felt the need to add a Tyrant to the usual three characters. If he runs into Purple Sun he's in real trouble because he has no other place to sensibly deploy characters. Obviously though, that's a very hard unit to kill. He also has the two Ironblasters (so pleased I left the DP at home) and Mournfangs I suspected of rocking the crucial Dragonhide Banner.


This is it. In addition to being a sledgehammer of a list, it's very well written for the VP system. It has so few points to give up. My saving grace is table quarters but that's what the Sabretusks are for. My job is clearly to pick these and the Ironblasters off but I miss the reliability of an elf shooting phase to do this.


Most kind but I agree, +1 match-up for Ogres.

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I agree with both your analysis's. It's a tough list, even before factoring in the VP system. The normal tactic vs this kind of list for me would be to throw a bunch of low points units at it and kill the rest (which is enough of a challenge). Now that's just throwing points at it.

Playing for table quarters is tough, since you don't have that many units either. Especially given that some of them will be busy fending off the gutstar and other units.

Your only advantage here is that with the low unit count your opponent will have to commit important units early on. Still, with M6 on the gutstar and long range shooting, he can simply deploy centrally and then go in whatever direction needed. I would perhaps consider a split deployment. Refuse the centre and deploy on both extreme flanks. He can only really go after one side, giving you the table quarters on the other side. And it potentially lets you pick off the weaker units.

Still, I think it's more +2 to the ogres then just +1... Interested to see how this goes. I'm predicting it'll be more aggressive then previous game. Still, your relatively slow play might work in your advantage here. Only getting in 4 turns means the gutstar will have trouble getting more then 2 units if you play right.

Rod

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Yes, it's a pain Rod. Another way to play it is try to isolate the fighting units and kill one. Tricky though because my Plaguebearers are not quite big enough to take a charge and not care.


For me, the key thing is I don't have a clear advantage in removing light stuff at range.


This makes a lot of sense.


As said Rod, the laid-back nature of the tournament (plus the complication of the scoring system) dictated this. It had overrun so we had maybe 2hrs and my opponent took cigarette breaks. This was fine, it wasn't the ETC. I've played games where I could see that the game not finishing would benefit me and made concessions because of this. For example, at SCGT once a Skaven opponent rolled a 2 on a misfire for his Warp Lightning Cannon and said "Can't fire next turn". I knew full well that it was actually "Blow up" but let it go to counterbalance the not finishing which favoured me.

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Pre-game and Deployment

Slaughtermaster: Stubborn buff, Toughness buff, Regen buff.
Firebelly: Fireball, Piercing Bolts of Burning

Horrors: Pink Fire
Herald: Blue Fire, Infernal Gateway
General: Fleshy Abundance

I forgot to take any photos until the end of turn one, so I'll post these to shed some light:



On the right, a Sabretusk lurks in the wood. Centre shot are the Mournfangs, who had basically Marched straight forward from their deployment zone. To their left is the Gutstar, which had wheeled slightly towards the centre (the grey terrain on the left blocked movement, we'd agreed). Behind it an Ironblaster, both this and it's twin had started behind a central wall. My Beasts and Seekers are still where deployed, the Plaguebearers on my right had advanced slightly.



I deployed Skillcannon and Furies centrally, out of shot. Here we see the Horrors, slightly in advance of their deployed position. The Flamers and Bloodletters to their left had moved up more aggressively. My opponent's only unit opposite these was the second Sabretusk, in a wood.

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Daemon Turn One

As shown, wary of the Mournfangs' charge, I edged the Plaguebearers forward and stayed put with Seekers and Beasts. It was only after this that we resolved that the grey terrain blocked movement, I'd also been nervous of the Gutstar. My centre held while the Horrors edged into range. Flamers had to advance further to achieve this and the Bloodletters followed up. Magic saw Gateway put two wounds on an Ironblaster and one on the casting Herald. The Skillcannon missed the Mournfangs but the Flamers wounded the Sabretusk on my left.

Ogre Turn One

The Gutstar Marched into the centre with the Mournfangs advancing to their right. The Ironblasters moved out and destroyed the Skillcannon, annoying but less key than if I'd brought the Monster Lord. The Sabretusks headed for cover. Magic achieved little.

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The game itself seems to develop as expected so far - the Guts going for the kill from the start. Unlucky to lose the cannon.

Nice battle mat, BTW!

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Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy

Indeed, game starting as expected. Losing the skill cannon first turn is a shame. It really helps having a powerful ranged threat. It keeps things honest and could have helped with table quarters etc. Still, to be expected vs two cannons. I would have done the same thing as Ogre player I think. First deal with the biggest ranged threat, after that handle the rest.

I'm curious to see how it will turn out. I hope for you that you have one or two surprises up your sleeve...


I didn't mean that you should or would play slow to gain an advantage. It was more an observation that playing slower would potentially give a benefit here. Something that can be generalised I think. If you have the upper hand you want the game to last as many turns as possible, since that gives you the most time to exploit that advantage. And if you're the underdog then playing fewer turns can be beneficial since it gives a bigger chance of conserving points.

Rod

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Indeed, he comes forward, I go for a quiet envelopment.


A setback, for sure. I'd hoped to take out one of the Mournfangs, which would make tackling them easier.


I know Rod. But sometimes players do and I want to put out there that most don't. I and other slow players, also tend to do more than usual to mitigate it, like not taking breaks, simplifying our armies, learning them so they're faster to use etc..As I've said, the games where four turns or less have been played are always where both players (and often tournament conditions) have been a contributory factor.

Daemon Turn Two

My forces on the left continued their advance. The Flesh Hounds arrived behind the Ogre centre. On the right Nurgle held, while the Seekers bodly rushed forwards. Gateway was scrolled and the Flamers whiffed.

Ogre Turn Two

The depleted Ironblaster moved into the left wood, while it's brother turned to face Khorne's dogs and was joined by the wounded Sabretusk. Both Gutstar and Mournfangs Reformed and moved into the centre of the battlefield. The second Sabretusk slipped past the Seekers. Grapeshot did little but a maxed-out Fireball destroyed the Furies.

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Daemon Turn Three

Flesh Hounds charged Ironblaster. Bloodletters charged the other one. Flamers and Horrors inched onto terrain to escape the Gutstar, the Herald leaving his unit for safety. The Seekers swept round the centre. The Beasts advanced. Magic failed and shooting had no good targets, so I passed. Skulltaker did his job and broke the Ironblaster, which was Pursued and caught. The doggies took a wound for none in return though, so that stuck.







Ogre Turn Three

The central Sabretusk charged in to help the surviving Ironblaster. The other one snuck forward to hide behind a lip on the large building in front of my deployment zone. The big guys meanwhile, pushed round to threaten my left. The Slaughtermaster buffed up his unit. The Flesh Hounds lost combat badly but one model hung on.

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Things are looking quite good - 2 Ironblasters engaged rather early on, those are the VPs you can get. How are you feeling in with regard to containing the Ironguts at this point in time?

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Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy

I agree with RE.Lee. You're not in a bad spot. Realistically, the points you could get are the Ironblasters, the sabre tusks and possibly the mournfangs. You're in a good place for the ironblasters and as long as the gutstar is only threatening stuff then they're not actually killing stuff. Another advantage of having the ironblasters engaged is that they can't shoot while they're in combat, giving your opponent less battlefield control (which is important now that your own cannon has also headed back to the warp).

Rod

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I agree, good to pin down the cannons. Though I've lost a couple of units already and more are in danger. Not too worried about the Ironguts themselves, it's the Fire magic I'm concerned about.


Yeah, I've kind of fended off the prospect of being bulldozed off the table. Now it comes down to who can pick off the odd VP's.

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Daemon Turn Four

The Seekers charged the Ironblaster in the rear. My Tzeentch units on the left backed off further, while the Beasts advanced into the top right table quarter. We knew by now this would be the last turn, so I passed on magic, it would not achieve anything material. Ditto shooting. Almost no damage was done in the multiple combat but my +3 for Rear Charge was decisive. Ironblaster and Sabretusk both broke and were run down.



Ogre Turn Four

Mournfangs charged Horrors. Gutstar advanced into spell range. Sabretusk dodged round the castle into my deployment zone for the bonus VP. Winds were 9v5 and I let a 4-diced Piercing Bolts on the Flamers through. Amazingly it's D3 S4 hits did three wounds and a 5-diced Fireball beat my roll and finished off the unit. Gutted. The Mournfangs crushed the Horrors and we were done.

5-6 loss.

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Bit unlucky with the last magic phase, but still a small loss was perhaps the most you could have gotten from this match up. Thanks for sharing!

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Thanks dude. Looking at the photo I'm not sure if the Firebelly was in arc to target my last Flesh Hound instead, which would obviously have been a more likely path to the VP.

Debrief

So why did I lose? Looking at the lists I agree I was at a disadvantage but in my view, not an insurmountable one. How could I have played better? Firstly, I might have tried to double-team the Mournfangs with my Nurgle units. The reason I didn't was that we hadn't agreed that the grey terrain blocked movement by that stage. I've not seen that before but my opponent thought it should and it didn't handicap me so I agreed to it. If it hadn't blocked movement the Gutstar was a major obstacle to that plan. Maybe I could've used the Seekers as a redirector and approached the Mournfangs that way.

On the whole though, the policy of avoiding the big units and going after the support worked reasonably well. Those big units only got into combat with one of mine. Magic was more of an issue, I lost two units to it. My opponent's scroll was a pain and towards the end I ran out of spell targets I could hope to kill. But my mobile and more numerous combat units hunted down the single model VP targets successfully. Except for the second Sabretusk. It might have been better to split my Tzeentch units between the flanks to give me ranged attacks on both wings. As it was I couldn't catch it with my pure combat units.

Strictly speaking, I should have pointed out that the second Sabretusk had to stay 1" from the building. Here he would have been exposed to a charge from my troops and would not have been able to score an extra VP at the end. But I've just found out that's in the rulebook FAQ, not the rulebook, there's no way, with hindsight, I could have quickly found it at the time. There had also been quite a few rules disagreements and just differing ideas about playing the game. At some stage you have to decide where to argue and where not to. We both had a good attitude and wanted a fair game, we just had differing viewpoints. At the end of the day, this was a friendly, laid-back event within a small 8th edition community. Having a good, amicable game was, in the final analysis, more important than winning.

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Or he would have repositioned it in such a way that you still would't have been able to charge it of course.

In the end, I think you played well given the matchup. You could have done better. But you managed the main goal, which was keep the big units from scoring points and go after the little stuff. Magic happens and can swing both ways. You need a bit of luck there.

On the terrain, it shows you should discuss what's what before the game starts (something I forget often enough by the way). A valuable lesson to learn in its own right. I have had similar experiences in the past where I mentally misinterpreted terrain new to me and what it could do. It's small things, but it can be something like leave a charge open to my opponent or misjudge a line of approach.


This. It's a game. And while you play to win, it's meant to be fun.

Rod

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The key thing here Rod is that I had units either side of the building to threaten charges. So he could have preserved the Sabretusk but he couldn't have got it into position to claim the bonus VP for it finishing the game in my deployment zone.


Thanks Spires. It was a good close game, it just fell on the wrong side of the line.


I think the issue here is that I was in the tournament mind-set and my opponents weren't. I believe we agreed that terrain as Hard Cover and an obstacle. But my opponent obviously interpreted that as 'blocks movement' whereas to me an Obstacle has a very specific meaning in 8th edition. I've never seen such terrain completely blocking movement in a tournament before. But maybe I need to re-adjust to a new, less literal, tournament meta.

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Magic

For this tournament I dropped my Level 4, reasoning that the lowered points and my multiple Hero casters would cope. How did this go?

Game One was fine because my opponent just had a scroll caddy. Soul Quench was an issue but not huge. In return, I made good use of Curse of the Leper. No problem.

Game two I faced a Lvl 4 + Lvl 2 + Scroll, better than my phase. The biggest issue was being unable to stop Mindrazor, normally disastrous. Here though, the VP system worked in my favour because 431 in Old Money gave my foe just a single point.

Game Three was Lvl 3 + Lvl 2 + Scroll. Again tricky but the lack of ranged spells on the Slaughtermaster reduced the problem. I still came off worse though and found a lack of good targets towards the end, a known issue for a phase heavily reliant on Lore of Tzeentch.

One popular set-up is to combine all-Horror Core with double Metal Heralds. Not only does this give the pick of two Lores, it also yields six Channels, which helps a lot with defence. I can't match this phase without bringing a Lord. Perhaps my best magical set-up would be to replace the Bloodletters with Daemonettes and Skulltaker with a Slaanesh Lvl 1. That gives me four Channels and five spells, probably defaulting to Miasma as a good all-round pick. Interesting to test if I play 2000pts again.

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