Ulthuan

Hi!
Following the successful Server transfer, we have resumed the debate about a possible common website grouping present Ulthuan, Asrai and Druchii websites.
See the thread What do we want the future of Druchii.net to be?

Here is the part for which I would like to sense the feeling here in Ulthuan.

New forum, associated with a Facebook account, same name.

Name: elfwargames.net, acronym EWG.net
Note: other names have been proposed, I like them less.
elfbattles.net, elvenstrategy.com, wargameselves.com
elvesforum.com, elves-online.com, elvescompendium.com, elfkin.net, elvesonline.net, fantastyelves.net
elvennations.com, elvennation.com, elfrealm.net, elfnation.com, elfkin.net
ElfMiniatures.net, fantasyelves.com, elveskingdom.com, pointyears.net

Main forums:
1. Painting & Modelling.
- all combined (1 forum).
2. Aelves in AoS.
- subdivided in fluff and gaming (2 forums).
3. Elves in T9A.
- subdivided in background, Dread Elves gaming, Highborn Elves gaming and Sylvan Elves gaming (4 forums).
4. Elves in WFB (all editions)
- Asrai, Druchii, Ulthuan (3 forums + zillion sub-forums as today).
5. Elves KoW
- no subdivision (1 forum).
6. Elves in other games (BB, WM, 40k...)
- subdivided by game (3 forums + other games).
7. Website miscellaneous (everything not model, fluff or gaming).

Total 7 main forums, 15 main sub-forums.
We will see when more sub-forums become necessary.

Identity:
Some sub-forums are dedicated to some factions.
Additionally, if technically feasible, we should leave the user the option to select among 4 atmospheres (blue/green/purple/gray) which would influence how the screen looks.
We should also let the user select which forum are visible and which ones are not seen on his screen.

Milestones:
1. (today) Tell our intention to Asrai and Ulthuan. Ask them if they have objections. Take reply into account, except if it causes delays.
2. (month-Daeron) Build the new site.
3. (month-Daeron) Migrate D.net and A.org into that site.
4. (week or month-who?) Create FB account.
5. (month-them) When ready, U.net joins.

-=-=-
Please reply what are your thought about this plan?
Thank you.
Calisson (Admin at druchii.net)

_________________
Druchii.net

[color=#004000]We would very much like to have your ideas on this proposition as well. Would you continue to visit such forum? Any thoughts on the subject?[/color]


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My personal thoughts on the subject:

In general, I am not personally opposed to some kind of merger of the sites, but will it do what we would like it to (stabilize and eventually grow the community)?

Name: to be honest, only pointyears.net has any flair to it. What is stopping us from using the old domains we have now. Cultural heritage and all that... (We have an obligation to keep Ulthuan afloat, we can't just go to elfwargames.net from it, sorry!). Adding fourth domain to it should not be too costly.

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Rainbows painting blog
Secret Santa 2016

This is largely inevitable. The combined painting and modeling (for example) will even be quite helpful I think.



I agree fully here. What is the cost on keeping the domain and directing it to the new site? Last I checked it wouldn't be much, but it's been a couple years.

As things stand we're getting around 3-12 posts a day, depending. A far cry from our glory days but it's something. It's been that way for a while and is sustainable. We have some regular posters and also some old hands who check in now and then (see today for example). Occasionally someone new posts.The question for us with a merged site is would we retain that level of posting? The above posters know who we are, where their threads are, what we represent.

A lot of it boils down to content. Painting and Modelling is our strongest suit. We have some 8th edition gaming blogs, now and then someone posts a 9th Age army list for discussion or asks questions re AoS. General chit-chat is also good and necessary. Would a merged site actually increase the content our posters generate and if so how? That question applies equally to Druchii and Asrai I suggest.

It all depends on guys being motivated to paint and to play and then to talk about it.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001

I think it's borderline necessary/inevitable and I'd support it - or at any rate wouldn't reject it - but I'll defer to the more regular users views.

Ulthuan was brilliant, and is still going, but honestly it's lost a lot of the magic it once had, and this is largely I think a reverse snowball effect - our best stuff is user-generated and as the scene shattered our user base fragmented with it.

We're still going with some dedicated posters, some blogs, painting, a little T9A, but I think more integration would help. We could capitalise on the great painting stuff and share that across the three platforms, with that being the most shareable content.

But other stuff is interesting too. For example, over at T9A we have seperate HBE, SE and DE forums, but we do not have an elven subforum...and a lot of the discussions happening particularly in the HBE/DE sections (which aren't mitigated by trees) are happening in parallel; there's potentially a niche here for an elf-level discussion.

In any case, I suspect a merge of this sort would increase traffic. I also like the idea of retaining ulthuan as a domain name, even if only as a legacy which redirects, but at my most brutal I would say it is the content and the community which would draw me in, and ulthuan by any other name would still taste so glorious to me .

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The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support

I have mixed feelings about it.

Merging with the other elves forums would probably bring new life to Ulthuan but...

I know, I am not one of the most active members, but Ulthuan to me is more than the number of daily posts. In a sense it is the last remains of 20 years of gaming and passion wiped out by AoS. I don't want to see Ulthuan fade away, blended in a more generic environment (nothing against the other forums but it I fear it wouldn't feel like home).

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Stargazer. Master of the Deep Sky.

Thanks for the replies so far.

About the urgency to act:
If we base the necessity to do something on the number of daily posts, it appears more urgent for Asrai and Druchii than for Ulthuan. You have the luxury to wait. We don't. We won't.
This is why you can read Milestone 5. When ready, U.net joins.

This said, I do not want to abuse the advantage of moving first and leave you guys no other choice than to accept the decision we have made.
This is the reason for the present discussion. Even if you do not move immediately, better make the future home look as best as possible as a home for you.

So far, I read the suggestion for pointy-ears.net (with a dash in order not to be read point/years.net). Note that it was considered indeed to keep 4 domain names, not a single one.

_________________
Druchii.net

I personally think it's a bad idea. At leas from a U.net perspective.

From what I've read and seen so far, we're the most active of the three elven forums. I think the main reason for that activity is a handful of long time members who generate or comment on a lot of the content. One of the important reasons they do so here instead of somewhere else is that it's U.net and that they have been a long time member. Moving to a new and merged forum mean that drops away, it gives a reset of the scene and we will have to compete with all other forums out there without the advantage of our legacy. It would be like GW releasing AoS and hoping our members follow along without giving them any reason to do so.

Since we're the most active of the three, we are bound to lose more then we gain. Just as an example, say that all forums lose 50% of their active members (which I feel is actually a realistic number). And suppose (fictional numbers) that we have 10 active members, D.net has 5 and A.org has 2. After a merger this would give a total of 8 or 9 active members. A win for D.net and A.org, but a loss for us.

Another problem that arises is that we'll be competing with much more active forums for the attention of users. The forum will then be a fairly generic forum with some Elf focus. What is the distinguishing factor compared to T9A forum or warhammer.org.uk? What is our unfair advantage? I don't see one. We'll be a small, generic wargaming forum trying to compete with other generic but more active and bigger forums. It's a very hard fight to win and I'm not sure it's one we should try to fight.

All in all, I don't see much upside and a lot of potential downside. So I'm against a merger. Which is not to say that nothing can be or should be done. Creating a facebook account for U.net or for elven forums in general is a good idea. But that is something that can be done without actually merging. Other, similar cross forum activities can be tried without actually merging.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.

I think this forum is struggling, perhaps less so than the others, but nevertheless. Combining the three forums will at least increase traffic and with that, perhaps the site will attract some new or older players who just lurk or visit occasionally.

Perspective is important here. It's true that things are much reduced from before. But that's a given, the fracturing of the gaming community ensured that and pushed people to coalesce around sites dedicated to particular games. The point is that had we not put a lot of work in for the past year, Ulthuan would now be silent. Things are as good as we could have reasonably expected them to be. I agree with Elugin that legacy is important but so is at least some activity.

I appreciate Druchii's point of view and that the new site will most likely go ahead, that's a good thing for everyone. My suggestion would be to theme it Dark/Wood Elf, maybe play the 'shadows' angle. In Tolkien for example, 'Dark Elf' was a very broad term but contrasted fairly directly with 'High Elf'. I can't help thinking of how Sea Elves kind of merged with High Elves. Then make the Facebook page a joint venture of the new site and Ulthuan? We're already seeing cooperation with Aicanor's successful invitation on Druchii to our Secret Santa. Maybe the new site could launch comparable initiatives and post invitation here? Irrespective, it will need a lot of work and inventive ways to stimulate activity. It needs to attract guys who will post content somehow.

Of course it would be entirely reasonable for the new site to launch as 'all-elf'. But like Rod, I believe it would see less HE activity than Ulthuan, not more, partly for the legacy and identity reasons cited by Elugin. We have something here worth keeping and developing. The position is somewhat different for Druchii and (especially) Asrai, despite their rich histories, so it arguably makes more sense for them to move forwards together and then cooperate with us for mutual benefit.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001

If the merger were to move forwards, could some of the concerns expressed here be addressed through technomancy?

e.g. different skins, retaining domain names, potentially having an interface setting which is 'one and pan-elf only' (i.e. ulthuan plus shared painting, druchii plus shared painting, etc)?

I'm not clear in my head how much change could be done whilst also providing the option of presenting little/no change option, if that makes sense? I'm sort of wondering I think about a heirarchy (which forums lend themselves to), to which you could engage at different levels and potentially see the full 'new' site or the 'old' current sites, and which may display with either url

...would something like that be useful Rod?
...would it be technically possible Cal?

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support

Different skins plus choices of what forums you see are part of the original proposition. I believe there are ways to mitigate most of the disadvantages of the merger. I for one would also like HE/WE/DE tags in painting section. I am also convinced we should keep old domains (is it technically possible to link them with different schemes/skins?).
But it still needs one 'non GW' domain in the future and it should be something that is not boring.
It would be good to hear what is technically possible and if that would be acceptable.

_________________
Rainbows painting blog
Secret Santa 2016

Given all the domains are on the same server, the following looks to be technically possible, if beyond my coding skill:

Each domain having it's own files, and theme*. When you register from a given domain you lock in that theme (changeable) for your account on all three. When someone registers they are put in a group that then shows the user the forums for that domain only, with the option to subscribe to the other ones if needed. Some of these will be common across domains (P+M for example).

*I don't know if it is possible to restrict the view to certain sub-forums for users that are logged OUT. I doubt it. I suspect all the forums would be visible to users logged out.

That way each of the three existing sites keeps a lot of identity, and the new merged site gets the shared identity.

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Ricold, Not site owner any more, largely absent. PM me if you want me. PM Prince of Spires if you need the head Loremaster.

Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's a good idea. From a usability perspective it will be very hard to make it understandable what's going on and why.

Just imagine the following. A new time player gets into wargames and likes elves. Searches on Google for elven forums. He finds 4, all with a bunch of articles. Somehow they all roughly have the same content. Then he decides to create an account on one of them Let's say D.net (since he finds the url easiest to remember or likes black). suddenly, half the forums disappear after he signed up (though chances are he doesn't notice, since who remembers all the finer details of a site he just joined). After some time he's over in the P&M section and has a discussion with a member. That member points him to an internal tactics discussion going on, which happens to take place on the U.net part of the site. User can open the link and read the topic no problem and can probably even reply. But then the next day when he tries to find the topic back, he can't find it anywhere in the list (since the U.net part of the site is hidden). Somehow only the direct link in his P&M topic works. Also he, presumably, can navigate from the topic to the forum where it's located (since the breadcrumb at the top of the page will take him there) but somehow he can't navigate down to it starting from the top of the forum.

The only result from having a merged forum where only parts are visible to some members will only result in confusion and in having to explain to each member why they can't see all of it at once. It's not really an option from a user experience point of view.

So, a merged forum will show all sub forums with only a different skin if we so desire. Which still means essentially starting a complete new forum (with a handful of members when starting out) which has no (in my opinion) unique selling points compared to other generic WH forums. Why would someone interested in general wargames (with a slight elf focus) visit us instead of TWF or T9A forum?

I think we can first try other options working together to create more activity. Options which are less destructive and easier to undo if things turn out to have disastrous effects. I'm sure no-one at GW thought people would simply stop playing WH when they launched AoS. And once they had launched the way they did there was no way back. Let's not make that mistake. I can see the reasons for a merger from a D.net and A.org point of view. But for U.net there isn't much reason to do it and a lot of reasons not to do it.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.

New players would find one forum, not four. The old domains are a nod towards old members. There need not be any confusion as all the options are presented at registration (or first login for old members via preset message). It can be made to work. The greatest challenge is still the same: generating content. It takes a lot of work to make practically new site work smoothly and an additional effort to rethink what the site is supposed to be. This si not going to work with nothing but merging old forums. Do we, even combined, have enough resources to attempt this. I still think it is better option in the long run, but only if we are sure we can do this.

This is a good point. Let's see what works first. I don't believe it takes a month to create a good new site anyway. We can work on ideas as we go.

_________________
Rainbows painting blog
Secret Santa 2016

I don't want to sound ironic or with bad intentions, but if D.net and A.org are struggling why they don't join U.net with newly formed subforums for those races?
Ulthuan was homeland of ALL WH elves, so they all could find place here.

"You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll (U.net and A.org) join us
And the world (Elves) will be as one"

That's actually an interesting idea. I might just suggest that to the admins of D.net and A.org

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.

It seems that Asrai has already merged with Druchii, if you google 'Asrai' you will get asrai.druchii.net domain which points to the new forum.

Yes and no. Like us, A.org migrated to the D.net servers. Putting them on a subdomain was easier during this move then to immediately move from the whole domain. Same happened to us. However, it seems like where we got our U.net domain they didn't do this for A.org. Probably because their level of activity was a lot lower then ours and so it was less a priority or perhaps not worth the trouble. They're still a separate forum in the sense that they have their own login, forum software, database etc.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.

This is interesting. If we were to retain, 'Ulthuan, Home of the Elves', web address and basic structure that would help keep our existing posters. But I suggest changing forum colour, names etc to be inclusive of all elves could help DE's/WE's feel more at home. Plus I'm sure their mods and members would have some good ideas.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001

All arguments above understood.
Three visions are explored in this thread:
1. Creating a new home for all Elves, where old homes A, D and U would be brought in, along with new features.
2. No change for Ulthuan, let A and D do what they wish.
3. Let's invite A and D into present Ulthuan and let old A and D die.
What I do not understand is the long term plan for 2 and 3. How do you intend to attract new blood?

_________________
Druchii.net

In the end 3 and 1 are more or less the same thing with a different name.

There is a 4th option. Go ahead with number 1, but also leave Ulthuan as it is (the others as well possibly)- at least long enough to see if the new site managed to attract a significant amount of new blood. I've been a member here since 99ish. I doubt I'd make the move to an all new site, not because I'm opposed to a new site. But this place is a habit, a new site won't be.

When we discard the rather cheeky way of introducing the idea, options 1 and 3 are indeed the same concept with different domain name. Or names, as the domain can be redirected to another.
What I miss from all these options is a concept how to move things forward beyond the merger. That in itself is not going to increase the activity on the new forum compared to the old ones very much (well maybe in case of Asrai). If we are going to do this together in some form we really need to figure out what we want to base the new site on.
Continuing our three flavours of what is basically GW Elves with as little change to the separate sites overall as possible - with some overlap (such as Off Topic, combined P&M, General fantasy...).
Do we want to go with some game more than the others?
Do we want to create a completely new site with focus on elves in general?
Do we have resources (and people) for example to start some (elf-oriented) RPG projects for example?
...
Add your own ideas to the mix...
...
This I feel we need to have figured out before we proceed with this, not because we as Ulthuan crew do not want to cooperate (we do), but because it needs to be done to create something with a chance to survive long term and hopefully grow.

_________________
Rainbows painting blog
Secret Santa 2016

I'd observe that numbers in terms of Warhammer players can only fall from now on. Although people may come for AoS or T9A, all three sites are relics of the past (And not just in terms of Warhammer, either - look at social media).

It's up to you Elf players to decide, I was always first and foremost a Chaos player and these days I just play Warmachine.

_________________

That's pretty much my point. A new site in and of itself won't solve anything. So until there is some indication of it actually working there is no reason to get rid of this one. This one will eventually fade away, but the new one isn't immune from that either. And if it isn't done right it could fade away faster. Even at the peak most warhammer forums didn't last long.

Personally, I am more optimistic. There are still a lot of tournaments in the UK for example, they are just split between different systems. Of course that's just one metric but I feel the jury is out on the long-term.


I'm not sure that a seismic change is the best option here. As said, this forum is in reasonable shape because of a lot of effort from it's mods and members. A painting project here, a gaming blog there, a general discussion say. The difference between now and the glory days is simply scale. Because we have something, guys can feed on that for a snowball effect. For example the last week or two has been somewhat busier because people knew the potential was there. At the end of the day, people either want to paint, play and post, or they don't. It's about each and every one of us stepping up and generating content. Providing a template, saying 'hey I did this what do you think guys?' encourages others and generates feedback. Of course new initiatives can be very valuable but not IMHO as a nuclear option. We are serious about the 'Come to Ulthuan and change it' option. What if the interface was purple say? What if the mods were split equally? What if elements of Druchii and Asrai's forum structures and special features were incorporated? Bring the best bits here and we will cut to fit you.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001

As already mentioned, problem with shrinking community and low activity on all three sites is the fact
that game system and all background that existed was discontinued.
IMHO the future of Elven sites depends on few things:
- AoS development
- T9A development
- Other war gaming system development

AoS: I'm not too optimistic regarding this one, since AoS already split community and large part of old gamers
have very negative attitude toward this system (myself included). AoS background
doesn't looks to convenient. I haven't follow up properly on that but having some floating bubbles of reality
doesn't appeals to me and doesn't looks promising in terms of further development in storytelling (maybe I'm wrong).
Moreover, in AoS Elven constellation has been drastically changed, there is no more essential conflict that was defining
relationships in Elven nation and between mainly HE vs DE and later WE. All Elves are now one heterogeneous mass with some
sort of WH40K aspect classes system.There are no such flavor which was defining identity for Elves and their alignments as it was before.
AoS will likely attract new generation of gamers which won't have such insight in previous Elven history, therefore
not sure they will be too interested on specialized site, instead on some general AoS related. We might get some
portion of such player though, but I'm not sure it can change situation drastically.

T9A: personally I have huge expectations out of this project. It is continuation from previous WHFB and it looks
very promising in terms of game rules and balance. Currently there aren't background story published, but T9A team
is working seriously to develop this and first results are really good (Undying Dynasties and Sylvan Elves army books).
If they build new world accordingly and properly setup different Elven races in it, that could be good foundation for
further development and storytelling, which will have positive influence on the community.

Other war gaming system development: some games like KoW and WMH have some potential but I'm not to optimistic
they could drastically change the current status. I haven't tried KoW, but it has some pros from
hobby aspect (which is advantage comparing to other systems) and regarding game play (much practical). As far I heard it is
very simplified system and not sure I would be pleased with it. WMH is appealing to me, but simply I don't see
any potential regarding Elven development.

So, we are still in stage where main systems (T9A and AoS) are shaping itself and congregating the community.
This can be more clear by the end of next year when T9A should have stable pack of rules and background story
defined, among with new full army books developed. AoS should published new books as well to cover all factions.
Until that I believe we can't influence on growth much, but have to wait how the community will react.

At this point, to address main challenge reading growth and future of what ever Elevn forum will exist, we can start
brainstorming and put some ideas on the table.

What I think is feasible at this very moment are the few things which can shake part of the former members and make them active on forum:
- Merge three Elven nations on one place, let say on Ulthuan.net
- Announce re-union with proper background (something like....huge Druchii invasion to reclaim Nagaroth/Phoenix Crown
and Wood Elf arrival at Avelorn as chosen by the Elven gods to guard this sacred ground, so they could be
in their natural habitat and stay neutral in the conflict)
- To celebrate this event, we can organize 'Elven armies on parade' campaign where all our active members should display their troops
in its full scale, so we could have lot of activity in P&M section.
- To organize battles HE vs DE in local communities which would represent this event and making good battle reports
using lot of pictures and Battle chronicle, later on posting it in BR forum section.
- To try organize mega battle (in those communities where it is possible) to represent invasion or to recreate Battle of Finnuval Plains
- start monthly painting campaigns "Best Asur/Druchii/Asrai" where we could have positive competitive environment and where
we could vote for best looking model. To animate people to participate we can have some sort of rewarding system, either non-financial
(to establish some pointing system and special kind of site honors), or even financial system where we would have rewards in form
of miniatures or similar (we can organize budget for that by providing small donations from some members who will be willing to (myself for example).
- we can organize competition for mini-dioramas with the specific theme related to newly background development, like displays of
skirmish clashes HE vs DE, or WE vs intruders in Avelorn....
- On a long term we can try organize gaming campaign like it was previously on Ulthuan some years ago. I remember it was Sundering campaign
where players were choosing which faction it will support for Phoenix King throne. Or try organize some campaign in newly developed
background (huge Druchii invasion) where the outcome of battles will have an effect on control of Ulthuan etc...

Those are some thoughts, I believe there are much more constructive ideas which would have positive influence on the forum.
All those would require our efforts of course, but if we aren't ready for that we wouldn't be here, right?

Sry, I didn't have intention to make such long post, but can't tell all in just a few words....

A while back, we Ulthuan mods restructured to see what would fly from 8th, mods of 8th, 9th Age, AoS and (essentially) KoW. To this point 8th, 9th Age and AoS have seen at least some activity, KoW and 8th mods less so. We're considering internal changes based on that. This is the kind of review that will get carried out periodically I suspect.


These ideas I personally like. Once we've resolved the merger (or not) these are the kind of things that need to be picked up and run with, probably each led by an enthusiastic mod or member.

For any Druchii or Asrai reading. If your forums were to come here, what changes would you like to see, to reflect the new multi-elf reality?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001

Please see poll here

_________________
Druchii.net

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.