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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:23 am 
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So one of the reasons I went with dragon mage in the last list was because it is more points efficient - you get everything you want from a mage at mage level IMO, with an option on grounding rod, baby scroll or extra spell (nobody picked up that I was paying lord points for the honour and armour tho -d'oh). But, he's only Ld 8 which means you want someone else for your general, which means you need another character again for your BSB and another for your scroll...and those character points to stack up...

...so I started looking at Dragon-Archmage builds, which at Ld9 18" IP can be a solid general, and with teh basic 2+/2+ loadout gives a nice slot free for the Amethyst Crystal. I've been number-bashing on this and it looks immense, but usually you'd need a dedicated carrier (AM not going for +3/+3 or MoCT not rocking defensive kit). But IMO the dragonmage is perfect - he doesn't need +3/+3 as much as some other casters and he has free slots available. Win win.

Also, I can double up my scroll-caddy and BSB with a baby MoCT, which means I'm sorted on characters. This guy gives me access to alchemy, which I consider all but essential vs some builds, but then I have a choice: shadow (miasma vs cannons and basic bows + attribute on chariots, life - mostly for the attribute, or wilderness - mostly to buff the spears tbh, but could also make the knights S8 on the charge!, which could deal with most things.) Thoughts on this? I'm also not sure whether to invest in armour or not and whether to take a great weapon or spear (can use shield) - thoughts on this?. I think triple march banner might be a good get out of jail free card, especially in a unit of skirmishers, so I'm taking this over the dragonhelm seen as armour can only get so good in this build anyway.

Now, one of the problems with all our foot characters atm, other than wardens (and mitigated by prince magic item allowance) is that they're vulnerable, especially if you're not investing straight up into defense, which with the dispel scroll I am not. I therefore plan to play him avoidance, and need a bunker for him. Up step the grey watchers. They seem OK on the attack, 2A each at I6, 3A for the champ, and higher S attacks with the BSB. I'm not convinced by poison because a lot of high T targets also have armour, but they add to my anti-chaff capacity, and can target war machines. But most importantly, they're mobile - and this is where I value them over qg as a bunker. These replace the sky sloop in rare, which I think is probably a solid model but takes some getting used to and I need a bunker.

The rest of my rare stays teh same as before, as does my special - but with the addition of two regular lion chariots to replace my lion lord from the previous list.

In core I'm ditching the archers - they didn't impress as much as I would have liked. As I have no steadfast blocks I think I need a big unit of spears. I hten filled out core with two scoring units of lancers and a redirecting reaver. However, I'm wondering whether I might be better off replacing a unit of lancers+reavers with a second block of spears (25) - thoughts? I also like to give +1M banner to lancers for veteran, but it doesn't seem worth it with so few, so I don't know what to do for veteran banner...ideas?

The only other thing I'm not 100% sold on is the frosty. I think if I go dual spears I'll keep him because he's excellent infantry support. But if I don't, well, what could I replace him with? The list feels light on shooting, but QG are less flexible in role than before and I'm too used to QtF on them. I could add another bolter and more GWs, but it doesn't feel enough to replace the frosty. Thoughts?

A song of ice and fire..and lions, 2,500pts High Elves


Characters: 744/754

Tanio Draig, General 510

Archmage, Fire 185

Order of the Fiery Heart 220

Dragonforged Armour 15

Hardened Shield 5

Duskstone 30

Amethyst Crystal 55

Young Dragon, Terwyn Free



Cysgodion Anian, BSB 234/244

Commander 70

MoCT 75

Alchemy+Shadows/Nature/Wilderness?

BSB 25

Dispel Scroll 35

Icon of the Relentless Comp 15

Longbow 2

Shield 2

Heavy/Dragon Armour 5/12

Spear/Great Weapon 5/8



Core: 632

30 Spearelves, FC 270

5 Reavers, bow 90

6 lancers, st, mp 147

5 lancers, st, mp 125



Special: 484

7x Knights of Rhyma, DC, FC, War Banner of Rhyma 284

Lion Chariot x2 200



Rare: 622


2x Sea Guard Reaper, RS 160

Frost Pheonix 200

2x 1 Eagle 100

8x Grey Watchers, Ch, lbow, paired weapons 162

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:40 pm 
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Hi Ferny

I'm not really up enough on the rules or the meta but a few thoughts:

1) Presumably you feel you need to use both Arcane slots on defence? Are aggressive options not worth it or is it simply that your army must have the extra protection?

2) Is Halberd an option for BSB? Obviously he usually wants to avoid combat but in extremis, striking at I7 with S5 could be helpful.

3) In general Poison is something you always add if you can in 8th. Not so hot in 9th? I can see the merits in keeping the bunker basic because their main job is to keep the BSB alive.

4) With the 8th army book, many players dropped Eagles in favour of Core redirectors. What is the rationale for them in this list?

5) I like the look of Wilderness for the +1S.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
1) Presumably you feel you need to use both Arcane slots on defence? Are aggressive options not worth it or is it simply that your army must have the extra protection?

2) Is Halberd an option for BSB? Obviously he usually wants to avoid combat but in extremis, striking at I7 with S5 could be helpful.

3) In general Poison is something you always add if you can in 8th. Not so hot in 9th? I can see the merits in keeping the bunker basic because their main job is to keep the BSB alive.

4) With the 8th army book, many players dropped Eagles in favour of Core redirectors. What is the rationale for them in this list?

5) I like the look of Wilderness for the +1S.


1. As a rule, I never leave home without a scroll, and therefore if it is not present on my 'main' caster (whatever that would be) I tend to take a secondary caster as a caddy. In this list I could stick the scroll on the DM - the points/slot are available if I didn't take the crystal - but as well as a scroll I also try to take at least one level of alchemy as a hard counter to those things against which otherwise I might struggle (the only other truly high S attacks I have in this list are my KoR, which can't be everywhere and aren't *that* manouverable)...so if I'm taking an alchemy caddy I might as well make my secondary caster the scroll bearer. In this case it is quite points efficient because I get a BSB on the same character (no savings yet), as well as a second lore of magic (this extra lore/spell is effectively 'free' - if I only wanted the alchemy I could get a mage instead and drop the BSB down to a handmaiden).

Also, specifically for this build, I noticed I had all the defensive kit on the mage I wanted for under 55 points, and there's little value in giving him a magic weapon, so I had the points available for the crystal. You need an AM or MoCT lord to carry it and I haven't yet used an AM in 9th (nor a MoCT since he became expensive, and then subseuently dropped a little), so given this list had one and I had poitns available to try the crystal, I went for it. I was doing the stats on paper and it really does look like a game changer for magical defense, IMO looks well worth the points, it's just difficult to find a caddy for it, but this list does that fine.

Also, when you look at the offensive items, what is there? +3/+3 to cast looks solid and would probably be my preferred build with a 'normal' AM, but IMO fire is not a 'must-stop' lore so it is less critical for me to have those high casting values (rather, it has a redundancy of useful spells, especially on the dragon mage who can cast into combat). There's also the book of meladys, but I think that is more points efficient on a hero level character (specifically one with a sig spell at specific casting values where one dicing is likely to work unless rolling 1-2, and/or where the (effective) +2 to cast but with less variance via the re-roll is going to cross you over the threshold for using one less die to cast. Other than those two, what offensive items would you go for?


2. Halberd is an option, but you still lose the shield with it. So you're looking either at spear with shield (for AP, lethal strike), or two hand weapons (+1A, +1I) or halberd (+1S) or GW (+2S, but no +1 to hit, just hit in I order). Of these, for me, it's always a decision between spear for some offensive capabilities while maintaining the shield, or GW where you get the critical S6 at I order but lose the +1 to hit (so likely just hitting on 3's not 2's).

3. I'm not sold on shadow warriors/grey watchers, they've always struggled to earn their spot for me - too many rules packaged onto tehm (scout, skirmish, now poison and weapon upgrades), not all of which you might want for their role, but you still pay for them. I've kitted them out with longbows and paired weapons so that they can hold their own, given I'm spending so many points anyway, but in this case I don't really need scout. I'd also like to have thbe option to buy poison rather than have to pay such a high price for skirmishing bunker, but in principle I do like it on htem, both fluff and rules wise. FYI, certainly in this iteration of 9th, it comes as base with Grey Watchers.

4. I no longer view core as a core tax. As such, I'd rather spend 625 points of useful core (as opposed to chaff core) and 100pts of rare chaff than 180 points of core chaff and have 100pts extra (which I don't need in this list) available to me in rare.

5. Yeah, I'm torn on that last lore - wilderness, miasma and movement (and a cool nagarythe theme), or nature...

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:33 pm 
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So basically the magic phase build just came together Ferny? Makes sense. When I was list-building I liked Book of Meladys because it helped with high casting values. Not sure if that applies here though. The Halberd just doesn't look as attractive without ASF does it? I know the SW bunker has been a favourite of Giladis for some years now. WE players have done similar things.

Looking back at HE's in early 8th, under the 7th edition book, Core could fairly be described as a 'tax'. But for each if the three armies I play in 8th it's pretty functional. Nevertheless, there are slightly better options outside which still favour keeping it close to 25%. Is it in fact fully equal to non-Core in 9th Age? Another factor would seem to be the banner-carrying Helms in your list Ferny, a tactical consideration not present so much in 8th.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:12 pm 
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Finally had a chance to play this list, against a match up I think is quite decent - daomons...specifically,
lust block with herald,
small change with herald,
two flaming chariot,
one wrath chariot (but as leader wasn't wrath it doesn't have a cannon),
4 crushers,
3x 5 chaff wrath furies,
and a tzeench deamon lord.

So decent amount of infantry, some soft chariots, just two really hard units (lord and crushers), of which certainly the crushers are vulnerable (just 4+, 5++).

I lost very badly, in part following when the flaming chariots both hit, wounded and 3 wounded my dragon mage with bolt throwers (they only work like that one game in 10, but because they can you have to respect them). But mostly I think I deployed badly and followed through poorly. Also, I felt I lacked shooting in this list, making it insufficiently combined armsy for me. And I didn't get on with the lion chariots - they're not quite tanky enough to tank a charge, so they around just being a threat zone for a long time...I might try switchign them for sloops, except my rare is crowded...but I could drop the frosty and change him for a small unit of DPs...

Anyway, while I like list building, I think this one probably is OK, I just need to play more. Was excellent to finally play a game again after my hiatus, but this is what finishing the thesis feels like...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:17 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
a match up I think is quite decent

Interesting because it has consistently been even, arguably, as far back as 7th edition.

Ferny wrote:
one wrath chariot (but as leader wasn't wrath it doesn't have a cannon),

This really helped put me off 9th Age Daemons. I knew I wanted one cannon and didn't want a Wrath general.

Ferny wrote:
3x 5 chaff wrath furies

Again, a classic answer to a lot of Daemon problems going way back.

Ferny wrote:
I felt I lacked shooting in this list, making it insufficiently combined armsy for me.

Does it need weight Ferny, maybe another RBT or magic bow? Or volume, massed Archers perhaps?

Ferny wrote:
I just need to play more.

Theoryhammer is great but it's better with testing.

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:20 am 
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For me it lacked the mass shooting rather than good shooting. I'd have liked to remove furies more quickly (but skirmishers... :roll: P), but also to thin out the deamonettes, tackle the casting horrors, plink wounds off the flaming chariots...basically all stuff I'd expect my massed arrows to do. Maybe this is a match up where I'd prefer sea guard to spears (still want the weapon 'spears' in my list), but it would have detracted from the big block effect. But mostly for this match up I still think list was fine and I screwed myself in deployment, and then followed through with a braindead plan...but that was just me getting back into the game.

But more generally, I did feel the loss of shooting impacted negatively on my ability to play the game tactically, or at least, teh type of tactically I've gotten used to playing. Also, flaming sword is an excellent spell, and it synergises beautifully with massed bowfire, but without the massed shooting it becomes only a mid-late game winner rather than early game too...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:44 pm 
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So you think the list is solid and feel inclined to prove it Ferny? If you were to bring more shooting in what would the amended roster look like? As you say, this is (and has always been) a missile-friendly match-up, mainly due to the lack of armour I suspect.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:35 am 
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Honestly, I'm not sure how to tweak the list yet. I'm quite keen to try out a variety of lists so I've sort of got too many ideas floating about. Possibly a big block of sisters (I think they'd synergise well with DM), ideally in that case switching my BSB out for a handmaiden, in which case I'd need to consider a scroll caddy if I want to retain the 55pt crystal on the lord, which I think is good so for now I do...but what would I drop? Possibly the frosty - I'm not sure how much he adds in this list? Maybe one of the lion chariots if need be? Dunno...

I'll also look at the cost difference between spears and sea guard and see whether there's something that could be done there, but tbh, I think I'd lose too many bodies going down that route...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:32 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I'm quite keen to try out a variety of lists so I've sort of got too many ideas floating about.

I know what you mean. I'm allowed to take a different list to each of the three games at my next tournament and it's tempting to go MSU, Combined Arms, Smash List for example. Instead I'm going to try one new thing out each game. Turbocharged Tzeentch Herald, then probably Skulltaker, then maybe something saucy from Slaanesh. I think it really pays to keep some stable units and combos game to game, to solidify the learning process.

How did the ETC go BTW?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:15 pm 
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Hi all!

I guess this will be my first post on Ulthuan. I've played "the dark side" for about tree years now before I was presented with an High elf army from my friends. "Better to have someone uing the models than to let them gather dust" .. Win win for me! =D>

I've been trying different combinations of list before I played a game last friday. Never gotten the rolls or a "working" list to win against the opponent (that also include when I played DE). He used to play Deamons and VC before switching to Beast heard now in 9th.
I read about this list a while a go and thought the build looked like fun. I have always liked the dragons even when I watched my friends play the game I guess back in 3rd edition. But was always afraid to take one due to cost and cannons.

So I did a copy-paste of your list with the last update you made to it. Going AM with baby dragon. I was actually tricking him as well. Because the last time we played we paired up (me and a dwarf army) against him (beat herd and O&G) and I brought a aincent dragon on a high prince. It just wrecked havoc on the other side of the table. :) Btw we won that game. Elf speed with dwarf fireline was excelent!

But going back to the game. Here is his list:

Minotaur Warlord
Sword of strength
Dragon Mantle
Eye of Dominance
Talisman of greater shielding

Soothsayer
lvl 2 wilderness
Tome of arcane lore
Dark Rain

Minotaur cheiftan
Totem Bearer
Banner of discipline

Wildhorn herd (40) FC
Banner of the wild herd
Totem bearer

Wildhorn herd (20) FC

2x Riding chariot

Minotaurus (8) FC
Rending banner

Briar beast

Razortusk herd

Longhorn herd (30) FC
Holy Icon

Centaurus (5)

Centaurus (5)

He thought I brought the same dragon this time. Oh was he wrong! He buildt a minotaur bus with bot lord and BSB. It did not survive a combo charge from S7 KoR alongside a lion chariot (5 impact hits btw) and a flank charge by the frosty! Before that most of he's "chaff" and cheap units was picked up by arrows or chariots (one of the chariots survived a rear charge from briar beast). After the he's lord fled (and was picked up by my frosty), it was all up to my spearmen to "save the day" since I lost the KoR in the battle against his bus. I had more on the table at that time, and would have won the game even if that unit would end up losing. I had the BSB there and with + to wound and or ward save and boosted toughness he had a hard time dealing with 14 attacks + BSB, and I grinded him down (with some help from lancers and chariots).

So all in all a really fun game with a "non standard" list...

I do have one question... Or we both did actually. Why all the saves and armor on the AM? Since its a ridden monster all rolles are done against dragon isn't it? I did feel a bit weak since the dragon had no AS. But he didn't bring that much missile or artillery so I was kind of safe. I didn't hide he that much behind buildings and such eighter. But he never went into CC...

I will look for any update on this tread. So please keep me posted on the future changes and updates.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:20 am 
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Hey - welcome to Ulthuan and the High(born) Elves!

Glad you liked the list and it gave you something to play with. I'm actually trying out other concepts at the moment (I'm trying to find an infantry build that works for me - internet will have you believe they're weak builds compared to other options, but I'm a fan so I want to work with it and see what I can do).

loppamannen wrote:

So all in all a really fun game with a "non standard" list...

I do have one question... Or we both did actually. Why all the saves and armor on the AM? Since its a ridden monster all rolles are done against dragon isn't it? I did feel a bit weak since the dragon had no AS. But he didn't bring that much missile or artillery so I was kind of safe. I didn't hide he that much behind buildings and such eighter. But he never went into CC...

I will look for any update on this tread. So please keep me posted on the future changes and updates.


If you take a dragon then you're right, you use the monster's AS (3+) and the mage's armour doesn't count, although lucky shield etc would grant you a ward vs first hit, etc.

But if you take the youngblood dragon, which is what I go for (I may not have been explicit about this in my post though), then this is a Monsterous Beast, which becomes Monsterous Cav when mounted, but is not technically a Monster per se. As such you claim any mounts protection it offers (6+) and combine it with the best armour you can get, which for me is 2+/2+.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
Hey - welcome to Ulthuan and the High(born) Elves!

Seconded! Congrats on the win Iopamannen!

:)

Ferny wrote:
I'm trying to find an infantry build that works for me

Show us a draft list!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:23 pm 
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Here's the last list I used, tough I switched to Lv4 White and Lv2 Metal.

http://9thbuilder.com/en/army_lists/cb3 ... agics.html

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
But if you take the youngblood dragon, which is what I go for (I may not have been explicit about this in my post though), then this is a Monsterous Beast, which becomes Monsterous Cav when mounted, but is not technically a Monster per se. As such you claim any mounts protection it offers (6+) and combine it with the best armour you can get, which for me is 2+/2+.

Hmmm... I did not notice that. That changes... A LOT actually. Thanks for pointing that out. Will make sure to use the wiz differently the next time I use the list. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:55 pm 
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Your list looks pretty sensible as far as I can see Ferny. Fairly classic defensive infantry and shooting list.

1) Presumably the BSB usually goes in the Queen's Guard? What's the thinking on the 3x March banner?
2) Why Reavers over small units of Lancers (which can Score of course)?
3) How well do the Knights fit in? They're awesome but I'm wondering if you need those high-strength attacks in a block somewhere rather than in a more aggressive unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:26 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Your list looks pretty sensible as far as I can see Ferny. Fairly classic defensive infantry and shooting list.

1) Presumably the BSB usually goes in the Queen's Guard? What's the thinking on the 3x March banner?
2) Why Reavers over small units of Lancers (which can Score of course)?
3) How well do the Knights fit in? They're awesome but I'm wondering if you need those high-strength attacks in a block somewhere rather than in a more aggressive unit.


1. Yeah, BSB's natural place is QG. 3x March Banner is intended to get them out of a tight spot. However, I think it is better placed on the sea guard, to get them into position quickly early on, or onto a scoring position late game. That frees up points on the BSB/QG for something else if I want it, or just more points. I was advised by better players of its utility in QG but it hasn't really been working for me.

2. I think I need to do a swap here and include at least 1 unit of scoring lancers, but as they cost more points I might need to cull some sea guard. IMO they can do similar roles, and in some cases lancers do it better - very match up dependent whether you want fake flee or extra armour and lances. But with 2 eagles I think I can afford the switch, and to an extent reavers are there out of habit. Also, with enough shooting you can IMO reduce teh amount of chaff you take.

3. I think they fit fab into any list, and I don't leave home without them. They're fast, reasonably durable, and very hitty. Also not *tooo* expensive. If I were to replace them, what could take their role? Lions perhaps, but IMO too slow and more vulnerable to many spells, templates, etc. Or lion chariots, which IMO are a valid alternative, but I think KoR do it better (needs more playtesting).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:12 am 
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OK, I've played 2 or 3 games with this list - couple of changes:

http://9thbuilder.com/en/army_lists/445 ... agics.html

Characters:
I'm keeping my +3/+3 Asfad AM on metal/white (tbc - experimenting with both, may experiment with others down the line). I've ditched Ring of Fire - I know it's popular, but I wasn't getting much joy from it, and I have enough magic in the list to not need it so I've freed up some points and streamlined my magic phase. I've then gone for MR3 to round him off - now whether he goes in the QG to protect my expensive ladies, or the sea guard to protect the big block, he's adding serious survivability/utility.

My QC BSB is now toting the banner of discipline, 5++ vs war machines and dragon armour/hardened shield (and longbow/moonlight arrows), but she's lost her spear and triple march banner (and the MR has shifted onto the AM, now the ring has been fired). Her default location is with the sisters, but she could bug out and join the sea guard if her bunker gets depleted. She's Ld10 which isn't too shabby, so even if the AM is elsewhere (sea guard most likely), sea guard, flame wardens and KoR would all be Ld9 and if the BSB is close with re-rolls, so I'm not too worried about the Ld10 bubble being in play or not, but the option is there. I ditched x3M because it wasn't working for me, but I think it would work well on the sea guard to get them into position.

Mini-mage is unchanged - caddy and MR1 because joining the flame wardens, white/alchemy (whichever AM isn't). This list therefore has 3++ vs magic unit, 4++ vs magic unit, and a fireborn unit of knights, as well as scroll, +3 to dispel and drain magic, so that feels good. I'm just a bit sad about war machines, which would need to be neutralised ASAP by shooting or magic.

Sea guard now have x3M rather than +1CR banner. I remain unconvinced of the value of +1CR on this type of unit, but I think x3M would help get this big machine gun block into position quickly and early, and from then on hopefully would not need to keep reforming/moving/range issues so fewer to hit modifiers.

I sacked the 2 reavers for 1 unit of scoring helms; I would have liked to keep 1 unit of reavers but the helms outcost them so they both had to go. I think which is better depends on match ups, but on the shooting heavy ones reavers suck (IMO) and in the low shooty ones I'll still have 2 eagles, loads of shooting, decent magic, and the lancers, so I think I'll cope on chaff/anti-chaff. I think this change makes the list more stable.

No real changes to the rest of the list, just some cosmetic things to deal with points issues.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:00 am 
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Your reasoning makes sense. While reavers are always nice to have, I think you have enough redirectors in the two eagles, and if push comes to shove then you can always throw the helms under the bus. The helms will be better in dealing with chaff and your shooting should help a bit as well.

The ring of fire is great if you don't have enough magic to always have something useful to cast. But if you have enough to spend your dice on then I think other items are worth it more.

as for the banner on the Sea guard, I have rarely found that +1 CR makes a difference. Yes, it can shift a los into a tie or it can be that single point that causes a unit to fail a break test instead of pass it. But these really are very situational. More often then not you either win big or lose big. Same for the breaktest. It happens that you fail on 1 pt, but not that often. Getting into the fights you want and avoiding the ones you don't has more value then something that influences a combat once every few fights.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:21 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I was advised by better players of its utility in QG but it hasn't really been working for me.

Interesting. I would've thought the longbows wouldn't need this kind of help. However, the 10" March to get out of trouble has long been a useful trick for elf archers.

Ferny wrote:
3. I think they fit fab into any list, and I don't leave home without them. They're fast, reasonably durable, and very hitty. Also not *tooo* expensive. If I were to replace them, what could take their role? Lions perhaps, but IMO too slow and more vulnerable to many spells, templates, etc. Or lion chariots, which IMO are a valid alternative, but I think KoR do it better (needs more playtesting).

I guess it's whether their sheer efficiency trumps an option that might possibly fit the list better? I'm thinking of an equivalent to the tank Anointed in 8th edition lists. So a really hard foot character to meet enemy who reach your line.

Prince of Spires wrote:
s for the banner on the Sea guard, I have rarely found that +1 CR makes a difference.

I presume the reasoning for it here is that general killing power is somewhat less in 9th Age, so increasing the importance of static combat res?

Taking this list to your November tourney Ferny? Your list link isn't working for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:48 pm 
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I think I've fixed the link, hopefully should work now.

Indeed the x3M on the sisters was for objective grabbing late game and emergency escapes, but it never played out that way for me. I like that they can take a magic banner, and they're a good candidate for a magicy one (e.g. becalming or aether icon), but neither are necessary in this list, so I save the points, which is useful cos rare is packed.

I'm honestly not sure why +1CR was rated so highly for sea guard. I think it's valid for say MSU lancers if you haven't already assigned a veteran standard, but to my mind that's its best use. Or even as a cheeky buff on a BSB if you're not using your full allowance elsewhere, for +3 static res just from banners. But on a unit like seaguard I just don't see it. I guess it's for those marginal fights, but...

RE: tank annointed (or equivalent) - interesting idea. I do feel my infantry lacks killing power vs tough units (unless buffed by magic - had an absolutely ace game last night where the synergy between magic and units was absolutely beautiful to behold). But infantry characters are IMO too weak for combat for HBE, with the exception of warden, who is too expensive to be worth it.

All that said, i think I'd refute that an infantry character fits better. Rhyma Knights threaten a counter charge. They have pretty incredible zoning potential. They're fast, so they can get flanks or move into threatening positions. And also, at my heart, I think I'm a combined arms man. So I've got core shooting, rare shooting, war machines, magic, infantry blocks, chaff...and then I need cavalry. And they are just incredible IMO - not just efficient, but truly ace. (And I'm less experienced at using chariots, which would be the obvious alternative contender to fulfill that role.

I'm not sure what list I'll take in November. I'm not even sure whether I might take my beast herds for an outing, but probably HBE. Ideally I need something which plays faster than this, but we'll see how many games I get in before then and whether I change my concept again. Currently I'm really enjoying the +3/+3 AM, so I think that is certainly locked down.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:57 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
But infantry characters are IMO too weak for combat for HBE, with the exception of warden, who is too expensive to be worth it.

Of course there are limits. But I'm reminded of Seredain spending 60pts to get S7 on his Prince when he could have settled for S6 at around 10.

Ferny wrote:
All that said, i think I'd refute that an infantry character fits better. Rhyma Knights threaten a counter charge. They have pretty incredible zoning potential. They're fast, so they can get flanks or move into threatening positions.

Again, I'm thinking of Brewmaster's old Coven lists where he gradually dropped all cavalry.

Ferny wrote:
And also, at my heart, I think I'm a combined arms man. So I've got core shooting, rare shooting, war machines, magic, infantry blocks, chaff...and then I need cavalry.

I take the point but just as Seredain's lists were pretty aggressive Combined Arms at first, so this is pretty defensive. Drop the Knights and it's almost a bowline.

Ferny wrote:
And they are just incredible IMO - not just efficient, but truly ace.

Fair play. Sometimes it really is just about picking the hardest units.

Ferny wrote:
I'm not sure what list I'll take in November. I'm not even sure whether I might take my beast herds for an outing, but probably HBE. Ideally I need something which plays faster than this, but we'll see how many games I get in before then and whether I change my concept again. Currently I'm really enjoying the +3/+3 AM, so I think that is certainly locked down.

Oh the lure of Chaos. The Archmage thing is a good sign!

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:18 pm 
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Given the list as it sits now, say the KoR were removed, for the points what would you replace them with SA? The only sensible options I see are either lion chariots from special or a lion charioteer character - do you see other options?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:37 pm 
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Drop an RBT (maybe even eagle(s)) as well and put in the High Warden? Not saying it's better, just throwing ideas around.

Ferny wrote:
had an absolutely ace game last night where the synergy between magic and units was absolutely beautiful to behold

Missed this. Summarize it?

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:09 pm 
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I can do better than that:
http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... -me-charge

I still need to respond in full there but I haven't had the time yet...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:40 am 
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It was a fun read. Pity you lost, but it was a close game with a few swings both ways. And those are usually the best games to play.

From your deployment I was a bit worried that you were spread out too much. The lancers at the top for instance didn't get to do much most of the game. Did you feel this was an issue? Also, you played a bit reactive. It could simply be because of the list you have (lot of ranged damage, no big combat threats). Was this how you hoped the list would play or did you aim for something more mobile?

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:42 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It was a fun read. Pity you lost, but it was a close game with a few swings both ways. And those are usually the best games to play.

From your deployment I was a bit worried that you were spread out too much. The lancers at the top for instance didn't get to do much most of the game. Did you feel this was an issue? Also, you played a bit reactive. It could simply be because of the list you have (lot of ranged damage, no big combat threats). Was this how you hoped the list would play or did you aim for something more mobile?

Rod


I made, IMO, two big mistakes in deployment.

1. Sea guard too far forward - this meant htat each time I retreated I had -1 to hit, and htis could ahve been easily avoided as he's advancing towards me.
2. KoR too close to the table edge - this meant that as I retreated I didn't actually have hte space to adequately wheel, which is what allowed his BSB into the blind spot in the first place.

I also made a stupid error with my eagles - they should have covered the ruins from the scouts - but I 'got away with it' because he popped out of cover. I'm sitll not quite sure why...

RE my lancers - they were countering his flying hero/skinks/swarms, and also staying the hell away from his nasty toxic breath weapons. I don't think they would have been much use on the other flank tbh - too crowded. That said, they did bugger all all game really. I perhaps should have swung them round and tackled his small saurus block, but it's risky for such a small knights unit. Mostly I was keeping them for scoring purposes at that point.

RE: style - I think in this match up I am forced to be reactive. I could have been more creative with my rhyma knights if I'd deployed them with more manouverability, but in essence here I have to soften him up with fire, chaff him up, hold him up, and whittle him down...

Was a really, really fun game though!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:32 am 
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Played a game against ogres the other night and got very frustrated at how little I could dictate teh flow or even do - we could have saved ourselves two turns by just saying "remove X% from the closest two units and deploy within charge range of my army".

Incidentally, one conclusion I came to was that with such a sit back army probably lion chariots of one sort or another would be better than KoR.

But I've decided to give my beast heards a go now, and had my first game with them in ages tonight (only third ever game with them). OMG - so much fun - really dynamic list. No meaningful shooting forces you to move, and I had only totems (no wizards), so magiv played very different too. I'm gonna have a little time out from my elves and enjoy something different for a while.

Also...new rules are coming out soon, so I'm looking forward to seeing them!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:33 am 
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It really comes down to what kind of army you like playing. I know some people who really like the tactical side of Dwarves, trying to get your opponent to do what you want, simply by focusing on specific parts and making the most use of what limited mobility you have. But it's not my kind of army. I love the mobility I get from the more aggressive elf lists I normally run. It's a special way in which everything has to work together. If it does the game usually goes well. But if it doesn't things can fall apart quite fast.

Why do you consider the lion chariot to be a better choice in your list? Is it that the threat zone they project is a bit bigger / your opponent is less likely to want to get charged by them? Or something else?

Your beast herds list sounds like fun. It's interesting for me to think about lists that don't compete in one of the phases. Something I'm not really used to. In general it means that the phases you do play in have to bring something extra to compensate. No shooting and different magic means you need a fast and hard hitting force. It sounds like you managed to create one. What list did you bring?

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It really comes down to what kind of army you like playing. I know some people who really like the tactical side of Dwarves, trying to get your opponent to do what you want, simply by focusing on specific parts and making the most use of what limited mobility you have. But it's not my kind of army. I love the mobility I get from the more aggressive elf lists I normally run. It's a special way in which everything has to work together. If it does the game usually goes well. But if it doesn't things can fall apart quite fast.

Why do you consider the lion chariot to be a better choice in your list? Is it that the threat zone they project is a bit bigger / your opponent is less likely to want to get charged by them? Or something else?


Two reasons I think:
1) A great advantage of KoR is their mobility - huge movement/threat range, ability to redeploy/move great distances accross the table, etc. But I find myself not using this power in this list, because I'm generally sitting back. Lion chariots can sit back quite happily, but still have decent M and swifstride for threat range.
2) The biggest downside I find with them is their frontage, which makes them a bit unwieldy. The lion chariots do not suffer this at all.

Quote:
Your beast herds list sounds like fun. It's interesting for me to think about lists that don't compete in one of the phases. Something I'm not really used to. In general it means that the phases you do play in have to bring something extra to compensate. No shooting and different magic means you need a fast and hard hitting force. It sounds like you managed to create one. What list did you bring?

Rod


It's really strange for me to play as an almost mono HBE player.

My list was written for me by the guy I bought the (fully painted, based, magnetised :shock: :o :mrgreen: =D> ) army off, but I had to drop the Lv4 and half my elite unit to make it fit 2000pts.

It had:
beast lord (for ambush skill) and BSB with totems (for magic)
6 units of ambushing mongrels (4 skirmishers)
2 units of ambushing wildhorns (I think they're called?)
1 ambushing giant
1 pumba
2 chariots
10 gargoyles
1 gortach
20 halberd wielding elite beasts

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