The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#121 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

Thanks a lot for continuous supply of great reports! It is awesome that you are still reporting despite the tough circumstances for 8th edition Warhammer players. Your reports are definitely one of the few remaining reasons why I still come back to check Ulthuan.net for something good to read. Please, keep them coming!

As to the report I know what you mean about familiar army :) It is not only assisted by hard to kill Doombulls but also has tough magic due to Herdstone. It looks like it is all-or-nothing approach where the units are simply ablative armor for the characters and road blocks for the enemy.

I would like to ask about the plan for the deployment first. You knew that the enemy is going to rush towards you as he is equipped for close combat and wanted to negate your shooting. Why did you risk your vulnerable shooting by positioning it as close as possible to your enemy? Deploying bolt throwers behind the lake would allow you to cover the battle field nicely, would add extra range and provide kind of obstacle to cross, maybe denying rank bonus and steadfast if some unit wanted to charge through it.

At the same time the combat troops are further away and your leaders do not support any other unit but their own. With so many expendable but fast support among the enemy ranks your cavalry regiment also faces the danger of being slowed down and choked on the flank.

In turn 1 you decided to move reavers to block the block of ungors with doombulls. Was it to slow them down as when they charge they also overrun d6" only? While slowing down is good the side effect is that you easily give the enemy the opportunity to increase the number of attacks Doombulls can have.

Also, what was the plan to use Frostheart unsupported like that?

In your turn 3 you could charge with the prince (or maybe BSB?) against blocking unit and destroy it. Silver Helms were in a position then to reform towards the flank of the Ungor. You would be in a good position to help your PG with the full unit and possibly with the single character too (reform after combat) while other riders would not be able to block everything.

It was very risky to try and kill the Doombull with the prince as he had to hit with all his attacks and then wound with all of them. I presume it was the Doombull with 1+ armor save not the one with ward save? In any case I would attack with the prince in the way that he would not touch the character. Let him try to kill PG because with 4++ ward they have better chances to save his attacks than the Prince. Instead, prince could shift the balance into your favor and make it possible to take break at much better result and give time to Silver Helms to help. In fact, I would charge with both, BSB and Prince into the flank to add more wounds and start grinding the ungor and get wounds and more static CR. The enemy cannot make way as they are engaged in front and cannot attack as you would be touching regular ungors (with re-rolls you are almost guaranteed to get 7 wounds from characters alone, that is 7 wounds + flank + bsb for doombulls to balance out with their attacks).

I wonder if it was possible to charge the gors to stop them from attacking PG later on. But when Prince dies and PG fled it was indeed over.

Just wanted to add I commented as I read so I didn't know about your own comments yet. :)

I don't think it was a mistake to charge flying doombull as it was tough situation already. There is one thing I wanted to try in order to make doombulls in the unit lose their frenzy. I think you had a chance to do it.

You need a flanking force and an eagle to the front. Eagle charges in a way that touches both doombulls so that they cannot make way. Then you charge the flanking force to do damage. Froeastheart would be great here as you charge in a way that does not make it touch doombulls. They inflict only 3 wounds against poor eagle while Forstheart can win the combat if it can thunderstomp well. Although with its own attacks it can already do some damage. If that works the unit can actually stop already, you can maneuver to get other units to counter again and doombulls lose frenzy.

I don't usually comment on army lists as I think players should always try to find their own way if they include something it means that they have the plan. And if things don't work it is usually due to certain mistakes. Winning with the army you pick might not be easy but I also think it is better for the player to follow their own style and get better with it than copy somebody's else army.

It is true that buses were very popular but they also were popular due to the fact they played in certain environment. Your usual opponents may or may not play in similar settings. That is why it is better to play to your own strengths rather than minimize the weaknesses as they can be conditional.

It was a good game, you made some mistakes but also made bold decisions and put up a fight. You had the tools to hurt the enemy so I think you would gain better from looking at the game and trying to come up with different deployment, plan or consider different decisions you could have made during the battle.

As long as the opponent was fair and sporty person you can only grow from such experiences. Don't be afraid to experiment further but only to find your own way in playing that game.

Cheers!
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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#122 Post by Elithmar »

I had a game yesterday (report coming soon) using this build:

Loremaster, Ogre Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dispel Scroll

The Ogre Blade is probably a bit over the top, but I don't seem overly strapped for points. I suppose keeping the Sword of Might would allow me to take an extra Silver Helm, provided I squeezed a couple of points from another unit. As you'll see, I probably used the Scroll a bit prematurely, although there's always the risk of it going unused if left too late. I definitely need to be less ambitious with how many spells I can cast - I was using too few dice, but without the Book I probably need to aim to cast one fewer spell or use one more die for each spell. The Loremaster has great versatility, but I've been finding that the most important spell, mid-late game is always Earth Blood, to heal the Prince.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I would like to ask about the plan for the deployment first.
Well, it wasn't very good. :P I placed my shooting units first, thinking that I could use the hill to get good line of sight, As you say, behind the lake would be better. I've got myself into a bad habit of immediately seeing a hill and thinking it'll be good for my bolt throwers, but of course that isn't always the case. When had to place the phoenix guard and the helms, I didn't know where the doombulls were going. I should have put my combat units in the centre to support my shooting elements better and so I could attack either flank, but I was thinking that I wanted them to be as far away from the doombulls as possible. To be honest though, they were the only units which could defeat the doombulls, so perhaps not such a bad idea. I should have protected my shooters though, so I could use them to clear the enemy chaff.

As you point out, and as I was beginning to think, it was probably better to not block the doombulls. Although I held them up for a few turns, it allowed them to get more tokens. Having said that, I killed one and if I'd held back for a few more turns and got either the phoenix or the helms into the flank of the unit, perhaps I could have removed the tokens and broken the unit.

I didn't have a plan for the Frostheart. :P I thought maybe he could get into the large unit and kill some characters, or even get into the redirectors in front of that unit first to hold it up, but I had to retreat when the phoenix was left on only one wound.

Not really anything I can say to the rest of your comments. You're completely right, there were much better ways to try to tackle the doombull unit and I'll bear them in mind in future.

Thanks both of you for the continuing comments. I'll have another game up soon. :)
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"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#123 Post by SpellArcher »

Ogre Blade looks good to me. With it (and picking up AP from Razor Standard) the Loremaster is a threat, even to heavily armoured characters. Merwyrm Shield is good value but there are two things it doesn't work against to watch out for IMHO. First is Death snipes. Second is getting Thunderstomped in a challenge. How many dice do you tend to throw at a 6+, 8+, 10+ etc CV Eli?

Deploying shooters can be a complex business but in general I would suggest putting bolt shooters on or near to the baseline, they have the range. There are of course times when you want them on a hill or such. Clear lines of sight remain important. Sisters though, need to be deployed where they can reliably get into 24" range with a 5" move (if necessary). This can often (but not always) mean centre-left or centre-right. Archers have a bit more leeway with their 30" range, so you might for example, deploy them 8" or so in from the baseline to buy them more time to shoot.
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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#124 Post by Elithmar »

Death snipes aren't too much of a worry. If they're targeting the Loremaster, at least they aren't targeting the Prince and anyway, the range is only 12". Plus, he has a fair chance of surviving with three wounds and ld 9. Then there's the Scroll. It's not perfect, but it's a good economy choice. Thunderstomping characters can be challenged by the champion. I'm honestly a lot more worried about massed infantry (and you'll see why soon ;) ).

I tend to assume I'll get 7 on two dice when calculating how many to use. Of course, this isn't perfect and gets more accurate with more dice. Now I can't really say what I tend to do because I'd have to look back through tons of data (most of which I don't have any more), but looking at those values now, I'd say two dice for 6+, probably two for 8+ (a bit risky) and three for 10+. I probably need to start throwing an extra die though, to be certain (recently, I've had far too many magic phases end on the first roll). On how many dice to use, I found this video very useful.

Thanks for that advice. It's definitely something on which I need to concentrate.

Thanks once again for continuing to comment. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#125 Post by SpellArcher »

You're welcome Eli. Hopefully the perspective of a fellow HE player is useful.

Death snipes can be very dangerous (one reason ETC comp this Lore to smithereens) because they're a risk-free way to kill stuff and can be spammed. Mostly, they have a 24" range. The scroll is helpful but still. The odd one here and there you'll be fine against but the spam builds would be a problem. Challenge Thunderstomp is less of an issue, it just takes an option away.

Say you throw two dice, needing a seven. You have a two-in-five chance of failing and Breaking Concentration. But also, dice are very likely equal now, meaning your opponent might stop all spells with just dice, retaining the scroll he might have. If you throw three dice, you have an excellent chance of reaching that seven, say you roll a 10. Assuming equal magic levels, your opponent now has to throw four dice to be pretty sure of stopping it, three is risky. Not wasting any dice is key. Of course there are exceptions. As a rule, I tend to work out which dice I'll use on which spells and cast the ones most likely to meet the CV first. But again, battlefield circumstances may alter this.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#126 Post by Elithmar »

I played a game against Skaven last week, using the same list as in my last game. Sorry for the delay in writing the report.

2400pts vs Skaven
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Loremaster, Ogre Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dispel Scroll
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
24 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
12 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle

Skaven
Level 4 Grey Seer, General, Lores of Ruin and Plague, Talisman of Endurance, Dispel Scroll
Warlord, Shield, Fellblade
Chieftan, Battle Standard Bearer, Shield, Standard of Discipline
Assassin, Weeping Blade, Potion of Strength
Level 1 Engineer, Lore of Ruin, Scroll of Shielding, Doomrocket
Engineer, Obsidian Lodestone, Ironcurse icon
49 Skaven Slaves, Champion, Musician
49 Skaven Slaves, Champion, Musician
21 Skaven Slaves, Champion, Musician
24 Clanrats, Full Command
48 Stormvermin, Full Command, Razor Standard
2 Rat Swarms
6 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison
6 Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison
Warp Lightning Cannon
Warp Lightning Cannon
3 Stormfiends, 2 Ratling Cannons, 1 Windlauncher

Deployment
Image

Spells
Greyseer – Skitterleap, Bless with Filth, Vermintide, Cloud of Corruption
Engineer – Howling Warpgale

High Elves turn one
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7/6 (Pheonix 4+ ward). 2 dice Fireball at swarm, let through, 5 wounds. 2 dice Wildform at helms, let through. 3 dice Iceshard at WLC, dispelled.

Shooting put one wound on the remaining swarm.

Skaven turn one
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The Slaves which went into a horde failed their swift reform test.

He channelled, making it 11/6. He threw five dice at Howling Warpgale, I used all of mine to dispel. He then got Bless with Filth on the Slaves with one die.

He fired the Doomrocket at the helms, wounding 11 times, leaving only four dead after saves. The Ratling Cannon then opened up, doing 13 wounds to the helms, leaving five more dead. One WLC hit the Prince, luckily only doing a single wound. The other misfired.

The Fellblade then wounded the Warlord, offering some small consolation.

High Elves turn two
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My Prince very honourably led his unit behind the impassable terrain to hide from the cannon. :D

My opponenet channelled again, making it 7/6. The Phoenix got +1S. I threw two dice at Fireball on the Swarm, but it was dispelled. I then failed a two dice Earthblood.

In shooting I got a single wound on the WLC, eventually finished off the Swarm and the Sisters put three wounds on a Stormfiend and one on their Engineer.

Skaven turn two
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Both units of Gutter Runners arrived.

2/1. I don’t know what he cast, but I scrolled it.

In shooting one Eagle Claw went down, the other was left on one wound. One cannon killed two Phoenix Guards and the other killed a Reaver, while the Stormfiends killed all the Prince’s friends.

High Elves turn three
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The Archers charged the small unit of Slaves, the Phoenix charged the large unit and the Reavers charged the WLC. The Prince sought protection in the other unit of Reavers.

12/6. I failed a two dice Spirit Leech at the BSB, ending a potentially huge magic phase. #-o

The Eagle Claw only managed to kill one Gutter Runner and the Sisters finished off one Stormfiend, putting two wounds on another.

In combat, the Archers broke their Slaves, wounding the Phoenix with the explosion (I really don’t understand the logic behind them exploding). The Phoenix won its combat, but the Slaves stuck. At the top, the Reavers killed the cannon, overrunning 10”.

Skaven turn three
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The Slaves charged the Reavers, who fled off the board.

My opponenet channelled, making it 10/5. I let through a four dice Cloud of Corruption, which killed the Eagle. I then dispelled something else and I let through Howling Warpgale.

The Gutter Runners killed the Eagle Claw, the cannon killed the Phoenix (I had a 4+ ward this turn) and the Stormfiends couldn’t shoot because they marched.

High Elves turn four
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The Phoenix Guards and Reavers charged into the flank of the Slaves.

5/4. He let through three dice Earthblood, which healed the Prince.

The Archers killed a single Gutter Runner.

I killed a good number of Slaves, but they stuck and reformed to face me.

Skaven turn four
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I channelled, making it 9/7. He threw three dice at one of the damage spells, I dispelled with four. I let through Skitterleap, allowing the Engineer to jump to safety. I dispelled the last spell.

After shooting, the Prince was left hanging on with one wound, but he and the Phoenix Guards broke the Slaves in combat, causing them to explode (again, why do they do this?!).

High Elves turn five
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The Prince downed his potion, charging into the bunker, while the Phoenix Guards went into the cannon.

10/6. He let through a three dice Miasma at the Clanrats, reducing their weapon skill by three. He then dispelled Iceshard at them and scrolled Earthblood.

Shooting continued to whittle away the Gutter Runners, but far too slowly.

In combat, the Clanrat champion challenged, I killed him and he held on steadfast. The Phoenix Guards reduced the cannon to kindling and reformed.

Skaven turn five
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He forgot the Assassin’s Potion of Strength this turn and the next. :D The Slaves charged the Archers though, and they got away.

I channelled again, making it 9/7 (again). He threw five dice at one of the damage spells and I (only just! We both got 20) dispelled it on four dice. A bit risky, I know. I let through Bless with Filth, giving the Clanrats poisoned attacks.

Shooting took a few wounds off the Phoenix Guards and the Archers.

I managed to kill the Warlord before he was able to strike, which was a big relief! The horse then killed a Clanrat. I lost by one, but stuck.

High Elves turn six
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Fearing the shooting of the Stormfiends, the Phoenix Guards charged the Stormvermin.

6/5. I threw two dice at Iceshard on the Clanrats, he dispelled with two dice. I then threw four dice at Earthblood, healing the Prince but miscasting and reducing the Loremaster to level 0. It didn’t matter though, since it was turn six.

The Phoenix Guards did a good number of wounds, but the Stormvermin stuck on steadfast and reformed to get more attacks on the Loremaster, who had already taken two wounds this turn. The Prince lost combat by one again, but he held and the Clanrats reformed.

Skaven turn six
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My opponent finally remembered to use the Potion of Strength. :) The Stormfiends failed their charge into the flank of the Phoenix Guards.

7/6. I used all my dice to dispel something (presumably one of the damage spells), so he could get through Bless with Filth on the Stormvermin.

He got five S4 AP wounds on the Loremaster. I saved one on armour, but I didn’t save any with wards and the Loremaster was dead. I still won, and he held. The Assassin finally revealed himself, challenging. He did one wound and I needed a six to save. Impossible, right? I got it on the re-roll. :) I wasn’t able to get past his 4+ ward (which is ridiculous), however, and lost the combat by five. It seemed like I’d used up all my insane luck, so the Prince broke and was run down. A victory to the Skaven.


Although it looks pretty bad, I don’t think I was far off winning. I few mistakes stand out:

1. Handling of the Stormfiends. I’ve never faced them, so I didn’t realise how utterly brutal they are. I deployed the Sisters over there to handle them and I think that was a good decision. They absolutely ripped through my helms though. I don’t know if I’d already deployed my helms when he placed them, but if I hadn’t I should definitely have put them over the opposite side of the board. Otherwise, I suppose I could have hung back out of range for a bit and let my Sisters and Eagle Claw take them down to a more manageable size.

2. Charging the Phoenix into the Slaves. I forgot Skaven could shoot into combat with Slaves. Perhaps I was a little unlucky, as he still had four wounds and a 4+ ward. On the other hand, it was risky, so maybe I should have just got into his rear and hidden behind the hill.

3. I’m not sure about this one. Should I have charged the Phoenix Guards into the Stormvermin in my turn six? I think probably not. The Stormfiends weren’t going to do that much damage, given my 4+ wards and even if he’d charged in with both units, assuming he rolled the same, I would have kept my Loremaster. I perhaps could have even taken the Loremaster out of the unit, hidden behind his lines and perhaps killed the Engineer with a magic missile.


Thanks for reading. I hope you enjoyed the report and please leave any comments you have. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#127 Post by Elithmar »

I had the opportunity to play against Elo, the Beastmen player from my game two of the tournament, on Tuesday, although this time he took a very tough Wood Elves list.

2400pts vs Wood Elves
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Loremaster, Ogre Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dispel Scroll
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
24 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
12 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle

Wood Elves
Level 4 High Spellweaver, Obsidian Lodestone, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
Level 4 Death Spellweaver, Dragonbane Gem, Sceptre of Stability
Glade Captain, Battle Standard Bearer, Asrai Spear, Shield, Standard of Discipline
14 Glade Riders, Standard Bearer, Banner of Swiftness
13 Glade Riders
8 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame (Characters in here)
8 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer, Gleaming Pennant
8 Wild Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Deployment
Image

Elo chose the bottom and started deploying. I knew his army was going to be hard to catch and whatever unit the characters joined would be extremely tough, with good protection against magic. I knew my shooting would be important here, but he started off with a quarter of his army off the board, so I would have an advantage in the first turn or two.

Spells
High – Soul Quench, Tempest, Arcane Unforging, Fiery Convocation
Death – Spirit Leech, The Caress of Laniph, Doom and Darkness, The Fate of Bjuna

Wood Elves turn one
Image

Sorry about the diagram, the Wood Elf units look to be moving from where they deployed, rather than where they vanguarded.

10/6. I let through a three dice Doom and Darkness on my helms. He then threw four dice at Unforging on my Prince, getting 20. I scrolled this. I then used all my dice to easily stop Caress of Laniph on him.

The Warhawks killed two reavers, forcing a panic test… which I failed. :o The reavers then ran through my whole line, luckily only causing the Sisters to flee as well. Still, not a good way to start the game.

High Elves turn one
Image

The fleeing units rallied and the eagle flew up to sacrifice himself. It looks like the archers moved forward slightly to get within short range.

11/6. I threw four dice at a 2D6 Fireball at the bunker (which had magic resistance 3). I miscast, but I did roll 11 hits. He rolled all his saves though, leaving me with five dice (and one Phoenix Guard exploded, cursing himself for standing next to the Loremaster). All of these I used to dispel Doom and Darkness.

Shooting performed poorly, killing only one of the Warhawks which were threatening the bolt throwers.

Wood Elves turn two
Image

The Warhawks predictably charged, as did the Wild Riders on my right. Thankfully, both units of Glade Riders decided to sit out of the battle for a while, until they could be sure which side was winning.

I channelled, making It 9/7. He miscast on three dice casting Doom and Darkness on the bus. Miscast counter: 1. :) He then proceed to roll four, killing five Wild Riders and putting a wound on the Spellweaver. He lost three dice, making it 3/7. I easily stopped Caress.

The combats went as expected. One unit of Warhawks overran off the field.

High Elves turn two
Image

I made a trap, but of course he had eagles, so it wasn’t worth much. The Archers, meanwhile, decided it would be a good idea just to stare at the Warhawks, rather than attempt to shoot them. Rabbit caught in headlights?

5/4. I dispelled Doom and Darkness.

Shooting was pathetic, killing a single Wild Rider. Another case of rabbits caught in headlights, I fear.

Wood Elves turn three
Image

The Sisters and Reavers double fled, while the Archers received the charge. One eagle blocked the Phoenix Guards, while the characters jumped ship and joined the newly arrived Glade Riders.

12/6. I dispelled a two dice Caress with three dice. He then threw four dice at Fate of Bjuna, miscasting again. Miscast counter: 2. :D This time it did a wound to each Spellweaver. He rolled three for Fate of Bjuna, doing nothing. He lost five dice, so I easily dispelled his last spell.

Shooting killed the Reavers and in combat the Archers were run down.

High Elves turn three
Image

I forgot to charge the eagle here, but it might have actually turned out better, because I was able to cast magic missiles at the Wild Riders too. The Sisters continued to flee and the helms reformed.

7/6. I threw four dice at Spirit Leech on his Death Spellweaver, but he dispelled with all six. I then cast a two dice Fireball at the eagle, killing it, and a one dice Shem’s at the Wild Riders, killing two.

Wood Elves turn four
Image

The Wild Riders charged and caught the Sisters, while the other unit of Glade Riders came on.

He channelled, making it 9/6. He threw four dice at Doom and Darkness on the Silver Helms, miscasting. Miscast counter: 3. This one killed the Death Spellweaver and put another wound on the High one.

The eagle was shot down, as were two Silver Helms.

High Elves turn four
Image

9/5. I threw two dice at a Fireball on the eagle, which he let through. I then cast Shem’s at it with three dice, this time killing it. I dispelled Doom and Darkness.

Wood Elves turn five
Image

7/4. He threw four dice at Tempest, I let it through and it hit three Phoenix Guards. I made their saves.

In combat, the Prince killed four Wild Riders, but his companions were so amazed by his skill that they themselves forgot to attack (the BSB failed to hit at all, while the others failed to wound). Six Silver Helms were slain, but the High Elves only lost combat by two and held.

High Elves turn five
Image

6/5. I threw three dice at what I think must have been Shem’s at the unit of three Warhawks, doing three wounds. He then dispelled a three dice 2D6 Fireball.

In combat the Wild Riders were wiped out, but not before another Silver Helm had fallen.

Wood Elves turn six
Image

9/5. He threw four dice at Arcane Unforging on my BSB and miscast. Miscast counter: 4. :lol: His Spellweaver was sucked into the Realm of Chaos, but not before the BSB was wounded and his Other Trickster’s Shard destroyed.

High Elves turn six
Image

6/4. I threw three dice at a Fireball at the close Warhawks, causing them to flee. I then threw three dice at a Spirit Leech at his BSB, but he dispelled it.

In the end, it was 1100-853, or a 12-8, to me.


Obviously it was unfortunate that Elo got four miscasts. He did play better than me, although I was very happy with the trap I set up in turn two, even if he could get out of it easily with an eagle. :lol: I made a big mistake in deployment, leaving a gap for his Warhawks so that my Reavers fled through nearly my whole army. I could even have corrected this with a vanguard. His was a very fast army with very dangerous magic. I really need to find a way to combat these armies. At least I had more shooting than when I faced Dark Elves a few games back, but I probably need more still (and I need to protect it better). Another thought is that I could have angled my Phoenix in deployment to cover my flank, so it could have charged his Wild Riders on turn one (or at least keep them from moving up so aggressively, which is more likely).

SpellArcher was just talking about Death magic, and here I came up against one such army. :) I think perhaps I need to change the equipment on the Prince, because he’s really vulnerable as he is. I didn’t lose any characters here, but I could easily have done. I also need to keep my scroll for longer. Using it on turn one to stop Unforging (definitely not the most dangerous spell he had) was a mistake.

So, how should I deal with these fast armies? Please give me some advice on this and thanks for reading. I hope you enjoyed it. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#128 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Hi Eli, that's a tough looking list, is death magic prevalent over there or something?
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#129 Post by Elithmar »

Hi Ele, haven't heard from you for ages. Has the End Times and Age of Sigmarines made you more of a lurker? :)

It's indeed a tough list. This was fought on UB and Elo's from Germany. I really have no idea what the meta's like locally. I only used to get 'real' games when I went to my local GW store and I can hardly play 8th there now, so I'm stuck on UB for now. The 'UB meta' seems to be pretty tough though, with most people playing ETC rules.

I actually had the dubious pleasure of being able to play Elo again with the same list yesterday, so I could test a bit of a different way of dealing with the army. I've written the report, but I'll wait to see if anyone else comments on the last two games before I post it.

Thanks! :)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#130 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I saw the report SM did with you with a new Asrai list, I've been doing a lot of other system stuff lately, I recently went to Crusade though, which is Fantasy. I'm enjoying the look of the 9th Age, most of my club mates have gone back to Mordheim, which I don't disapprove of. We should tee up a UB game sometime, been ages~
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#131 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

You are playing a lot these days! One might thing there is no such a thing as dead 8th edition :)

It also looks like Skaven are popular again and with the addition of Space-Rats also known as Storm-fiends they are even more dangerous than before. Lots of bodies to kill, not so easy to break (Ld10 everywhere!) and very dangerous magic and shooting. The army of your opponent looks quite familiar to what I have seen so far, maybe with the difference of no Screaming Bell.

The good thing about this army is that it needs to stick together so you can really move around the flanks and try to hunt these shooters. He didn't pick 13th spell which is good news for your Loremaster.

I looked at the deployment and I am a little surprised you left one of the bolt throwers unguarded knowing Gutter Runners are going to hunt it down as a first target. With poisonous attacks they can take out war machine in a single turn of shooting.

In a similar game I chose Cannons as targets for spells and shooting. It is risky but with Earthing Rod I took as many dice as I could to cast 3d6 fireball, it went through with IF and I killed the cannon. Then got very lucky with bolt throwers and took another one. You could do the same here with at least one of the war machines. Because it looks like the one in the middle was not blocked by any units so with shooting you could hit on 4+. Swarms are annoying but more difficult to hit (skirmish) and you are really wasting shots on them.

I also think you should have moved Silver Helms to the left after moving PG towards the enemy, maybe with Swift reform. That would keep you away from the Fiends and let you get into combat, where you are safer, quicker.

In terms of casting with Loremaster and ending magic phase too early I try to use 3 dice for 10+ spells. It is not a guarantee but helps. In the case where you have 12 dice it is also more important to do so as you keep the magic going and still have dice to cast other spells.

Can you elaborate on how Frostheart died? Because I remember you have to divide the hits between the enemy and the slaves.

Another situation, when PG charged Slaves, did you kill enough to break steadfast?

I must say you played very well despite heavy losses at the beginning. A pity a few things didn't work out but it was close. In the end the fact you lost all characters means that you lost too many points for just 3 models.

I wonder how it could have been done better but it is a hard army to face no matter what. In addition to what you said I would just repeat that I think you should target Cannons instead of Swarms and deploy shooters in a way that does not allow targeting bolt throwers so easily.

Good experience though! Thanks for posting!

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#132 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I was about to play against that list in the UB tournament but Elo decided to change it because he thought it is too hard :)

Actually, this one is a little different, I remember he used more glade riders and no warkahwk riders. I think his BSB had Hail of Doom Arrow too. It's a tough army to face (seems like you are picking tough opponents lately, soft MSU being an exception :)) as it is fast, hard to catch but can deliver the punch with Wild Riders or with magic/shooting.

Seems like you didn't vanguard revaers at all, why is that so?

You had 1 turn of shooting for Bolt throwers. You either had to focus fire (shooting and magic) on a single Warhawk to hopefully destroy it but the second one was there to hunt down the war machines. Why didn't you focus your efforts on Wild Riders instead (not the ones with characters)?

In terms of magic, 2d6 fireball is not the only spell that harms units at the distance. Iceshard does it for Warhawks due to lore attribute, Burning Gaze is good too as d6 can be risky for the opponent. When you open magic phase with 2d6 it is easier to make the priority for the opponent. On the other hand, with 4 dice I would actually go against other WR too and finish them off with bolt throwers.

In turn 2 I think the move of WR2 was illegal. People who use fast cavalry kind of assume they can go anywhere. It is not the case because you have to be able to do the free reform properly. First, he would have to turn them away from eagle and form single line. It is already not possible due to 1" rule and not enough space to make such a long line. Reform is always done around the center of the regiment. It is not a teleportation :)

I like Elo but this time I must say he didn't play a good game. Yes, he managed to kill his wizards for you but that is not the reason he lost (or not the main). He was just moving his units at random, they never cooperated, never tried doing combined charges. He is really used to running around and sniping characters with death magic. That may be a good idea against Chaos Warriors but not in general.

How to combat such armies? I don't really know because I haven't faced them but I think concentration of fire is important because that gets rid of his units. Technically it is also possible to deploy Helms and PG wider to cover more ground. Don't let any gaps in between to avoid sneaky fast cavalry moving in between the units. If he offers the eagle take it and reform again.

You might also want to deploy in two lines, with shooters on elevated positions and combat troops in front of them to prevent any attacks coming through.

I think it was possible to deploy like that here.

In the end, the victory is always sweet so congratulations on taking one against such a nasty army!

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#133 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks for the comments! As usual, your detailed advice is very welcome, Swordmaster. :)

Ele, 9th Age does look good. It even seems that it'll make a chariot prince much more viable. :P I'll have to make a list when the beta comes out.

Swordmaster,

Skaven game

I am playing a lot! It's been my summer holiday and I won't have much time for gaming for a while, so I got in as many games as I could.

The Stormfiends were a big surprise. If I play Skaven again (hopefully after they get toned down by 9th Age, though) dealing with them will definitely be my first priority.

I placed the Eagle Claws on both flanks partly because I didn't know where he was going to deploy everything and to give me good LoS. I knew the Gutter Runners would come on, but I decided before the game started that I needed to move forward and couldn't waste time keeping troops back to protect the RBTs. I decided just to get as many shots out of them as possible before they died.

It would be a much better idea to focus on the cannon. The swarms had 10 wounds and, as you say, skirmish, so I was wasting shots. Still, they could get in the way and I didn't want to charge them in turn two because that would allow him to charge my reavers, which I really wanted to get into the cannon. I suppose I could have done this the other way round, shooting the cannon and charging the swarm.

I think the Frostheart died to a WLC, which also killed some of his slaves. Although, one of the observers thought that he shouldn't be randomising hits between the slaves and the enemy, which really seems overpowered. I know the rule changed with the FAQ, but I don't know how. Again, I'm looking forward to 9th Age to clear this up.

The Phoenix Guards didn't break steadfast, I think, but there's also the problem that Skaven add a point of leadership for each rank.

Wood Elves game

I'm not picking the tough opponents, it's just anyone who'll play me on UB has a tough list (and even you, who in theory have a 'soft' list, are a highly skilled player).

I didn't vanguard because I didn't see any need to. Where would you have vanguarded? As I mentioned, I could have corrected my deployment on my left, but I didn't realise my mistake there at the time. I was also considering charging with my reavers on that flank into his warhawks, but decided against it. I could have probably done it if my reavers had spears, but I'm tight. ;)

I focused all my shooting on one unit of warhawks, but didn't think about using magic too (I was moving the Phoenix Guards to face his wild riders, as I expected my shooting units to be able to handle the warhawks). My sisters would certainly have helped if they hadn't fled.

It's good to hear that perhaps I would have had a better chance if he hadn't done the illegal move. :)

I'm afraid it is the reason he lost. :) It was a fairly minor win, so without the points for the characters, I would have lost.

I ought to be more flexible with my formations. I always keep my units in the same formation (except the sisters, who I sometimes have 6x2 and sometimes 4x3), but that's an interesting thought to spread them wider. Thanks, I'll have to remember that!

Thanks for taking (a lot of!) time to comment. Your advice is always useful. I just have to remember it when I next play! :D
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#134 Post by Elithmar »

This game was another against Elo, with the same lists on both sides. I’d done a bit of thinking between games, so I had a few ideas of what to do differently. I apologise for forgetting to save the chat from this game, so I don’t know the details of magic or shooting. I’ll try to work out as much as I can.

2400pts vs Wood Elves
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Loremaster, Ogre Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dispel Scroll
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
24 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
12 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle

Wood Elves
Level 4 High Spellweaver, Obsidian Lodestone, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
Level 4 Death Spellweaver, Dragonbane Gem, Sceptre of Stability
Glade Captain, Battle Standard Bearer, Asrai Spear, Shield, Standard of Discipline
14 Glade Riders, Standard Bearer, Banner of Swiftness
13 Glade Riders
8 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame (Characters in here)
8 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer, Gleaming Pennant
8 Wild Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Deployment
Image

Elo chose the bottom again and I began deploying. I was leaning towards castling up with my Eagle Claws behind the lake and I instantly decided on this plan when I saw him put a unit of Warhawks on the opposite flank.

Spells
High – Soul Quench, Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds, Arcane Unforging
Death – Spirit Leech, The Caress of Laniph, Doom and Darkness, The Fate of Bjuna

High Elves turn one
Image

I was actually hoping to go second this time, because most of my shooting was out of range, but I didn’t want to break formation. Instead I just covered my flank with the Phoenix, brought the Eagle into the castle and repositioned my Reavers slightly.

Wood Elves turn one
Image

Here I think I scrolled a Death spell (Caress most likely), but he got Arcane Unforging through, destroying the Dragonhelm and wounding the Prince. He then boosted the bunker’s movement with Hand of Glory.

High Elves turn two
Image

My bus was in range of the Warhawks for a charge here. I would need to roll 12, or possibly 11, but it was definitely worth it. If I’d made it, I could have overrun into the bunker and it would have been game over. As it was, the helms stumbled forwards six inches. Nevertheless, it was a great opportunity and was certainly worth the try.

I managed to get Wyssan’s off on the helms, providing some protection against Death spells. I possibly got a magic missile off as well, on the right Warhawks, and I think Elo dispelled Earthblood. Shooting managed to put a few wounds on to the Warhawks and Wild Riders.

Wood Elves turn two
Image

One unit of Glade Riders came on, while the rest of the army repositioned. One unit of Warhawks made a break for the shooters.

Unfortunately I wasn’t able to stop Caress this turn, so the Spellweaver caressed my Prince to death. Painful. Meanwhile the newly arrived Glade Riders put a wound on to an Eagle Claw.

High Elves turn three
Image

More repositioning and the Reavers ran into the wood, two tripped up and the others ran away. Huh. Shooting was effective this turn, panicking the sole remaining Warhawk and decimating the Glade Riders.

Wood Elves turn three
Image

The other Glade Riders joined the battle, as they were joined by the Eagles in their rush up the flank. Shooting was focussed on the Archers and Sisters.

High Elves turn four
Image

Both Eagles went down and a few more wounds were put on to the Warhawks. The Frostheart eagerly looked down the Wood Elf flank for targets.

Wood Elves turn four
Image

The Wood Elves continued to avoid combat, while their light troops swarmed towards the Eagle Claws. Could I take them down in time?

High Elves turn five
Image

The Frostheart continued to look for targets. On the other flank, the Sisters wheeled to face the Warhawks, helping to destroy one unit and weaken the other. Elo let through Spirit Leech on his general and two wounds got past his ward save, but they were absorbed by High Magic tokens. I was going to put Iceshard Blizzard on the large unit of Glade Riders, but we weren’t sure at first whether it would affect their shooting, as they have Trueflight, so I instead put it on the bunker, to reduce the general’s leadership.

Wood Elves turn five
Image

The Warhawk went into the first Eagle Claw, as the Wood Elves again avoided the Phoenix and shot down the Eagle and some Sisters. I have a rules question here: I assumed Iceshard Blizzard would follow the Wild Riders, but would it? Or would the characters continue to be affected by it (I assume this is right, although the Glade Riders would not be affected).

Here Elo got Doom and Darkness on the helms. In combat, the Warhawk and Sea Guard crew-elf had a pillow fight.

High Elves turn six
Image

Not fancying my chances with the helms against the Wild Riders without the Prince, they ran as far as they could go, with three tripping up in the ruins. I forgot Doom and Darkness was Remains in Play, which could have been crucial here. Elsewhere, I managed to take down the Glade Riders threatening my Eagle Claw and the Warhawk killed the other one, although it took a wound in the process.

Wood Elves turn six
Image

As one observer pointed out, I should have just fled with the Silver Helms, but I didn’t want to risk the dangerous terrain again and the charge looked long enough (he needed 10). He made it, however, although I was a bit tight here and wouldn’t allow him to make any other charges because he’d already completely this one. Well, I was getting a bit desperate at this point, I’m sorry to say. :(

In magic, my Loremaster was killed with Death Magic, the Sisters were almost completely destroyed by Soul Quench and then in combat the Wild Riders broke my helms, leaving only the champion to flee, who escaped. I don’t know if it would have helped, dispelling Doom and Darkness, but it certainly would have preserved their points if I’d fled, as pointed out.

In the end, it was a pretty big win to him, with about an 800 points difference.


It was depressing to lose against the same list (I would have lost the other one if not for Elo’s multiple miscasts) and I must confess I was quite angry immediately after the game. It was definitely a shame, after what I think was much better deployment on my part. What went wrong then?

Well, I was lucky his Death Magic didn’t do more last game. This game, I witnessed its full potential and it’s pretty terrifying! I’ve found in a lot of games recently, not just against this list, that my Prince needs a ward save. Unfortunately that means dropping the Giant Blade down to the Ogre Blade, but with Wyssan’s and Spirit Leech I can probably still manage against high toughness targets.

There’s no hope of catching this list, I’ve come to realise. In that case, I shouldn’t break out from the castle and try to chase him, as my army simply becomes fragmented and is easier to pick apart. Instead, I should have maintained the castle (although still attempting the long charge on turn two), preventing rear charges as in turn six and protecting my shooters for even longer with the threat of a charge from the Frostheart. This way, I would have kept his units at arm’s length, allowing my shooting units more time to finish the job of destroying his light troops. I would have still taken casualties from Trueflight, but the Warhawks wouldn’t have been able to charge the Eagle Claws.

On the subject of shooting, I think I need more. I want to go back up to two units of nine Sisters and possibly even add in another Eagle Claw, or at least the Reaver Bow. Against lists like these, it’s my only chance of winning and even against more conventional lists, there are always targets which require shooting down before combat.

This is probably going to be my last game for a long time, as I’m going back to school. I’ve enjoyed having tons of games over the summer and I hope you’ve enjoyed reading about them. I’d like to think I’ve improved too, but I’m not so sure. It started off brilliantly with my wins in the tournament, then trailed off a bit as I’ve seemed to return to my losing streak. I’m hoping there’ll be a proper tournament I can attend next year, although it needs to be late enough for me to finally finish my army.

Anyway, thank you very much for reading all of my reports and please leave your comments on this game. I appreciate any advice you can give. :)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#135 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

I really enjoy your reports. I know it takes a lot of effort to write one and I also know that it is a great feeling when people not only read and enjoy it but also comment. Hence, as a fellow battle reporter I am happy I happen to have a little more time to do so now.

Your reports are very interesting too. They are well presented, clear and easy to follow. I know it is not easy to write reports after defeats so I wanted to thank you for that too.

I hope you know that but I wanted to highlight that my feedback is about sharing my observations. I may have a little more experience but I am still learning new things myself. Hence, whatever I write is simply some food for thought or just questions because I am curious why did you do what you did.

I am happy you consider my comments worthy but it is your own reports, games and analysis that make you a better player. And you are definitely a better player than the one who came back after a long break just a few months ago. Hopefully, despite school and responsibilities connected with attending classes you will find time for a game and a report once in a while too.

Now, let's see about that last game of yours!

I like your deployment a lot because it is a good defensive position but allows you to counter whatever approaches too close while giving you good line of sight with the shooters and magic. Very good vanguard with Reavers so that they are not easy points but can be annoying for the forces that want to advance around the hill.

The only thing that kind of occurred to me was to reinforce Archers with Phoenix so that your flanks are secured. If your enemy moved to the other flank flying phoenix can switch towards that place quickly. While sitting behind the Archers it can jump at any unit trying to approach from that direction.

In general, I agree that this army is hard to catch but here is the thing - don't! You had a good defensive position, you could keep threatening the charges but started moving your units away from each other. It is ok with Reavers (although I would avoid the woods in the future if you don't have to be there) even if they could be kept closer to your lines. But Phoenix flew too far away and stopped being a threat to some of the regiments. And you can still hurt him at a distance as he has to come closer to get spells into range or shooters to get some targets.

I know losing the Prince was tough and when the enemy avoids you it is more frustrating, however, he is counting on you to get impatient and spread the formation where he can take your units apart.

I think you did great until turn 4 but then things started to fall apart. First of all, remember you can expand the frontage. If you did that with Silver Helms his Riders would have risked staying in their front arc. That means he would not go that far and behind your lines as Wild Riders do not receive the charges well (only S4, no re-rolls, no additional attack due to devastating charge) while you can support your unit with magic.

In your turn 6, instead of moving forward, you should have swift reform and move towards the East. If you could not clear the the line of sight, park the eagle and divert riders so that they cannot hit the helms. No other unit would be able to catch them anyway. Or if swift reform is not good, just wheel and march away.

Sisters of Avelorn should have moved towards another Wild Riders and simply take one for the team so he cannot charge anything more either.

It would not be enough to win you the battle but at least you would have saved around 600 points in that SH regiment alone. Beat WE with their own medicine, avoidance!

You can also try and read the player. You have played Elo before and you can see that he is a very careful and shy player. He has powerful hitters in the form of Wild Riders but he never uses them unless attacking from the rear or flank. He does not like sacrificing units. You can use that to your advantage when anticipating the moves of the enemy. Or setting up the traps :)

Stay positive, keep practicing as much as you can and don't give up. You had a few defeats but it is not like you could not put up a fight, you learned things and you will use them to your advantage next time.

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#136 Post by Elithmar »

You're a lot better than me, Swordmaster. :) I never think about half of what you suggest. It is true that being forced to look back over the game to make a report sufficiently detailed is very useful for learning where one went wrong and how the game could have been played better. Still, your ideas for how to take down certain threats or where a certain unit should have moved are often things I'd never considered, so thank you for continuing to comment. :) Of course I'll still try to get in games every now and then and I suppose it's probably good that there won't be so much to read here for a while! I'm certainly going to have to give the chariot prince a try again with 9th Age.

I agree that I shouldn't chase him. This was my natural response, but in this second game you can see that I started out thinking more about keeping a strong formation and letting him come to me, winning the shooting war. The problem was keeping to this plan! It was really just a lack of focus or concentration, where I forgot I should be keeping my units together. Impatience indeed! :D

It's true what you say about Elo. It's probably a symptom of the armies he plays too, since this Wood Elf army is really meant to avoid and only engage when there is a clear superiority. His Beastmen army had perhaps a less subtle approach, but he still had to be very careful with his raiders and harpies to block charges and only engage when it was on his terms.

It's also a good point that I've certainly had a chance in most of my recent games. Against Skaven, it was largely a misjudgement about the power of the Stormfiends and the mistake of charging the Phoenix into slaves which brought defeat. In this second game against Wood Elves, I started out with a good deployment and plan, but then just became impatient and didn't stick to it. I feel I've got a better idea of how to handle avoidance armies now (don't chase them!), so that should help in future.

Thanks for the suggestions about how I could have positioned/used my units differently. I have read them and I'll try to bear them in mind in future.

Thanks again for spending so much time commenting in depth. While I can't give as good advice, I try to read your reports too and at least show that they're appreciated. :)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#137 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Ah yea, Spring, you'll be back at school now, and you have other hobbies too right, Music and Martial Arts was it?
Protecting your Prince from Death sniping, Death isn't huge in my meta so I haven't had to deal with it much.
My Prince has Dragon Armour, and my Bus has the Spellshield so he has a 5++, which while not reliable, better than nothing.
My list also has a lot more shooting than you, which makes my enemies approach me a lot differently.
I need to get back into Batreps, it's been far too long.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#138 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

I am really glad my comments bring something interesting for you to consider. I always simply wanted to share my observations so it is great to know they are good food for thoughts. :)

As I said, I really enjoyed your reports, I know they take time and effort to prepare and wanted to post something to hopefully spark some discussion. And as I had some spare time to do so I gladly posted my feedback. :)

Cheers!
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
Posts: 3669
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#139 Post by Elithmar »

Ele, you're standing on your head, it's Autumn. ;) And no, not music, but Taekwondo yes.

It's a good point actually that I could make do with giving another character magic resistance, allowing me to still take the Giant Blade. I was also thinking I might give the BSB the Banner of the World Dragon. I'm really just going to have to wait to see what 9th Age does. I'm certainly not happy about us losing our rerolls though. :x
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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