The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#91 Post by Elithmar »

I had a game in the local GW store on Thursday against the new Lizardmen. We probably went past turn 6 but we lost count. Not really sure who won. I reckon if we'd stopped at turn 6 (or even when we did stop - we didn't have time to add up points because other people wanted the table) he would have won, but if we'd kept going for a few more turns, I might have won.

I took:

Loremaster, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, 4+ Ward, Scroll
BSB, Reaver Bow
27 Archers, Mus
5 Reavers, Bows and Spears
19 Phoenix Guards, FC
10 White Lions, St, Mus, Gleaming Pennant
5 Shadow Warriors
Eagle Claw
Eagle Claw

I would have taken an extra unit of reavers and a lot less archers but the 10 reavers I'd ordered only arrived that morning (as if they were taunting me! :x ) so I hadn't had time to put them together.

He took:

Slann, 4+ Ward
20-30 Saurus
~8 Skink Skirmishers
~20 Temple Guards
Bastiladon
Stegadon

I wanted to kill the stegadon and bastiladon with shooting and magic, hold up the saurus with my redirectors and take on the temple guards with my phoenix guards (I wanted to kill the slann to shut down his magic phase). Well, I shot and searing doom-ed a few wounds off the steg and then it charged my white lions, killed 4 with its impact hits and was finished off in return. The temple guards charged my phoenix guards on turn 2 or three, but the slann miscast and took out most of his unit with the large template, so that helped me a lot. However, the loremaster decided to miscast a turn or two later, killing himself. By this time the bastiladon was in combat with my phoenix guards too. He challenged my champion with his slann so they had a pillow fight for the rest of the game (I had him down to a wound at one point but he used apotheosis!) and the bastiladon ground down my unit whilst I ground him down too. I had it down to a wound as well, but then he finished off the unit apart from the champion, who was locked in combat with the slann. If only I could have shot the bastiladon off at that point!

The saurus had eaten my shadow warriors, reaver (the other four were dealt with by the bastiladon's laser) and white lions (the standard bearer held them up for ages as he whiffed his attacks and I held on stubborn!). When they were eventually out of combat, the slann 'walk-ed' them around the building in the centre so they could deal with my archers. My eagle claws took off a few models and the archers did really well in combat. At the end of the game, there was only the command group left of the saurus and I had 11 archers. I'd fed my BSB to them to hold them up for a turn.

So when we finished, I had left:

My phoenix guards (1 left!)
Archers
Eagle claws

He had:

Slann
Saurus
Bastiladon

I reckon it was a win to him. I'd lost my general and BSB too.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#92 Post by Elithmar »

Well, no harm in quadruple posting seeing as how no one else seems to want to post. ;)

Loremaster, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, 4+ Ward, Scroll
BSB, Reaver Bow


Back to the Book, I think. The scroll was handy, but when I'm paying all of those points on magic, I want to have a decent magic phase. If I just wanted a scroll, I could just have a mage and save loads of points. I think I need to sometimes jump him out of the phoenix guards before combat. It would have really helped in this game, meaning I could still use searing doom or spirit leech to take down the bastiladon or stegadon before they got to the safety of combat. I could just deploy him with the archers, but I might not be able to soon. Read on... ;)

I want to try the cavalry BSB again. I only really have one combat unit in the phoenix guards, so if they get held up for too long, I'm in trouble. If I had a star lance BSB with 8 or so helms, I'd have a pretty good unit that can take down heavily armoured and tough foes. The reaver bow doesn't really do much.

27 Archers, Mus
5 Reavers, Bows and Spears


Well I only took so many archers because I didn't have enough reavers. However, now I can take two units of reavers, and either 17 or so archers or some silver helms. I'm going to try the helms with the BSB for a bit, although I might find that I want the possible loremaster bunker of the archers back.

19 Phoenix Guards, FC
10 White Lions, St, Mus, Gleaming Pennant
5 Shadow Warriors


With an extra unit of reavers, I won't need the shadow warriors to redirect. I really want to use them as more than just redirectors, but I think I'd need a character with them to make them a decent combat unit. Something to try at some point, maybe. Not now, though.

The lions are another combat threat, but I can't really keep both them and the phoenix guards at a decent size without dropping something else. I think I'll just drop them and beef up the phoenix guards again.

Eagle Claw
Eagle Claw


I love them. However, I'm wondering whether sisters might be better. If I'm using multi-shot (which I often do), I'd only lose one shot, but they'd be hitting more often. Now I do lose the range and the AP against anything but forces of destruction and they are flaming so no good against DPs etc. Hmm, I think I'll keep the eagle claws, althought if I have some points left, I might squeeze in a few sisters. I could even have one of each.

Revised list coming soon. Please post your own comments in the meantime. Thanks. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#93 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Only four posts? You'll never beat me~
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#94 Post by Jimmy »

Whilst I can't really comment on the list because I've been out of the loop for so long, the White Lions look like a bit of a weak link/waste of points to me. Wouldn't more bodies account for more in that unit?

Why not the flexibility of two units of archers?

When's the next game?
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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#95 Post by Elithmar »

Yeah, white lions aren't great in small numbers, especially now without re-rolls. As I said, they're going. I was just trying the lion cube for once. :P

Two units would be better, but I'd prefer to have the extra unit of reavers. However, the big unit can be used as a melee unit if it has to - they'd be alright with wildform or something.

Back at school now, so not soon. ;)

List is looking like this now. Not 100% happy with it though - if nothing else, I've got 7 points left! :?

Loremaster, Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Potion of Foolhardiness
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Reavers, Bows and Spears
5 Reavers, Bows and Spears
20 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
Eagle Claw
Eagle Claw
6 Sisters of Avelorn

Characters: 490
Core: 404
Special: 375
Rare: 224

Total: 1493


Maybe drop an eagle claw for 4 more phoenix guards and another sister?
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#96 Post by Elithmar »

It’s been a long time since I last had a game of Warhammer. The fact that my last post in this thread was September 2013 gives an idea of scale. Anyway, I decided to take part in an online tournament on Universal Battle, organised on warhammer-board.de. It’s a three game tournament, with two weeks for each game and ETC rules. My first game was against Aem and I was really dreading facing his dark elves. Bear in mind that this is my first game for almost two years, so I was expecting to make quite a few mistakes!

2400pts vs Dark Elves
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
Level 4 Shadow Archmage, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Harbinger
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Harbinger
25 Phoenix Guards, Standard Bearer, Musician
17 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Standard Bearer, Musician
9 Sisters of Avelorn
9 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle

Dark Elves
Dreadlord, Black Dragon, Lance, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Cloak of Twilight, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone
Level 4 Life Supreme Sorceress, Black Dragon, Dispel Scroll, The Black Amulet
12 Witch Elves, Full Command
12 Witch Elves, Full Command
7 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows
7 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows
8 Shades
10 Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks
10 Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks

Looking at his list, I was pretty worried. Those dragons could really make a mess if I didn’t take them down quickly, but then there are so many fast, dangerous units that it would be difficult to prioritise targets for shooting. With a few days to form a plan, this is what I came up with.

I really wanted to get rid of the dark riders and shades first, as these looked really dangerous to my shooters and small units. I also wanted to focus shooting on the two dragons as quickly as possible, aiming to at least get enough wounds off the dragons so I could finish them off in combat before they could strike. I wasn’t worried about the witch elves or the warlocks (much) since these were, although still dangerous, at least a little less mobile. A further worry was that the sorceress might get dwellers, which really worried me given my cavalry bus.

The scenario was meeting engagement.

Deployment
Image

Spells
Shadow Archmage – Miasma, Withering, Penumbral Pendulum, Pit of Shades

Life Supreme Sorceress – Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth

Aem actually rolled dwellers, but chose not to take it. I was relieved at the time, although it probably wouldn’t have been such a big deal given that ETC rules allow a look out sir against it.

Dark Elves turn one
Image

The warlocks charged the reavers with bows and the dark riders charged the reavers with spears. I forgot that only one unit had bows, so I chose stand and shoot with the reavers with spears and killed three dark riders! I really should learn my own army list and pay attention to which units I deploy where. Everything else except the sorceress moved up.

8/5. I stopped a four dice doombolt on the bolt thrower with three dice. I couldn’t, however, stop soulblight on the reavers in combat with the dark riders.

Shooting managed to kill three swordmasters. In combat, the warlocks finished off their reavers for two casualties (I think one was from stand and shoot) and the dark riders left only one reaver alive. Luckily for me, he passed his break test.

High Elves turn one
Image

The silver helms charged the dark riders, losing three knights to dangerous terrain (clearly need more riding lessons), the eagle blocked the warlocks and the shooters moved on to the hill.

5/5. He let through miasma on the shades (two dice) to stop withering on the dragon. Their ballistic skill was reduced by two.

The shooting in the north was all concentrated on the dark riders, leaving only one. The sisters and bolt thrower in the south managed two wounds on the dragon. Combat saw the final reaver killed and the dark riders reduced to two. They fled, but the silver helms restrained. I forgot that they started with seven so they weren’t under 25% of their starting size. Was it a mistake not to pursue?

Dark Elves turn two
Image

The warlocks had no trouble killing the eagle and nor did the dreadlord with the bolt thrower. The dark riders rallied. In the north, the warlocks and shades charged the swordmasters, while the dark rider failed to reach the bolt thrower and the witch elves failed their frenzy test. Luckily for them, the archers didn’t kill any with their stand and shoot shots.

7/4. I let throne of vines on two dice through. I’m not sure what else was attempted, but I stopped it easily.

The combats in the south went as expected, but in the north the dark elves failed to kill all of the swordmasters before they could strike (I forgot that swordmasters now strike in initiative order. I’m not sure how confident I would have been if I’d remembered. Definitely something to consider in future elves vs elves games). Five swordmasters remained, enough to wipe out the shades.

High Elves turn two
Image

The silver helms charged the warlocks.

5/3. I used all my dice for a pendulum, but it was scrolled.

Shooting saw the two units of dark riders finished off and four witch elves killed. In combat, the swordmasters were finished off, while four silver helms and four warlocks died in the south. My champion was only saved because he was in a challenge with the warlock champion. I won, but the warlocks held.

Dark Elves turn three
Image

The warlocks charge the top sisters, who fled. They redirected into the archers and they held. The dragon, meanwhile, charged the bottom sisters, who failed their terror test and were caught. The dragon reformed to face my phoenix guards, but the diagram shows how I saw it. For some reason sometimes UB glitches and one player doesn’t see a unit move.

7/5. I dispelled something with four dice, possibly soulblight. He then used three dice to regrow three witch elves, leaving them down only one. I think he used his last die to get flesh to stone on the warlocks, which I couldn’t manage to dispel with only one die.

The warlocks easily killed the archers, overrunning into and destroying the sisters who had fled from the warlocks’ charge. The warlocks in the south finished off the last silver helm, but then the characters killed two and the warlocks fled. I reformed.

High Elves turn three
Image

The characters charged the witches, while the phoenix guards lined up for a pendulum on the dragon.

7/4. I threw four dice at pendulum and my opponent let me have it. The dragon and two witch elves were affected, but… everyone managed to jump out of the way… even the dragon. :( A three dice pit of shades failed.

Shooting knocked one more wound off the dragon. Halfway there! In combat, the dark elf champion challenged and my BSB accepted, easily killing the female elf. The prince then killed another four. The witch elves failed to reform.

Dark Elves turn four
Image

The dreadlord and witch elves charged the phoenix guards, but the witch elves failed.

9/6. I dispelled something, leaving us both three dice down. He then used regrowth to bring back the bottom witch elves (including the champion) and this allowed him to heal one of the dragon’s wounds. I dispelled whatever else he tried.

In combat, the archmage was killed but the dragon fluffed his attacks on the unit and the phoenix guards did two more wounds to the dragon (leaving it on two wounds, since he had healed one). The dragon then fled! In the other combat, the BSB killed the champion again the prince killed three witch elves. Again, they failed to reform.

High Elves turn four
Image

The phoenix guards, seeing the brilliant opportunity to kill the dragon, charged the witch elves.

Naturally there was no magic for me anymore. I really wish, however, that I’d remembered to dispel throne of vines in my turn. A fairly minor point, but it would still have helped to reduce the effectiveness of his magic phases.

In shooting, I gambled on the dragon being run down, so I shot at the warlocks instead and killed one. In the bottom combat I think I killed all but one witch elf. Now, this would have been the standard bearer and so there was really no need to pursue, exposing my flank to the sorceress’ dragon, but I didn’t think of this immediately so I pursued anyway. In the other combat, the phoenix guards lost six but killed eight witch elves, breaking them. Of course I pursued and I caught the dragon. :D

Dark Elves turn five
Image

8/6. He used regrowth to restore the warlocks to full strength. I don’t know what else he got through.

High Elves turn five
Image

The characters hid, the bolt thrower moved up and the phoenix guards turned round to take the charge. Again, I should have dispelled throne of vines here. I don’t think I could have got the phoenix guards out of the forward arc of the warlocks, but I probably could have got them far enough away to flee comfortably and then rally on my turn. I don’t know. Perhaps I should have kept the characters on the hill to charge the dragon on my turn. Either way, my reasoning here was that the phoenix guards couldn’t escape and so they might as well deny the enemy a flank. Any thoughts?

Dark Elves turn six
Image

Both units charged the phoenix guards.

5/3. I don’t know the details, but he got flesh to stone on the warlocks, making them T7 with throne of vines.

The phoenix guards focussed on the sorceress and the warlocks, doing nothing. In return, eleven phoenix guards died and they fled. The warlocks ran them down.

High Elves turn six
Image

As it was the last turn, I charged the warlocks. I couldn’t wound them with their T7 and the BSB suffered one wound, meaning I won by one. He held.



In the end, it was 1985-1685 to him, making it a 11-9 to him. However, one more point to him and it would have been a 12-8.

This could have been a lot worse than it was. With a very slight defeat, I should still be near the top of the lower half, going into game two. I was lucky that Aem had some bad luck, because I really made a lot of mistakes.

First of all, I should have learnt my list better! Although it probably didn’t make much difference, I had two units of 9 sisters in my list, whereas I only placed 8 and I only placed 16 swordmasters, instead of 17. This is probably because I made some slight alterations to my list after saving my army. Very minor issues, but it demonstrates how badly I played!

A silly mistake in deployment was to leave the reavers with spears exposed to a charge from the dark riders. I deployed second, so this was extremely sloppy. Simply placing them slightly further around the hill would have prevented a turn one charge.

I didn’t achieve much with my magic at all. As I’ve said, I should have used my own turns when I’d lost my archmage to dispel throne of vines. I should have probably positioned my archmage better so that I could threaten the dragons with pendulum earlier on, drawing out the scroll before I did.

I’m sure I made many more mistakes, but one more I want to comment on is the phoenix guards’ positioning in turn five. I’m not sure if they could have escaped, but perhaps the characters could have been on the hill to charge the dragon turn six. I don’t know. Still, if I hadn’t lost the phoenix guards, it would have been a draw, so definitely something to think about. I’d really like to hear what others think about this.

I have to thank Aem for a really fun and very bloody game. One possible mistake I can see is charging the shades turn two. I’m not sure about the probabilities but I have a feeling it was likely at least some swordmasters would remain and I could take casualties in such a way to maximise the number of attacks on the shades. I know he was trying to finish off the swordmasters before they could strike; however, I feel it might have been better to allow the more durable warlocks to charge alone.

Thanks a lot for reading this report; I look forward to reading any comments. Thanks also to Aem for a very enjoyable first game and to the spectators.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#97 Post by Loriel »

thanks for the report.

This was real grudge match ;)

I am not familiar with ETC so I will not make daring comments, nor you really wouldn't benefit from them anyway :P

one of the real odd things about warhammer rules is that in your turn 4 when you charged through the witch elf and got in base contact with allready fleeing model the rulebooks allows you to reform in this particular situation. which doesn't make any sense. This can be found on page 58.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#98 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

Thanks for taking time and writing up about the game! Great to know the almost forgotten art of writing the battle report is not completely lost in these dire times :)

You got a tough army to fight against but the quick look at the forces in the tournament showed that majority of them are hardcore anyway. It is very fast, with very strong magic and characters that do not give away points easily as you have to kill both, rider and mount to collect them. The potential weakness to exploit is lack of BSB so inflicting panic checks or even break tests can be a problem for Aem.

The map looks familiar, I think I had this one against Galharen and what is funny, we also played Meeting Engagement. You mentioned that Aem had initiative so that you knew where his army was but that he had much better chance to start first. It was safe to assume then he will start and move forward aggressively as despite some shooting potential, his army needs to be in combat quick.

That means you could have deployed a little bit further and use terrain features such as ruins to protect your troops from being easy shooting target as well as giving you more time before combats. You had good shooting capabilities provided you could focus it on a single target. I think you didn't use that advantage in the deployment to the fullest.

In turn 1 you discovered that your reavers can be charged but my question is, did any of you moved fast cavalry as vanguard? I assume Warlocks on the left and DR1 didn't because they charged turn 1. However, you could do it and the units on the right may have moved as well. Did they?

It might be due to a mistake or not checking that option before the first turn. However, even when learned that the enemy can charge, did you consider fleeing? For example, RS were not visible to any unit but DR1, if you fled, they would probably run to safety but if not, DR1 would not be able to reach any other target and would be in the open. The same with Warlocks, RB would probably flee out of the board but you would deny your opponent other targets and they might not even see anything for the purpose of magic.

In your turn 1 you decided not to pursue Dark Riders, why did you restrained? If the diagram is correct then there should be a chance to overrun into WE and you had advantage in that combat. You could also position PG better as it was predictable that Dragon would attack bolt thrower. PG faced to the center where there were no enemies, if they were facing bolt thrower Aem would have a dilemma, to attack it and be target of a counter or not and leave it free to shoot again.

Well done on not giving up and using the opportunities where they presented themselves! Although I guess you missed having a champion with PG to challenge that dragon and keep Archmage safe for some time :)

I think you could move PG better in turn 5 though. Even if you exposed the flank but moved away from the dragon you could remain steadfast. Then move your prince and bsb in a way that would keep them out of sight of the dragon and warlocks but in 12" from PG. It was also possible to do so in a way that allowed counter charge. In his last turn he cannot charge you with both and if he tried with worlocks you would hold, possibly reform and then counter with your mounted characters. You would have saved PG at least.

In the end it was a great game and despite mistakes you got a good result against tough opponent. I don't think Aem was unlucky as he risked some charges knowing he might get the dragon alone into combat for example. I think he got too impatient.

At the same time having pit of shades means you have a chance to get the dragon so I think I would try to cast it with the maximum number of dice allowed.

Thanks again for a great report!

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#99 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks both of you for the comments. It's very gratifying to know people have read a report, even if they haven't got any particular comments. :)

Loriel, thanks for that rule; I could certainly have used that.

Swordmaster, thanks for taking time to write up such a detailed response! Indeed, I hope people still make reports, whatever version of Warhammer they're going to play, even if it is a little harder to do diagrams with round bases.

I definitely should have deployed the reavers better so that they weren't visible. That was just sloppy. Also the swordmaster deployment should probably have been better, or perhaps I should have responded differently with them to his advance in turn 1. I don't think either of us used our vanguards, or perhaps he did in the north.

As regards fleeing, I should be more flexible about this. It always seems a waste fleeing off the board, but sometimes it might be the best reaction.

I think I didn't pursue the dark riders because I was thinking they would need snake eyes to rally. Of course, there were only seven in the unit, rather than eight, so this was again another silly mistake. Perhaps it was because I wanted to get rid of the warlocks.

With the PG, I would have liked a champion, although in the event it actually worked out better as I broke the dragon. I was really trying to fit as much into this army as possible, so the champions had to go. If I remembered to take the archmage out of the unit more often, it might not be a big deal. In response to your plan for turn 5, there's nothing really to say except you're a lot better player than I am. :P I simply don't think of these things. Of course, one way to improve is to get feedback from good players and remember it for the next game, so thank you for taking the time to comment. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#100 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

I like reading reports as much as I like to write them. I know how much effort it takes so if I can I want to add some comments because it is the best way to show gratitude to the reporter. Even if it is a short feedback or simply "thanks for writing!" it is a great boos to the motivation level and keeps people going.

Just a comment on champions. It is perfectly legal to decline the challenge with a champion and still use him in the attacks. In that particular game you would have gained one more attack and kept all the benefits you received.

Do you plan to write a report from your second game against Elo?

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#101 Post by Elithmar »

Of course I plan to write a report. In fact, here it is! :P

My second game of the tournament was against Elo and his beastmen. His list is quite unusual (although I don’t know much about beastmen. Perhaps this is standard!) and promised to be a tough challenge.

2400pts vs Beastmen
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
Level 4 Shadow Archmage, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Harbinger
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Harbinger
25 Phoenix Guards, Standard Bearer, Musician
17 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Standard Bearer, Musician
9 Sisters of Avelorn
9 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle

Beastmen
Doombull, General, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Crown of Command, Talisman of Perservation, Dragonhelm
Doombull, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Arabyan Carpet, Armour of Destiny, Shield
Doombull, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Gnarled Hide, Sword of Swift Slaying, The Other Trickster’s Shard, Dragonbane Gem, Armour of Fortune
Gorebull, Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance
Slugtonque, Undeath
Level 1 Shadow Bray Shaman, Dispell Scroll
Level 1 Shadow Bray Shaman, Chalice of Dark Rain
10 Gor Herd, Mark of Slaanesh, Musican, Standard
10 Gor Herd, Mark of Slaanesh, Musican, Standard
10 Ungor Herd, Musican, Standard, Champion
10 Ungor Herd, Musican, Standard, Champion
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Ungor-Raider, Slaanesh, Musican
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

Again, the scenario was meeting engagement. Elo picked the top and I deployed first, taking the first turn.

Deployment
Image

Slugtongue’s attack managed to kill the bottom eagle claw and do a wound each to the archers and swordmasters.

Spells
Shadow Archmage – Miasma, Withering, Penumbral Pendulum, Pit of Shades

Slugtongue – Ryze, Morkharn
Bray Shamans – Miasma

Both the bray shamans took miasma, Slugtongue got two summoning spells and I got the same spells as last game. My priority was to dispel the summoning spells, so I was willing to let through miasma. As far as my magic was concerned, I was really looking forward to some miasma+pit of shades combinations.

High Elves turn one
Image

I started off by moving my cavalry and swordmasters quickly around the flanks, while the phoenix guards and sisters moved up slightly to get in range for magic and shooting.

Elo channelled twice, making it 7/6. I threw two dice at miasma on the doombull unit, but Elo dispelled it with all his. I then threw three dice at pit of shades. I was only just in range, so the template lay over just the closest doombull (the one with ASF) and to ungor. I rolled a hit and… he rolled a six for the doombull! Obviously, I was very pleased to get the one I was probably most scared of off the board on turn one. I also got pendulum, but it failed to reach anything.

In shooting I killed four raiders from one unit. I couldn’t manage much because of moving the sisters and skirmish.

Beastmen turn one
Image

The raiders on my left moved to complete the trap and the rest of the army rushed to block my advancing right flank and get the doombulls forward.

4/3. Elo threw all his dice at a boosted Ryze, getting irresistible force and raising a unit of crypt horrors. The miscast put one wound on Slugtongue and killed three gors.

The entire beastmen army’s shooting only managed to kill three of the reavers on my right; they passed their panic test.

High Elves turn two
Image

I began the turn with a few charges. The reavers on the left charged the leftmost unit of raiders, suffering no casualties from the stand and shoot. If I remember correctly, the reavers on the right charged the blocking unit of raiders, which fled, and then redirected into the second unit, which also fled. The reavers caught one of the units.

Elo channelled once, making it 7/5. I began with another two dice miasma on the doombull unit, which was dispelled with all his dispel dice. I got pit of shades off again. This time I believe it scattered off the unit on to the flying doombull and the harpies, but all initiative tests were passed. Pendulum failed to reach, again.

My shooting managed to remove the harpies in front of the flying doombull, the second unit of raiders which had fled from the reavers and the lone remaining raider from another unit. In combat the reavers on the left got rid of the raiders and reformed.

Beastmen turn two
Image

On my left, the ungors and raiders charged the reavers. I didn’t realise he was charging the raiders in, thinking he was referring to the other flank, so I chose to hold (the reavers on the right didn’t have bows). Instead, I chose to stand and shoot at the ungor unit. I definitely should have focussed on the raiders to try to destroy that unit (I focussed as many attacks as possible on them, given I would have no chance of destroying the other unit), but there was no point trying to explain my mistake and go back. In fact, I couldn’t have chosen stand and shoot anyway, because the unit was too close. Ignore everything I’ve just written. #-o Elsewhere the doombulls split up and the redirectors did their job.

This turn I channelled, making it 10/6. I let through a boosted miasma on the silver helms, since the characters have high enough weapon skill and initiative anyway. This left us on 6/6. He threw two dice at miasma on the sisters, but I dispelled this with two dice. Finally, I dispelled a four-dice Ryze.

Shooting reduced the reavers to only the champion and combat saw the reavers chased off the board, while both beastmen units took two wounds.

High Elves turn three
Image

Here’s where I made a big mistake. I charged the helms into the harpies and the swordmasters into the raiders, thinking I would be able to block the general and BSB with my reaver champion. However, Elo had measured it out perfectly and there was just too little room between the units (even after tightening ranks) for the reaver to fit through. Instead, hje had to skirt around the helms and watch what would happen. I had made the mistake too of leaving my eagle too far back to block, so all he could do was get closer to help out later. The phoenix guards lined up to counter charge if the swordmasters were charged, while the archers and sisters moved slightly to get in range to shoot.

3/2. I tried to cast my favourite spell again, but failed.

Shooting did relatively little and combat saw only one raider escape, fleeing towards the board edge.

Beastmen turn three
Image

The general and BSB went into the helms and the flying doombull went into the swordmasters. I held with both, perhaps wrongly. My plan was to challenge with the helms champion and make way with one of the characters, allowing me to focus both characters on one of the minotaurs and hopefully kill it before it was able to strike back. I held with the swordmasters in the hope that they would have enough attacks to eventually kill the doombull. Both units were a little too close for me to feel comfortable fleeing, too. Slugtongue joined the shamans in their unit and the phoenix guards were blocked.

7/6. He threw four dice at miasma. I was only just able to equal his casting score with three dice, requiring the re roll from the book. He tried to cast miasma with the other shaman, but failed.

Shooting removed the reaver champion. In combat, the BSB accepted the helms champion’s challenge. What I hadn’t considered was that my BSB was already in base contact and so couldn’t make way to get to the doombull. This left only my prince to face the general and he didn’t even have enough attacks to kill it, even if they had all wounded and he had failed all his saves. I did manage to wound the general twice, but he did so much damage to the unit that I broke. My BSB and standard bearer died due to the last stand rule, leaving only the prince, who escaped. The swordmasters, meanwhile, took only three wounds, putting two on the doombull and holding with steadfast.

High Elves turn four
Image

The prince rallied, while my archmage left his unit so that he could see to cast magic at the doombulls.

Elo channelled once. 9/6. I threw three dice at withering on the doombull in combat with the swordmasters. He scrolled this. He used all of his dice to dispel a three-dice miasma on the BSB and general. I got pit of shades, but it scattered off them.

Shooting put two wounds on the crypt horrors and finished off the unit of raiders in the centre. In combat, I managed to get enough wounds through to kill the doombull before he could strike back. I didn’t get ridiculously lucky, wounding the doombull three times. However, Elo failed all three ward saves.

Beastmen turn four
Image

The BSB charged past the eagle into the prince, while the raider fled off the board and the crypt horrors failed a charge on the sisters, taking a wound to stand and shoot, which finished off a horror.

6/3. He activated the chalice, which meant I would be -1 to shoot in my turn. Unfortunately I think we both forgot this by the time my turn arrived and it could have made a significant difference. I let through miasma on the prince, but then Elo didn’t bother trying to cast anything with his remaining two dice.

In combat I wounded the BSB once, before he got the prince down to one wound remaining. This was going to be close…

High Elves turn five
Image

My infantry units charged and destroyed their respective redirectors in combat. The archmage moved to get out of the doombull’s forward arc.

7/4. I only just managed to cast miasma on two dice, which he dispelled with his four. Pit scattered off the doombull but pendulum got him. Luckily for Elo, his ward save protected him.

I got two more wounds on the crypt horrors. The sisters managed to get through one wound on the doombull. The bolt thrower then shot a single bolt. It hit, wounded and he failed his ward save. I rolled two wounds, exactly enough to kill the doombull. Perfect. The chalice would have meant the sisters would have got only six hits, rather than eight and wound not have affected the bolt thrower. It might have been enough to stop the doombull dying, but I would have still had one turn and a fair amount of magic and shooting to remove the final wound.

Finally, in combat, the prince wounded the BSB again.

Beastmen turn five
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The crypt horrors charged the sisters, whose stand and shoot left only a single horror on two wounds. The rest of the army turned and retreated towards the northwest, not fancying their chances against the remainder of the High Elf army.

In combat, the sisters did one wound, but were run down. The prince did three wounds to the BSB, who only saved one, meaning he was dead.

High Elves turn six
Image

The eagle charged the gors, who fled, and failed to redirect.

11/6. I got miasma on three dice on the bunker and Elo used all of his dice to dispel. I threw four at pit, got irresistible and killed four gors. The miscast (I think it was the one which hits models in base contact, so that was lucky) left me with too few dice to get pendulum.

In combat, the archers managed to kill the crypt horror.

Beastmen turn six

The fleeing unit rallied, so no points from them.


When we counted up points, it turned out it was 2115-921 to me, or in other words a 17-3.

I had to deploy first in this game, so I had no idea what he would do. I wanted to keep my shooting troops as far back as possible to give me more time to shoot and I decided my right wing would be where I made my main attack. I planned to send my silver helms and swordmasters around the flank, keeping the phoenix guards in front of his army, to hopefully surround the doombull unit for a combined charge. As you know, it didn’t work out that way. ;)

I don’t think I could have prevented the death of the eagle claw to Slugtongue. I had no idea where he would go, so I just had to deploy everything as far back as possible and hope for the best. As it turned out, I didn’t really miss it.

I did make a mistake with the reavers on my left. I could obviously see I was sending them into a trap and it was unnecessary. I could have saved them. I did hold up his right wing slightly. Then again, they were so far away that they wouldn’t have done much anyway. Instead I should have retreated the reavers back towards my lines. Another mistake with them was that I deployed them on the board edge, meaning them couldn’t see any of his units and I had to vanguard to see them. If I’d deployed them further forward, I could have charged on turn one. A fairly minor mistake, though.

It was without a doubt brilliant to get rid of a doombull on turn one. Elo bemoaned his back luck and my good luck all game and I agreed with him. Looking back, though, I wasn’t massively lucky. I cast pit of shades three times on the doombulls and hit his general once with pendulum and this was the only time it managed anything. Of course, it seems a lot worse when you get it on turn one, but it wasn’t all that lucky.

A big mistake was on turn three. I was counting on getting the reaver through the gap and so should have really measured this first. I suppose I could have still got rid of the redirectors but fled the charges. The problem with this is that the doombulls were fairly close. Holding with the swordmasters was perhaps the right thing to do. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. They were going to be steadfast for one or two turns and I had lots of attacks, so I had a chance to kill the doombull. With the helms, I should probably have just fled. I’ve already explained that I mistakenly thought the BSB would be able to make way. Then again, the doombulls could have redirected into the swordmasters… There was no easy solution here and full credit should go to Elo for setting up such a trap.

I can’t see any other major errors. Again, I don’t really think I was overly lucky. I was likely to kill the BSB eventually with my prince, given that he only got a 4+ ward save and I was striking first. It also wasn’t so lucky to kill the general with my shooting, given that my eagle claw had short range and was wounding on a three. On the other hand, I do feel sorry for Elo, since it can feel like the dice are conspiring against you massively when you lose such an important model on the first turn and he didn’t complain too much. I want to thank him for a challenging game and not giving up, even when it seemed like I’d sold my soul to Tzeentch to get better dice rolls!

Thanks for reading and please comment on how you think we both played. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
Iluvatar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#102 Post by Iluvatar »

Those are nice reports, thanks a lot for taking the time to post them! It's also nice to see you back on the site, since I remember you as one of the most active on Ulthuan back when I signed up... :wink:

As for the game, I believe part of your opponent's loss is due to his deployment. Well, his army is certainly not easy to play, though it must be fun to have so many units; but just like in his game against Swordmaster, he failed to put his bulls in enough combats to win.
You had indeed a strong right flank, but I believe he should have reacted by opposing it even harder. With his four bulls on this side, the swordmasters and helms would have been really challenged to get through, and his flying doombull would probably need a single turn of movement before charging your back line units (EC1, sisters...). Of course, the minotaurs' overrun is a challenge too as he doesn't want to be caught sideways by a ranked unit such as the PG...

Anyway, luck probably has a part in your victory, but the main thing boils down to this: you managed to prevent the minos from getting into good combats - so you win. :)

Thanks again!
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#103 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks Iluvatar. I think writing reports really helps to look back over the game and think what lessons could be taken from it. And of course it's great to get advice from others. :)

I think luck really must take a large part of the credit then, because I certainly didn't do very well to prevent the minotaurs getting into combat! One of my main faults in this game was not using my redirectors better. The eagle was too far away when I needed it and I threw away the reavers pretty quickly for little gain. My opponent was able to control when and against whom my units fought, using his far more numerous redirectors. Perhaps I could have focussed my shooting more to get rid of a unit or two a turn. I did clear them fairly quickly, but there were a few turns when I split my shooting between a few units either because I hadn't positioned my shooters correctly or because I decided I'd have better odds shooting at a different unit. I probably got into combat far too soon with my main combat troops too. I could have retreated them to better positions in turn three and wait until I had more control over the movement phase to chose my combats myself.

Anyway, it seemed to work. I just need to remember all these lessons for the final game, which should be next week. Some results still need to come in for this round but with this solid win I should be around middle of the pack, so a good win in game three should at least secure me a place in the top half.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#104 Post by Elithmar »

This was the third and final game of the tournament, played against PrinzKaos and his Orcs and Goblins. Enjoy. :)

2400pts vs Orcs and Goblins
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
Level 4 Shadow Archmage, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Harbinger
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Harbinger
25 Phoenix Guards, Standard Bearer, Musician
17 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Standard Bearer, Musician
9 Sisters of Avelorn
9 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle

Orcs and Goblins
Savage Orc Warboss, General, Shield, Ogre Blade, Potion of Speed, Obsidian Amulet, Glittering Scales
Level 4 Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head, Big Waaagh!
Black Orc Big Boss, Battle Standard Bearer, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield
Orc Shaman, Savage Orc, Scroll, Big Waaagh!
Goblin Bigboss, Spear, Light Armour, Shield, Giant Wolf, Dragonhelm
37 Savage Orc Big Uns, Full Command, Additional Hand Weapons
27 Night Goblins, Full Command, 3 Fanatics
8 Trolls
7 Trolls
Goblin Rock Lobber, Orc Bully
Goblin Rock Lobber, Orc Bully
Goblin Doom Diver Catapult
Goblin Doom Diver Catapult
Mangler Squig
Mangler Squig

I wrote some thoughts on his list before the game, but it’s quite lengthy so feel free to skip it:

I’m really excited to face this army because I think I’ve got a way to handle all of my opponent’s units. Of course, it’s not all rosy, with those doom divers in particular posing a huge threat to my helm bus. However, the artillery is the only thing of which I’m scared. I plan to place my reavers last so I can get them in a good position to get behind his lines and take out the artillery. It won’t be easy, as he has some big units to block me and he’s likely to spread out his artillery on his base line, but I have to neutralise them quickly and reavers are my best bet. I think I’ll deploy my helms in a conga line and behind a hill if possible to mitigate the risk posed by templates in turn one.

With my shooting, I want to get the manglers off the board turn one and perhaps the goblin on wolf if I have some shots left. After that, I’ll activate the fanatics with my eagle and either shoot them off the table or leave them to hopefully hold up his advance. My secondary shooting targets are the trolls. I’ve been doing some mental maths and I think I can kill about three a turn, even more with withering up; I’m so glad I took sisters, as regen could have been a huge issue! If I can get a unit to about half strength, I should be able to send in the infantry or helms (although I don’t expect to have many left!).

The savage orcs are obviously problematic. I don’t want to engage them until everything else is wrapped up, so sisters and archers will be useful to hold them up (reavers will be hunting war machines and the eagle will probably die to fanatics). If I even end up engaging this unit, it will be with one of my infantry units in the flank or rear, or helms if they’re still around. I really need another unit in the other flank to prevent them turning, but this will be hard to set up.

Pit of shades will be my favourite spell again, I expect. The war machines, trolls and savage orcs are all good targets. Hopefully I can threaten him with this early on to draw out the scroll.

Now comes the tricky part – putting it all into effect!


My opponent chose Battleline and to deploy in the south.

Deployment
Image

Spells
Shadow Archmage – Miasma, Steed, Withering, Pit of Shades

Great Shaman – Brain Bursta, Hand of Gork, ‘Eadbutt, Foot of Gork
Shaman – Fists of Gork

Orcs and Goblins turn one
Image

I channelled, making it 4/4. He threw all four dice at a boosted ‘Eadbutt on my archmage and I failed to dispel. Luckily it only did two wounds.

The artillery only managed to kill four sisters.

High Elves turn one
Image

The reavers with spears marched over the wall and one tripped up, while the silver helms advanced just enough to stay out of range of the doom divers.

7/4. I threw four dice at pit of shades, got 18 and he failed to dispel with all of his dice. The pit didn’t scatter, the great shaman failed his ‘look out, sir’ and he and six savage orcs fell into the pit! :D I used my remaining dice to cast withering on the trolls, miscast and my archmage blew up, doing the final wound to himself and killing six archers. It looks like Loec was playing tricks on both of us!

Shooting made full use of withering, killing two trolls and severely wounding another, while one mangler also fell to a hail of arrows and bolts.

Orcs and Goblins turn two
Image

With no meaningful spells to cast, we went straight to shooting and the goblin machines finished off the sisters, panicking the nearby eagle claw so that it couldn’t shoot next turn, as the crew hid behind the bolt thrower. Fools – a bolt thrower won’t protect you from flying goblins (unless you shoot at it, so why are you cowering anyway?).

High Elves turn two
Image

The reavers with spears reformed so the trolls couldn’t see them. Meanwhile, the eagle was blindfolded and thrown towards the night goblins, releasing the fanatics. One missed and it took both of the others to kill the eagle, although they subsequently collided and killed each other.

Shooting did another three wounds to the trolls.

Orcs and Goblins turn three
Image

I think the trolls on the left failed their stupidity, so they stumbled forward, drooling and picking their noses.

The doom diver on the left misfired, wounding the other doom diver. The rest of the artillery only managed to kill one reaver.

High Elves turn three
Image

Seeing the flank of the night goblins exposed, the reavers charged forward. The wind, however, messed up their hair and they had to halt to fix it. The other reavers galloped up to keep them company. The prince decided he had been hiding at the edge of the battle for long enough and ordered his bodyguard to begin the long march towards the enemy.

The shooters were desperate not to be charged by the trolls and left only one alive. A wound was also done to the other trolls.

Orcs and Goblins turn four
Image

The troll suddenly realised why he had no friends anymore and charged the eagle claw, intent on avenging his comrades. The mangler managed to negotiate the ruins without causing itself injury and the trolls and orcs advanced aggressively. The remaining fanatic decided to leave the battlefield.

The artillery continued their work, killing two silver helms and a reaver. One of the rock lobbers, however, collapsed.

High Elves turn four
Image

The reavers again tried to charge the night goblins’ flank, but again decided to do their hair instead. The prince ordered his knights to perform a strangle shuffling dance, while the swordmasters backed away from the angry orcs.

The sea guard crew on the hill saw the golbin hero riding towards them on his wolf. They loaded a single bolt, carefully aimed it at the space between his eyes, and pulled the lever on the eagle claw. The bolt sailed through the air, skewering the unfortunate goblin. The other high elves were less effective with their shooting and all the arrows aimed at the mangler seemed to hit the ruins instead.

Orcs and Goblins turn five
Image

The night goblins, tired of the Ellyrians pretending to charge them, attempted their own charge. My opponent scuppered their hopes, however, rolling an eight when a nine was required. The mangler ran through both the phoenix guards and the swordmasters, killing three of the swordmasters but only one of the phoenix guards. The troll returned from eating the eagle claw crew and three savage orcs tripped in the ruins.

Three more silver helms died to flying golbins.

High Elves turn five
Image

The reavers finally decided that their hair looked perfect, charging the night goblins. Now, however, they were in the front, whereas before they would have been in the flank. The phoenix guards also decided to charge, as they were tired of dancing with the trolls.

The archers only managed a single wound on the troll, but the other shooters did finally kill the mangler. The reavers with bows put a single wound on a doom diver, but one of the crew still remained.

In the bottom combat, two goblins and one reaver died, making the combat a draw, but the goblins had a musician and he played his instrument so terribly that the reavers fled the battlefield, desperately covering their ears. The goblins reformed to block the other reavers.

The phoenix guards did five wounds and the trolls did four. The phoenix guards had more ranks and this was sufficient to break the trolls (he need a three or less, with a reroll), who escaped.

Orcs and Goblins turn six
Image

The orcs finally decided the time was right to charge. The swordmasters disagreed and fled. He redirected into the helms, but I decided they were far enough away and so held. He duly failed the charge roll. Elsewhere, the troll at the top managed to pass his stupidity test and charged, while the goblins failed animosity and had to charge the reavers, who fled.

Another goblin war machine broke. Then it was combat and the archers were afraid of the troll. Their fears were vindicated when the troll killed two of their number. They passed their break test.

High Elves turn six
Image

The phoenix guards chased the trolls off the board. I considered charging just my prince into the savage orcs, to try to assassinate a character. I kept changing my mind, but finally decided not to charge. I think I was right, as this would have been a big risk with little chance of actually killing a character.

My fleeing units rallied and the high elves tried desperately to get some more points, shooting everything at the night goblins. I killed enough to force a panic test, but they passed and we went to combat. The troll killed enough archers to break them, running them down.


We added up points and I got 1058, while my opponent got 797, making it an 11-9 victory to me. Thank you to PrinzKaos for a fun and very close game.

I must say, I was really disappointed with myself in this game. I had the chance to get a big win and threw it away. I simply lacked any plan for my infantry. Look at my turns and I simply marched them up into the centre of the table and when my opponent advanced aggressively towards them, I simply froze like a rabbit in headlights. I didn’t know whether my phoenix guards could handle the trolls, but, as proved when I eventually charged, there was nothing to fear (because phoenix guards cause fear too! Okay, that was really bad). I think I had a slight advantage given that I had a higher WS and ASF and also far more ranks. If I’d charged earlier, there would have been the chance to break the trolls, reform and then charge the savage orcs in the flank. This would have been the best way to handle the savage orcs and receive a huge amount of points.

Unusually, I wasn’t that bothered about my archmage dying on turn one. Withering and pit would have been useful in later turns (I might have even finished off the trolls), but his magic was really scary and his great shaman actually cost more points than my archmage.

My opponent did far more to destroy his was machines than I did. He was quite unlucky with miscasts, but then it probably evens out when you consider I failed two charges with my reavers. I should have used my reavers better, possibly splitting them up to go either side of the night goblins. Still, if I had made either of the charges into the night goblins (I didn’t actually need to roll that high, especially with swiftstride), I had a good chance of breaking them as I would be in his flank. It was probably a mistake to charge in the front when this failed. Either way, my opponent kindly misfired multiple times, meaning I didn’t need my reavers to do anything. ;)

Finally, I want to hear what people think about my use (or misuse) of the helms. I was pleased when I saw that corner was out of range of his war machines, but perhaps it would have been better if it wasn’t, because this would have forced me to be more aggressive with my helms. As it was, I had the worst of both worlds, belatedly advancing them and risking losing them to doom divers. So, which should I have gone for? Should I have stayed out of range and not risked losing all those points, or should I have placed them more centrally and used them more aggressively. I’m leaning towards the former, as there weren’t really any brilliant targets for them.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to reading your thoughts. :) I’ll post my overall thoughts about the tournament and my list after all the results are in, so next week.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#105 Post by SpellArcher »

This is good stuff Eli, more than holding your own.

As far as your list goes, I feel a scroll is more important than the Book, especially facing a spell like Foot of Gork. I'm a bit suspicious of the Swordmasters, too big to be disposable but not big enough or World Dragony enough to kick ass. If you dropped Book for Scroll that would give you the comp point to trade them for a Frost Phoenix I believe? A few more Helms might not go amiss. Shadow is good here but there are gaps like against stuff that is hard to hit, where you miss the Magic Missiles.

That's a pretty good O&G list IMHO. He has the standard (and strong) Rares, the Deathstar, the Trolls. A couple more redirectors might help him and the General looks a little vulnerable. Agree about Pit, good here. Foot of Gork is extremely dangerous, especially to your knights. PG are pretty good here but obviously can't hold the Star for long unsupported.

Surprised to see him corner but I then wondered if he'd sit and trade shots. I feel you were a bit unlucky not to wipe both units of Trolls out. Maybe the eagle could have bought you an extra turn's shooting? As it went I don't feel drawing the Fanatics was essential. I think you were quite right to sit the Helms out of range early and I can see the temptation to bring them in mid-game, tricky call. The Swordmasters at least distracted the Savages, he couldn't afford to expose his flank, after all.

The magic was crazy. It sounds drastic but scrolling his first spell would have saved your Archmage and let him cause havoc from then on. His guy going down was huge because Foot of Gork is that good. I believe Withering should have ended immediately it's caster died as it is Remains in Play.

A bit hard on yourself I feel. Yes, more aggression with the PG might have brought a bigger win but O&G are a swingy match-up.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#106 Post by Elithmar »

The results are in now and it turns out I came 7th out of 20, with 37/60 points. Galharen came 3rd and Swordmaster came 10th, as he wasn't able to play his last game and had to concede it. Of course this is a very good result for me, especially since I went 2-1. Unfortunately a lot of people couldn't organise their games, particularly in the third round, so I was lucky to get three good games against great opponents.

Despite this result, I feel I could have played a whole lot better. As I pointed out, I was annoyed with how I simply had no plan for my infantry in the third game and with my indecisiveness with my cavalry. This was a problem in my second game too so I really need to plan ahead more so that my opponents can't disrupt my plans so much with aggressive moves. The movement phase is the most important and something on which I really need to work.

I want to discuss the list a bit and SpellArcher's comment leads into this well, so I'll address his comments first.

Magic

I can see that a Dispel Scroll is in theory very useful, but that has not been my experience. If someone is determined enough to cast a spell, they are often willing to try to get IF. On the other hand, you might hold back your scroll for the whole game to then find that your opponent fails to cast or your wizard gets killed before he can use it. The Book, on the other hand, can be used in a potential 12 phases, means you have to use less dice for each spell and could save a whole magic phase if you initially fail to cast your first spell. There are a few games where you might lose because of one spell, but I feel that overall the Book is more useful.

As to spell lore, my main concern actually is that Shadow feels like a crutch. Pit of Shades is just so good in so many situations and even if it's not necessarily got a huge chance of killing something, the risk is enough to force your opponent to use all of his dispel dice, allowing you to cast Withering or Miasma. It's not perfect and ideally I'd like a lore where I can make full use of the attribute; however, Pit and the synergy with shooting are enough to justify it.

The Swordmasters

I used to love them in the last book, now less so. I still prefer them to White Lions and think I need a third combat unit, but you're right that they seem a bit weak. I'm reluctant to make them much larger, though, since their effectiveness past the first rank is reduced. Two ranks are still quite formidable and I feel the silver helms might draw some fire away from them. I've never used a phoenix and don't really intend to (call me old fashioned if you like; there is also the risk of putting so many points in one model, though, without other monsters to split cannon fire), but I suppose another option would be to split them into two smaller units. More games are needed, I think, to see if they can be made effective.

Since I mentioned silver helms, do you think I need more? I would probably have to cut down on reaver gear or get rid of some archers, probably the former. However, this could be useful because my experience is that people often focus on the silver helms and I rarely have more than one or two left at the end of a game. Often I've been left with my two characters running around on their own, although it's questionable whether it's worth spending a lot more points on a unit, the purpose of which is to die anyway.


I'm reluctant to change the list too much. I think instead I ought to practise more with the same list to improve and so that I have more time to see whether it can be effective. In the past I've been guilty of switching between lists a lot and this is something I need to rectify, although I will make a few changes such as to character gear and other minor things and I'll post the updated list soon.

Finally, a few words on your comments on the game. It was indeed a waste of an eagle, although it probably saved the reavers who had a chance of destroying the night goblin unit if they'd made their charges earlier. I was hoping the fanatics might cause some damage to his own units after being released. I do think I need another eagle in this list, especially against this army. I assumed Withering lasted one turn, so thanks for that. :)

Anyway, thanks for the comments SpellArcher and thanks to everyone who took the time to read my reports. Hopefully I can start getting games in more frequently now, even if the future of the rules is a little uncertain at the moment. :?
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#107 Post by SpellArcher »

Well played!

For me, the biggest issue in defending the magic phase is that on a lot of Winds rolls, say 6v4, 5v3, 4v2 etc the caster can force the spell of his choice through. Some spells are just game-winning in the right situation and a Scroll stops that where the Book often doesn't. IF is a 26% chance if the guy has 6 dice, it is much less likely than having to dispel a big dice total. I know there are strong players, like Swordmaster and Wamphyri, who disagree. But my experience, playing both with and without is that the scroll is too good to leave out. Most strong HE players will take scroll first, then Book if they can fit it. As said, in this game a scroll would have saved your Archmage.

I used a Frostheart for the first time recently and it was amazing. Coming from a Treeman, I appreciate the one-shot issue but the Phoenix flies, has a better Ward and isn't Flammable. It's also very hard to hurt in combat because of Blizzard Aura. Occasionally it just dies but more often it grinds vital stuff into the dirt.

I can see the advantages of running small Swordmaster units in an MSU list but I'm not sure how well they would fit here. Seredain wrote a lot of good stuff about SM's and his points about the loss of Speed of Asuryan and the need to utilise Martial Prowess are telling IMHO. The old unit of 14 was fragile but it dished out 22 S5 attacks with re-rolls and went first, before I5 Chaos and the like. To match that killing power we need that third rank. Also, as casualties accrue, you lose less overall killing power.

The game is deadlier now than it was three years ago. A block like Witch Elves can get away with no protection because it is 10 points per model and Core. 13 point Special White Lions can't, so much. They rely heavily on their cloaks and these don't work against Magical shooting. Which is why outside of MSU, they almost always have World Dragon. This of course gives lots of other wonderful benefits, which apply equally to Swordmasters. Yes it's aesthetically dubious but it turns a unit from suspect to awesome, it's that simple. The further issue with Swordmasters is non-magical shooting which is why Shield of Saphery can make such a difference.

Yes I believe more Helms are necessary to protect the characters and a second eagle makes sense if you're dropping some Reavers. You don't need to change that much of the army IMHO, just a few tweaks. The main issue is the Swordmaster block I feel. You would be amazed how good they can be with World Dragon Eli. Otherwise, not so much.

Re the eagle, I feel he might have saved you an RBT and the Archers whilst bagging all the points from the Trolls. But hindsight is a wonderful thing!

:)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#108 Post by Elithmar »

I’ve played three games in the past week, so I’ll just do a fairly quick summary of each rather than a detailed report. I was experimenting with some slightly different lists. Here’s the first, against Daemons.

2400pts vs Daemons of Chaos
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Level 4 Shadow Archmage, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown of Atrazar
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
21 Phoenix Guards, Standard Bearer, Musician
21 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
10 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Daemons of Chaos
Herald of Tzeentch, General
Herald of Nurgle, BSB
23 Plaguebearers, Full Command
10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors
5 Beasts of Nurgle
4 Beasts of Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
5 Furies
5 Furies
5 Furies
4 Plague Drones
4 Plague Drones

Deployment
Image

Spells
Shadow Archmage – Miasma, Withering, Pendulum, Pit of Shades

Herald – Treason, Bolt of Change
Left Horrors – Glean Magic
Right Horrors – Firestorm

I got first turn. My reavers moved up slightly, shot the screamers and then charged them in my turn 2. In his turn 2, my reavers on the left died and the ones on the right killed all the screamers, for no casualties. Meanwhile, my helms moved up just too far, so the plague drones saw them and charged. In my turn 2, however, I finished them off, for the loss of only three helms. My infantry was marching up as fast as possible, but the swordmasters kept having to eat furies. Pit of Shades and Withering+shooting did a good job on the unit of five beasts, but one got into my archer bunker, eventually killing my archmage and archers (archmage on my turn 4, archers on my turn 5). The other beasts charged my phoenix guards, who weren’t going anywhere. His plague drones charged and broke my sisters on his turn 2 and these eventually fled off the board. My helms (what was left of them – most of the unit fell to a Reign of Chaos effect I think and the standard bearer tripped on the ruins) charged the flank of the beasts and the eagle moved to block the plaguebearers. My reavers and eagle charged the horrors, hoping at least to kill the herald, if not destroy the unit, but they bounced and both fled, running off the board. At the end of my turn 3, this was what the board looked like:

Image

This was the turning point. I was thinking I needed to block the herald from charging out by hiumself, but he was naked so of course there was no risk there. The way I positioned the eagle, however, meant that the plaguebearers could overrun into the flank of the helms, which they did, and the plague drones charged the phoenix guards. I held on for a turn, but then on my turn 4 everything fled and was run down. The swordmasters never got into a meaningful combat, simply eating the three units of furies and a unit of horrors. This is what it looked like at the end of the game:

Image

This was actually his turn 5, so I finished off the horrors in my turn. The herald and other horrors died to a Reign of Chaos result, I think, or maybe a miscast. So, it ended up a 15-5 to my opponent.


Overall, not terrible play on my part (or perhaps you disagree? :P ). The turning point was turn 3 and the positioning of the eagle. If I'd stopped the plaguebearers getting involved for another turn and possibly got the swordmasters into something in turn 4 (although he still had furies, so probably not), I might have won. Another mistake I think was in the magic phase - I should have been focussing on getting Withering or Pit on the beast approaching my archers to make sure my archmage lasted, or I could have cast Withering on it in combat to try to kill it there. I don't think it was a mistake to charge the reavers and eagle into the horrors. I got unlucky and I lost relatively little for potentially a large gain.

As regards the list, I really need to remember to use the Potion of Foolhardiness and Sword of Anti Heroes (this would only have been useful in one or two turns, when he'd charged the plaguebearers into the helms, but it was still silly)! Also, I probably need to use my light troops to get rid of enemy redirectors so I can get the swordmasters into combat sooner.

Anyway, thanks for reading and please comment. :)
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#109 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks for this Eli.

I think your list is decent and an improvement. I feel High Magic goes better with this kind of roster than Shadow and it would also let you deploy with the Swordmasters to use Shield of Saphery. Even with Shadow he could have joined the SM's here in perfect safety because World Dragon gives him a 2++ vs everything.

Your opponent's list looks good to me, though I feel a second Tzeentch Herald is a good idea, to give access to a whole Lore. Going MSU minimises the impact of World Dragon because he doesn't have one or two super-hard units you can target. He has five units that are big combat threats some of which obviously caused trouble here.

I agree that it may have been a good idea to shoot at the Furies. As you discovered, the Helm Bus can quite happily take a charge from Drones. I too have bounced off Horrors surprisingly often, you are in the hands of the dice a bit here. If you get the chance, shooting takes them off quite nicely. The Overrun did indeed seem to be decisive, angling eagles is a tricky business!

I love fighting Daemons, win or lose, so much so that I've just ordered a unit of Plaguebearers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#110 Post by Elithmar »

I hadn't thought about putting the archmage into the swordmasters; I suppose it's easy to get into habits of putting a certain character in a certain unit without thinking. I'll talk about High Magic more when I've posted the next two reports.

Do you play Daemons, or are these plaguebearers just for target practice? :P

---

This was the second game, fought against Wood Elves. I implemented another of SA’s changes here, getting a Frostheart, although at the cost of losing much of my shooting. I also decided to try something a bit different with my Archmage…

2400pts vs Wood Elves
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Level 4 Beasts Archmage, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Endurance, Dispel Scroll
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
22 Phoenix Guards, Full Command
21 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Standard Bearer, Musician, Banner of the World Dragon
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Wood Elves
Treeman Ancient
Beasts Spellweaver, Dispel Scroll
10 Glade Guards, Musician, Trueflight
10 Glade Guards, Musician, Hagbane
15 Dryads, Champion
5 Glade Riders
17 Wildwood Rangers, Standard Bearer, Musician
17 Wildwood Rangers, Standard Bearer, Musician
5 Wild Riders
5 Wild Riders
7 Wardancers
7 Wardancers
5 Waywatchers
Treeman
Great Eagle

Spells
Beasts Archmage – Wildform, Impenetrable Pelt, Curse of Anrahier, Savage Beast

Beasts Spellweaver – Wildform, Flock of Doom, Amber Spear, Curse of Anrahier
Treeman Ancient – Throne of Vines, Regrowth

High Elves turn one
Image

This is really the only important diagram from the game and it’s my turn one. My opponent had already knocked one wound off the Frostheart in his turn, I think with Flock of Doom (I was far more concerned about Amber Spear and Curse, so I focused on dispelling them). Given this, I was anxious to get into combat and I thought the phoenix could handle a treeman ancient, so I placed it where you can see it, threatening his archers, waywatchers and wardancers if the treeman didn’t charge. I also used the two remaining reavers as a screen to grant hard cover, which seemed sensible at the time, but I now realise this was stupid, as the phoenix would be too large to claim hard cover anyway. Regardless, the treeman charged them first, they fled, then he redirected into the phoenix and broke it in combat (after I failed the initiative test for the Tree Whack attack).

Of course, that was only one of my mistakes. The other crucial mistake was that I marched the swordmasters up far too far. I should have measured and made sure the Wild Riders would have a long charge, because as it was they had a very easy charge and I had to flee with the swordmasters because those Wild Riders would really wreck the swords before they could fight back. Having wasted a turn rallying, they never got into a significant combat.

The silver helms never did anything meaningful either, as my opponent was able to hold them up with an eagle and obliterate most of the unit with Amber Spear and shooting. When they eventually got into combat, with the wardancers, the prince fell to a Killing Blow and the BSB died when some Wild Riders charged the rear in the next turn. The only small victory on that flank was when the eagle killed the ambushing glade riders.

Things went better on the other flank, although the wisdom of sending the phoenix guards to take care of that flank by themselves is certainly questionable. My opponent set up a trap with his treeman and Wildwood rangers, meaning whichever I charged, I would get flank or rear charged by the other. As it was, I charged the treeman, took one wound off with a S10 miscast and then finished it off in combat (the phoenix guards had Wildform on them, although the archmage himself did most of the work!). In the next turn, I got charged by rangers in the front and flank and wardancers in the front. I don’t know if I could have prevented this, looking at the screenshots, so charging the treeman was probably a mistake. Nevertheless, the phoenix guards proceeded to hang on until Wood Elves turn four, when they broke two of the units and then finished off the remaining rangers in my turn four (apart from my archers, these were the only High Elves left now, as even the archmage had been killed). They even charged the Dryads in my turn five and then weathered a huge combined charge, with two lasting until the end of the game. Definitely the elves of the match!

Clearly a huge loss and, in my opinion, all down to my turn one positioning mistakes. Thanks for reading and I look forward to any comments you have.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#111 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Elithmar,

I watched part of this game and I think it requires more attention and advertisement. I am glad you actually decided to write about it as I was not sure at the time that it was your intention. However, if you have the diagrams/notes/chat and enough time it would be good to show all turns too.

First of all you had a great opportunity to play against SmithF, living legend, fantastic player (not only on the skill level but also on the personal level) and the guy who resurrected MSU concept for 8th edition. The reason I would encourage you to show all turns is that you could learn a lot from the way he uses his movement phase. This army you faced looks much weaker than typical WE armies of the late 8th edition yet he has some significant successes with it against tough opponents too. Unfortunately, he stopped posting his reports on TWF but hopefully his interest in 9th edition would motivate him to get back to it.

As to your game I have the following observations.

1. Vanguard - I believe you vanguarded your left reavers towards the enemy. I wanted to ask what was the plan. I believe it was more beneficial to withdraw them and keep them in the second rank to avoid shooting and be ready to jump out and prevent these multiple charges you had problems with.

2. Dividing forces - while Phoenix Guard was absolutely amazing, held and even broke some of the enemy units you had a great opportunity to focus on the right flank and use building/hill in the middle as an anchor for all out advance. WE were not able to converge on your forces efficiently due to the fact that some of his units were on the left flank and as infantry it would take them longer to get there. In the meantime you would present unified battle line with better force concentration even to receive some charges. What is more I would consider positioning Archers in front of the building and jumping there as soon as possible, unless it was decided that the buildings is too small to allow shooting with 3 ranks.

3. Exposing Swordmasters and Phoenix - While I agree you moved Swordmasters too far I would not flee with them. You had 3 ranks of them, 7 wide. You would need to lose 16 of them to lose steadfast and a single casualty on the side of Wild Riders meant you are going to keep it. They hit very hard with 15A from the riders and 10 from the steeds but only riders get re-rolls, and Swordmasters would strike before the steeds too. I understand that the number of wounds would be horrendous. And it was risky to take that charge anyway. However, you gained nothing with flee and Swordmasters got stuck and were eventually killed anyway.If they held (and there was a chance they would keep their steadfast) you could eliminate WR. At high cost but with such maneuverability these guys are almost impossible to catch.

I know people consider Frostheart as the best unit in HE army but I think your previous list with more shooting gave you better balance and would serve you far better this game.

In any case, the better option would be to keep the battle line tight and not exposed to charges of WR that much or at least having an eagle as a bait (Smith does not have BSB so Frenzy checks can fail sometimes), PG as an anvil and Frostheart as a counter.

4. Characters - Big bus is easy to stop and shot at. I wonder if you considered charging them as individuals against some WE regiments to negate their advantage in numbers.

Cheers!
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#112 Post by SpellArcher »

I was reading down the WE roster and spotting the double Rangers thought "I've seen that list on Asrai!" and of course I had. Swordmaster is dead right about the Wild Riders. A unit of five should kill about ten on average and then you wipe him out and take the free reform. Six or seven would be more of an issue but if you can chip a model or two off before he charges it can make a big difference. This is of course something Shield of Saphery would help with. Your PG were awesome. They are so bad for Rangers it's not funny, even surviving a multiple charge.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I think your previous list with more shooting gave you better balance
This.

If you want the Frostheart I feel you drop Bus, PG or Swordmasters, not your shooting phase. You have some Archers and the MM's from Beasts but still. A solid shooting phase is fantastic because it can't be dispelled or fled from. Flamers are unfashionable but I'm going to take them because shooting just gives an army more options, full stop. So yeah, I am building a Daemon army.

:twisted:
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#113 Post by Elithmar »

Swordmaster, I might go back and make a full report of this game. I've played a lot of games recently, however, so I'm just trying to get through them as quickly as possible. Plus, I seem to have got back to my old habit of losing practically every game, so I don't feel hugely motivated to do detailed reports.

1. Indeed, I need to stop throwing away my reavers so quickly for no gain. My plan was to prevent the wild riders from vanguarding, so they wouldn't be able to get into my flank too quickly. As you say though, it would have been better to hold them back.

2. Again, absolutely right and I think I even mentioned in my summary about not sending the phoenix guards off by themselves.

3. Once again, I can't really say anything about this. I was just reluctant to lose so many swordmasters so early on, although this meant losing precious turns of movement and combat.

4. Now, here's something (just one thing :P ) I don't think was a mistake. The helms were blocked such that I wouldn't be able to get a character out, unless you are suggesting deploying them separately. In that case, I think that would be a very bad idea, given that only the BSB has a ward save (and only a 6+) and waywatchers can ignore armour saves.

SpellArcher, okay, so I should have listened to you and taken High Magic too. :P I'm just experimenting a bit and I liked the idea of beasts with three characters potentially benefiting. And yes, shooting would be better. Again, I was experimenting to see if I could manage with less shooting and believe me, it was a hard decision, given how much I love my shooting. I'll talk more about the list after the next game, because I changed it significantly after that, but hopefully I'll start to settle down with list changes.

Anyway, thanks both of you for reading and commenting. I really appreciate all the advice and knowing that it was worth spending time to make the reports. :)
Last edited by Elithmar on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#114 Post by Elithmar »

Another game, using the same list, this time against Dark Elves.

2400pts vs Dark Elves
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Level 4 Beasts Archmage, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Endurance, Dispel Scroll
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
22 Phoenix Guards, Full Command
21 Swordmasters of Hoeth, Standard Bearer, Musician, Banner of the World Dragon
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Dark Elves
Dreadlord on Dark Pegasus
Dreadlord on Dark Pegasus
Level 4 Dark Supreme Sorceress
BSB on Dark Pegasus
18 Corsairs, Full Command
10 Dark Riders, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician
9 Dark Riders, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
9 Shades
4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
5 Warlocks

Deployment
Image

Spells
Archmage – Wildform, Amber Spear, Curse of Anrahier, Savage Beast

Supreme Sorceress – Doombolt? (or possibly Power of Darkness), Word of Pain, Shroud of Despair, Black Horror

I got first turn. Not really much to say about this game. I eventually got the points for the dark riders on the right with my archers, after they’d killed my reavers there. I marched the reavers on the left up on turn 1 to try to shoot the bolt thrower down, but of course that was highly unlikely and I lost them to a dark rider charge. I really need to stop sending my reavers off on their own and actually use them for a useful purpose, taking down redirectors to allow my other units to operate.

He obviously had much better movement than me and he was able to run circles around my infantry. The harpies held up the helms, but then I managed to overrun into a bolt thrower. However, this put me in a terrible position as he was able to get the corsairs and a dreadlord into them. They died.

My swordmasters failed a panic test on dark elf turn 1 when he shot down the eagle. They were out of BSB range, so I can’t complain about bad luck. They took heavy casualties from shooting, eventually got into combat with the warlocks and bounced, leaving only two to flee and be shot down.

The phoenix managed to hold up some characters for a while, but it died too. The phoenix guards broke a dreadlord who charged them on turn 1, but then they eventually got ground down by a combined charge. At the end of the game, all he had lost were his harpies and a unit of dark riders, while my army was utterly annihilated. Oops.

Image
By Dark Elf turn 1, the High Elf army was already in disarray.
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#115 Post by Elithmar »

So, time for a new list.

Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Loremaster, Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
24 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
12 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
____
2399


The loremaster returns! As both Swordmaster and SpellArcher suggested, it was a huge mistake removing my shooting phase (essentially). Given how much I love (and rely on, often) High Elf shooting, I wasn't going to argue. The previous list was simply a test to see if I could make a list without so much shooting, but this is probably only viable with a flying circus and even then people seem to usually take 3-4 RBTs.

The question then was, what's going to go? I decided on the swordmasters. I've been finding the swordmasters a bit fragile (High Magic would help, but it just takes one poor magic phase and they'll die like... pensioners on a rollercoaster? Okay, maybe I could have thought of a better analogy. Anyway, I wanted to try out the phoenix a little longer and the bus has to stay for S7 and the flexibility of being able to charge the characters out. I've always loved my phoenix guards and they fit a loose Eataine theme well, so they're definitely staying.

High Magic would have been essential if the swordmasters were staying, not so much now. I might take it if I was going to play 9th Age and mount my archmage (it seems like we get the WE lore attribute under those rules), but otherwise I think a loremaster is the best bet. He's so flexible, with far more magic missiles than High (even if he does have to cast two to get the same effect as Soul Quench), Wildform is perfect for the phoenix guards, Spirit Leech is very welcome and Earthblood gives me the ability to heal the phoenix or a character, which is huge given that they don't have a great deal of protection.

Unfortunately there are a few less sisters (did I mention I love shooting?), but Razor Standard is nice.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any comments. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#116 Post by SpellArcher »

Unfortunately Eli, you seem to have immediately run into an enemy where you miss that shooting big time. It's a strong list with as you say, speed and firepower advantages. The Corsairs are questionable plus the lack of a second unit of Warlocks but otherwise it's nails.

I'd been running 20 Core archers and 12 Waywatchers in my WE list and really, it's barely enough. Here you were even worse off. Sometimes it's a good idea to hide the Reavers early game because in elf v elf they go down so quickly. Especially where the other guy has so much more firepower. I really do think it's a challenge running three combat blocks (including the Helms) because they starve you of support elements.

So, dropping one unit makes sense. Shield of Saphery/Ironcurse Icon/Deflect Shots could make the Swordmasters work because they almost never have worse than a 5++ vs shooting. In this game they did little but that was partly because the support elements (eg shooting to take down enemy support) weren't strong enough. You could equally drop the PG or the bus. As it stands I feel the latter remains a bit small. The Book v Scroll argument we have had already.
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Elithmar
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#117 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks for continuing to read these and comment, SpellArcher, it means a lot.

It's probably a good job I had this game actually, to drive home the point that strong shooting is essential. As I've said, I love it anyway and was only experimenting with some different ideas. Don't worry, you won't have as much trouble convincing me to take more shooting as everyone did back in 2011 trying to convince me to take shooting, magic, non-infantry units... anything, really.

You keep saying the bus is too small, but I just can't agree. Could you elaborate on how large you think it should be and why? As far as I can see, the characters are the important element and the unit is just, well, a bus! I'm not bothered if it dies, as long as it transports the characters into combat unharmed. In my experience, I very rarely feel I need more helms. Although the unit's often melted away by the time I get into combat, that was its purpose. And regarding the scroll/book question, although I've changed my mind somewhat in regards to an archmage, I still think it's the superior option for a loremaster, who has a much larger repertoire of spells, many of which can be cast reliably with one or two dice with the Book. I may still go for the Scroll though, which would also allow me to make him more survivable.

---

Here’s a game I played on Monday against the Dark Elf player from the last game, except he was using Beastmen this time. The army looked very familiar. :P I apologise for the lack of detail in this report, but I forgot to save the chat so I’m just going by memory and screenshots.

2400pts vs Beastmen
Lists
High Elves
Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness
Loremaster, Sword of Might, Shield of the Merwyrm, Book of Hoeth
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard
15 Archers, Hawkeye, Musician
10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
24 Phoenix Guards, Full Command, Razor Standard
12 Sisters of Avelorn
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle

Beastmen
Doombull, 1+ Armour
Doombull, 3+ Ward, Other Trickster’s Shard
Flying Doombull
Great Shaman, Scroll
Shaman, Herdstone
BSB
38 Gor, Full Command
31 Ungor, Full Command
31 Ungor, Full Command
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Ungor Raiders
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
Razorgor
Razorgor

Deployment
Image

Three units of raiders were ambushing and the harpies were scouting. I’m not sure why my reavers are so close to his harpies on the left but it’s probably my fault, not realising that the harpies were deployed (the ambushing raiders were just next to them, so I might have been confused).

Spells
Great Shaman – Wildform, Amber Spear, Curse of Anrahier, Savage Beast
Shaman – Wildform

Beastmen turn one
Image

The ambushers arrived. I got to choose where one unit came from, so they came in from the top. Otherwise, he moved as you can see. The crucial phase was magic. I really did badly here, failing to dispel the first spell and then not being able to stop anything else either. I had a fair chance of dispelling the first spell, but should have used an extra die to be sure. Anyway, he got Curse on the helms, Wildform on both razorgor and I think I possibly used my scroll to stop Amber Spear.

High Elves turn one
Image

The reavers on the left moved to block the dommbulls’ unit while the other reavers turned in such a way that the raiders wouldn’t be able to escape. The phoenix guards turned to allow the loremaster to use his magic missiles to get rid of the light units on that flank and the phoenix moved up aggressively. In magic, I got Miasma on the left razorgor, reducing its movement, but I then also shot at it first, killing it and failing to do more than one wound to the other razorgor. Very bad shooting prioritisation there. The loremaster’s magic missiles were either dispelled or failed to do anything.

Beastmen turn two
Image

The razorgor charged the first bolt thrower, killed it easily and overran into the next, while the doombulls all charged into the reavers and killed them easily. You can see that the phoenix took four wounds, which can only have been due to a boosted Amber Spear. I think my dispelling priority was Curse on the helms, so they wouldn’t be stuck for another turn.

High Elves turn two
Image

The helms charged, harpies fled and the helms caught them. The reavers easily got rid of the raiders on the opposite flank, while the eagle took one for the team and the phoenix rapidly flew back into lifebloom range. The loremaster duly healed one of his wounds. In combat, the razorgor would have missed the corner of the archers by millimetres if it had overrun, so it reformed.

Beastmen turn three
Image

The razorgor charged the archers, who held. The ungor then also charged and the archers took off a whole rank with a stand and shoot. This clearly rattled the ungor, who failed the charge. I think the flying doombull charged the sisters first and I elected to flee, so instead he joined in the eagle combat. Again, my opponent got through Curse on the helms. In combat, the archers were steadfast, held, and reformed.

High Elves turn three
Image

I threw caution to the wind, charging with the phoenix guards and phoenix into the flying doombull. The helms charged the redirecting raiders, taking four casualties to dangerous terrain and they didn’t reform after combat, to prevent more deaths due to this. Elsewhere, the sisters fled the field and the archers finished off the razorgor.

It doesn’t look like I actually got off any augments (possibly some hexes though), but this didn’t matter as the phoenix guard champion stepped up to accept the challenge and I had enough static combat res (3 ranks, banner, charge, flank for 6) to break the dommbull and run him down. This did, however, leave the phoenix guards and phoenix in combat with the other doombulls…

Beastmen turn four
Image

The ungor actually made their charge this time, but only just. The archers fought ferociously though, routing the unit. Elsewhere, Beastmen shooting finally did something, killing a single reaver. Better than nothing, I suppose. The Great Shaman drew too strongly on the winds of magic when casting Savage Beast on the left doombull, exploding and being dragged into the Realm of Chaos. He’d already miscast once this game, being left with only this spell.

In combat, the loremaster met the unit champion’s challenge, easily killing him. Despite this, his unit were not able to do any wounds to the doombulls, who killed the phoenix and five phoenix guards. Fortunately, the phoenix gaurds held.

High Elves turn four
Image

The prince downed his potion. The doombulls, driven into a terrifying frenzy by previous victories, had to be slain, although his unit claimed they could not connect with the enemy* (really, they were just cowards) and so he charged by himself.

The right doombull challenged, doing only two wounds to the loremaster. I then rolled for the prince’s attacks… hitting with only one, because I got no rerolls due to the doombull having the ASF sword. Either him or the phoenix guards did a single wound to the doombull, but this was far too little and he made short work of my prince. The phoenix guards proceeded to flee. As you might expect, there was nothing much I could do in the next few turns, so I’ll end the report there.


*The ungor and the phoenix guards were not lined up exactly, as my opponent had apparently reformed in the previous turn. This meant that, although the helms could wheel past the raiders, they would not be able to close the door to the ungor.


As far as I can see, there are three main mistakes that I made in this game. There were some relatively minor mistakes in deciding with how many dice to dispel and which razorgor to shoot, but these would not have changed too much. My main mistakes though:

1. Deployment. Although I didn’t know where the doombulls would go when deploying my units, I shouldn’t have placed the helms so far out. Once again, they were easily redirected. My deployment should have been far tighter, allowing my combat units to protect my shooters and my shooters to clear redirectors for my combat units. This is a major mistake which I keep committing and until I get my shooting and combat units working closely together and not trying to take a whole wing of the enemy army each, I shall continue to suffer defeat after defeat.

2. Charging the flying doombull. The wisdom of this move is questionable, but I think it was probably a mistake. Yes, I had a chance to get rid of one doombull and, even if I didn’t kill him, at least remove his frenzy tokens and the other doombulls would only be able to charge one of my units in combat. However, it forced me to engage his other doombulls prematurely. I had Spirit Leech and Searing Doom, he had no scroll left. Besides, the only unit he would possibly be able to charge would be my archers, who could flee anyway (after they finished off the razorgor).

3. Positioning of the prince in combat. I don’t think it was a mistake to charge the prince into the ungor in turn four, but it was certainly a mistake to place him in base contact with the doombull. There was no chance I was going to kill him, as he had ASF and a ridiculous number of attacks. Far better would have been to get into base contact only with ungor, inflict a significant number of wounds on them with my five attacks and then add extra combat resolution with a charge and a flank. The phoenix guards would suffer minimal wounds, meaning I could potentially break him or make him lose his frenzy token or even just make breaking less likely for me.


Thanks for reading. I hope you found the report interesting and please keep the comments coming. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
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Location: Otherworld

Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#118 Post by SpellArcher »

My pleasure Eli.

I think it's good that you're facing some pretty tough armies. There's not much worse than running a list, finding it works great with certain tactics against certain enemies, only to come to a grinding halt against harder stuff. I agree that the Book works great on the Loremaster. But most strong players see the Scroll almost as a pre-requisite. A set-up with Book Loremaster and Scroll Mage is possible, for example.

Most strong bus lists (eg ETC, Curu's thread is demonstrative) for the last couple of years pack around 15-20 Helms. Partly this is points denial, especially with World Dragon present. Once again, Seredain's experience is illuminating here. He went from eight to ten. What he found, was that armies with heavy shooting and magic (he fought a lot of these) could quickly decimate his unit, leaving the characters without Look out Sir, ripe to be picked off with cannons etc.. He moved to twelve Helms which remained a little dicey. What did work well was putting a Lvl2 Mage with High Magic and Fury Ring in this unit, to buff it with Shield of Saphery (Ironcurse Icon on the Prince). Mainstream lists though, simply add more Helms. That said, I'd trust your own judgement on this. If your experience is strongly telling you something against received wisdom, back yourself.

This Beastmen list ticks a lot of boxes. Multiple Doombulls are strong, especially with Mark of Tzeentch available. He has a scroll, he has the Herdstone, so I can see why magic was an issue in this game. Sometimes it's possible to hang back and stay out range because the Shamen have to stick to the Stone. Difficult here I guess.

As far as the game goes, I feel targeting the wrong Razorgor was significant because you would otherwise have preserved your firebase and had it available to rip stuff up mid-late game. I would have let Curse go and stopped Amber Spear on the Phoenix. A side-point here is that more Helms in the unit would make Curse less dangerous.

It sounds like you were right about the Prince. This is the kind of situation where more Helms helps again because if you have two ranks in his flank you Disrupt his rank bonus. In general I've found the 'shooty wing' to work well, though it does need redirector and small combat unit assistance at times. You almost achieved the local combat superiority you're aiming for to break his main unit, just not quite.
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Elithmar
Young Eataini Prince
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Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#119 Post by Elithmar »

A scroll mage would of course be great, perhaps even that one on the steed with High and the ring. I don't really have the points though, although if I was playing at 2500 I could probably drop the Razor Standard and squeeze him in. Perhaps I'll test the Scroll-master for a few games and see how many spells I can get off. I'd guess I'd get one fewer spell a turn.

Yeah, I'll stick with a small bus for now. Removing steadfast would of course be perfect, but usually I'll probably not be able to keep enough helms to preserve that second rank. Even going up to 15 wouldn't do it, I feel, and a larger unit starts to get unwieldy and a huge points sink.

I seem to quite often do this. One game I reduced the movement of some plaguebearers with miasma, then blocked them with an eagle and gave them extra movement due to the charge. Maybe my loremaster needs to let the rest of the army know his plans beforehand. :P

Thanks again for the comment. :)
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor
SpellArcher
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Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: The Struggle For Glory - Army Lists and Battle Reports

#120 Post by SpellArcher »

The big issue here is the cost of the Loremaster. Swordmaster runs without a scroll, so he doesn't need to buy a Mage to carry it but MSU helps here because the loss of a single unit to a killer spell hurts less. Coven lists are spoiled for Arcane slots but save points by omitting the bus. Seredain's early lists with this book had Book Archmage/Scroll Mage, the Archmage being cheaper than the LM of course. He eventually moved to Loremaster/Archmage but only by stripping everything else down to the bone.

In this game it wasn't so much that the Helms in the flank would break Steadfast (they wouldn't) but that they would Disrupt rank bonus, thus potentially winning you the combat on CR. All this is a side-issue though TBH. The real reason for more Helms is survivability and so far you've not found this critical Eli. I applaud your adherance to MMU Combined Arms but the power lists have the bigger bus. As said, I feel the sweet spot may be 12+Mage but obviously this is something that gets fine-tuned from individual experience.
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