Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:47 pm 
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I have some doubts about elves nobility.

As I understand there are ten kingdoms. All the kingdoms follow the Phoenix King. Like a feudal system. ┬┐Is ok?

So in each kingdom, how the nobility works? are there some families or houses? how are their relationship? is possible for a noble/prince travel to another kingdom and fight or serve under the new flag?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Oh this one's a complicated one.

Firstly, no one is absolutely sure what constitutes a "Prince" in Ulthuan. Sure, it's the possession of an artifact from Aenarion's army, but Tyrion was also a prince before he got his hands on Sunfang. Special circumstances might apply to him though.

Further, each particular kingdom seems to have a different form of governance. Caledor is the most militant and has a defined Prince above others (Imrik), while Avelorn doesn't really seem to have a nobility as such beyond the Everqueen. Eataine on the other hand is generally run by powerful merchant families (most of whom have the double distinction of being Nobility also) and where the current Phoenix King comes from. Saphery is more concerned with Mages and the tower, but again, also has Princes.

As to what makes a noble, good luck on that too.

It's left pretty vague deliberately.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:18 am 
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I see.

I've checked the rpg books but there is nothing related with the High Elves. The good point is that this give me more freedom for the design of my army's fluff.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:26 pm 
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The only things I'm sure about it are it's complicated and it uses the wierd thinking about fighting prowess is related to how important you are which makes sense with say orcs because if any orc thinks he's stronger than his chief he'll either be in pieces or chief pretty soon and sort of in say space marines (yes I know wrong game but bear with me a moment) where if you assume all space marines gain tactical knowledge at the same rate the better fighters will stick around longer and so have better tactical knowledge than most and be promoted because of that but it isn't that simple but for high elves where rank is mostly hereditry it makes no sense what ever.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:32 pm 
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I see the system as largely close to that of Game of Thrones.

Wealth, Knowledge, Battle Prowess, Magical Talent, all equate to power. Power equals position, and in turn create noble families and houses.

I'd see most as being born into the position, in which most houses and families would have risen to nobility with hard work over the centuries, whether through trade (wealth), study (knowledge), war (fighting prowess), magic (magical talent), etc...
Then some would be the creators of their own noble houses themselves through the above.
Some would marry into the families.

And of course some (possibly many) would own a weapon from Aenarion's time.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:34 pm 
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As far as I remember you are a member of a high elf nobility if your family owns a weapon that can be traced back to the first army led by Aenarion.

Keep in mind it wasn't a small army. It's not "a weapon of a great leader in Aenarion's army" it's any weapon that was used to fight the demons back then.

So any sufficiently old sword/spear/dagger/bow can qualify you for being a High Elf Noble.

If it gives you any political power is a completely different matter. Political power would be gained through what Asurion wrote, but I don't think you'd be even considered into nobility without that ancient artifact (which I would say there are thousands of, and I'm sure a wealthy merchant would be able to buy one from a poorer noble)

Think of the weapons as transferrable noble titles.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:29 pm 
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From all the sources I've seen (the army books) to qualify as a Prince you need a magical weapon, forged on Vaul's Anvil, from Aenarion's time.

As for Nobles, I've always though of them as the second, third, etc. sons of a Great House (possessors of a Princely weapon), or the members of Lesser Houses (families brought up to nobility by the Phoenix kings), etc.

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Besides, the battle of Finuval Plain was more a minor skirmish anyway. A good enough summary would have been "Teclis and Malekith ran into each other. Teclis cast The Dwellers Below on Malekith with IF, and Malekith failed his Strength test." Not much more to it then that really.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:53 pm 
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But Tyrion and Teclis are princes or at least called that.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:19 pm 
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I know Tyrion is, due to Sunfang, I hadn't seen/heard of Teclis being called Prince. Would you be willing to tell me where you saw it? I think Teclis is awesome and would love to read more about him :)

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rdghuizing wrote:
Besides, the battle of Finuval Plain was more a minor skirmish anyway. A good enough summary would have been "Teclis and Malekith ran into each other. Teclis cast The Dwellers Below on Malekith with IF, and Malekith failed his Strength test." Not much more to it then that really.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:02 pm 
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They are both of the blood of Aenarion, so they are both princes. Teclis is High Loremaster of the White Tower - it is higher title and so takes precedence.
William King wrote a three part novel about the twins, first is Blood of Aenarion, second Sword of Caledor, third will come out next month. It is quite bad. It should be read as an example how NOT to write about elves. From that view it is quite educational. And it has a one or three passable chapters. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:59 am 
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Aicanor wrote:
. It is quite bad. It should be read as an example how NOT to write about elves. From that view it is quite educational. And it has a one or three passable chapters. :mrgreen:


You really think so? I actually liked them quite a lot, especially the way he did Malekith and Urian. Which helf books do you prefer then Aicanor? :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:07 am 
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The Silmarillion.

If you want kick-ass elves, that's the book to pick up.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:03 am 
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Yeah well, I've kinda read that one before... :P . I was wondering whether there were any warhammer books that Aicanor enjoyed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:46 am 
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Francis wrote:
Aicanor wrote:
. It is quite bad. It should be read as an example how NOT to write about elves. From that view it is quite educational. And it has a one or three passable chapters. :mrgreen:
You really think so? I actually liked them quite a lot, especially the way he did Malekith and Urian. Which helf books do you prefer then Aicanor? :)
That is honestly what I think, I read both, but for me it was close to torture at times. I found them very one-dimentional or cartoonish when it comes to characters and quite boring because there was little we do not already know. I agree Urian was an exeption, but Malekith portrayed as stupid bully didn't work for me (I know it was not King's intention, but "hey look, I have this big bad demon and I can tell it to kill anyone" just didn't do it for me).
But I am glad to see someone was able to enjoy them, perhaps they are just not for me. :mrgreen:
I read the "Defenders" books and it was good at times, but mostly you could guess where the story is going. But there were good parts.
The Sundering trilogy was OK in my eyes, I do not mind to return to it if I want some background. There are some I didn't read yet, but I will, good or bad, I like to see what was written about us.

Of course, the best elf books are not helf at all. Chronicles of Malus Darkblade are top of he pile.
Not counting Silmarillion, Rod... :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Can't comment on the darkblade series since I never read them :( , but I thought the defenders series were absolutely horrid :lol: . That said, I did like The Sundering books, all three of them.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Francis wrote:
... I thought the defenders series were absolutely horrid...
I remember thinking at the start of each book: I just hope it doesn't go the way ... it exactly did. Never said I enjoyed it much, hehe.

If you don't mind Druchii too much, I think Darkblade will not disappoint.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Seconded, the Darkblade novels are great. They're not High Elves, but they are fun and they act like they should. (Although I subscribe to the belief that Elves wouldn't act like humans, since they're essentially alien. Since Eldar are clearly Space High Elves, 40k's impressions of their thought patterns are usually (big usually here) pretty solid. Unfathomable to humans is a good way of saying it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:01 am 
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I wouldn't say the Eldar are quite Space High Elves. They're sort of... in-between the High and Dark Elves, holding themselves up as enemies of Chaos and bastions of civilisation like the High Elves, but the Eldar don't have the sense of noblisse oblige the High Elves sometimes display, and while the Asur regard Khainite worship and thought patters as something to be used when absolutely necessarily and distastefully put in a box otherwise, among the Eldar Khainite worship goes much deeper, almost to the level of the Druchii (although this is understandable when you recall that Khaine is one of the few gods the Eldar have left).

As with the overall darker nature of 40K, the Eldar fit somewhere between the Asur and Druchii in mindset, while the Dark Eldar sit somewhere on the darker side of the black-and-grey morality than even the Dark Elves (the Druchii at least still worship the Elven pantheon, although the darker side of it, while the Dark Eldar have even turned their back on Khaine).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:24 am 
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Sorry about bringing this back from the grave but I have some new information. In Shadow King around the revelation of the betrayal of Hotek. They speak on the issue of the weapons, and the first Princes. From the text it explains that those "warriors" gifted weapons forged on the hammer of Vaul by Caledor Dragontamer and his apprentices came the first prices.

After reading the rest of the novel you experience the two "Princely" families. That of the Anars and Bel Shanar's. All the descendants of these Princes are also named Prince. Leading me at least to believe that so long as an Elf can draw an unbroken line to one or more of the original Princes they themselves would have the title Prince. This would explain why Arathlion would pass the title on despite being a poor relation of Morelion/Aenarion, and why his mother's side despite being wealthy and powerful do not.

What I find more interesting is that the oldest most powerful families don't have a surname. Aenarion and Caledor Dragontamer, so when Tyrion takes over as lord of Emeraldsea, let's say he fathers a child what happens to the family?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:27 am 
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There was a White Dwarf that focused on High Elf culture when the current White Lions/Dragon Princes/Phoenix Guard came out. It says that yes Princes are those in possession of the magic weapons forged on Vaul's Anvil and that Nobles were those that fought in the army. So if you wee held in high enough regard you got a flaming/glowing lance/axe/spear and became a Prince but if you were just a foot trooper you ha mundane gear but still became a Noble.


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