Ulthuan

Has there been anything that has limited one Everqueen to having only one daughter and being married to only one Phoenix King?

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We know that Everqueens can have more than one kid; we know that the eldest daughter conceived with the Phoenix King is the designated successor; we do not know if that direct line was ever broken.

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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

It's stated that Alarielle is directly descended from Astarielle, so one would presume that it wasn't.

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[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.

In the sense that a second or third born daughter became the Everqueen.

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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

No such incident was ever recorded, and based on the Everqueen's importance, just apply Occam's Razor.

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"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.

Which is the point - we know a significant amount about the Phoenix Kings, but very little concerning Everqueens.

We know they are the High priestesses of Isha and are the spiritual heart of the High Elves; their power seems to be maximized within the borders of Avelorn.

Their succession is mother to daughter; a ritual marriage is performed with the Phoenix King; after one year and conception, they are free to return to their court and take consorts. They are (or should be) consulted on policy matters.

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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

They are, and like the Phoenix Kings, Everqueens have the power to create policies and the like. There are references made to Everqueens and Phoenix Kings having different policies at times - those of the Everqueen are often more peaceful and internally-focused, while those of the Phoenix Kings are quite the opposite.

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"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.

The Phoenix King holds the real power. The everqueen is only a figurehead. However she still holds alot of influence. If she decides to use it, is anouther question.

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Setting aside the issue of being a figurehead (a leader in name only with no power) and actually having "a lot of influence" at the same time, the Everqueen has a great deal of the aforementioned quality - if she had no real power, then there wouldn't ever be significant conflict between the Everqueens and the Phoenix Kings for the simple reason that she would have no ability to effect anything he chose to do beyond standing on a soapbox. And maybe being grumpy with him behind closed doors (presuming that the ritual marriage between the two wasn't yet over).

However, her policies are internally-focused, as noted in the post you responded to, while the Phoenix King controls foreign policy. This means that the effect of the Phoenix King's decisions (going to war, deployment of naval power, and interaction with the rest of the world through diplomatic and militaristic relations) will always be more widely felt and seen in a universe that has a large part of its premise concentrated on war, particularly in the army books (which are designed to allow people to field an army in a tabletop war game).

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"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.

Ok soo... I'm not sure if any one else has reaslised this, but:
Tyrion is the direct descendant from Morelion, Son of Aenarion,
Alarielle is the direct descendant from Yvraine, Daughter of Aenarion,
the're consorting,
and the're related,
somewhat distantly but still..........

By proper standards: they are at least 8th cousins and at least once removed, most likely more.

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I got a question related to this, I think. In the 7th ed. AB it says something along the lines of Tyrion and Teclis being able to trace their lineage back to Anaerion. Now what I don't remember reading is how they do that. But presumably since Malekith enuched himself in the fires of Asuryan, and the lines only other produced heirs came from the Everqueen, its through her line right? Either Tyrion is distant cousins with the Everqueen through Morelion's lineage, or he's the son of a previous queens many concubines? Because these are the only two ways to trace heritage back to Anaerion.

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Well our modern standards regarding relatives and romantic relationships between them, do not necessarily apply to the world of warhammer and even in the past of our world...

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Eighth cousins, once or more removed is fine - in fact, for most of history, before the invention of easy travel an awful lot of couples were more closely related than that.

However, there is worse in the history of the twin thrones.

Caledor II was Caledor I's son, and like all Phoenix Kings he would have had daughter by the Everqueen - who is always the previous Phoenix King's child - who was his father.

So Caledor II had a child by his half-sister.

You don't have to have read La Morte D'Arthur to know that's not going to turn out well...

It's best not to think about these things too hard.

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All of this assumes that elves have the same moral codes on the subject of incest as humans do (and not all humans at that, though most throughout history have not been keen on anything closer than cousins/uncles/aunts). I have not read anything saying that they do, but then I have not read all of the books relating to elves in wfb. Certainly the dark elves don't seem to have much of an issue with it (according to the darkblade books at least), on the other hand they also have no problem with slavery and torture for fun so we can hardly take it as read that the two cultures are all that similar. Does someone more learned than I in the ways of the Asur know if there is any mention of incest (being practiced, encouraged or damned) by high elves, or indeed the Asri?

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I think yes, he is her consort, in the book giantslayer you can read that.

Incest for the Elves is probably more loosely defined.

Given their supposed stable and near perfect genes, it probably has more to do with the psychological aspect of caregiver and recipient, and the bonds of family, and relative positions of power in the relationship. Casual or light hearted affairs by mature individuals are probably politely ignored, but the line may be drawn by attempting to conceive or marriage.

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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

In the Blood of Aenarion, Tyrion sleeps quite frequently with his first cousin.


I'm curious though if Tyrion and the Everqueen would keep up relations if he became the PHoenix King.

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Yes, but it's likely it's a job that Tyrion will do his utmost to delay taking on.

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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

I haven't taken the time to read through all the 109 posts, but there actually is a reference to Finubars daughter in the VC army book. Essentially she goes to deal with the dwarfs on her way back Kimmler and Mannfred von Carstein kills all the escort and captures her for some nefarious ritual to rezz Nagash. Anyway I was just wondering do we know who she really is? Is she the daughter of the ritual marriage between the Everqueen and Finubar or Finubars own consort? She isn't even mentioned in the current HE armybook isn't that kind of you know a big event.

With that said, I have another question if the Phoenix King is already married when elected, doesn't his wife sort of mind that he goes to have sex with like the hottest chick in the realm? Just seems to me that would be a hell of a conversation to have.

//ME

I highly doubt that the everqueens heir would leave Averlorn, let alone visit the old world.

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Caledor I was already married.

Which makes it all the more fun. Since he had a daughter with the Everqueen, while still married to his wife. I'm starting to suspect that bigamy might not be a crime in Ulthuan. Then Caledor II had a daughter with his half-sister.

Tyrion frequently has sex at 16 (for anyone interested in the other thread about when elves reach maturity) with his first cousin (he's counselled against it but from less of an 'ew gross' perspective and more a 'this may cause troubles down the line' sort of tone.) I suspect that this might involve some foreshadowing of bad things to come. But could just be an elven way of "teen pregnancy is bad" talk and think about consequences as well.

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Further proof that Helves are very greco-roman

And he also spent his days and nights getting drunk and beating up elves on the streets of Lothern with his entourage.
I read both Blood of Aenarion books available and while it was amusing at times, I gave up on it after reading about Malekith's subtle intrique and refined threat to his lords: I have this big bad daemon at my beck and call and it can tell it to kill WHOMEVER I choose. Now let that slowly sink in and you are good.
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I've never pictured Malekith as being overly subtle. The rest of his court perhaps, but Malekith was always about the massive hammer and being overwhelmingly powerful compared to the rest of his court. He was never particularly subtle, if he had been, they wouldn't have had any objections to putting him on the Phoenix Throne.

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Perhaps "impatient" and "arrogant" describe him better. He sure could act covertly and to get the cults under his sway with no one the wiser was bi small feat. It was not all Morathi.
But that part of Sword of Caledor felt as if they were all five years olds trying to impress one another. Or perhaps dwarves.
I do not think there was a discussion on King's narrative, but I must say I was not very impressed.
m

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Wow, started in 2008 and still going (although with some gaps) lots of names I don't even recognize here in this thread as well as some heavy warhammer meta talk.

At any rate with the new Warded helfbook it seems like the Daughter of Finubar and Allarielle were indeed living in Lothern and were kidnapped by Manfred von Carstein during her diplomatic mission to the dwarves... How GW intends to write themselves out of this mess I really don't know. If it were up to me I would just have Teclis and Belennaer blast the Undead to smithereens, teleport the whole army back to Ulthuan and call it a day, but I fear the writers have more ambitious plans, most likely involving the stunted ones.

I think the current book also specifies that she's in line to be the next Everqueen... which does make Manfred's gamble make more sense. Corrupting or killing the heir to the Everqueen would be a pretty serious blow.

The ritual marriage thing is, I think, an exception to the usual rules the elves have regarding marriage. It's a ritual marriage between institutions, not necessarily reflective in any way of the individuals holding those positions. Essentially, from the elven point of view, it could well have been that Prince Imrik was married to the wife he had before ascending the throne, and for questions of fidelity is an entirely separate entity to the Phoenix King that married the Everqueen.

I like to think that elves are exactly the same species as W40k eldars. If so, elven pregnancy could happen only between pair of elves who sleeps with each other regularly for a long time.

It fits quite well - Tyrion's aunt chided him just in time to prevent troubles

Much much more ambitious as it turns out.