Armour-Piercing Banner vs. Banner of Sorcery on PGuard

[Quannum]

So I'm at a crossroads. On one hand, my Archmage-led High Elves kinda need the Banner of Sorcery to be able to get those gorgeous Lore of Life spells off (see: Throne of Vines, Flesh to Stone, etc.)

On the other hand, I'm in LOVE with the idea of Armour-Piercing Phoenix Guard. As my BSB currently holds aloft the Banner of the World Dragon (IMO, a total must in this new age of MagicHammer), I've been underwhelmed at our army's killiness, even given all the re-rolls nonsense.

So to boost my 7-wide PGuard even that little bit would be just awesome.

What do you think? Could I try giving my 14-man White Lion squad the Banner of Sorcery?

Q

[Foxbat]

Personally, I would go with the Banner of Sorcery on the PG and the Banner of the World Dragon on the BSB.

To get that all important AP attack, take Metal spell #2 on your 2nd level Seerstaff mage.

For the WL unit, maybe that +1 Ld banner would make a good selection...

[Quannum]

Ahhh.....I had thought of that. World Dragon is indeed on my BSB who goes in the PG bunker with the Archmage.

However, the level 2 Mage, who will take the Seerstaff and Lore of Metal, is already buffin the Lions with GLimmering Robe and Enchanted Blades - 1+ save vs. shooting, anyone?

Q

[Pskyrunner]

when u take world dragon banner into PG, you cant buff them anymore tho

[Quannum]

I know that. But I can cast Throne of Vines on the Archmage, and then cast support buffs to other units...

[tierdar]

It would seem to me that having the archmage in a unit with the banner of the world dragon would prevent him from casting anything on himself; since he's receiving the benefit of the banner. A cheaper alternative would be to give them the banner of magical protection (2), which would take the PG ward save to 2+ vs spells. It's quite a bit cheaper, and would allow you to buff yourself as well.

[Jhaantikaal]

teirdar is spot on. Banner of Arcane Protection gives PGs a 2+ ward save vs damage spells. Any character joining the unit gets a +2 to their ward... and buffs still work. Banner of Arcane Protection FTW I feel.

The BSB is too valuable to have lightly protected.... investing in decent armour and wards is preferable in my opinion to having any magical banner.

[Eärendil]

it seems like with magic being some powerful and it not being that easy to get extra PD, the banner of sorcery is a great choice still.

Banner of Arcane protection makes the unit very resilient towards magic damage, but they are already tougher than your other units and it won't help them against hexes.

I am going to go for the BoS for now.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

I do not think that the role of magic will be overwhelming. On worst average, you have 4 dispel dices, against enemy's 7, but you have the same chances of 5 or 6 dispel dices against his 7. Using a Level 2 caster as your magic defence, and you get +2, while your enemy get +4 because of his level 4. Because we are HIGH ELVES!!!!! we get another +1 on our dispel rolls. +3 and +4, not that much of a difference, since the fact that if you beat your enemy's casting roll, the spell wont go through at all. Personally, I think that you can expect to receive a spell or two. I do not think that Banner of Arcane protection will be that good for PG.

I should go for combat heavy and let Armour Piercing banner do its work.

[Volkos Lark]

I do not think that the role of magic will be overwhelming.

The skaven 13th spell is way too easy to cast now. Be it the only spell he casts per turn with all dice. Skaven do not need to cast other spells per turn - all dice go towards the 13th and another unit goes away.
Having played 4 games against skaven with the new lores.... well lets put it this way we can barely shoot them. They have devastating magic and infantry that can hold forever.

But back on topic

Banner of the world dragon is a must to keep the fighting unit (one with no mages in it.) alive. Just remember to take the BSB away before combat so that you can buff them.
The AP Banner is an exellent option for PGs and so is the banner of Sorcery. Personally I am going to two units of PGs so that I have both

[Taliessin]

I do not think that the role of magic will be overwhelming. On worst average, you have 4 dispel dices, against enemy's 7, but you have the same chances of 5 or 6 dispel dices against his 7.

First off, Hi everyone (first post)

That said, I don't think I agree with this, that may be the average, but the best you can ever do against magic is have an Dispell-die < Power-die ratio, (assuming no items) and basically, if your opponent rolls two 6s you're looking at a 6 dispell-12 power ratio, that combined with the new lores is quite strong, I'd also note that there are many items/abilities that grant powerdice, and relatively few that grant dispell dice. In the games I've played so far of the new edition, most of my opponents can easily hit the 12PD cap after a very average roll. Also, there are far fewer scrolls to to take care of those big casts... Thus, I'd say magic will almost always be overwelming assuming the casters army is at all equipped for the magic phase.

Also, after having looked at and used a number of the spell schools, im noticing that the majority of them are almost completly unaffected by magic resistence. The only lore that truely relies on direct damage is pretty much fire, all the others have a way to deal with a MRed unit.

BoTWD, on the other hand is great in this edition!

(Hopefully this is a good first post, and again, hi all!)

[Eärendil]

welcome to the forum, thanks for a thoughtful first post

The thing that makes me hesitate about BotWD is that making one unit in your army immune to magic doesn't seem all that helpful to me. It just directs the spells to other units. If my PG block isn't taking the brunt of the magic it will be my white lions, etc. Obviously, if you have a "key unit" that you really want to protect, I guess it makes sense, but I don't know how to make an army that relies on one unit to win the game. Also, not being able to buff the unit is a bummer!

[Taliessin]

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, I have yet to actually make use of the banner because its hard to fit into a 1500pt list, but i think it would be very helpfull on any anvil unit, not only is that the unit that will usually be able to protect it, but that is the unit I would say you really don't want to get vaporized in a single turn by magic( or anything else really), as it is usually expensive, and difficult to take multiples of (I'm looking at you 500pt phoenix guard blocks!)

[Angel]

The biggest problem with taking BOTWD is the it must be on a BSB. And he won't be that well protected, unless you mount him in which case is will still be a bit vulnerable if he is in an infantry unit.

[Quannum]

I've had the same thoughts re: the Vulnerability of the BSB carrying the BOTWD.

To calibrate, I take a Noble with GW, AoCaledor, Guardian Phoenix to accept challenges, and provide some killability.

My anvil unit is Teclis, the BOTWD BSB Noble, the fighty Noble, and 18 Phoenix Guard with Full Command and Razor Standard deployed in 7x3 formation.

Maximises killing output for efficiency and provides the best shelter in the game for Teclis.

On another note, has anyone thought of casting that +3 Attacks Lore of Beasts spell on Teclis? Always wounding on 2's, no AS makes him lethal! But of course, you wouldn't be able to put him in with the BOTWD.

Q

[Pash]

Pretty sure that's only because of his sword and aren't you specifically not allowed to use magic spells with other weapons?..

[HERO]

Might throw in Korhil and Caradryan next to Teclis in my next game with more Phoenix Guard

[wamphyri101]

lol hero mate do you only use special characters?

Think I'm going to take AP banner as I think its far more useful. Magic I think is going to be very fickle in this edition so am just going for 2 level 2's for magic defense

[HERO]

lol hero mate do you only use special characters?

Think I'm going to take AP banner as I think its far more useful. Magic I think is going to be very fickle in this edition so am just going for 2 level 2's for magic defense

Haha, no.. but our SCs are among the best in the game.

To not take them would be going against my "RTS Religion".

[Pash]

Just as a tip; taking SCs is not usually considered to be a bold move and shows a lack of tactics and experience. Since SCs are usually undercosted/overpowered versions of what HE (and other armies) can make out of their army book, it can be considered a bit of a cop-out to use one and claim to face a great challenge.

That is not to say that SCs shouldn't be used or to have a rant at you, Hero, but you won't find many people who are impressed with wins using SC in their lists. Try running something similar but that can be done with our normal magic items, you'll find it presents a much greater tactical challenge and you may even learn a thing or two.

[Foxbat]

I really think that non-HE players need to realize that SCs are a necessity for HE lists in certain point ranges (e.g. below 2750 pts).

We just don’t have the same number of “special" units with crazy rule buffs or “special” war machine options that other army books have. Instead, we just get good "special" characters at lower point levels.

I will gladly agree to a ban on SCs if all the other armies are required to give up these “special” units too...fat chance of that though.

[Pash]

Perhaps you're right but then I feel that we have a decent selection of good troops followed by some very generous special rules that a lot of armies are very much jealous of. So, I think that HE truly can face up to any opponent but it will not always be easy. That's the fate of a mid-tier army; :/

[Minsc]

I really think that non-HE players need to realize that SCs are a necessity for HE lists in certain point ranges (e.g. below 2750 pts).

Excuse me, but as a HE player myself I find this statement to be total and utter B*llshit.

[Angel]

I really think that non-HE players need to realize that SCs are a necessity for HE lists in certain point ranges (e.g. below 2750 pts).

I don't agree with you. I play in a pretty competitive environment and I'm doing perfectly fine without any special characters at all. While I know that they are good, I don't like using them since they just feel so boring. Alith Anar is a possible exception as he is the most bad-ass elf ever and actually has some interesting rules.

[Foxbat]

I guess a completive environment is a relative thing. I come from an environment where players view an STank at 1500, dual Hydras with death star BG at 2000 pts, and tooled BT lists as being only somewhat mean.

In such an environment, SCs are a must if you don't want to field a Star Dragon...

[HERO]

I find not taking cost effective choices just absurd. That's because I always get the best bang for my buck.

Why would I take a normal Noble with a White Sword for example when I can take Korhil? Why would I even try to make a protective coverup like Caradryan when I can just take him? And why would I take a Lv.4 with Book of Hoeth with Teclis is right there?

I mean, I think it has to do with your play group really. If they really get upset at SCs then yeah, don't take them. Ask your group what they think and go with that In the end though, it's your hobby. You paid for these minis.. to not field them based on someone's opinion is the biggest bullcrap of all.

[HERO]

You guys inspired me so much, I think I'll blog about them
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/07/spec ... th-ed.html

Enjoy my fellow princes!

[Taliessin]

Just because I'm fond of my first thread and can't stray far from it, and because I'd hate to see Hero pounded into the ground by the mobs of SC haters...

First off, you're not the only one out there that likes SCs Hero, I like em to, and my LGS supports them to the fullest.

I don't understand what causes people to selectivly remove whole items from a codex, combinations maby, but units never! What I have an even harder time understanding is how they use blanket removals such as special characters (which will affect some codexes more than others) as a way of nerfing. The high elf SCs are, from what I've seen so far, a way to make them interesting and up their power a bit. Why remove a strength from one army, and leave the darkelf hydra in another?

At that rate, how about we go back to chess, but make sure the black player starts without a queen?

Just jumping in to let you know your not alone here Hero!

[Musashi]

Depends on context and opposition, but I suspect that Teclis in a restricted PD/DD environment tends to kick butt, probably all by himself; might be more interesting to reserve him for 3K+ games, or team ones of 4K+.

[Pash]

SC can be fun to use and I often use them in pre-arranged friendly games. Still, using certain SC like Teclis are so game-breaking that it can become less enjoyable. I mean, what's stopping an Empire player taking 2 Stanks in 2k (and with the new profile, i'm sure we will)? It's perfectly legal and they are not taking anything away from their army book but that person will eventually find less and less players will want to play him because it's not fun.

I also find that SC tend to crutch players and they rely on them for the mainstay of their tactic. I mean, what's more impressive, that you steamrolled an army of Dwarves with a standard L4 Archmage or with Teclis? I know which one I would find more memorable.