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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:18 pm 
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My White Lions died to an elf fighting Blood Knights and Manfred. all that was left standing was a wounded manfred, which would have left me feeling better had my subsequently charging lion chariot been able to finish him off like it absolutely should have been able to. Stupid Manfred. My friend was using a pretty mean list with manfred and Vlad running around and I was a pretty fledgling HE player at the time (still am but at least I've got some seriously enlightening knowledge from this forum since then).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:30 pm 
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That's a typical result for White Lions in my experience. Mine fought a unit of Leadbelchers and a Butcher. All that was left at the end was the Butcher on one wound who promptly got shot dead.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
will baiting it through terrain even hurt it? t6 4+ ward right or is it t5?


T6 and 4+ ward, yes. The idea is to make it take 2D6 lots of S6, perhaps even 3D6 if you can get it wholly within terrain (its base is at least 4" long, so if it is wholly within a forest, then it will take at least two turns to move it out- assuming it doesn't go ethereal by then!). While that won't kill necessarily kill it, and I'm usually happy to charge the Coach into a forest to get tempting targets, it will do a fair bit of damage and take it out the game for a while.

Note: chariots only take 1 lot of hits in difficult terrain per turn, so if he moves the Coach and takes hits in his movement phase, don't let him VHD it out of there, as it will mean he doesn't take the extra hits. Same with pursuit/ overrun.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:47 pm 
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However, if you are able to bait a coach into a forest, either you are fortunate in your opponent (he was dumb enough to charge in) or you are losing something worth more, in game terms if not in points, in order to pull the chariot into the wood. oh, and you might not even kill it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Baiting the Coach into a forest has not actually been suggested, it was more the idea of sending a small flanking unit into its side if it is passing the forest, in the knowledge that the unit will probably be autobroken and the Coach forced to pursue (Although this was referred to as baiting, it's actually a more involved tactic).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:40 am 
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With the T of the coach and its ward save I wouldnt trust trees to do this job just on paper. (loltreepun)

it has low I so maybe a pit of shades could drop it. The Star Lance and Loec altogether is probably the best option, just get one wound through and its gone forever. But if you dont run that then im guessing mass bolt shots into is the only real option, but it will be harder to take down than a bloodthirster in terms of saves, and it might be ethereal so you'll be shooting air.

You could just beast cowers it all game but you probably wont be able to consistantly get it off and tyhe coach is still stealing dice.

Another problem id like to bring up is when they combine the drealance and red fury, to create a powerful and fear causing charge. As well as when the helm of comandment is combined with the standard of barrows so that a unit of grave guard or black guard will hit on 2s. As a vampire player id probably take advantage of this as much as possible! Thinking about it a little i probably wouldnt want my main vampire on the front line trying to control troops so im thinking that perhaps a hero vamp with dread knight, helm + enchanted shield would work? Have him running around on his own or just marching way out into the middle after a unit if black guard to give them the helm, while they pummel anything with WS 5 or lower. I can imagine then rolling over the side of some chaos warriors. But i imagine the most common version of this is the grave guard bunker so anything that hits them will get hit on 2s cos your own vamp is clsoe by since its the front line.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:20 am 
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I've seen red fury, sword of might, nightshroud on a vampire lord. He kills quite a few of whatever unit attakcs him, and it is really hard to get rid of him, except with a character of your own.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Yeah and it's especially hard for a High Elf to take him down, even a character (Well, anything, but High Elves feel it hard because we lose the ASF) because of the S6 and extra attacks. I tend to find in this position that Shield of Saphery can be golden, as it will cut down his kill rate by more than a third (as every successful save also denies him the additional deadly attack), but you should probably just be trying to delay such a combat Lord rather than fight him directly.

That makes me think about one of the biggest strengths for fighting Vampire Counts: identify what type of Lord they have ASAP. If the Lord doesn't generate 5+ dice, then you can probably be assured that he has Red Fury and so will be deadly in combat. Also ask your opponents what armour their characters are wearing- if any has Light Armour, then it's definitely the Nightshroud, so he'll be removing ASF from anyone attacking him, as above. Heavy armour is a bit more varied, but commonly it'll be Cadaverous Cuirass which grants immunity to killing blow (and poison). If you see a Vampire on an unbarded horsey or flying mount and he has a lance, then that leaves two options: the Dreadlance or the Balefire Spike. The Spike grants flaming attacks, so be sure to take advantage of that with your Dragon Armour. The Dreadlance lets the bearer auto-hit with his attacks (even when charged), but is a massive 60 points, so it can't be on a hero, and will severely limit his magic item selection. Remember hatred is quite common on Vampires (especially on a Dragon), and sometimes Wight units, so if you can take advantage of that to pull a unit or character away from the fight, all the better.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:06 am 
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My expierence with VC, Battle banner, Battle Banner, Battle Banner! Adding D6 to your combat res almost guarentees that some of their models are dropping. really nasty agaisnt units like black knights or even blood knights. Place the BSB in a group of Phoneix guard to negate that whole auto break thing should you loose and they outnumber you. Our Supirior melee skills should work, though we need to watch out for tarpit units, which quite frankly most of their units can do. They simple fact they can come back means any of their core units can hold even swordmasters and Dragon princes at bay. That's another thing, units like heavy calvary are near useless against ItP armies. The whole purpose of knights is to smash the enemy and break them on the charge, Sure they would be great at flanking, but I can think of better suited units, for cheaper too.

Our ability to shut down a magic phase makes them cry as the necromancy used to bring back their army is compromised. We even have items like the annulian crystal that steals one of their power dice and gives us a dispel dice. Let's not forget Drain magic, perhaps the best spell to use on the undead.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:12 am 
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Our cavalry are useful against their cavalry. We're faster and can flee charges. If you can clear away the fast stuff you can run rings around his blocks.

With mounted troops it's usually better not to get stuck into protracted combats anyway.

Especially against Undead though I agree.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Hope I'm not resurrecting this topic unreasonably! I know it's no longer VC month. :P However, I feel I have some things to say or add being a VC player.

Against VC Swordmasters are INCREDIBLE. They lack the shooting to take them out and the shooting they do have ignores armour saves anyway. Sword Masters will obliterate a unit of Blood Knights if you can force them to charge you. Hitting and wounding on threes and before them means probably 2 will go down. When considering that a lot of VC players run only four or five of the things that is a huge blow to their effectiveness. Especially if you can kill a couple before they charge. I can only imagine how disheartened I would be charging my hatred and frenzy Blood Knights into a unit of Swormasters with the Standard of Balance. But that would be a very specifically anti-vc list I'd imagine.

White Lions are also great as has been said but can lack the sheer number of attacks to really cripple VC units or lower their numbers to a point where stubborn will matter.

Amulet of Light is obviously a great addition to an army when facing VC.

As has also been said there are a lot of bunkered lords or heroes behind big infantry blocks supplying their WS to them. If these units can be taken out it will make your life significantly easier. Eagles, RBT's and Dragons would be good at this as generally they are quite weak units but are behind the enemy's main battle line.

If I play the bunker setup on a lord I tend to have a very static deployment. With Grave Guard in the middle, at the front, flanked by a unit of zombies on either side to protect the flanks and behind them the bunkered lord two corpse carts protecting the lord's unit's flanks. Then a varghulf, blood knights and some fell bats to do their own thing. This is a hard army to beat as the points are all in one place and to approach this place is incredibly dangerous especially with Vanhels. It is never wise to under estimate the power of zmbies to bog down a unit the only way to reliably take them out is to cancel their ranks and do a lot of wounds. Other wise tere will be that one zombie left that will mean another 10/20 in the VC players next turn. To add the heroes I play are the caster lord behind the Grave Guard, a mounted vamp with the blood drinkier in the blood knights, a Drakenhof BSB in the Grave Guard as well as the wight standard which means they hit on two's, and finally another wight king in the Grave Guard who uses night shroud and sword of kings. (i.e. better than ASF, hitting on 2's and killing blow on a 5+)

The other army I play is a bit unconventional when compared to the other armies I've seen played but I'm sure you will come across armies with similar units.

It consists of a Level 3 Zombie Dragon Lord with Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Beguile (enemy makes ld -3 roll or vamp re-rolls to wound)/Walking Death (+1 CR), Nightshroud (any model attack bearer removes; ASF and all charging bonuses as well as dropping the enemy I to 1), Sword of Might, Book of Arkhan (Bound lvl 3 Van Hels), and Wristbands of Black Gold (3+ ward vs. any ranged attack). This guy will chew through infantry at a ridiculous pace and is surprisingly survivable given the ability to heal up the dragon's wounds, move behind terain and charge in the magic phase as opposed to leaving himself open to shooting. Any roll to hit him or the drago in CC is at -1 which means everything in the HE army is hitting him on 5+ in CC with base line stats. Your best answer to him is shooting but he is incredibly agile with the move again spell and incredibly good at killing almost anything. The breath weapon on the dragon is also a worry for elves as it's st 2 no armour saves so be wary your dragon princes and white lions are out of it's range. If you ever see a VC lord on a dragon don't expect much else in the army. My lord is the most expensive he can be at 730 points. Which means if he goes down that's literally a 3rd of the armies points gone. So if you ever get the opportunity shoot at the dragon he will suffer especially having only Toughness 5 and a 5+ scaly skin save.

A unit of 5 Blood Knights with no champion with the 4+ ward vs. ranged attacks banner and a musician, and BSB with Hatred Banner and is screened by 5 Fell Bats. Don't overestimate the downside of frenzy with these guys as there is a good chance they have that Van Hels in waiting. Never assume to charge your star dragon into these guys as any blood knight can accept a challenge. Meaning that your dragon will score 6 CR from kills most likely but be outnumbered, with a BSB and normal banner. Which does mean the unit loses by three but with the bsb it only takes two wounds which can be raised up in the next phase. This happened to me with a Chaos Lord on a manticore and the combat lasts three turns until, eventually, the lord broke after fluffing a round of combat.

Two units of 12 ghouls with champs and a unit of 14 with a champ and vamp with the helm of commandment, lvl 2 and summon ghouls (+1 to cast IoN on Ghouls and may raise them above starting level). These three units effectively act as one whole. And one should never underestimate the WS 6 on a unit of ghouls. It makes them that one little bit harder to kill and means they can stand fairly consistently against most elite infantry units. Also with ghoulkin they get to the other side quicker than you'd expect.

VC can struggle to deal with big monsters like Blood Thirsters and Star Dragons and so it is not uncommon for the Dire Wolf trap to be initiated. This trap consists of a seemingly random unit of 7 Dire Wolves with a Dire Wolf champ. However, this unit is an incredibly effective deterrent for big scary monster characters. If charged or if charging the unit champ will issue a challenge which the big beastie has to accept the mean thing will most likely get 6 for the wound and overkill but is out numbered meaning you will only be able to win by five leaving a single wolf there to hold you up in the next player's turn. This tactic is learned very quickly by enemies having faced it before because it's a 66 point unit taking their monster unit out of the game for a full turn but it does mean that in my army where I feature two of these units I can almost ensure that their big monster won't be rushing down either of my flanks. It's unlikely for this tactic to work if you are aware of it but DO NOT forget about it.

A varghulf also features. This guy is phenominal at hunting war machines and archers as well as letting the Dire Wolves near him march.

A savy VC player will use his ability to raise zombies to limit your running away by raising 5 zombies behind you and then charging using van hels with a more dangerous unit in front of the unit in question. This means if you break from fear you're dead, if you break from combat you're dead and if you hold you're probably almost dead. I've used this tactic a lot and if the initial tactic is a failure it still means that unit is march blocked by annoying zombies. This is how VC slow the game down. It's efective in both fast lists and slow ones because it either slows the enemy down to your pace or increases the effectiveness of your speed by severely limiting theirs.

Also be wary of what you let through of VC magic. Not every spell in the VC magic phase is imperitive for the Vampire to get off so you need to try and recognize what is important. It's not like most other magic phases where the current magic phase will only affect the next turn in the game it's that it can affect the current turn too. Things like move again, and raising units affect the game this turn and you need to identify how badly it will affect you. VC magic is also all about misdirection. A VC player with a unit of Blood Knights in front of your White Lions that is raising up Ghouls is trying to trick you into dispelling those raising spells so he can safely cast Van Hels. The best possible spells I feel I can get on a level 3 lord are IoN which is 0 level, Van Hels, Raise Dead, and Curse of Years. In order of importance. These spells all have reasonable casting values and are exceedingly effective. This is why I believe items like the Sigil of Asuryan are great against VC because you can steal away their 0 level spell (although this might have been FAQ'd) but you can also steal away Van Hels which will make the game a lot harder for the VC player. Drain Magic is also insane because it takes away the VC magic phase's reliability. I would not be happy casting IoN on a 7.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:37 pm 
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chris_havoc wrote:
Against VC Swordmasters are INCREDIBLE.
not really, when you get into combat, that block turns out to be WS6 somehow, then you only hit with 7 attacks, wounding on 3's, meaning you only just win, without considering the wounds done by mister vampire.
. I can only imagine how disheartened I would be charging my hatred and frenzy Blood Knights into a unit of Swormasters with the Standard of Balance. But that would be a very specifically anti-vc list I'd imagine.
i have this unit in every list i write :D

White Lions are also great as has been said but can lack the sheer number of attacks to really cripple VC units or lower their numbers to a point where stubborn will matter.

WL with lionstandard are nice, but they rarely do enough damage to a vc unit to actually get net damage after magic.

As has also been said there are a lot of bunkered lords or heroes behind big infantry blocks supplying their WS to them. If these units can be taken out it will make your life significantly easier. Eagles, RBT's and Dragons would be good at this as generally they are quite weak units but are behind the enemy's main battle line.

eagles and RBTs won't do it, a dragon might. if it is in the first few turns, but it is generally hard to hit this unit.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Yeah for sure I wouldn't face Swordmasters up against Grave Guard with a bunker but they will chew through the supporting infantry and knights at least do enough damage to limit their effectiveness by a huge amount. I'd be worried about Swordmasters if I were to face them with my army as I don't have the Grave Guard.

Yeah exactly what I mean. Against VC number of attacks is something not to be ignored. I think it's especially important to concentrate fire against VC and agree with previous posts that you should take out support units first.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Indeed if the VC player knows what he's doing the only thing Swordmasters should ever be fighting are a unit buffed either with the Helm of Command, or a Vampire with Nightshroud, to kill a couple a turn and eventually wipe them all out. Sadly I've had too many games with my own Swordmasters to ever expect them to make into combat with anything good, and just as many against them to know what to put into them. High Elves should be grateful to filthy Dark Elf rulesmeisters who argued for and won the case for S7 Rending Star Assassins that ensure that Black Coaches are now obselete (Great as they have impacts and suck up pool dice including Banner of Sorcery) in all-comers lists.

Don't worry about Blood Knights and the challenge thing mentioned by chris_havoc. Regular Blood Knights can only accept challenges, they cannot issue them themselves. With a Chaos Lord it's a nightmare as he has to challenge, but with a Prince on Star Dragon, there's no compulsion to challenge, and Blood Knights rarely have a champion, so as long as the HE player doesn't issue a challenge himself, the Dragon and Prince can happily smash the entire unit to smithereens :)

One the other Dragon side, the breath is very nasty and can smash infantry units, but of course being a breath weapon our Dragon Princes are immune to it. Which is nice.

Some very good advice from Chris though, fun to see another player giving the game away to the enemy :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Holy heck! I never realized the second part of the Dragon Armour rule! On army builder it just says Immune to Flaming attacks so I didn't bother to read it up in the book.

Good point about the challenge I speak from the point of view of my Blood Knights wherein the BSB sits. So sometimes a person's initial reaction is to issue a challenge to get rid of it though won't be forced to do so again and again like a Chaos Lord. And will be able to destroy the unit in the subsequent or the initial turn.

The Black Coach is my least favourite of all the VC rares. It's ridiculously expensive and unreliable. The best rare in my mind is by far the Varghulf while Blood Knights and Wraiths are in the middle ground and people tend to choose one or the other because they like the feel of them. I realized I didn't give any write up on the Varghulf. Um... he's scary. Never underestimate him. He's a great assassin if the need arises and will never go down reliably for you. He will annihilate the ranged section of a High Elf army and with some clever tandem charges with fell bats it's very likely that he will be able to take out two of the ranged units in one turn given the general pattern of setting up ranged fire. If possible try to avoid setting your ranged fire up in a static line because if he reaches it it's gone. Best counters against him are fire based spells obviously other than that don't expect him not to do his job. He won't win the game but he will definitely help. For instance, I charged him into the front of 20 marauders with a mage and managed to break them and chase them down on the second round of combat after having charged and it's not as lucky as it sounds. This will most likely not be the case with High Elves it just gives you an idea of his potential for hurt.

If it were me I would most likely avoid and breath/magic the Swordmasters. If I had to charge them though I would charge with the dragon it's just risky as they can always choose to hit the dragon and nullify the nightshroud. I guess swordmasters are what make the book of arkhan needed so that I can know with relative certainty that if the swordmasters do go for the dragon I will have had the opportunity to give the vamp ASF and a chance to clear away the danger. I'd probably just throw zombies in their way though.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Their dragon is only t5, so shoot and magic it and it goes down. (you have an ok chance at taking the lord off the top in a couple of turns). If you do this, you win, if you fail, you lose.

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Well not sure if this has been FaQed or not but can our HE Magic Bows hurt the ethereal units?

If you have a remains in play spell such as Flames of Phoenix in play and you successfully cast Drain Magic. Does the dispel roll by your opponent need to meet the original casting value of 11 or does it become 14? to get rid of FoP?

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:11 pm 
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Eltherion wrote:
Well not sure if this has been FaQed or not but can our HE Magic Bows hurt the ethereal units?

Tricky one. The WE FAQ states that their magic bows don't deal magical hits, as the arrows aren't magical. But none of the other books have been FAQed to say that so no one really knows. Decide with your opponent.

If you have a remains in play spell such as Flames of Phoenix in play and you successfully cast Drain Magic. Does the dispel roll by your opponent need to meet the original casting value of 11 or does it become 14? to get rid of FoP?


It raises to 14, but only when drain magic is still active. Once it wears of the required value becomes 11 again.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:48 am 
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what sturen said about the dispel is correct. it's in the FAQ

Our magical bows do magical damage. so yes it can kill etheral. if you entering a tournament ask the TO before hand.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:34 am 
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Okies the focus seems to have been on Magic up to now and which Lores are best.

With a Mage Lvl 2 and an Achmage Lvl 4 (9-11 pd + RoF) both with High Magic this allows 2x Drain Magic if the Vamp has heaps of power dice.

So RoF 1st then 3 dice Drain Magic, 4 dice FoP, 3 Dice Drain Magic

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