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 Post subject: 2500 pt Tournament List
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:44 pm 
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Hello again!

I'm looking to play in an upcoming 2500 pt tournament, and because it's a little ways out I have time to paint some new toys before it. So these lists here all contain some models I haven't painted yet, which is why they are a bit different from my standard. I'd appreciate any suggestions for list modifications and thoughts on which one would be the best fit. The tournament does use a comp system to adjust final scores, so I've added the comp next to each list's points.

List 1:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Ogre Blade
Mage Level 1 w/ Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC w/ Banner of Swiftness
21x Archers w/ Standard Bearer
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Standard of Discipline
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
2496
Comp: -4

This list is supposed to be fast and hard hitting. The two Dragon Princes blocks and Phoenixes work together, either one team on each flank or both on the same flank, and then the Star Dragon just tries to kill anything it fights, particularly nasty characters. I've got an alternate magic item loadout that gives him the OTS and Star Lance to make him even better at killing characters in challenges, but he loses some multiple-round fighting power. The mage is there solely to be a scroll-caddy and to give a slight buff to dispel attempts. His odds of casting a spell are extremely low. I'd love to swap the Spears for Silver Helms, but GW stopped making the models! And they are getting rather pricey on Ebay...

List 2:
Eltharion the Grim, Warden of Tor Yvresse
Archmage Level 4 Book of Hoeth, Khaine’s Ring of Fury, Golden Crown of Atrazar
Noble on Elven Steed w/ Ithilmar Barding, Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Star Lance
Noble BSB w/ Talisman of Endurance, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor, Shield
21x Archers w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
30x Spearman Full Command
5x Ellyrian Reavers Musician Bows
22x Phoenix Guard Full Command w/ Razor Banner
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor Full Command w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
Frostheart Phoenix
2496
Comp: 0

This list is based around the 3++ Phoenix Guard block. It's got some Dragon Princes with an embedded Noble to be a second main-combat block. Eltharion is there to fight enemy characters that the Pheonix Guard may encounter since he's pretty good at it, particularly with a wizard boosting his ward save. The Archmage will sit in the second rank of the Phoenix Guard which is why he doesn't have a ward save, but the Golden Crown should help a bit if he gets in trouble.

List 3:
Anointed of Asuryan w/ Giant Blade, Crown of Command, Enchanted Shield
Archmage Level 4 w/ Khaine’s Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB w/ Sword of Might, Talisman of Endurance, Heavy Armor, Shield
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC
21x Archers FC
27x Phoenix Guard FC w/ Razor Standard
Lothern Skycutter
Frostheart Phoenix
Flamespyre Phoenix
Great Eagle
2496
Comp: +3

This list again is based around the 3++ Phoenix Guard, this time in a bigger block. The Anointed fights characters, the Archmage does his thing, the BSB is just a bit of support. The Flamespyre and the Skycutter are odd choices, I know neither is extremely competitive. They were partly added for fluff reasons, the list is Eataine-themed. They can act as decent flankers, and the Flamespyre can always go warmachine hunting and do fly-bys, but I'm not sure how well they would hold up overall. Although, the list is a lite version of the Flying Circus with the Eagle, two Phoenixes, and Skycutter. The list also does have an advantage in that my final tournament score would go up! But not sure how good that is.

List 4:
Archmage Level 4 w/ Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation, Lore of High Magic
Loremaster of Hoeth w/ Armor of Caledor, Dispel Scroll
Noble BSB w/ Sword of Might, Talisman of Endurance, Heavy Armor, Shield
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC w/ Standard of Discipline
21x Archers FC
26x Swordmasters of Hoeth FC w/ Razor Standard
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
2499
Comp: -3

This is actually another themed list, this time Saphery-themed, but it seems decent. The Archmage and Loremaster bunker in the Swordmaster block and try to raise its ward save while spitting out a dominant magic phase. This list also has the most redirectors of my lists, with 3 pretty good ones, hopefully giving me some board control. The Dragon Princes and Frostheart do their normal thing.


So which list seems the be the most promising? Any suggestions for modifications to the above are also welcome! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Well met CR! A lot to ponder here...

List 1 is the strongest I think, the Comp doesn’t lie. Star Dragon plus double Frostheart is just brutal. I’d be tempted to get a mounted BSB in to support the Monsters. I feel OTS/Star Lance is definitely the way to go, the S7 Star Dragon does most of the fighting and he needs OTS to crack certain things. Prince attacks are a bonus, though Star Lance means you’ll kill some stuff in one round. This blog is extremely informative on Star Dragon play, even the first page is an education:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081

List 2 looks OK but I’m suspicious of the DP’s and RBT would really improve it, given it’s reliance on the M5 Deathstar. I’m also a bit nervous of the protection on the Archmage. I actually prefer list 3, the Flamespyre is OK as support and the Comp looks good value. I’d go Dawnstone over Crown of Command, the Anointed will take serious punishment.

I like list 4 because the magic is awesome. It’s much weaker than List 1 though, for similar Comp. I’d suggest swapping the Swordmasters for PG because without World Dragon SM’s badly need Shield of Saphery spam and the Loremaster inteferes with that. Doing that and swapping the DP’s for 4 RBT would give quite a sharp list.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:14 pm 
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My two cents

I would also go for list 1, but a few changes

1: Can you convert something into silverhelms? as yeah speamen are a bit meh. Even more archers would be better as they get 2-3 turns shooting before combat and all still S3. plus archers help vs warmachines

2: A bsb....I have seen star dragons run off the table from panic tests before due to a shitty roll. Bsb is Huge

the mage is a bit of a crutch, yeah. could add a ruby ring as the threat of 6 dicing searingdoom will usually allow you to get it off a few times and it can easily earn its points

3: I was never a fan of starlance. I found being stuck in combat with him alot make tal of pres far more important than 4xS7 charge. The guys job is to survive to keep the dragon effective

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:04 am 
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Okay, so how about this for a List 1 restructure?

Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard (625)
Mage Level 1 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Metal (110)
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed with Dragon Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade (162)
23x Archers w/ Standard, Musician (250)
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician (90)
12x Silver Helms FC (306)
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame (301)
5x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC (175)
Frostheart Phoenix (240)
Frostheart Phoenix (240)
2499
Comp: -4

The Prince has been adjusted to hit harder in challenges and take out characters better, but loses some staying power with the loss of the Ogre Blade. A BSB has been added to ride with the larger Dragon Prince block and keep units from failing inopportune leadership tests. The Spearmen in core have been replaced with 12 Silver Helms to speed the list up and keep all the combat power at the same place. The second Dragon Prince unit has been reduced in size to only 5, so it would now be purely a flanking/chaff clearing/warmachine hunting unit.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:36 pm 
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I'll add my humble opinion to the topic.

Some general tips, which you probably already know or others mentioned in this thread:

1. Always have a BSB. Reduces the risk of failing easy tests as well as makes hopeless situations salvageable.
2. Running a monster in your list in 8th edition is a risk on its own. From my personal experience, there are far too many thirsty cannons or 3d6 IF fireballs flying around to spoil your day.
3. Elves without a proper magic support are hard to keep alive. Even running just a 2nd lvl on 2.500 points is a risk.

On the lists:

I find the 2nd list to be the safest one. A reliable combat block of spears to slaughter all other core but Saurus and WoC and a tough anvil of a regiment of PG with a can opener banner on their own make that list a quite competetive one. While having some defensive options you also get strong hero/lord choices and pack a punch with that beefy DP unit.

I won't be talking about the 3rd list, as I'm unfamiliar with the flying chariot.

The 4th list has a very killy combat block, but you're letting those attacks waste because models don't get to support with more than just 1. I'd swap that for any other elite infantry. Also SM are far too fragileto put them in a combat block role, even with a decent magic support.

Got to say, a reworked 1st one also looks quite tempting. Solid armor saves with high T monsers can be a hard nut to crack. A rush down army with a heavy impact like that may break some less numerous armies but I'd be worried about getting tarpitted by those, which can counter your manouverability by simply littering the table with their numbers (Skaven, Gobbos, Undead).


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:44 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Okay, so how about this for a List 1 restructure?

I think it’s pretty competitive. Dropping the DP’s for more Heroes and Silver Helms (not to mention World Dragon) would make it really nasty but I get that there are model and comp issues. Dragonhelm for 1+ AS on BSB is a tweak I’d make.

Lynve wrote:
Running a monster in your list in 8th edition is a risk on its own. From my personal experience, there are far too many thirsty cannons or 3d6 IF fireballs flying around to spoil your day.

Interesting point of view Lynve. One of our best posters in former days never ran Monsters for this reason. On the other hand this list is a world of pain for most armies. Yes a properly maxed-out cannon list could take it down but even that depends on deployment and dice. Big fireball is not really a threat to these Monsters because of T6+ and saves.

Lynve wrote:
Also SM are far too fragileto put them in a combat block role, even with a decent magic support.

The trick to this is Shield of Saphery because you’re not dependent on getting a particular spell off, any spell will do. It’s easy to buy a 6+ Ward vs ranged attacks, one spell cast makes that 5+, two is 4+. I (and others) have run this with decent success in tournaments. Add World Dragon and the unit becomes very dangerous.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:14 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Interesting point of view Lynve

I mostly play/played against Empire, Skaven, Dwarfs, Dark Elves and Lizardmen with decent amounts of shooting so that's why my view might be somewhat flawed ;) But as I mentioned, it's a personal experience.

SpellArcher wrote:
The trick to this is Shield of Saphery because you’re not dependent on getting a particular spell off, any spell will do.

Again, I might be a bit biased against the idea of entrusting too much to magic in this game. You'll need to pull off at least 2 spells to make a decent ward save on a unit of SMs. Yes the lvl 4 and BoH helps a lot but I still would not make the main killing force to be dependant upon 2d6 power dice+channel. I actually tried to run them in a block 7 wide/4 deep and they never perfordmed as well as WLs or PGs with the same/similar amount of support.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:46 pm 
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I actually ran:

Archmage
LvL 4, Talisman of Preservation, Khaines Ring, Powerstone, Moondragon

I took High magic. He did pretty awesome and I won 2 events with the list (will post below)

My only note would be I had him on High magic, which I just found didnt have what I wanted. Heavens or beasts would be better and you can still get the 3++ from using Khaines ring. His job was magic smack down, with Khaines ring for cheeky damage to kill skirmishers (and add wards save) as well as the dragon smashing down small units or charing into a big fight it could thunderstomp on

I think Beasts or Heavens would have worked better.

The list was:

Archmage General - Lore of High Magic
LvL 4, Talisman of Preservation, Khaines Ring, Powerstone, Moondragon

Lords: 610

Noble,bsb, shield, Banner of the world dragon, barded elven steed, dragon armour, lance

Caradryan on Asthai: 420

Heroes: 598

14 Silverhelms, Full Command, shields

14 Archers, Banner/Musician

14 Archers, Banner/Musician

Core: 672

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower

Frostheart Phoenix

Frostheart Phoenix

Rare: 620


Yes....all the monsters.

With the shooting support and magic, I could take out any major firing threat. And with the 3 frosthearts flying forward it and a moon dragon, they just have too much to deal with in 1, maybe 2 turns.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:18 pm 
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Lynve wrote:
I mostly play/played against Empire, Skaven, Dwarfs, Dark Elves and Lizardmen with decent amounts of shooting so that's why my view might be somewhat flawed But as I mentioned, it's a personal experience.

Empire and Dwarfs could definitely be a challenge, though as said it’s not cut and dried. They also have to decide whether to go full-cannon or not. Comp is one issue at this tournament of course. Another is dealing with scary opponents like Dark Elves or Daemons where max cannons are not necessarily optimal. The other armies will struggle to take out the Star Dragon. They can do stuff but are still on the back foot a bit.

Lynve wrote:
Again, I might be a bit biased against the idea of entrusting too much to magic in this game. You'll need to pull off at least 2 spells to make a decent ward save on a unit of SMs. Yes the lvl 4 and BoH helps a lot but I still would not make the main killing force to be dependant upon 2d6 power dice+channel. I actually tried to run them in a block 7 wide/4 deep and they never perfordmed as well as WLs or PGs with the same/similar amount of support.

My tournament experience with them has been good. I’ve faced a lot of different enemies, including some of the usual horrific stuff at various times but in England at least I’ve always faced a fair bit of Infantry too. To rack up good wins you need to cut through these quickly and Swordmasters are better at that than Lions or PG, while remaining decent all-rounders. Yes they’re more risky. There’s some very interesting stuff half-way down the page in this link. Hotly debated but the bottom line is the unit works, Lions and PG also work of course in different lists.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584&start=1350

I ran 7 x 3 because the key IMHO is that they’re only one part of the army. I’d also bring a Silver Helm Bus with characters, multiple RBT and probably a Frostheart too. It’s like Witch Elves in a Dark Elf list. T3 and no save, they should be murdered at range. But there’s so much other, more immediate threat (Double Warlocks, multiple Pegasus characters, clouds of Fast Cav) that that rarely happens. And Swordmasters, with a 5+ AS and 5+ Ward (and absolutely World Dragon if you can) are not exactly naked.

wamphyri101 wrote:
The list

After a pleasing first day I ran into something very similar once on a Sunday morning. The game wasn’t pretty.

:(

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