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 Post subject: New player vs Tomb Kings
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Hi Guys,

I'm hoping you will be able to give me some advice. First of all you should know I've never played Warhammer before, but I do know the rules, mostly, having recently read them and from memories of White Dwarf battle reports some years ago!

I've recently made a new friend with an extensive collection (High and Wood Elves, Ogres and you guessed it, Tomb Kings) and we are planning on having a 2000 point learning/refreshing game (he hasn't played for a few years) a week on Friday.

I've been reading up, but haven't found and specific ideas on how to deal with TK, as unlike most other armies they don't run away!

This is the list I've come up with and I'll give you the "rules" afterwards

Archmage. (The General) lvl 4 with book of Hoeth and Talisman of Protection (High magic?) 320

Mage. lvl 2 with dispel scroll (Beast magic?) 145

Noble. Dragon armour, great weapon, barded steed, BSB with reaver bow 149

21 Archers with Musician 220

8 Silverhelms with shields, champion and musician 204

5 Reavers 80

26 spearmen with Full Command 264

14 Swordmasters with Full Command and BotWD 285

Skycutter with bolt thrower 120

3 RBT 210

Total 1997
I'm thinking Noble with silver helms and mage with Swordmasters. Don't really know what to do with the Archmage

"Rules"
No special characters

Other available models:
Lots of archers and spearmen
RBT (actually 5 total)
Lion chariot
2x Tiranoc Chariot
5x shadow warrior
8x Silverhelms (inc Full command)
6x Swordmaster (inc Full command)
Large unit of White Lions (30? 40?)
Character on Dragon
Character on Griffon
5x reaver

At a push:
Dragon princes, only basecoated, he doesn't want to use as look terrible apparently

Right out:
Eagles (all he can find is a set of wings!)
Phoenix
Phoenix Guard (only has 5)
Sisters

TK
Loads of stuff, you name it he probably has it! Of note are the altar thing (don't know the name), one or two Necrosphinx (one is unpainted, so I doubt he will use it), 3 war sphinx.

Please tell me if this list is any good, and what if any changes you would make.
Tips for fighting TK
What magic you would use and what units the characters should go with. This is what I am most clueless about imo.

I know it's only a learning game, but I'd like to give him a decent game!

Thanks in advance


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Welcome Bushidough!

:)

Bushidough wrote:
Please tell me if this list is any good, and what if any changes you would make.

Most of it looks solid to me.

Bushidough wrote:
Archmage. (The General) lvl 4 with book of Hoeth and Talisman of Protection (High magic?) 320

Mage. lvl 2 with dispel scroll (Beast magic?) 145

These are fine, maybe go Fire with the Mage because boosted Fireball is simple and effective from turn one.

Bushidough wrote:
Noble. Dragon armour, great weapon, barded steed, BSB with reaver bow 149

I'd be tempted by Star Lance instead of the Bow, he needs hitting power and can switch to Great Weapon round two. Add Dragonhelm (switch DA for Heavy), Golden Crown and Shield to help him survive.

Bushidough wrote:
21 Archers with Musician 220

8 Silverhelms with shields, champion and musician 204

5 Reavers 80

All good.

Bushidough wrote:
26 spearmen with Full Command 264

Normally I'd say swap out these Core troops for White Lions but the massed ASF spear attacks might come in handy here. Interested to hear other opinions on this.

Bushidough wrote:
14 Swordmasters with Full Command and BotWD 285

Skycutter with bolt thrower 120

I'd be tempted to swap the Skycutter out for more Swordmasters because I think it'll be easier to play.

Bushidough wrote:
3 RBT 210

Very solid.

Bushidough wrote:
I'm thinking Noble with silver helms

Yes.

Bushidough wrote:
mage with Swordmasters. Don't really know what to do with the Archmage

I'd keep the Mage in the Archers to avoid contact. Archmage in Swordmasters because the High Magic Attribute will often give them a useful Ward save (they get a 6+ head start vs arrows from Deflect Shots) and his goes to 3+ if he gets even one spell off.

Bushidough wrote:
Tips for fighting TK

Tomb Kings are regarded as one of the softer armies because they don't have the combat power of High Elves for example. They can be strong magically but this doesn't give them the mobility and resilience that Vampire Counts get from their spells.

Bushidough wrote:
one or two Necrosphinx (one is unpainted, so I doubt he will use it), 3 war sphinx.

My basic advice is get stuck in but Sphinxes can be an issue for your Infantry. Massed archery (Hand of Glory to boost your BS), RBT shots and Magic Missiles (4d6 hits from boosted Soul Quench could be awesome) are one answer because even S3/4 hits will wound Toughness 8 on a 6 and enough dice will take them down. Similarly but more dangerously in combat because he can attack back! Your cavalry can be good here because you'll get lots of static combat resolution (2 banners, rank maybe, charge maybe), put a couple of wounds on and you may crumble a Sphinx in one round. They also can't Thunderstomp Cavalry.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Thanks for the help!

Quote:
I'd be tempted by Star Lance instead of the Bow, he needs hitting power and can switch to Great Weapon round two. Add Dragonhelm (switch DA for Heavy), Golden Crown and Shield to help him survive.


Is the +1 strength over the great weapon really worth the 30 points? I figured a few rounds of 3 S5 shots was more worth it with the nice high BS!

Quote:
I'd be tempted to swap the Skycutter out for more Swordmasters because I think it'll be easier to play.

I know what you mean, but he's never used the model! More importantly, given the lack of eagles I wondered if this would make a suitable and more dangerous stand in. I also liked the idea of flank shots through his presumably large units. Bad idea?

Quote:
maybe go Fire with the Mage

Wasn't expecting that answer, makes sense, some nice spells in there

Also meant to ask, how worried should I be about fear and killing blow? (Currently quite worried!)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Bushidough wrote:
Thanks for the help!

You're welcome sir!

Bushidough wrote:
Is the +1 strength over the great weapon really worth the 30 points? I figured a few rounds of 3 S5 shots was more worth it with the nice high BS!

Yes it is. It's all about the BSB's job. Firstly Ld re-rolls of course. But secondly he's the spearhead of a fast, aggressive unit which needs to rack up as much combat resolution as possible to blast through things ASAP. Star Lance means he wounds T8 Sphinxes on 5's instead of 6's and he completely ignores the 3+ save of Necropolis Knights for example. Crucially, he retains the ASF ability to re-roll missed hits, which is lost when using a Great Weapon. Reaver Bow is decent but that tends to work better when the BSB (or Handmaiden) pairs it with Potion of Strength for S8 shots and avoids combat. He can't shoot it and still March, which the Silver Helms very much want to do. He's also going to be taking to hit penalties for moving, range and maybe other factors which nerfs it.

Bushidough wrote:
I know what you mean, but he's never used the model! More importantly, given the lack of eagles I wondered if this would make a suitable and more dangerous stand in. I also liked the idea of flank shots through his presumably large units. Bad idea?

Firstly, the Swordmaster unit is small at 14 and will be a target for TK archery, more would be much better. Especially as the Archmage wants to sit here. Eagles tend to have sacrificial and harrassment duties that depend on them being cheap. Your Reavers partly cover these. The Skycutter works a bit differently, it's also not awesome. I guess it's about building the key parts of a list and seeing what else you can afford to bring.

Bushidough wrote:
Also meant to ask, how worried should I be about fear and killing blow? (Currently quite worried!)

Fear is low-key and any unit within 12" of your BSB is well-covered against it. Killing Blow is dangerous to your cavalry (because it ignores armour) and your characters (because it ignores multiple wounds). Striking first and hard helps reduce how many KB's come your way and Ward saves are good (hence Golden Crown on the BSB). Your Infantry pretty much don't care about it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:10 am 
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SpellArcher's advise is pretty solid.

My thoughts:

I would personally drop the spearmen in favour of more Swordmasters and White Lions. High elf core models don't fight very well. This is because S3 attacks are not very good, except against other, weak models without armour. In a normal, best case situation, they would hit about 75% of the time (with the ASF reroll), wound 50% of the time and then 33% would be saved (either heavy armour or light armour and shield for a 5+ armour save). Which means you have a 25% chance of doing an actual wound, for about 5 wounds in a round of combat (when 4 ranks can fight). Against higher T or better armour units their performance decreases rapidly.

The Skycutter is not a very good model. But it looks great, which is a good enough reason for me to include it. Don't expect too much of it and it will do ok. It's decent as flank support in combat for a round, since impact hits can be good. Though if you want to optimise, I would bring 2 Tiranoc chariots (you would need to drop something somewhere for the extra points).

My main advise it to not worry about list building too much at this point. Play the game a couple of times, get a feel for how a battle flows and how you like to play. Be prepared to lose a couple of games and most importantly have fun. From there, if you want to improve let us know how the battle went. If you post a battle report we can help figure out where you can improve, what went wrong and what was just unlucky.

TK can bring lots of fun items to the table but they are not the strongest or toughest army to face. So a lot of the things a HE player can bring are ok to bring.


Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I would personally drop the spearmen in favour of more Swordmasters and White Lions. High elf core models don't fight very well. This is because S3 attacks are not very good, except against other, weak models without armour. In a normal, best case situation, they would hit about 75% of the time (with the ASF reroll), wound 50% of the time and then 33% would be saved (either heavy armour or light armour and shield for a 5+ armour save). Which means you have a 25% chance of doing an actual wound, for about 5 wounds in a round of combat (when 4 ranks can fight). Against higher T or better armour units their performance decreases rapidly.

In general I very much agree Rod. I was thinking specifically against Tomb Kings. T8 Sphinxes might be more vulnerable to a higher number of S3 ASF attacks than a lower one of S6 without. Plus I think Spears are generally good vs TK units, with some exceptions like Necro Knights. That said, Lions are better vs shooting and Stubborn is excellent so I'm not sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Ok Guys, changes in red.

I've made the advised changes to the BSB, I missed the no armour saves bit on the lance! Slightly unhappy he lost his 6+ ward though. I'm also wondering if I should swap the Great weapon for a halberd as the Str difference won't matter against most rank and file, or sphinxes and then he can ASF reroll.

I've swapped the skycutter for a unit of shadow warriors and shuffled some points around to give the silverhelms a standard and add 2 swordmasters.

I figured the shadow warriors would be a good learning experience and would be more irritating than a second unit of reavers as he can't march anyway. They can deal with any catapults, or even the Casket given half a chance.


Archmage. (The General) lvl 4 with book of Hoeth and Talisman of Protection (High magic) 320

Mage. lvl 2 with dispel scroll (Fire magic) 145

Noble. heavy armour, great weapon, barded steed, BSB with star lance, shield, Dragon helm and Golden Crown 170

18 Archers with Musician 190

8 Silverhelms with shields, Full command 214

5 Reavers 80

25 spearmen with Full Command 255

16 Swordmasters with Full Command and BotWD 311

Skycutter with bolt thrower 120

3 RBT 210

5 shadow warriors. Champion with reaver bow 105

Total 2000

Mage with Archers, Archmage with Swordmasters and BSB with Silverhelms.

As you can see I've stuck with the spearmen. More attacks with ASF seems better, but I'm open to persuasion. Also, without them I'm slightly (16 pts) under the core requirement after the shuffling I've done.

Thoughts welcome!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Bushidough wrote:
I'm also wondering if I should swap the Great weapon for a halberd as the Str difference won't matter against most rank and file, or sphinxes and then he can ASF reroll.

Both are OK I think.

Bushidough wrote:
I've swapped the skycutter for a unit of shadow warriors and shuffled some points around to give the silverhelms a standard and add 2 swordmasters.

I feel the SW's are a bit of a luxury unit and you'll miss the extra Swordmasters Bushidough but see how it goes, eh?

Bushidough wrote:
As you can see I've stuck with the spearmen.

Worth a punt. If they don't work for you here they probably never will so it'll be informative.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:18 am 
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I think most units in the HE army book can be made to work in a friendly match. So giving the spearmen a try is a good plan. Also, you'll never figure out if something works for you or not if you don't try it. For me for instance, I always have trouble making archers work. Somehow they never manage to hit anything and get outperformed (shooting wise) by pretty much anything in the WH world walking around with some type of missile weapon. But that's probably just me.

I would say give the list a spin. It's a fun enough list with something to do in each phase. It will be a good learning experience if nothing else.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
For me for instance, I always have trouble making archers work. Somehow they never manage to hit anything and get outperformed (shooting wise) by pretty much anything in the WH world walking around with some type of missile weapon. But that's probably just me.

Which enemies do you tend to fight Rod? When using Wood Elves for example I find HE archers a real pain because they come in numbers and can deal with T3 troops without much armour. On the other hand Warriors of Chaos and Dwarfs for example aren't too bothered.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:48 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
For me for instance, I always have trouble making archers work. Somehow they never manage to hit anything and get outperformed (shooting wise) by pretty much anything in the WH world walking around with some type of missile weapon. But that's probably just me.

Which enemies do you tend to fight Rod? When using Wood Elves for example I find HE archers a real pain because they come in numbers and can deal with T3 troops without much armour. On the other hand Warriors of Chaos and Dwarfs for example aren't too bothered.

Mainly TC, Skaven, VC and Ogres.

The first two should be ideal opponents for HE shooting. But somehow I can't get them to work well. They just never deal a lot of wounds (ok, except that one battle vs OK, where a unit of 10 somehow managed to deal with a small unit of ogres...) and aren't really worth the investment. Perhaps I should practice more and make a couple of archery focused lists.

Of course it doesn't help them that most of my lists are fairly fast and aggressive lists. Which either leaves them stranded on their own or without any viable targets most of the game.

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
archery focused lists.

Some RBT and a shooting buff definitely make a difference, in a multiplier kind of way.

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