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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:48 pm 
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Green Istari

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Vermis wrote:
Nice

Thanks Vermis.

Vermis wrote:
more subtle green

I think that’s down to the lighting! In general I’ve gone for a lightish green on the goblins and orcs as they are otherwise pretty dark. My Trolls for example are darker though as I feel this works well on the larger models.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:35 pm 
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Some very cool looking old school models there. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Hi SA,

I have just finished reading the whole blog, it was fun to see the evolution of your O&G army.
You also have some cool vintage models, even older than the ones I have (I have also added quite a few more contemporary ones, recently).
Reading the HE blogs and looking at the books, I have often despaired at the thought of playing the O&G, because they seem so uncompetitive.
This is really a pity, because they are a hugely fun and characterful army.
However reading your posts I have resumed some hope that they could be good enough to have fun playing them, without necessarily being steamrolled by the opponent every time.

I have revised my army list based on what I read here - in fact, I have a couple of builds. I would not mind sharing them if you are interested.
Meanwhile, a couple of comments on your list. I am not sure if it is because you lack the miniatures, or because you dislike the liabilities of Frenzy, but I think some Savage Orcs could be useful in your army, complementing the Big Uns. You could even try Savage Big Uns...
The other thing is Doom Divers. Not sure what is it that you don't like in them. OK, the older model is not that exciting, but it is cheap to buy, it takes very little space in your deployment area and it is complementary to the Lobbers.
The newer model is more pricey, takes more space and needlessly to say works just the same, but it nicer looking in case you care for that (I don't).

Finally, your painted unit of Trolls is very cool. Can't say they are pretty, they are trolls after all.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Jimmy wrote:
Some very cool looking old school models there.

Thanks Jimmy, well met!

:)

MasterOfNone wrote:
I have a couple of builds. I would not mind sharing them if you are interested.

MasterOfNone I'd be very interested! Orcs and Goblins are definitely competitive, I just feel they have a somewhat narrower choice of strong builds than some armies.

MasterOfNone wrote:
complementing the Big Uns.

This is the crux of the matter, I believe.


The Second Orc Block

For the moment, let's take it as read that a large unit of Core Infantry is a good idea for an O&G list. Strictly speaking this should be Savage Big'Uns, so we're kind of asking whether adding a unit of normal Orcs is a good idea. The first block can bunker our (almost essential) foot characters, it is durable with T4 and a 5+ Ward and it can throw out S5 attacks. What would a second block add? Well, it can fight a little, has Steadfast and maybe can share some bunkering duties. The problem is that Infantry blocks in general aren't very good. A lot of things are good at killing them, they're slow and they don't tend to bring high Strength attacks. The first block is doing enough to mitigate these drawbacks but I don't believe a second would. The points spent on it could very likely be better used to bring more Trolls or artillery for example, both of which should be more effective. I believe there's a slightly better case for Black Orcs but this is controversial.

MasterOfNone wrote:
Doom Divers

Basically, these just aren't my cup of tea, either conceptually or in terms of models. I know this weakens the list but I'm quite sure about it.

MasterOfNone wrote:
Finally, your painted unit of Trolls is very cool.

Thank you! For some reason my painting style seems to work best on models that size.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 7:54 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:
complementing the Big Uns.

This is the crux of the matter, I believe.


Indeed. I agree with all the points you made. I think normal orcs is a waste of points.
I would like to like Black Orcs, but the reality is they are glass cannon.
Poor cousins of the White Lions, they cost nearly the same, are slow, not stubborn, and while they are T4, they can be easily killed having no defensive buff to speak of.
I have a nice unit of 25 and all the times I played them I was disappointed (granted, some of it could be my poor tactics). I feel they are overpriced for what they can do.
I still think night goblins are cheap enough that we can build a unit that is large enough to have steadfast for a little while, and bunker a shaman. I just swap shields for short bows. I know they are puny, but the shields are utterly useless anyway: they give only 6+ and no parrying (spears).

As you said trolls and artillery are the first obvious choices to have some punch. In my two army lists I have then explored two options, having artillery as a fixed element.
A perhaps less common approach is normal Savage orcs and big un boar boyz, with just a few trolls as support. The other is SO Big Uns and 8 trolls.

SpellArcher wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:
Doom Divers

Basically, these just aren't my cup of tea, either conceptually or in terms of models. I know this weakens the list but I'm quite sure about it.
[/quote]

Can't argue with taste. It's a game and if we don't like something we don't use it.

So here are my two lists, they could still have a little bit of points juggling.

#1 Trolls and SO Big Uns

29 SO Big Uns Spears, FC, BoDiscipline 369
36 Night Goblins, s.bows, NO shields, FC, netters 183
5 wolf riders, spears, s.bows, shields, musician 75
TOTAL CORE 627

8 Trolls 280
1 Troll 35
1 Goblin chariot 50
TOTAL SPECIAL 365

Doom Diver 80
Doom Diver 80
Rock Lobba 85
Rock Lobba 85
Arachnarok 290
TOTAL RARE 620

Savage Orc Lvl4 Shrunken Head, MR(2), Sword of Striking 300
Orc Warboss 4++ armour, shield, sword of antiheroes, PoFoolhardiness 203
TOTAL LORDS 503

Night Goblin Lvl2 Dispel scroll 110
Night Goblin Lvl2 Ring of Ruin 110
BO BSB Enchanted shield, talisman of preservation 165
TOTAL HEROES 385
GRAND TOTAL 2500

#2 Boar Minibus
30 SO, Spears, FC, 305
40 Night Goblins, s.bows, NO shields, FC, netters, 2 fanatics 245
5 wolf riders, spears, s.bows, shields, musician 75
TOTAL CORE 625

8 Boar Boyz Big Uns, shields, FC, BoDiscipline 228
4 Trolls 140
1 Goblin Chariot 50
TOTAL SPECIAL 418

Doom Diver 80
Doom Diver 80
Rock Lobba 85
Rock Lobba 85
Arachnarok 290
TOTAL RARE 620

Savage Orc Lvl4 Shrunken Head, MR(1), Fencer's blades 305
Orc Warboss 4++ armour, MR(3), boar, shield, great sword, PoFoolhardiness 245
TOTAL LORDS 550

Night Goblin Lvl2 Dispel scroll 110
BO BSB Boar, talisman of preservation 176
TOTAL HEROES 286
GRAND TOTAL 2499

Comments:
The seemingly useless chariot is to stay behind, covered by troops, to defend the artillery, placed in two blocks both at charge range.
There are no manglers because I don't have the models
There is the arachnarok because I have the model and am curious to see if it works. If not, there is plenty of points to boost the army in other ways
Trolls and Boars are meant to work together (also given that the general is on the boars)
I would not charge forward with the boars, it would be dangerous for them and the other units need the Ld bubble. Just use the additional movement to add charge range.
I am a bit worried about the presence of the BO in the boar big uns, failing animosity would be expensive point wise. On the other hand, not having the BO could be even worse if animosity is failed at the wrong time.
I am not sure about the utility of fanatics but I need them to make up the 625 points
The first army has all the eggs in one basket and that makes me nervous; the other no really strong unit. That makes me nervous too.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:59 pm 
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The first list is just good MON and looks stronger than mine if I'm honest. It's got the right artillery so the enemy probably has to attack. Special section is great, can't fault it. Manglers are awesome but I'm sure you know that! I've fought Arachnaroks and didn't find them amazing but they are at least a functional Monster that might do something on a flank. You've got your pick of both Lores, the Scroll and I like the MR, I'm just wondering if getting Crown of Command in might be better. The Night Goblins are decent, there's a limit to what we can do with the Core after getting the big orc block in. I don't believe the Savage Orcs can bring a magic standard though, this is one of the few advantages my set-up has. All eggs in one basket indeed but it's a very solid basket.

Second list looks objectively weaker than the first to me but still plenty playable. As you mention the Trolls become a support unit, I guess you can even try 2x2 or something. The Boar unit looks a little small to me both because of your Black Orc issue and because the rest of the army will fall apart if that unit goes down.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:54 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The Boar unit looks a little small to me both because of your Black Orc issue and because the rest of the army will fall apart if that unit goes down.


You hit the nail on the head, I think that the factors at play here are the same that have led to the demise of all types of boar riders.
They are expensive, because they have an expensive mount with a mixed bag of attributes. It is slowish for cavalry, has non-upgradeable "inbuilt barding" and has a murderous attack. The problem is that it is used only by the front rank. Any more ranks after the second are an expensive waste of the boar's main selling point.
At the same time all that you say applies.
It is difficult to square the circle, I think this is why this troop type is often dropped in favour of others.
If only one could find an intelligent way of including them. Besides, I have loads of them and they look good on the battlefield.

List 2 needs amending because I forgot to give spears to the boar big uns. This forces some changes:

1) drop the goblin chariot
2) Bulk the boars to: 10 Boar Boyz Big Uns, spears, shields, FC, BoDiscipline 294
3) Change items to the BSB like this: BO BSB Boar, sword of might, enchanted shield, luckstone 161
Retaining a grand total of 2500

However this does not really sort the main weakness, the unit is still too small.
Dropping the arachnarok, one would have the points for one mangler (65 pts) 3 extra boars (72 pts), 3 extra trolls (105 pts, use one as speed bump and a unit of 6), the rest points are for the Heroes (Ring of Ruin 25pts, replace luckstone with dawnstone 20 pts).
With these changes I would have almost 800 points invested in the boar boyz, and the list still feels weaker than the first.
If anyone can come up with a smart idea for a list that uses boar boyz (or big uns) I'd be very interested to hear. As it stands, the trolls are much better "cavalry" since they are cheaper per wound, hit harder and are more resilient.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:39 pm 
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I think the unit of 15 (including General and BSB) is a good size. Yes, you lose the third rank attacks but having those vital characters inside makes numbers really important. Once halted the characters will be doing the fighting, not the rank and file. If isolated, the Savage Orcs could be a bit vulnerable but at least they are ITP and with the Great Shaman, Ld8.

MasterOfNone wrote:
As it stands, the trolls are much better "cavalry" since they are cheaper per wound, hit harder and are more resilient.

Trolls are a good pick. They do though need the General's Ld which restricts how far they can roam. This is true of most O&G units to a fair extent. Boar Boyz are Ld 7, I feel a unit of 5 with musician is worth a try on a flank. They can also bring a magic standard, so might even be fielded in a 10 say, with full command and no characters, so long as they bring the Gleaming Pennant to deal with that inevitable failed Ld test.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:12 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Boar Boyz are Ld 7, I feel a unit of 5 with musician is worth a try on a flank. They can also bring a magic standard, so might even be fielded in a 10 say, with full command and no characters, so long as they bring the Gleaming Pennant to deal with that inevitable failed Ld test.

I also thought of that option, and ended up with a modified list #1, with just 6 trolls, no chariot and with one Lvl2 fewer to pay for the required 244 points.
I don't dare to hope they could flank and still be able to deny ranks. On the other hand they wold be good at protecting the SO's flank.

What would you use to protect the artillery at the back if the chariot were not an option?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:30 pm 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
6 trolls, no chariot and with one Lvl2 fewer

I get cuts would have to be made but I feel these are significant. 8 Trolls is a fighting unit, 6 not so much in 8th Edition IMHO. The remaining Lvl 2 would probably get functional spells but by adding the second Lvl 2 you have a much better chance of getting the ones you want.

MasterOfNone wrote:
I don't dare to hope they could flank and still be able to deny ranks.

They'd have to get lucky. On the other hand they'd very likely always have at least one rank so would be Steadfast against Monsters and powerful solo characters. It might help to break enemy Steadfast too.

MasterOfNone wrote:
What would you use to protect the artillery at the back if the chariot were not an option?

To be honest MasterOfNone you're probably more skilled at this than I am. Artillery isn't that expensive and tends to matter more in the early stages so I usually just space it out along the baseline and don't worry too much. That said, you're probably going to outshoot the enemy, so a compact deployment behind the orcs and trolls, maybe with some sacrificial elements to slow the enemy down could be an idea.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:16 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
To be honest MasterOfNone you're probably more skilled at this than I am.

I think I gave you a false impression of competence. I am MoN for a reason ;)

SpellArcher wrote:
Artillery isn't that expensive and tends to matter more in the early stages so I usually just space it out along the baseline and don't worry too much. That said, you're probably going to outshoot the enemy, so a compact deployment behind the orcs and trolls, maybe with some sacrificial elements to slow the enemy down could be an idea.


Good point, but the list is still imperfect. All your points are valid and the disadvantages from the cuts probably outweigh the gain from having the 10 boar boyz.
I am more and more settling on my #1 list. If the arachnarok does not work dropping it will probably open other interesting possibilities.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:42 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
All your points are valid and the disadvantages from the cuts probably outweigh the gain from having the 10 boar boyz.

Coming from elves, I've felt for a long time that one of the main restrictions of Orcs and Goblins is the need for almost all the meaningful units to stay within 12 inches of the General and BSB. Having a fighting unit that isn't limited to this would be really nice. This of course is one of the attractions of Boar Boyz. I'd like to go back and take a look at another possibility.


Black Orcs Revisited

MasterOfNone wrote:
I would like to like Black Orcs, but the reality is they are glass cannon.
Poor cousins of the White Lions, they cost nearly the same, are slow, not stubborn, and while they are T4, they can be easily killed having no defensive buff to speak of.

I largely agree with these sentiments but let's examine what they've got going for them. Another restriction of O&G is that it's really hard to bring an A-list fighting Lord, unlike High Elves for instance. We can't get a Ward under 4+, re-rolls to hit mean nerfing our Strength and building a strong re-rollable armour save is likewise a tortuous affair. Bringing Black Orcs allows us to field Grimgor Ironhide, who doesn't have these problems. Even better, he gives the BO's Hatred and +1 WS. With GI, this is a formidable unit. We still pretty much have to bring the Core orc block though, partly to bunker the BSB and Great Shaman. We could even run Grimgor's unit away from the main army, so long as we buy an orc Warboss General to hold things together.

Grimgor's an interesting option. What can Black Orcs bring to the table without him though? The first thing is Strength 7 attacks from rank and file. I remember throwing my Frostheart into Black Orcs and being amazed that they put two wounds on him in the first round. Sadly for them, they lost the next round by one, failed a re-rollable Ld9, Fled and were run down in their turn, setting the Phoenix up for a T3 charge into the artillery park. S7 remains useful though. Secondly, Immune to Psychology. For a unit tasked with operating alone, this is awesome. I feel Gleaming Pennant (not all units can bring a magic standard) is pretty much essential in case they fail a Break test and not having to waste this on Panic rocks. Of course they can't Flee charges but we're not buying them to do this. Also, Ld 8 isn't amazing but here I feel it's enough. In fighting terms being able to choose between Great Weapons, AHW and Shield is really nice. Against much hard stuff they're going to need those high Strength attacks, even with +1 from the Choppas rule. But sometimes going for more attacks or utilising that 4+ AS and Parry will be useful. T4 isn't amazing but it's definitely more durable than T3. WS 4 is hard to come by in the army book and they bring that.


18 Black Orcs, Shields, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant 274 pts

So this unit runs 6 wide and 3 deep to maximise attacks against a 100mm frontage while retaining some depth for Steadfast and to hopefully keep full attacks despite striking second. As mentioned it is slow at M4 which isn't ideal for a flanking unit. There are definitely units in other books that do this job better but maybe not in the O&G book. The question I feel is whether we can use a unit in this tactical role or not. I might be able to give it a try one day but for the moment painting Core is priority!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:06 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Coming from elves, I've felt for a long time that one of the main restrictions of Orcs and Goblins is the need for almost all the meaningful units to stay within 12 inches of the General and BSB. Having a fighting unit that isn't limited to this would be really nice. This of course is one of the attractions of Boar Boyz. I'd like to go back and take a look at another possibility.


I am keen to hear if you get any workable idea - keep us posted here!

SpellArcher wrote:
Black Orcs Revisited
I largely agree with these sentiments but let's examine what they've got going for them. Another restriction of O&G is that it's really hard to bring an A-list fighting Lord, unlike High Elves for instance. We can't get a Ward under 4+, re-rolls to hit mean nerfing our Strength and building a strong re-rollable armour save is likewise a tortuous affair. Bringing Black Orcs allows us to field Grimgor Ironhide, who doesn't have these problems. Even better, he gives the BO's Hatred and +1 WS. With GI, this is a formidable unit.


Formidable but still very susceptible to all kinds of ranged attacks. No ward for the rank and file means they will likely be decimated by the time they make it into H2H combat.
We need a protection for that...

SpellArcher wrote:
We still pretty much have to bring the Core orc block though, partly to bunker the BSB and Great Shaman. We could even run Grimgor's unit away from the main army, so long as we buy an orc Warboss General to hold things together.


Not sure you can have Grimgor and another War Boss acting as general. It was explicitly forbidden in previous editions and certainly goes against the fluff. Also that would certainly prevent you from having a Lvl4 shaman.

SpellArcher wrote:
What can Black Orcs bring to the table without him though? The first thing is Strength 7 attacks from rank and file. Secondly, Immune to Psychology. For a unit tasked with operating alone, this is awesome. I feel Gleaming Pennant (not all units can bring a magic standard) is pretty much essential in case they fail a Break test and not having to waste this on Panic rocks. Of course they can't Flee charges but we're not buying them to do this. Also, Ld 8 isn't amazing but here I feel it's enough. In fighting terms being able to choose between Great Weapons, AHW and Shield is really nice. Against much hard stuff they're going to need those high Strength attacks, even with +1 from the Choppas rule. But sometimes going for more attacks or utilising that 4+ AS and Parry will be useful. T4 isn't amazing but it's definitely more durable than T3. WS 4 is hard to come by in the army book and they bring that.

18 Black Orcs, Shields, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant 274 pts


All good and true but still need protection from ranged attacks.

SpellArcher wrote:
I might be able to give it a try one day but for the moment painting Core is priority!

I would have the Black Orcs ready, but I've got 30 savage orcs to paint... and many elves...

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:28 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
Not sure you can have Grimgor and another War Boss acting as general. It was explicitly forbidden in previous editions and certainly goes against the fluff. Also that would certainly prevent you from having a Lvl4 shaman.

Not in 8th edition. It's only Gorbad Ironclaw who has to be your general if you take him (and your BSB at the same time as well).
SpellArcher wrote:
I might be able to give it a try one day but for the moment painting Core is priority!

I agree. We need to see more painted models in this blog ;)

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:49 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
Formidable but still very susceptible to all kinds of ranged attacks. No ward for the rank and file means they will likely be decimated by the time they make it into H2H combat.
We need a protection for that...

This is interesting because normally I’d consider T4 and a 4+ AS sufficient. Having played Daemons for a couple of years I do take your point though MON. Maybe it depends on the context? In a WoC army it would be fine because with all the fast attack elements there’s no way the enemy could make time to target Chaos Warriors sufficiently. I guess O&G might lack the speed for this though?

Prince of Spires wrote:
We need to see more painted models in this blog

Your wish is my command!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:31 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
This is interesting because normally I’d consider T4 and a 4+ AS sufficient. Having played Daemons for a couple of years I do take your point though MON. Maybe it depends on the context? In a WoC army it would be fine because with all the fast attack elements there’s no way the enemy could make time to target Chaos Warriors sufficiently. I guess O&G might lack the speed for this though?


Normally I would agree but BO's are the harder hitting than most O&G infantry, while at the same time about half the usual unit size.
That to me makes them candidates for concentrated fire, especially considered that as you said O&G units are generally slow so you have time to pick your targets.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:08 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Your wish is my command!


Cool old style models.
Pity that arrer boyz are not that useful (IMHO). I gave away 20 of the old Marauder models not a year ago for a song, and still have some 20 oversized, uncool plastic models (6th edition?) that, half painted, are forever waiting to be finished.
I like your style of highlighting features with bold black underlining.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:
Not sure you can have Grimgor and another War Boss acting as general. It was explicitly forbidden in previous editions and certainly goes against the fluff. Also that would certainly prevent you from having a Lvl4 shaman.

Not in 8th edition. It's only Gorbad Ironclaw who has to be your general if you take him (and your BSB at the same time as well).

Correct based on the rules book, but it makes no fluff sense. Grimgor would never accept anyone but himself to be the war boss.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:00 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
Pity that arrer boyz are not that useful (IMHO). I gave away 20 of the old Marauder models not a year ago for a song, and still have some 20 oversized, uncool plastic models (6th edition?) that, half painted, are forever waiting to be finished.

The elf in me likes his bows! I also love the models and they kind of fit into my Core setup. Arrer Boyz are clearly worse than elf archers but I feel the shooting is useful in about half the match-ups. It has to be said that my unit has a habit of failing Animosity and charging the enemy which is not terribly helpful!

MasterOfNone wrote:
Normally I would agree but BO's are the harder hitting than most O&G infantry, while at the same time about half the usual unit size.
That to me makes them candidates for concentrated fire, especially considered that as you said O&G units are generally slow so you have time to pick your targets.

For me, the unit that has no right to even be on the table is Witch Elves. At T3 and no save at all they should be dead meat. The problem is you're so busy dealing with the double Warlocks, multiple Peg riders, 4 RBT, clouds of Dark Riders with combat characters that the cursed Witch Elves get to dance across the battlefield with impunity. The only time I ever saw them pay was in a tournament game of Seredain's. At the end of the phase he used a Power Stone to immolate them with Convocation. It should have been Scrolled but his opponent had gone aggressive and brought Morathi instead of a normal Lvl 4.

MasterOfNone wrote:
I like your style of highlighting features with bold black underlining.

Thank you MasterOfNone. I learned my painting limits long ago and this style works best for me. It looks quite serviceable at the unit and army level.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:24 am 
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Nice arrer boys. :) And I agree, your painting style works great on these models. Their faces are a bit more bestial or savage then the most recent models from GW. I like it.

As a HE player, a S4, T4 model with potentially a 4+ AS and a great weapon sounds pretty good, especially at 13ppm. Being wounded on a 3+ instead of a 2+ vs S5 is a pretty big deal. Yes, you still lose against the heavy hitters of 8th edition. But that goes for pretty much all infantry (except potentially phoenix guard, a 4+ ward is awesome). And the choice between either S6 or 2 attacks gives them some decent options. Even more so with the choppas +1S in the first round. having 2 S5 attacks or a S7 attack for a round is nothing to look down on.

A lot has to do with target saturation. If you've got a single model or unit with a big bulls-eye painted on its side, then that model had better be very durable. If on the other hand you've got a lot of targets running around then it's a lot harder to chose. It's why dragons (or equivalent) work. They're hard to kill. And its why the Witch Elves SA mentioned work as well. Just make sure there are other, higher priority targets to shoot at.

As for bows. The HE player in me would love to love them. But my archers are, unfortunately, blind. So they never actually kill anything...

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:59 pm 
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OK, O've given another go at a list with BO's, trying to take in what was said in the few previous posts about unit size and target saturation.
My new list is based on the better of the two I initially posted, modified as follows:

#1 Black Orcs, Trolls and SO Big Uns

29 SO Big Uns Spears, FC, BoDiscipline 369
36 Night Goblins, s.bows, NO shields, FC, netters 183
5 wolf riders, spears, s.bows, shields, musician 75
TOTAL CORE 627

18 BO's, full command, Gleaming Pennant 274
8 Trolls 280
1 Troll 35
TOTAL SPECIAL 589

Mangler Squig 65
Doom Diver 80
Doom Diver 80
Rock Lobba 85
Rock Lobba 85
TOTAL RARE 395

Savage Orc Lvl4 Shrunken Head, MR(2), Sword of Striking 300
Orc Warboss 4++ armour, shield, sword of antiheroes, PoFoolhardiness 203
TOTAL LORDS 503

Night Goblin Lvl2 Dispel scroll 110
Night Goblin Lvl2 Ring of Ruin 110
BO BSB Enchanted shield, talisman of preservation 165
TOTAL HEROES 385
GRAND TOTAL 2499

The Black Orcs would have to go one one flank outside the general's bubble because the trolls and the goblins will not function otherwise. I am still unconvinced by the mangler squig, I have never seen in action (also it's an expensive model that I don't have) and the army is very slow. There are three hard hitting infantry units that are all competing to be shot at, but with no ward save the black orcs are still the most susceptible, I fear.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:14 pm 
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I like it MasterofNone, the Black Orcs may turn out to not be that good but the rest is very solid. If you deploy them last it’ll keep the opponent guessing nicely.

MasterOfNone wrote:
I am still unconvinced by the mangler squig

I had two games at my last tournament which sum up why these are so great. First game vs Daemons, my opponent just ran straight forward and a Mangler put four wounds on his Keeper of Secrets. Second game vs VC’s the guy was much more cautious. He took both of them out but the time he lost turned a likely heavy win for him into a 12-8. In general they absolutely have to be targeted before things like Black Orcs. The Random Movement means a foe can’t take the risk of you rolling 14-15 say and hitting something important.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:07 pm 
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We've discussed several options for an extra fighting unit but what about the elephant in the room? I'll post a pic again because they seem to be popular!

Image

The Second Troll Block

It's generally accepted that one block of Trolls is a good idea. They bring a lot to the table that orcs of whatever kind just don't. First up is consistent S5, key in a fighting unit. Next is their Vomit attack, awesome against armour. 4+ Regen is almost a 4+ Ward, Flaming Attacks are an issue but rarely. Lastly they can Stomp and can't be Stomped. They are of course Stupid and Ld 4, so they pretty much need to remain within 12 inches of the General. This means that when the opponent sees them or the main block deployed, he knows the other unit will be going down next to it.

I've seen a second Troll block in several tournament lists, so why? They seem to be the best all-round fighting troops O&G have, apart from the main unit of Savage Orcs. The key thing is that that unit will usually end up sandwiched between Trolls, given the leadership issues. On the plus side this renders the main block safer and means the enemy units will have a hard time avoiding Trolls completely. If one unit starts to struggle, the other will likely be doing OK. The army will fight somewhat better in general and especially against enemy dependent on Infantry or armour.

Of course, the army will be weakened versus enemies with lots of Flaming Attacks or Initiative-based magic (Purple Sun, Pit of Shades etc.). Deployment becomes very predictable, all our fighting units will be in the same area so a proper flank assault is largely out of the question. It's likely that buying so many (16+) models won't leave points to make either unit River or Stone Trolls, thought those tend to be avoided anyway because of hot competition for the Rare allowance.

Another issue is of course, do we want to paint 16 Trolls! Personally I like variety and am inclined against this. I guess we could use say Stone Troll models for one unit and River Trolls for the other while counting all as just 'Trolls'. I also like tactical options though and double Trolls is a very direct approach. The more flexible and varied our list is, the better it should cope with a large variety of enemies. Assuming of course that our diverse units are robust enough to begin with!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:29 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
We've discussed several options for an extra fighting unit but what about the elephant in the room? I'll post a pic again because they seem to be popular!
The Second Troll Block

Funny that you mention that, I was just thinking about it today during my bike ride.
The second block of normal trolls would be almost same points as the Black Orcs, so very feasible.
Not truly a game consideration, but trolls are quite expensive, especially the nice ones you have. A block of 8 will cost much more than the Black Orcs.
If you have them, why not try... I'd be interested in hearing how they work.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:01 pm 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
Not truly a game consideration, but trolls are quite expensive, especially the nice ones you have. A block of 8 will cost much more than the Black Orcs.

This occurred to me too, as I was idly browsing eBay MON! The good thing is, some variety is available. GW alone made Stone Trolls, River Trolls (metal and plastic), Trolls (6th Edition) and plenty before any of these too. I love their Chaos Trolls but like many enthusiasts, I keep telling myself I'll do a WoC army one day.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:17 pm 
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Some progress:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:16 pm 
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Taking Stock

So it's probably time to see where I'm going with what I've got painted. Obviously I'd like to get to 2500 points in time but 2000 is the first priority. The Core units aren't quite finished but near as dammit. It roughly stands at:


Orc Warlord, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon 210
Orc Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring, 5+ Ward 280

Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour 165

27 Orc Big'Uns, Shields, Full Command, Standard of Discipline 293
18 Arrer Boyz, Full Command 156
5 Wolf Riders, Shortbows 55

8 Trolls 280
3 Bolt Shooters 105

Mangler Squig 65
Mangler Squig 65
Stone Thrower 85

1759 points


I have of course already played tournaments at 2500pts with this army but those allowed allies. I also have other troops painted but am not keen to use them. Firstly, four Snotling bases. Unbreakable is really nice and makes these a reliable redirector but they are M4, so pretty much have to be deployed in front of my centre. I have a redirector from Core already and the Manglers protect me even better. I've got 20 Goblins but these probably need another 10 to be functional and I'm already at 504pts of Core. Lastly, enough unpainted Arrer Boyz to make a second unit but again, they're Core and why would I want to?

At present, I think I've got two obvious choices, taking into account the tactical discussion in recent weeks:

1) 8 Trolls 280pts

2) 18 Black Orcs, Shields, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant 274pts

Of course I only have 241pts available so I'd probably need to drop either a bolt shooter (and the artillery is already lightweight) and/or some points from characters. Possibly a Troll. I could maybe eschew the two options above and stiffen up the artillery but what else would I add?

Thoughts welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:17 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
[I could maybe eschew the two options above and stiffen up the artillery but what else would I add?

Thoughts welcome.


I think with 241 points you cannot aim for another full combat unit - you need 2500 points for that.
Given that the core is fixed by the available painted miniatures, reducing the scope for changes in the list (no S.O.), I would add some support units, bolster the artillery and put the rest of the points in magical objects, maybe to include some MR.

1 Chukka + 1 rock lobber = 120 pts
Mangler squig 65 pts
Troll (speed bump/redirector) 35 (can drop the extra Chukka for a 2-troll minibus)
Magical objects 20 pts

I am assuming all characters stay with the Big Uns?
The Big Whaagh already has plenty of damage spells, therefore I would forego the ring for some MR:
Orc Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll, MR(3), 5+ Ward 300

Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour 165

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 Post subject: Re: A New Blog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:04 am 
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Why does it need to be 8 trolls? If you drop them to 6 or 7 you can fit them in. Does number 8 add all that much?

Alternatively, what about bringing a lvl 2? He could carry the scroll to let your lvl4 take some different shiny stuff.

Rod

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