Ulthuan

I think this nails it CR. Goblin archers aren’t bad but they are in a 20. Happily 30 with shortbows and full command is 125pts which I could just tack on to reach 625 of Core for a 2500 list if necessary. I’ve seen much bigger, especially where Poison is involved.


Quite mean isn’t he?




Thanks Olthannon! I’ve just added the wings to this standard bearer, the banner pole was looking a little bare:

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He looks suitably nasty looking forward to the end result.

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Thanks Rod, I’m making progress on him.



Artillery

So over on his blog, CaledorRises and I have been discussing possible enemy counters to his big flyers. Dragons etc. are no joke, any army needs some way to deal with them. Magic is one route, I do at least have access to Foot of Gork. But the main weapon is artillery and I feel that my stone thrower plus two bolt shooters isn’t quite enough, even at 2000pts. As mentioned I dislike Doom Divers and finding room for a second stone thrower in my case is problematic. Then I thought back to this:


I think Rod’s right you know. I’ m actually considering dropping the stone thrower and taking just 6 bolt shooters. The question is, would they be enough at 2000pts? Power lists eschew them for the classic double Doom Diver double stone thrower combo. Are they just complete rubbish or can weight of fire count for something?

We know RBT are good but BS 4 is really helpful and elves have good access to spell buffs. They also have good archery, in particular I’d have to rely on my Arrer Boyz for anti-personnel fire, problematic perhaps. One good thing is cost, the 6 total 210 points which leaves plenty for combat units. They are also Special, after spending 130 Rare points on Manglers I’d still have 370 and I’m still toying with the idea of my 360pt Stone Troll unit. Overall I feel these changes and bringing in the Arrers could give the list a real identity. So we’d have roughly:

Orc Warboss
Orc Lvl 4
Black Orc BSB

27 Big ‘Uns, FC, Shields, 15pt Magic Banner
18 Archers, FC
5 Wolf Riders, Shortbows

6 Bolt Shooters

2 Mangler Squigs
8 Stone Trolls

This would leave about 130pts or so. I’m vaguely considering a small unit of Boar Boyz. I don’t really rate them but I badly want a bit more speed. The question is of course, is the list any good?

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I like most of the list, but I'm unsure about the Spear Chukkas. As you pointed out they have a lower BS and they can also misfire making them even less reliable. Also, with that many of them, unless you form 1-2 batteries of them it seems like it might be difficult to get all 6 to bear on a single target and making batteries makes them more vulnerable. Bolt Throwers aren't the greatest against monsters also because they are only D3 wounds and only S6. A T6 monster with 5+ wounds might not be massively threatened by them because even if all 6 shoot at it on turn 1 you'll average just 2 wounds. That gets worse against a dragon because you might just hit the rider since it randomises. I think a Rock Lobba might be better because it can scatter a bit and still hit the monster with that S9 shot and that will hit both the rider and dragon and then do D6 wounds to both.

That said cavalry will be terrified of your list as it will be extremely difficult to not expose a flank shot to 6 bolt throwers and you've got lots of armor ignoring shots.

Would it be possible to drop the 6 Spear Chukkas and replace it with 2 Rock Lobbas and then replace the Stone Trolls with normal Trolls and increase the size of the Troll unit to compensate for the points difference?

I might just put this in my signature

I think at 2000pts you shouldn't worry too much about big flyers. Mounted monsters are unlikely to show up at that points level, since people approach them with a "go big or go home" attitude. And you really need 2400 pts minimum for a star dragon or equivalent I think.

However, there is plenty of heavy cavalry and monstrous cavalry at this points level, and they will not like the chukkas. The chukkas have a different kind of (un)reliability compared to stone throwers. You point them at whatever you want to hit and that is what gets hit. There just are some downsides.

I do think they perform a quite different role to RBT though. You bring the RBT mainly for the repeating shots. They're almost always better. And they really benefit from the higher BS. But they are also lower S, which gives them slightly different ideal targets. With BS 3 you're likely to hit with 3 out of the 6 in a turn. 3D3 S6 hits is pretty decent. This is also the reason I think bringing more of them is a better idea. 1 or 2 is too unreliable for any serious threat. And it makes you very dependent on dice. But with 6 of them, things will average out easier. And just the prospect of facing a lucky turn with 6 hits will make most monsters think twice and they will definitely not want to linger for 2 turns of shooting.

Also something to keep in mind is that with the trolls, mangles and Big Uns, the purpose of the chukkas is not necessarilly to kill but to take wounds off monsters. The trolls probably don't want to face a star dragon at full health. But if it only has 3 wounds left? That would make things more dicey.

Rod

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Eirik wrote:

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In general I agree with this CR.


Fill yer boots Rod!


As I noted recently on CR’s blog Rod, a list with Dragon plus double Frostheart won Milton Keynes last year. The Phoenixes fit nicely under 500pts, I’m guessing the Dragon was Moon, which remains formidable. I could certainly put up a fight but it might be tricky.


Given range and cover mods I suspect 2 hits per turn is more likely. I can live with that. Basically, I’d simply space them out across my baseline and fire at targets of opportunity, a lot easier on my poor brain!


This is an excellent point and one that will impact how free the opponent is with his movement.


Very likely more effective. I do have the prosaic issue of fitting a second stone thrower in my case though! 10 Trolls would be a bit more efficient but I like Stone Trolls and I feel the extra saves might just come in handy, particularly the MR 2. Practically, I’m likely to take stone thrower plus three bolt shooters to MK, though I might give the 6 a go at Worcester.

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So here’s the unit standard, a bit basic but he was mercifully simple to paint!

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Nice Greenskin army! I particularly like the paintjob for the Goblin archers (with Squig!) and the latest Orc standard bearer. Neat choice of models!

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The Red Host of Nir-Kezhar. Miscellaneous Commercial Sculpts. Flayman Tutorial.

Thanks very much KNC. So I’ve now (finally!) painted the Big’Uns, including characters. I’m not sure about the larger standard though, I feel it’s lacking a certain something.

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Loving the red hair and the mohawks, very fashionable (Red wunz strut fasta?)

I like the banner as is, maybe a bit of something-something on the paintjob - contrasting colour for the wings or the sunz perhaps?

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Thank you! I remember reading in one of the great sourcebooks towards the end of 1st Edition 40K that they don’t grow hair, instead they get Hair Squigs to sit on their heads!


Yeah, needs more contrast perhaps. Another angle:

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They look really good! Is that the full unit? What's next on the painting list?

Thanks CR!


Yep, 30 including characters. I feel that 5-wide it’s enough.


It was going to be the archers but...


Core Revisited

So it turns out I have a tournament at Worcester in June. Unfortunately for my painting schedule it’s at 2500, which means (amongst other things) more Core. I could simply bump my Goblins up to 30 for the extra 125 points required. More interesting though, is this:

27 Big’Uns, Shield, FC, Razor Standard 323
18 Arrer Boyz, FC 156
9 Wolf Riders, Spear, Shortbow, Shield, FC 147 626

The point of the Riders is the Special Character Gitilla da Hunter (110pts), who raises their BS to 4 and gives them Quick to Fire. Which yields a fast unit that often hits on 3’s, plus some light combat punch. Arguably they cost too much but I always feel overpriced stuff that actually adds something is better than cheaper stuff (like the Goblins) that adds little to the list. I feel that I know what each of my three units here is actually for. They’re still a bit fragile but if they get caught I’ve done something wrong, while Ld 7 and 4+ AS are at least something to work with. Thoughts?

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I think the Wolf Rider unit can do fine, it definitely can engage and defeat most enemy chaff and would also be death to any warmachines. It will also require more concentration from the enemy to bring down than a normal chaff unit. My only concern is that since it's now going to be worth 260 pts and be 10 strong it isn't a chaff unit itself any more and as you said it needs to avoid getting caught so it doesn't offer fantastic board control. I think as long as the other ~250 points you add to the list compensate for the loss of chaff it should work pretty well. The 4+ armor does also make them remarkably resilient. I think the big orc unit should also be perfectly fine for 2500 pts, it's still pretty tanky and I don't think you really need more than 6 ranks if you're fielding them 5 wide. The archers should also do just as well in the 2500 pts as they did at 2000, the chaff and warmachine hunting units they are supposed to be engaging aren't going to be getting any bigger or stronger with the points increase, just maybe a bit more plentiful.

Thanks CR, I’m hopeful.


Very true. If those points were all coming from Core I’d consider them a great spend. With those 110 non-Core though, am I throwing good points after bad? I suspect not, as the combined unit gives me a unique tactical element from an O&G standpoint (I’m usually getting +2 to hit compared to normal for example). We’ll see if it works though!


I can’t use it as a redirector, that’s true. But I’m expecting flyers and those usually can’t be redirected anyway. The Manglers will help to disrupt other enemy. As you mention, it’ll eat up enemy chaff and it’ll make other units watch their flanks, so it may have an impact, especially with unlimited Reforms and such.


The key here is the characters I think. I need the fighting BSB for example, I can’t afford the luxury of Eternal Flame or some such. They’re not awesome but they’re solid and their high strength attacks are excellent. The Shaman lurks in the second rank but there’s a spell which gives him +3 Strength and Attacks, if he gets that off he can Make Way into contact.


Against some enemies, like Warriors of Chaos, their utility is questionable. But I have good anti-armour elsewhere and lacking Doom Divers, I need something to keep elves and such honest.

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I actually think they can even do fine against WoC. Most WoC lists I've seen still include Warhounds or something that the Archers are good at picking off, and they can always try to take the Charmed Shield off a Daemon Prince before your warmachines light it up.



Fliers cannot be redirected well, true, and they should be expected, but there are plenty of enemies that cannot bring/won't be expected to have fliers that you might want a redirector against like Lizardmen, Brets, Ogres, Empire, O&G, and others. The Manglers definitely help with board control, and are very terrifying to get near, but their random move also makes them a bit less reliable at controlling enemy units. My experience with O&G is very limited, so I definitely defer to your judgement here!


What do you have in mind for the other modifications to the army? I think there were ~250 points left to play with?

Fair point. I was playing tournaments with 50% Lords and 50% Heroes where Warhounds and Daemon Princes were less common. But most events in England at least these days use 25%.


I’m inclined to try just the Manglers with no conventional redirectors and see how it goes. I can add them in next event if necessary.


The interesting thing about Worcester is that we can take Allies as Rare choices. So far I’m looking at:

4 Beasts of Nurgle 240
Skillcannon 135
2 Manglers 130

This comes to 505 which leaves 120 free of course. I guess I might draft in a unit of Furies as a redirector after all. Or possibly some Flamers.

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Hey SA! It is really cool you are still going strong. I did get an itch recently to play some WHFB but everyone around me is fully invested in T9A

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Having faced Beasts for the first time at Hockley I can say that that's just mean to include them. However, I think those are excellent choices to add to your army. The Beasts will tie almost anything down and the Skullcannon gives a very nice counter to monsters that your list might have had some issues with beforehand without the double Rock Lobba. Since you're bringing the Skullcannon will you still be aiming for 6 Bolt Throwers, or maybe cutting it down to 3? Also since this absorbs most of your Rare, are you still thinking of bringing the Troll block, but only using normal Trolls instead of Stone Trolls? I think the Trolls could still be a useful unit to have, their S5 gives them good hitting power in CC that you might otherwise be lacking, but the gap could also be filled with Black Orcs. Of course with the Skullcannon you could try to transition to more of a shooty list and keep the 6 Bolt Throwers. I'm interested to see what you come up with!

Thanks dude! We’re lucky that we still have some 8th Edition tournaments in England.


I’m a firm believer that if you make ‘interesting’ choices in your list (as I have) you have to bring some strong stuff too. There’s also quite a difference between 4 Beasts and 13!


As I don’t have the extra models yet it’ll be 3.


Yes indeed CR.


Draft 2500 List

Orc Warlord, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward, Charmed Shield 205
Orc Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring, 5+ Ward 280

Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour 165
Gitilla da Hunter 110

27 Big’Uns, Shield, FC, Razor Standard 323
18 Arrer Boyz, FC 156
9 Wolf Riders, Spear, Shortbow, Shield, FC 147

8 Trolls 280
3 Bolt Shooters 105

4 Beasts of Nurgle 240
Skillcannon 135
2 Mangler Squigs 130

2276


Clearly, this is a bit short of 2500. The Core comes neatly to 626, I’m happy with it. Special is pretty self-explanatory. Rare leaves 120pts, likely more Daemons. The Heroes are fairly set. I feel the BSB needs a Ward save, though if I can get some Magic Resistance in, I might go for the 2+ armour instead. An alternative load-out for the Orc characters is:

Orc Warlord, Great Weapon, 4+ Ward Armour, MR 3, Ironcurse Icon 221
Orc Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring, 4+ Ward 295
Black Orc BSB, Silvered Steel, Luckstone 165

This would add 31pts. I have a week to decide on something more cohesive!

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True, true, but I will now prosecute Beasts of Nurgle with an irrational rage from here on out, so I had to mention it.



I like the list so far, looks pretty solid with a strong presence in Magic, Shooting, and Close Combat. For your extra points I would suggest something fast to give your list a bit more maneuverability. If I may suggest a slightly modified character loadout, I'd give the BSB the Enchanted Shield and the Talisman of Preservation, you get a 3+ armor and a 4+ ward for the most survivable option. You can then take a normal Shield and the Armor of Destiny on your Warboss to keep his save as high as possible too. MR3 on the Orc block would be nice, but I'm not sure how much use it would actually see since a lot of the dangerous spells you'll be seeing thrown at it like Purple Sun, Dwellers, and Final Transmutation don't allow any saves, and the block is big enough that I think most magic missiles would try to find other targets. Alternately you could keep the load-out on the Warboss from your second set of characters since the Ogre Blade isn't that much better than a Great Weapon on a guy with I4. The only thing I'd be worried about there is that with just a 5+ armor save he might die a bit quickly, of course a 4+ armor isn't much better, but still.

Thanks CR. The magic’s a bit barebones but it’s functional. I wanted to keep things simple.


I’ve 120 left in Rare so I’m inclined to bring 3 Flamers. I’ve a sneaking feeling the tournament rules actually give these Flaming Attacks which would be great. I’ve lost the pdf though!


Because he’s a Black Orc this guy comes with Great Weapon (and AHW) built in. I suspect I really need to use the GW mostly. Considering Monstrous Cavalry, Monsters, Characters etc..


The first reason is Death magic, characters with just armour saves are doomed there. But the MR also works against spells like Convocation, Foot of Gork, Gateway, Curse of Years etc..


I actually think striking at I4 might be helpful. The second thing is Magical Attacks vs Ethereals though this might be a net minus because of World Dragon! Charmed Shield just gives him a slight boost against the tough stuff. The problem is that Orc fighting characters aren’t quite up to the elite level other armies have. So I’m trying to use two or three guys to put out the high strength attacks my main block needs to compete.

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The magic definitely won't beat an enemy list that's been designed around a powerful magic phase, but I think a lot of lists just include a Level 4 as standard, which you can match and the Ruby Ring could come as a surprise for someone.



I don't believe it does, but I may be incorrect. Here's the link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dawee5ogra3ff ... UkgvPPzq3s

Your points on characters are all very excellent! You've considered a lot more possible scenarios and situations your characters might end up in or ways to counter certain things than I typically do in list building, something that's probably a significant strength.


By any chance will you be in Worcester on Friday evening? I'll be taking the train up on Friday and was hoping to get a game in before the event on Saturday but thus far have been unable to wrangle one up!

There's more ethereal stuff then armies with World Dragon though. And you probably wouldn't want to engage that unit directly anyway in a manner where one guys attacks make the difference. Assuming that World Dragon will be on an otherwise tough as nails unit as well (which it most likely will be).

Rod

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For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
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I really like it here because a fifth spell is always helpful. Big Waaagh is decent but Foot of Gork requires dice, while the character snipes and combat buffs are situational. Say I have a 7v6 phase and get Fireball off on a Regen unit on one die. Does my opponent dispel it or hold onto his dice for Foot of Gork?


Thanks very much for the link CR. Must have been in a previous tournament pack of Mark’s.


Thank you! I’m still not sure yet on the final load-outs.


I’ll be driving up on Saturday morning due to family commitments, sorry.


I agree Rod, World Dragon’s not enough of a reason on it’s own to leave the magic weapon at home.

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I think this is the big thing with regards to these small kind of spells. It forces your opponent to make decisions and it's hard to say up front what the best choice is. It could very well be that the fireball results in 1 hit that fails to wound, which means trying to dispel it would be a wast. But you can just as easily roll 6 hits and get a couple of wounds in, which can be devastating. Even more so because with a one die dispel you risk failing the roll but two dice means you opponent is at an advantage for the rest of the phase. And even 6v6 dice is no guarantee you can stop whatever is cast next, which means you could let the fireball through, and then fail to dispel the next spell anyway, which means you kind of wasted your DD.

For me, this is one of the reasons a HE loremaster is such a powerful option (especially when combined with the book). Each spell then brings these choices. It's a lot easier to plan for a phase with a single big spell (like dreaded 13th) that must be stopped at all cost.

Rod

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Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

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Ah well, see on the day!



Although conversely, I've found that sometimes you can use that as a tactic. You know your opponent has to save their dice for the super spell, like 13th or Final Transmutation, so you cast multiple other spells that your opponent feels they have to let through, and then sometimes you don't even go for the big one.


So what did you finally end up with for your list? Did you decide to go with the Flamers or something else?

I went with this:

Orc Warlord, Ogre Blade, 4+ Ward, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon 210
Orc Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring, 5+ Ward 280

Black Orc BSB, 4+ Ward Armour 165
Gitilla da Hunter 110

27 Big’Uns, Shield, FC, Razor Standard 323
18 Arrer Boyz, FC 156
9 Wolf Riders, Spear, Shortbow, Shield, FC 147

8 Trolls 280
3 Bolt Shooters 105
3 Snotling Bases 90

4 Beasts of Nurgle 240
3 Flamers 120
Skillcannon 135
2 Mangler Squigs 130

So yes the Flamers are in. M6 Skirmishers are pretty mobile and they are helpful vs elves. The Snotlings are a bad pick but I couldn’t think of anything else. It’s not a great list but it has enough teeth to win a game or two hopefully.

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I like the list. It doesn't have anything in it that's a major heavy-hitter or that your opponent will have to design their strategy around, but you've also got very little added fluff in the list, the Snotlings I think are all. No individual unit/entry is a serious problem to your opponents but everything in the list is a threat. It also means that your list is quite flexible and I don't think there are any units in your army that would signal defeat if you lost them, in fact you can probably lose several units without it being a disaster, which again I think is a strength.

As a point of curiosity, what's the origin or story behind calling a Skullcannon a Skillcannon? I've seen that around a bit but don't really know the history to it.

Thanks CR. I fear it lacks focus a bit but I agree it could be forgiving.


Simply that they are so easy to use! 135 points is an absolute steal for the devastation they wreak.

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