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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:14 am 
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I have a 2500pts battle coming up. And since I've recently (well... end of last year that is) finished my dragon mage, I decided he needs to be in it. Yes, I know all the downsides. But I tend to win vs this opponent anyway, so they are acceptable. And he'll be fun. At least, that's the plan. I'll probably be up against skaven, though either TK or VC could also happen.

So, in order to get some inspiration, I'm putting the question out to U.net, what should a 2500pts dragon mage list look like?

First up, the dragon mage itself. Lvl2? What kit? Go for defence and a support role or more offensively and combat oriented (for instance star lance, dragon armour, enchanted shield, golden crown)?

What other stuff to put in the list? I'm thinking probably archmage or loremaster for some much needed magical support. Eagle BSB.
2 X 5 reavers and archers as core.
Frostheart. Maybe 2 X RBT to deal with some tougher threats or chaff.
something in special.

Let me know if you have any ideas.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:32 am 
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Gotta have White Lions and White Lion Chariots :P

I don't have a lot of experience with the 8th, but playing offensively is more fun, so I would go for that route with the Dragon Boy. How many archers were you thinking, what configuration?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Gotta have White Lions and White Lion Chariots

This would fit with Core Archers I think, though Dreaded 13th is always an issue of course.

Luna Guardian wrote:
playing offensively is more fun, so I would go for that route with the Dragon Boy

I tend to agree. Sun Dragon lacks some durability but he's not too bad.

Prince of Spires wrote:
star lance, dragon armour, enchanted shield, golden crown

I really like this. Possibly add Ironcurse Icon? Gem of Sunfire is very tempting though, a round of big Fireball and the flame template with +1 to wound could be awesome. Incidentally, it makes me wonder about this item in a big unit of Sisters for example.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Eagle BSB.

I like this guy but if playing 25% Heroes, that's the lot, pretty much. You're then looking to Lords for magic defence, obviously I'd bring a scroll.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Frostheart

Flamespyre surely?

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:43 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Frostheart

Flamespyre surely?
:)


This!

Whichever Phoenix you go with, taking 2 would be my advice. Need that target saturation.

Then I'd take an Death Archmage on a Moon Dragon :twisted:

As for Dragon Mage kit - I'd go for Enchanted Shield/Dragon Armour for a nice 2+/6++ save, Gem of Sunfire for that super-charged magic phase and a Dispel Scroll perhaps to allow the Archmage some nicer item.

Eagle-mounted BSB with Star Lance to bring the pain in close combat.

Reavers/SH to fill core. RBTs to make holes where you want to strike.

Full list:
Archmage level 4 Death, Moon Dragon, BoH, ToPreservation
Dragon Mage, level 2 Fire, Sun Dragon, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, Gem of Sunfire, Dispel Scroll
BSB on Eagle, Star Lance, Golden Crown, Dragon Helm, shield, heavy armour

15 Helms, command, shields
2x5 Reavers with bows
1x5 Reavers with spears

Frostheart
Flamespyre
2xRBT

I'd love to give it a spin myself!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:13 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Incidentally, it makes me wonder about this item in a big unit of Sisters for example.

User and mount only it seems.

RE.Lee wrote:
I'd love to give it a spin myself!

I detect a slight aversion to having chunks of Infantry sucked into the warp.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Thanks for all the input guys.

First draft of a list.
Lords 275
Archmage, lvl4, BoH, Beast

Hero's 613
BSB, barded steed, startlance, HA, dragon helm, golden crown, great weapon 168
Dragon mage, lvl2, dragon armour enchanted shield, gem of sunfire, scroll 445

Core 630
20 archers, muso 210
10 SH, muso 240
5 reavers, muso 90
5 reavers, muso 90

Special 370
15 PG, FC, razor banner 300
5 SW 70

Rare 606
flamespire
frostheart
2 * RBT

For the dragon mage, I went with RE's suggestion. Though I'm still wondering about a more offensive kit. Now he's mainly a caster with an acceptable combat phase. Going more offensive makes him more combat oriented and the casting is more a bonus.

I also added the two phoenixes. One of each kind. Both because I only have one of each, but also because I think 2 frosthearts is too strong for a casual game and the flamespire just isn't very good so I don't want to bring two of them.

BSB is on horse because of % limitations for the hero slot (we play 25%). He starts out with the SH. His kit is mainly something I had come up with for a different list. So I'm open to suggestions.

Special I wasn't sure about. You can't go very wrong with 15 PG + razor banner in my experience. But I'm open to suggestions. And the 5 SW are there because I had 70 points left over and I thought I'd give them a try (they spend most of their time on a shelf...).

The other open end is the lore for the archmage (I don't have another dragon to put him on. At least not assembled). Initial thoughts: Death, though it might be too short range, given that I only really have the archers and PG to put him in. Or Shadow, since you can't really go wrong with shadow with elves. Or High and put him in the PG. Decent support for a lot of the army. But reading through the lores, Beasts actually looks like an interesting option. Improving S or T (or both in the signature) are nice support options for a dragon mage, but also for the rest of the army. And even the weak spell of the lore (flock of doom) is pretty good vs skaven, who are uniformly T3 and lightly armoured. And of course, Transformation is just cool to have. Can't go wrong with another monster on the table.

A completely different option is of course to take a loremaster.

What do you think?

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:55 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
For the dragon mage, I went with RE's suggestion. Though I'm still wondering about a more offensive kit. Now he's mainly a caster with an acceptable combat phase. Going more offensive makes him more combat oriented and the casting is more a bonus.

I guess the Dragon is pretty much on his own now as regards killing things in combat. So you can afford to lose the Mage as far as that goes. Putting the scroll on that guy though means keeping him alive until the decisive magical moment of the battle is crucial. Normally I'd want the scroll on foot but with Dreaded 13th in play, mounting the bearer is an acceptable risk.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I also added the two phoenixes. One of each kind. Both because I only have one of each, but also because I think 2 frosthearts is too strong for a casual game and the flamespire just isn't very good so I don't want to bring two of them.

You've got three flying Monsters Rod. They could be even stronger but still. If a couple of them get into the Skaven Infantry and start Thunderstomping it could get very ugly. I feel your opponent needs at least a couple of things capable of taking them down, such as Warp Lightning Cannon or Doomwheels, to make the game competitive.

Prince of Spires wrote:
BSB is on horse because of % limitations for the hero slot (we play 25%). He starts out with the SH. His kit is mainly something I had come up with for a different list. So I'm open to suggestions.

He looks fine to me. Not especially strong but playable.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Or High and put him in the PG.

The problem with this is that the PG already have a big target on them for Dreaded 13th. Beasts is interesting but the buffs are fairly short ranged and then you have the Dreaded 13th problem again. What about Heavens and likely deploying in the Archers? Odds are the Grey Seer will get the spell off once but you can hang back and 20 bodies is probably enough to protect the Archmage from this.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:07 am 
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Some good points you bring up.

One (pretty crucial) thing worth mentioning is that I'm not very worried about dreaded 13th. My opponent doesn't like the high casting cost and considers it not worth the effort (despite me trying to tell him otherwise on a few occasions). So he tends not to take it. Which changes things around.

How would you outfit the BSB and the dragon mage?

Besides the rerolls, the BSB is there to increase the killiness of the SH bus, especially if they get stuck in combat somewhere vs a bigger unit. Same with the Dragon Mage. I'm still not decided if I should go for the offensive of the magical approach. Leaving everything up to the sun dragon sounds a bit on the risky side perhaps. That would mean moving the scroll to the archmage (or dropping it :shock: ). But that's acceptable, given the aggressive nature of the list. As said, even bringing a loremaster instead of an archmage is an option. He's perhaps a better fit for the PG, has a swiss army knife spell selection and can also run around on his own if needed. But, he's probably also more expensive, which means cutting some cost somewhere.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:35 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
One (pretty crucial) thing worth mentioning is that I'm not very worried about dreaded 13th. My opponent doesn't like the high casting cost and considers it not worth the effort (despite me trying to tell him otherwise on a few occasions). So he tends not to take it. Which changes things around.



Quite a game-changer! Thats usually the first thing to nerf.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Some good points you bring up.

Thanks Rod.

RE.Lee wrote:
Quite a game-changer! Thats usually the first thing to nerf.

It's true RE, definitely makes Rod's life easier. But there are still serious damage options of course. Plague can be horrific and a big threat to knights. Scorch is deadly against elf infantry. Warp Lightning spam can be unpleasant.

Prince of Spires wrote:
How would you outfit the BSB and the dragon mage?

As said, I'd go with your original, offensive, kit on the Dragon Mage. For BSB I'd try Dawnstone, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Besides the rerolls, the BSB is there to increase the killiness of the SH bus, especially if they get stuck in combat somewhere vs a bigger unit.

I feel the Star Lance BSB doesn't have the grinding power to take on the serious combats a Prince can. I'd be tempted to go with the tank build above and treat the unit as a kind of enabler for swift movement around of his re-rolls. Sometimes their speed will let them pick on vulnerable enemy units.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As said, even bringing a loremaster instead of an archmage is an option. He's perhaps a better fit for the PG,

Given no Dreaded 13th, I'm dying to see you try the High Archmage in PG!

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:24 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
As said, I'd go with your original, offensive, kit on the Dragon Mage. For BSB I'd try Dawnstone, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield.

This would give for the Dragon mage: lvl2, dragon armour, enchanted shield, starlance, golden crown (I think the extra magic lvl adds enough threat to justify the cost).

With this setup, the enchanted shield is no longer available to the BSB. Which gives 3 potential options to kit him out I think:
barded steed, HA, shield, dragon helm, sword of might, luckstone
barded steed, HA, charmed shield, sword of might, dawnstone
barded steed, HA, shield, dragon helm, dawnstone, GW, other tricksters shard

Roughly similar in points. The last two are a bit stronger defensively. The last one has a higher S, 1+ rerollable armour save and the other trickster shard (since there was room left over. It can easily be dropped for something else). But it doesn't have the benefits of ASF. So no rerolls to hit.

This brings me to the archmage. Keep the BoH or drop it for the scroll (which is no longer on the dragon mage). In this setup, the list is all about offence. Bringing the Book extends that even further. But giving a little thought to defence might not be a bad thing. This then frees up 30 more points. What to do with those? Potentially, with the points that were already left over in the list and dropping the lvl2 on the dragon mage, that's 75 points I can work with. Or bring the talisman of endurance on the archmage, put him in the PG and run high magic. I'm still not decided on what lore to bring for him. Either high or beast I think.

Any thoughts?

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:07 am 
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Personally I'd keep the book - the consistency it gives in both offense and defense in without par.

As for BSB builds - the last one only gets a 2+ save, right? With only 3 attacks and a WS6 you really want those re-rolls, though S6, OTS compensates for that a lot. The SH bring a lot of re-rollable lower S attacks, so I think option 3 is your best bet.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:57 am 
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I'd put Charmed Shield on the Dragon Mage. Yes 3+ Armour is a bit dodgy but 2+ isn't awesome and ignoring the first hit could be key vs Warp Lightning Cannon and such. Enchanted Shield gives you a really tanky BSB who can charge out and engage stuff solo if necessary.

RE.Lee wrote:
Personally I'd keep the book - the consistency it gives in both offense and defense in without par.

With Dreaded 13th in play RE I'd say no way, Rod would have to be ready to scroll it. With that off the table though, the choice is trickier. I'd still keep the scroll myself and yes I reckon Talisman of Endurance would be enough protection to run the Archmage in the PG, given he'll very likely get a spell off most turns. If the Skaven bring an Abomination that might actually help because Fire magic will be a big threat to it and draw dispelling resources.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:23 am 
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Battle is planned for tomorrow night! Bit later then intended, but such is life... :)

The list now stands as

Lords
Achmage, lvl 4, Book of Hoeth (probably High magic)

Hero's
BSB, barded steed, heavy armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, sword of might
Dragon mage, lvl 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, golden crown

Core
20 archers, musician
10 silver helms, shields, musician
5 reavers, musician
5 reavers, musician

Special
15 Phoenix Guard, full command, razor banner
5 Shadow warriors

Rare
Flamespire
Frostheart
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

There are 16 points left over in the list. I'm debating if I'll get the opal amulet for the archmage for a 1 time 4+ ward or if I can find another 15 points somewhere for the talisman of endurance. Any suggestions? I still might go with beasts instead (and aim for either +1T or +3 T on the archmage and see if that keeps him alive in the PG, together with some ward).

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:30 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
There are 16 points left over in the list. I'm debating if I'll get the opal amulet for the archmage for a 1 time 4+ ward or if I can find another 15 points somewhere for the talisman of endurance. Any suggestions?

If you're planning on putting him in the PG, maybe drop one PG for the points you need?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:08 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
If you're planning on putting him in the PG, maybe drop one PG for the points you need?

This. The Archmage might get away with a 6++ from Talisman of Protection because of Shield of Saphery but why take a risk?

Nice list Rod. You've got a decent magic phase, a modest but useful shooting phase (Hand of Glory FTW!) and three Monsters, with a bit of combat support and some redirectors. What's not to like?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:51 am 
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Well, the battle was had.

I did follow the suggestions about dropping a PG for the ward save, which was a pretty good choice.

Other then that, the battle went pretty abysmally. A combination of running into a hard counter to the list and some pretty awful rolling. Which pretty much made me feel from turn one that I had very few options in the battle. And this was one battle where I ended up thinking I needed a scroll. So, in this instance you were right SA. But I'll get to the report later (I first need to find a place to upload the pictures).

On the plus side, I did like the Dragon Mage (at least for the parts of the battle he was on the table). 4+ to cast fireballs is pretty cool.

Going off memory, my opponents list was something as follows

Lords
Queek Headtaker
Grey seer, main piece of equipment I ran into was warpstone token.

Hero's
BSB, storm banner
Chieftan, doom rocket
Plague pries

Core
2 X 20 slaves
25 clan rats (BSB, Seer and chieftan go here)
34 Queek stormvermin (Queek goes here)
Ratling gun (attached to the stormvermin)

Special
30 plague monks (plague monk goes here)
9 Jezails
5 night runners (with some nets kind of items)

Rare
Doomwheel
Abomination

My list as mentioned earlier.

Spells
I get
Flaming Sword and Fireball on the dragon mage
Apotheosis, Hand of glory, tempest, Convocation on the archmage

He gets
Wither on the plague monk
Dreaded 13th, skitterleap, Chain lightning and Howling Warpgale

Deployment
Image is actually from halfway through the skaven first turn
Image

Skaven, left to right
Doomwheel, Slaves, Plague monks, clan rats, slaves, stormvermin, jezails, abomination

HE, left to right
Reavers, Frostheart, RBT, Reavers, SH + BSB, PG + Archmage, Archers, Dragon mage, RBT, Flamespire

Shadow warriors scout 12'' from the abomb and jezzails, where they should be able to do something useful.
Reavers both vanguard forward until about halfway up the field.

First though is that that's a pretty hard Skaven list, compared to my mainly for fun dragon mage list. Still, I have plenty of mobility and if I can get a couple of combined charges off on some of those units then I should be allright. Also, there are some pretty big blocks in there. If I can stall a few of them and make them get in the way of each other then I should be able to deal with stuff one unit at a time. Primary targets are the right flank, with the abom, jezzails and storm vermin. If I can take those out before taking too much damage then I can wheel round and deal with the rest, which should get in each others way a lot. Hopefully.

Thoughts?

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:31 pm 
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First of all - glorious battlefield! Seriously, thats quite a sight!

On the match-up. The Skaven rares are the key bit here, as they tend to be.

The Doomwheel is a wild card but can rip through your monsters with its multi-wound lightnings. I'd redirect and get rid of it using cavalry or just take some hits with the Phoenix Guards and grind it down (they are quite a far way away, though).

The other elephant in the room - the Abomination. I'd gang up on it with monsters to bring it down as quickly as possible. It has high S, but you Frosty Aura should help with that (depending on how you interpret the Abominations attack I guess). Without Impact Hits and a Stomp it should be a relatively easy fight. Getting into combat should also protect you from the Jezzails. While only 2 will hit per turn, on average, this could still weaken your big guys in the long run.

Other than that its just big grinds with the infantry. Thunderstomp is your friend but how many S3 attacks can you take before you start going down?

Looks like an interesting start - I'll love seeing how things develop.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
First though is that that's a pretty hard Skaven list, compared to my mainly for fun dragon mage list.

It's an OK Skaven list, without being great Rod. No Bell, no Warp Lightning Cannon. Jezzails are dodgy and the Slave units a bit small. That said, it does have certain tools against your army, number one of which is:

Prince of Spires wrote:
Dreaded 13th,

Oh dear. Yes indeed you wanted a scroll.

Your opponent also has Storm Banner, which is of course key against your Monsters. It nerfs his own Jezzails but they're kind of not that reliable anyway. It also hurts your RBT, which really need to take wounds off the Doomwheel ASAP. You can buff them with Hand I suppose.

The Queek block is decent but nothing your PG/Monsters shouldn't be able to deal with. Plague Monks are sticky. Certainly that Clanrat bunker needs to keep away from your Monsters. The Abomination is unpredictable, taking a few wounds off it before combat should really neuter it. Spells on both sides look decent.

Deployment-wise the Doomwheel is definitely worrying. Looks like you'll have trouble focusing fire on it and you don't want it near your Frostheart. Like RE says, the PG were a counter, maybe you should have deployed them (and the RBT) last? The light troops might have been a bit too aggressive, I could see them going down fast. It also might have been worth deploying the Archmage in the Archers to protect him from Dreaded 13th. Definitely the Right flank to attack on.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Ah, yes - I didn't take the Storm Banner into account. That makes ganging up on stuff much harder to pull off. 13th is a pain of course, the one thing Phoenix Guards can't handle. I can see them biting it early on. We've capped casting to 5 dice, which nerfs it quite a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:18 am 
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We shall see :) The slave units were there mainly as distractions and to generally get in the way. The fast units were indeed a bit too aggressive. One of the reasons here also being that since we last played my opponent learned quite a bit (as it turned out). Which made him less aggressive then I'm used to. So there was less need for such forward play. Live and learn :)

And I agree that if I can get a couple of monsters into a block, especially combined with either the PG or the SH units then I should be able to deal with most stuff.

The Doomwheel was the last thing to go down on my opponents side, so I was already fairly committed at that point. Also, I was hoping of making a fairly fast break through on the right flank. Which indeed meant sacrificing the left flank. But if all goes according to plan then there would only be a RBT there by the time the Doomwheel got there. It should be noted that in the deployment picture the Doomwheel had already moved. It started out on the far left flank. So would take 2 turns to get anywhere close to my lines.

On to the report then.

Skaven win the roll off for T1 and chose to go first.

Skaven T1
Doomwheel rolls decently and moves diagonally towards my line, making sure the Reavers are the closest thing to ZZZAP. (which indeed shows I should have been less aggressive). Left slaves shuffle forward. Monks shuffle a bit to either make sure the reavers are in the front arc or to go down the left flank. Other slave unit walks towards the centre of the battlefield. Stormvermin also move slightly to the centre. Abomb rolls very low and slowly inches towards the shadow warriors.

Magic gives 7 PD, 5 DD. A high roll (on 1 dice) for skitterleap sees me use 2 dice to dispell. I don't want a doomrocket into my flank this early in the game. I let warp lightning on 2 dice go through on the central unit of reavers, 4 of them die. That's what they're there for after all. The remaining dice go to Warpgale. Which is cast with IF. Miscast roll of 7 sees 3 skaven die. No flying is no fun, -1 to hit with shooting even less so...

Shooting sees the Doomwheel ZZZAP 3 reavers. The remaining 2 promptly flee on a failed panic check. Gattling gun evaporates the remaining reaver in the centre. Jezzails kill 2 SH.

HE T1
Stormbanner goes up. Main reason (for combining it with warpgale) is that I now have a -4 to hit penalty to shooting.
Reavers rally and turn to face the skaven once again.
SH and PG unit move forward toward the central wall. With M2, the frostheart crawls around the back of the RBT. The dragon (with M6) walks round the archers. The flamespire inches forward to touch the forest, but doesn't want to enter, since then moving next turn would be a hassle.

Magic sees hand of glory go up on the right RBT, though only for +1 BS. A boosted 2D6 fireball does 3 wounds to the Abomb. Convocation is disspelled (just barely).

Shooting, with 37 shots does a grand total of 0 wounds.

Which gives an end of T1 battlefield of:
Image

No flying was annoying. But no shooting hurt more. Next turn the flyers can catch up. But removing some of the shooting / faster elements of his army with shooting would have really helped.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Not bad so far. Hand of Glory was a bit wasted, but 3 wounds with the Fireball is a great result so a nice magic phase in general.

Lets hope the Storm Banner runs out sooner than later!

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:17 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
13th is a pain of course, the one thing Phoenix Guards can't handle. I can see them biting it early on. We've capped casting to 5 dice, which nerfs it quite a bit.

Same goes for Dwellers.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The slave units were there mainly as distractions and to generally get in the way.

20's are interesting but they differ slightly in usage.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Warpgale. Which is cast with IF.

Unfortunate.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Stormbanner goes up.

I can see the logic but an extra turn of locking those Phoenixes down is more important IMHO.

Prince of Spires wrote:
dragon (with M6) walks round the archers

Why not throw it forwards Rod?

RE.Lee wrote:
but 3 wounds with the Fireball is a great result

Exactly, just what the doctor ordered.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:41 am 
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Could have definitely been worse indeed. It could have been better had I factored in the chance of either the storm banner or warpgale. As it stood, my flyers were stuck behind other units (which was why the dragon needed the detour) or a forest. Changing that around would have give some more useful movement.

Skaven T2
Storm banner runs out. Which is a positive.
Night runners show up behind the right RBT
Doomwheel ends up "charging" into the two reavers (flank charge). Abomb "charges" the shadow warriors. The middle slave unit moves to face the centre of the SH unit. The other moves to the top of the central forrest. The rest of the units shuffle around a bit.

Magic: 6 PD / 4 DD (including one channel on my side)
Skitterleap (on 1 dice) I let through, so I end up with a Warlock engineer (carrying the doomrocket) next to the central forest facing the flank of the SH / PG. I figured with my units a bit more spread out I could take this.
Warp Lightning (also on 1 dice) on the PG I let through. They have a 3+ ward save. What could possibly go wrong? Well, 3 hits leads to 3 failed ward saves and so 3 dead PG...
At least I have enough DD dice left for warpgale, right. Seer uses the one warpstone token he has for 4 PD. He rolls high, I fail to dispell, including the BoH reroll and am grounded for another turn. This turn I could have really used the scroll...

Shooting:
Doomwheel ZZZAAP's the reavers. But crucially misses on his first shot. Which means both reavers die, but he doesn't he the warlock engineer standing next to them. Jezzails, ratling gun and warlock engineer all aim for the SH unit, which takes a lot of wounds, leaving only 1 SH and the BSB standing. Panic is passed fortunately (thank you reroll).
The nigh runners open up on the RBT, which dies to a whole lot of poisoned shots.

Combat, as expected, sees the Abomb obliterate the shadow warriors, who then runs off the table.

HE T2
BSB + SH charge the ratling gun. Who, it turns out, can stand and shoot with his normal shooting rules (Really?). The lone SH dies, but the BSB makes it in.
Other movement: Frostheart walks towards the centre. Flamespire pivots so the night runners are at least in his front flank. Dragon moves up to the side of the PG.

Magic: 6 PD - 5 DD
I throw 5 dice at convocation on the stormvermin. Roll very low, so need the BoH reroll. Which gives me a 6 and thus IF. I kill 8 Stormvermin, which is something. Miscast comes up a 9. Pretty good result, since I have a 4+ ward on the archmage and a 2+ on the dragon mage. Of course, I fail both rolls and both of them lose a wound.

Shooting once again sees the archers fail miserably. But the RBT does 3 wounds to the doomwheel. Which is pretty good.

In combat, the BSB makes short work of the rattling gun. He overruns only a couple of inches. But it's enough to take him out of line of sight of all rats. Which concludes T2:
Image

Not a lot of positives at this point. I've killed 1 whole rat, for a unit of SH and a RBT in return. And my flyers, who should at least be in a position to do some hurt next turn have been going nowhere.

Looking at the picture, I am wondering if the PG should have moved up a bit. This would have either drawn a charge from the stormvermin or placed them in a position to charge next turn themselves.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:47 am 
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Wow, ouch!

Letting 3 spells through in a 6 vs 4 magic phase is really unlucky, especially when you can't seem to get those ward saves up.

The Ratling Gun can indeed stand and shoot, same goes for the Warpfire Thrower. Both are rather soft choices, so its not that bad I think.

Those Night Runners are in fact Gutter Runners, which makes much more sense and is bad news. Poison can hurt war machines but Phoenixes need to watch out, too. The Dragon at least has a decent armour save.

Hopefully you'll stop Warpgale next turn and put those big guys to work! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Storm banner runs out. Which is a positive.

It is because even with Warpgale up, it could simply run and run.

RE.Lee wrote:
Letting 3 spells through in a 6 vs 4 magic phase is really unlucky

The Skaven player chanced his arm and it paid off for him. Skitterleap could easily have failed and that would mean no Warpgale.

RE.Lee wrote:
Those Night Runners are in fact Gutter Runners, which makes much more sense and is bad news. Poison can hurt war machines but Phoenixes need to watch out, too. The Dragon at least has a decent armour save.

This. If he has Gutter Runners these will remove RBT's in short order. 2 x 10 say is very dangerous to anything lacking good saves.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Combat, as expected, sees the Abomb obliterate the shadow warriors, who then runs off the table.

Was this to avoid the Dragon Rod?

Prince of Spires wrote:
I kill 8 Stormvermin, which is something.

It is and the RIP could be significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:27 am 
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The Abomb indeed didn't want to try its luck with the dragon. Or perhaps rather the dragon mage. He didn't have any really good targets to charge (other then the SW), so he could have simply ended up stranded in the middle of nowhere as an easy target for either a fireball, a lot of shooting or a charge from several units.

Thanks for the correction on the Gutter runners. Skaven have too many units to keep them all apart ;)

Skaven T3
Random movement:
Doomwheel makes it into the left RBT.
Abomb moves back onto the table. We're unsure how it should react once there. Does it still get to move or not? If so, in what direction. In the end we don't feel like looking it up and trying to figure it out (any ideas?). So we decide that it moves onto the table with its back edge to the table edge and gets to move straight forward. This takes him to right in front of the dragon mage.
Charges: The right slave unit charges the flank of the PG. Fine by me. I'm not worried about them and the PG don't really have much of another target anyway.
Movement: Monks and clanrats move forward towards the centre, as does the small slave unit. Stormvermin moves back a bit to get the BSB in its front arc.

Magic: 6 PD / 4 DD
Warp Lightning on the dragon mage on 2 dice I let go through. 3 hits, 2 randomise to the dragon, 1 to the mage. Pretty decent result. Except that I once again fail a 2+ save on the dragon mage, who dies. Dragon takes one wound (I think). Dragon fails its monster reaction test (not good). But it manages to roll a 6 (good) and so is frenzied and has hatred for the rest of the game. He'll also always charge whatever is closest, but that's fine. At the moment that's the flank of a tasty looking Abomb. So all good.
Howling warpgale on 4 dice once again goes through after an awful dispell roll. Not good.
My opponent does fail to dispell convocation and so another 6 stormvermin die.

Shooting:
Doomwheel rolls low on S and so needs three attempts to dispose of the RBT. The Gutter Runners deal 4 wounds to the flamespire, leaving it on a single one. The jezzails then open up on the sun dragon and after the dust settles there is a dragon shaped hole in the battle field. So much for dealing with the Abomb.

Combat:
The slave / PG combat is a tie with charge, flank and ranks vs a couple of kills. PG reform so they have the slaves in front.

HE T3
Forstheart charges the flank of the slaves to put at least a little distance between it and the doomwheel. Flamespire charges the gutter runners. BSB once again moves out of the front arc of the stormvermin.

Magic 8 vs 5:
Magic sees Apotheosis heal the wound on the archmage (forgot that it can also heal other single models otherwise I would have gone for the flamespire). And Hand of glory on the archers for +3 BS. Convocation gets dispelled.

Shooting: With BS8 the archers open up on the Jezzails. And even with -1 from warpgale they leave only 3 standing. That's more like it.

Combat:
combats are short. Flamespire deals with the gutter runners who flee off the field. And PG + forstheart deal with the slaves who explode.

Which gives:
Image
At this point we call it a night. It's pretty late by now And with 2 whole blocks still intact and the doomwheel and the abomb bearing down on the elven line, we guess we know the outcome.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:35 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Abomb moves back onto the table. We're unsure how it should react once there. Does it still get to move or not? If so, in what direction. In the end we don't feel like looking it up and trying to figure it out (any ideas?). So we decide that it moves onto the table with its back edge to the table edge and gets to move straight forward. This takes him to right in front of the dragon mage.

Going from pg 58 and pg 27 I'd say you played it right Rod, except it can probably move in any direction

Prince of Spires wrote:
Howling warpgale on 4 dice once again goes through after an awful dispell roll. Not good.

Your opponent is getting the right rolls where he needs them.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic sees Apotheosis heal the wound on the archmage (forgot that it can also heal other single models otherwise I would have gone for the flamespire).

Awesome for Monster lists.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Shooting: With BS8 the archers open up on the Jezzails. And even with -1 from warpgale they leave only 3 standing. That's more like it.

It's like having Trueflight arrows.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Curious to hear your thoughts.

Storm Banner is definitely an issue for your flying Monsters Rod. Your opponent generating Warpgale and getting it through repeatedly compounded this. The scroll would have helped because you then get to choose a turn to fly in. Like how it can be useful to simply dispel a one-die Bound spell you didn't see coming. I also wonder if the Dragon should have been deployed so he could March 12" forwards on Turn One. You weren't able to put any pressure on with the Monsters, while your foe merrily carried on with his own game plan. I also wonder if it might be worth downsizing to 2000pts to get more turns in?

Still, look on the bright side. Your opponent got a rare win and will be keen to play you again. Then you can bring utter filth without feeling guilty! World Dragon Ho!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon mage list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:19 pm 
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I understand it was late but I wouldn't bet against the Elves at this point in the battle. With the Phoenixes perhaps getting unleashed later in the game there was a good chance of making a breakthrough, I think. I know full well how Skaven can come apart when put under pressure :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:44 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I understand it was late but I wouldn't bet against the Elves at this point in the battle. With the Phoenixes perhaps getting unleashed later in the game there was a good chance of making a breakthrough, I think. I know full well how Skaven can come apart when put under pressure :lol:

Hehe, you never know with skaven. But I think that in this case they had too much stuff still on the table that needed dealing with. If either the dragon would have survived and / or either the doomwheel or the Abomb would have been dead then I would have given myself a decent chance. As it stood now, there was too much to deal with still. The two whole blocks of clanrats and monks were going to be a pain.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Abomb moves back onto the table. We're unsure how it should react once there. Does it still get to move or not? If so, in what direction. In the end we don't feel like looking it up and trying to figure it out (any ideas?). So we decide that it moves onto the table with its back edge to the table edge and gets to move straight forward. This takes him to right in front of the dragon mage.

Going from pg 58 and pg 27 I'd say you played it right Rod, except it can probably move in any direction

Actually, rereading it, I think we played it wrong. Compulsory moves happen before reinforcements coming onto the table (similar to charges). So it's move "phase" had already passed by the time it got back to the table. So it would have been stuck at the table edge. Thinking a bit further, if you're really strict then next turn it could only move straight forward as well. To be able to move in a different direction, it needs to pivot, which takes parts of it off the table, which is not allowed. Still, it didn't matter in the game.

Looking back, there was definitely some back luck (or good luck for my opponent) involved in the game. Failing 6 3+ or better ward saves in a row for instance is not something you expect. Same goes for suffering from Warpgale 3 turns in a row, my opponent making all his casting rolls even on 1 dice, never misfiring with the ratling gun and so on. It was beginning to turn a bit turn 3. But that was too late.

Still, there are a bunch of lessons to be learned from the game.

The main one is not factoring in the stormbanner / warpgale during deployment. If I would have deployed differently then the monsters could have gotten a lot more useful movement. The dragon could have easily kept up with the PG for instance, which would have enabled more pressure on my opponent from T2 onwards.

A scroll would have been crucial as well. Scrolling warpgale T2 would have completely changed the game. It would basically have meant I could stop skitterleap (and so avoided the doomrocket), have gotten 20'' movement with all 3 monsters, which would have put them in prime position for T3 charges, even if warpgale would have been up again (you still keep swiftstride, even if you're grounded, so even a phoenix has an average 11'' charge range, which is not bad). This game showed that for all its strengths, the book of Hoeth is only limited protection vs bad dice rolls. Another option here could have been to drop the star lance of the dragon mage and replace it with scroll and a lower powered weapon. Another bonus here would have been the turn of shooting. Not having the -1 to hit would have made a big difference.

Redirectors: I was too careless with these. They ended up too far forward, which caused me to lose them for too little benefit. With 18'' fast cav movement they could have gotten to most places where they needed to be. There was a slight assumption that my opponent would be more aggressive then he was, which would have made a difference as well.

Archers: Them shooting T1 made no impact (as is to be expected when needing 7's to hit). They should have simply marched forward instead. This would have had several purposes. They would have perhaps had better shots (short range) next turns. They would have perhaps been able to charge something and influence the game with that (for instance they could perhaps have taken out the Jezzails). After all, 20 S3 attacks actually mean something vs a lot of skaven stuff. And doing so would have taken the pressure of other units earlier in the game. And, it would have freed up space for the dragon to move forward more easily. There's a 5'' or so gain in movement for the dragon by simply not having the archers in his way.

I'm also wondering if the list would benefit from more shooting. I know my archers tend to not hit anything. And that in this game they failed miserably in a lot of cases because of stormbanner / warpgale. But it somehow does feel like 10 more shots would have made for a tougher shooting phase.

What do you guys think? Anything you would have done differently?

Rod

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