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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Ever since the 6th edition I've been working on alternate variant lists for armies off and on, and since I am planning on getting back in the game, I couldn't help but do it again! Those of you who know me know that I live, breathe, and bleed Chrace, and as one of the primary landing/raiding locations for Dark Elves and Chaos, I figured there would also be a logical reason for Chrace to have its own primary army make up, to meet the enemy as the combined armies of Ulthuan were assembling.

Since I don't have the time to fully re-format this list for forum context, please take a look at the Chracian Warhost behind a Google Drive link! The fluff for my army is also behind another link (if you're interested).

All comments welcome :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:27 am 
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Having trouble with the link but it's probably just my dodgy internet connection. Will try again later.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:29 am 
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I think it is really cool!

However I was surprised, are Phoenix Guard Unbreakable, 4+ Ward and cause Fear? I think that is a little too strong :wink:

Also maybe I misunderstood but Martial Prowess only has an effect for spears and bows/longbows right? However all models have the rule, is this intended?
In the beginning I thought that Martial Prowess granted FiER for all infantry.

Also Silver Helms for 20 ppm are quite cheap :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:37 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Having trouble with the link but it's probably just my dodgy internet connection. Will try again later.

Please do, I value your input :)

elendor_f wrote:
I think it is really cool!

Ah, I see you're a very intelligent person with great vision :D

elendor_f wrote:
However I was surprised, are Phoenix Guard Unbreakable, 4+ Ward and cause Fear? I think that is a little too strong :wink:

They are strong, true, but the loss of Speed of Asuryan drops their points down too around 15 IMHO, and Unbreakable is about 3 PPM. My issue with this is that they would completely edge out the niche for White Lions with it, but with 8th Edition rules and lack of SoA the White Lions need some serious rework anyways. That being said, maybe the PG would be just better as 15 points and regularly breakable :P

elendor_f wrote:
Also maybe I misunderstood but Martial Prowess only has an effect for spears and bows/longbows right? However all models have the rule, is this intended?
In the beginning I thought that Martial Prowess granted FiER for all infantry.

There's probably a reason why I have that in there for every unit, I'm just not sure what it is...

elendor_f wrote:
Also Silver Helms for 20 ppm are quite cheap :mrgreen:

They used to be 21ppm last I played, and their comparative effectiveness seems to have dropped, so I felt a small discount was warranted. It's not like it will make a massive difference though.

Thanks for the comments, keep them coming!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:37 pm 
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A lot to take in. It looks mostly balanced to me but obviously hard to judge without playtesting. Archers are the best HE Core Infantry in 8th and they look like a good pick here.

Maybe Unbreakable is too much for a durable unit like PG. In 8th Stubborn is widespread but not unbalanced because units get wiped out more than in previous editions. But PG rarely run anyway, they are so resilient.

I think the new troops need Unit Type designation, this is key in 8th. For example, are War Lions Monstrous Beasts or Warbeasts?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:11 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
A lot to take in. It looks mostly balanced to me but obviously hard to judge without playtesting. Archers are the best HE Core Infantry in 8th and they look like a good pick here.

To be honest though saying that Archers are the best core infantry we have is not saying much :P . I tried to make all Core choices interesting and playable without making them overpowered in the 8th :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Maybe Unbreakable is too much for a durable unit like PG. In 8th Stubborn is widespread but not unbalanced because units get wiped out more than in previous editions. But PG rarely run anyway, they are so resilient.

Maybe you and elendor are right, drop the Unbreakable and drop the PG to 15 :)

SpellArcher wrote:
I think the new troops need Unit Type designation, this is key in 8th. For example, are War Lions Monstrous Beasts or Warbeasts?

I pictured them being Warbeasts, they'd have to be truly fearsome to be monstrous. That might actually be a unit idea however...

Also, an idea struck me! With the loss of ASF, the White Lions are up the creek. However, what if they got some rules to change their purpose, similar to Wardancers dances. A few options that come to mind are: "Striking in initiative order when charging despite Great Weapons", "Immune to Fear and Terror for 1 round" and "D3 Wounds to Monsters (including MonCan and MonInf)"? That would give them a clear niche and allow them to benefit from the mobility provided for them by the Forest Striders. It would also take them back to their roots waaaay back in the 5th edition (IIRC) when they had something of the sort?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:21 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
It would also take them back to their roots waaaay back in the 5th edition (IIRC) when they had something of the sort?


They were sooo OP back then :lol: Super skills both when charging and being charged made most units cry!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:43 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
It would also take them back to their roots waaaay back in the 5th edition (IIRC) when they had something of the sort?


They were sooo OP back then :lol: Super skills both when charging and being charged made most units cry!

Back then they might've been, but being inspired by 5th edition nowadays isn't that bad. They need something to set them apart from PG and SM, surely?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:06 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
They need something to set them apart from PG and SM, surely?

I think you probably first want to think about what role they should get in the army. And from there you can start thinking about what rules to give them.

In both the 7th and the 8th ed book, there is very little to set SM and WL apart (even more the case in 8th then in 7th). They don't have clear and separate roles. And as such, you can have arguments over which is best. And they usually end up with a direct comparison of how many kills they cause vs which type of army. PG on the other hand have a very different skill set and different role in the army. So the comparison is usually very different.

As such, I would start there, what is the difference between them? For instance, SM are an infantry blender type unit. Change their rules slightly to reflect this. WL then, could be monster hunters. So perhaps give them D3 attacks vs monsters and MC.

elendor_f wrote:
Also maybe I misunderstood but Martial Prowess only has an effect for spears and bows/longbows right? However all models have the rule, is this intended?

It could be a hold over from the current HE book. There all models have Martial Prowess as a rule and they all fight in an extra rank as a consequence. It's not just limited to spears and bows.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:09 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I think you probably first want to think about what role they should get in the army. And from there you can start thinking about what rules to give them.

Monster hunters and bodyguards make the most sense fluffwise, and would give them a distinct role to play in the list :) . In this list they'd also be fieldable without mages :P .

Prince of Spires wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
Also maybe I misunderstood but Martial Prowess only has an effect for spears and bows/longbows right? However all models have the rule, is this intended?

It could be a hold over from the current HE book. There all models have Martial Prowess as a rule and they all fight in an extra rank as a consequence. It's not just limited to spears and bows.

This is probably why, I took the latest book as the starting point when writing this list and didn't even think of that.

Some changes to earlier:
1) Speed of Asuryan changed to include "Models with this rule strike in Initiative order regardless of weapons"
2) White Lions given "Monster Hunters" rule: Wounds caused by this unit against Monsters, Monstrous Cavalry, or Monstrous Infantry become D3 wounds.
3) Phoenix Guard lost Unbreakable, points drop to 14
4) Sisters of Avelorn moved to Special, 0-1 choice +1 per Handmaiden in the army
5) Daroirii moved to Rare
6) RBT back to 8th edition power and cost (a necessary concession for the meta, that thinks that RBTs are must-haves and on the verge of OP even in the 6th and 7th edition)
7) Unit types added

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
RBT back to 8th edition power and cost (a necessary concession for the meta, that thinks that RBTs are must-haves and on the verge of OP even in the 6th and 7th edition

I think your initial take was interesting Luna. In 8th, 4 RBT are pretty much a given in power lists unless you are bringing double Frostheart. They're cheap, reliable and give you really important board control.

Luna Guardian wrote:
Speed of Asuryan changed to include "Models with this rule strike in Initiative order regardless of weapons"

This will make a huge difference to Lions and I kind of think they (and Swordmasters) need Martial Prowess too.

Luna Guardian wrote:
To be honest though saying that Archers are the best core infantry we have is not saying much

Martial Prowess really helps them. Shooting and fighting in 3 ranks makes a difference. Sure they're Strength 3 but ASF makes them a surprise in combat and buffs like Hand of Glory are awesome on them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:16 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
RBT back to 8th edition power and cost (a necessary concession for the meta, that thinks that RBTs are must-haves and on the verge of OP even in the 6th and 7th edition

I think your initial take was interesting Luna. In 8th, 4 RBT are pretty much a given in power lists unless you are bringing double Frostheart. They're cheap, reliable and give you really important board control.

I would have preferred the higher strength, higher cost alternative as well, but when making fan-made lists the opinions of the meta must be taken into consideration.

SpellArcher wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
Speed of Asuryan changed to include "Models with this rule strike in Initiative order regardless of weapons"

This will make a huge difference to Lions and I kind of think they (and Swordmasters) need Martial Prowess too.

I agree, but it was the only way I could think of to make White Lions fieldable in 8th. I'd be interested in hearing why you think Martial Prowess is needed with units other than Archers and Spears though, to me it just seemed like a very powerful rule that wasn't represented in the points. Please enlighten me :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
To be honest though saying that Archers are the best core infantry we have is not saying much

Martial Prowess really helps them. Shooting and fighting in 3 ranks makes a difference. Sure they're Strength 3 but ASF makes them a surprise in combat and buffs like Hand of Glory are awesome on them.

Might be my old 6th and 7th experience talking, but I like the versatility and distribution of assets of 2x10 Archers over 1x15 and some points. The 10 Archers will still likely be able to deal with a lot of usual threats (fast cav, scouts), whereas more serious threats like heavy cav or flying monsters will destroy them no matter what.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:53 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing why you think Martial Prowess is needed with units other than Archers and Spears though, to me it just seemed like a very powerful rule that wasn't represented in the points. Please enlighten me

In 8th, HE had 2 rules that made them a decent army. ASF and fight with an extra rank. Both give the HE army a very hard punch. The other side is that most HE units are very fragile and that everything gets to strike back. With step up and fighting in two ranks by default, you will in a lot of cases take 10 attacks back. That is a lot of expensive elves you will be removing from the board. Especially if you get stuck in drawn out combats. If you mathhammer it, then in a lot of cases you need those extra attacks for the numbers to even out. So you need a hard punch a you need to try and avoid drawn out combats as much as possible. Which is where the two army wide rules come in.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:00 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing why you think Martial Prowess is needed with units other than Archers and Spears though, to me it just seemed like a very powerful rule that wasn't represented in the points. Please enlighten me

In 8th, HE had 2 rules that made them a decent army. ASF and fight with an extra rank. Both give the HE army a very hard punch. The other side is that most HE units are very fragile and that everything gets to strike back. With step up and fighting in two ranks by default, you will in a lot of cases take 10 attacks back. That is a lot of expensive elves you will be removing from the board. Especially if you get stuck in drawn out combats. If you mathhammer it, then in a lot of cases you need those extra attacks for the numbers to even out. So you need a hard punch a you need to try and avoid drawn out combats as much as possible. Which is where the two army wide rules come in.

Rod

This is why I personally despise Step up :D

I seem to recall way back in the day that there was talk about a potential melee ward save (similar to Parry) for High Elves in melee to offset the disproportionate impact Step up has on expensive and low toughness low AS troops. Was there ever any conclusion reached what this would have to be to keep the HE competitive in melee?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:17 am 
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I don't know enough about 8ed but in 9th Age they gave all Elves a rule called Lightning Reflexes, which says that you get a +1 to hit in close combat (always), and models with this rule and any modifier that sets their Initiative to 0, or the I of their close combat attacks to 0 such as a great weapon, ignore both the Ini penalty and the +1 modifier.
Swordmasters then got the rule that they apply the +1 to hit anyway (so SM hit on 2+ to most units since they have WS 6).

Essentially this makes all Elves strike on I order regardless of their weapon, as you suggested for White Lions. It also helps their damage output in combat by making all of their attacks more likely to hit.
Several people in the 9th Age forum say that it is frustrating when elite Elven units destroy other elite infantry without them being able to attack back, and that they would prefer if Elves got some defensive bonuses instead of being complete glass cannons.

I don't know how true this claim is (about Elven elite infantry destroying other elite infantries), but the rule was given to Elves to indeed balance the sheer amount of attacks that units can put out due to Step Up and Supporting Attacks, which is a similar case to 8ed.
There needs to be a way to balance Elves when the whole combat shifts to grinding because Elves are awful at grinding (what Rod said).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:35 am 
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Your point was one of the things I disliked about 9th Age Elendor. In 8th World Dragon and Shield of Saphery render HE elite infantry reasonably durable and actually decent at grinding. 9th Age's shift to killyness is not my bag. Strking at Initiative with Great Weapons (and no re-rolls) is pretty balanced IMHO and avoids some of the "you killed my unit before it could strike" issues.

Luna Guardian wrote:
I seem to recall way back in the day that there was talk about a potential melee ward save (similar to Parry) for High Elves in melee to offset the disproportionate impact Step up has on expensive and low toughness low AS troops. Was there ever any conclusion reached what this would have to be to keep the HE competitive in melee?

The High Magic spell Shield of Saphery in the 7th edition book worked pretty well and of course this book was used early-mid 8th. I don't recall my Swordmasters losing a combat with it up (it gave a 5+ Ward). It was reliable because you could auto-select it and the foe would usually be too busy stopping other magic to dispel it. Similarly, the Shield of Saphery High Magic Attribute in the 8th edition book can generate Ward save pretty reliably because it doesn't matter which specific spells you cast and the spam phase is still there. You need an Archmage in the unit but with a 3+ Ward he is safe enough.

Luna Guardian wrote:
Might be my old 6th and 7th experience talking, but I like the versatility and distribution of assets of 2x10 Archers over 1x15 and some points. The 10 Archers will still likely be able to deal with a lot of usual threats (fast cav, scouts), whereas more serious threats like heavy cav or flying monsters will destroy them no matter what.

But what about a 20-strong unit? It loves shooting buffs (Hand, Enchanted Blades, Flaming Sword) and is getting towards block territory. 24 say can potentially hold on Steadfast for some time and pretty much replaces Spears/LSG in most lists. 2 x 10 is OK but the split fire benefits tend to be handled by RBT. It depends what style of list you're running of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:08 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
I seem to recall way back in the day that there was talk about a potential melee ward save (similar to Parry) for High Elves in melee to offset the disproportionate impact Step up has on expensive and low toughness low AS troops. Was there ever any conclusion reached what this would have to be to keep the HE competitive in melee?

The High Magic spell Shield of Saphery in the 7th edition book worked pretty well and of course this book was used early-mid 8th. I don't recall my Swordmasters losing a combat with it up (it gave a 5+ Ward). It was reliable because you could auto-select it and the foe would usually be too busy stopping other magic to dispel it. Similarly, the Shield of Saphery High Magic Attribute in the 8th edition book can generate Ward save pretty reliably because it doesn't matter which specific spells you cast and the spam phase is still there. You need an Archmage in the unit but with a 3+ Ward he is safe enough.

Luna Guardian wrote:
Might be my old 6th and 7th experience talking, but I like the versatility and distribution of assets of 2x10 Archers over 1x15 and some points. The 10 Archers will still likely be able to deal with a lot of usual threats (fast cav, scouts), whereas more serious threats like heavy cav or flying monsters will destroy them no matter what.

But what about a 20-strong unit? It loves shooting buffs (Hand, Enchanted Blades, Flaming Sword) and is getting towards block territory. 24 say can potentially hold on Steadfast for some time and pretty much replaces Spears/LSG in most lists. 2 x 10 is OK but the split fire benefits tend to be handled by RBT. It depends what style of list you're running of course.

These solutions seem to push a heavy magic configuration though, and though magic can be (and is) fun, I much prefer to run a prince, BSB, and two lvl2 mages (pretty much impossible in 8th though under games of 3k as I understand?). It would be both better balanced and allow for more variety if our units didn't NEED spell effects to make them perform well or survive any length of combat.

EDIT: How about all High Elves get a 5+ Parry save in melee regardless of weapons?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:32 am 
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I think with percentage based character allowances you can run a Prince and an Archmage if you play 2400 points or more (Lord allowance is 25% I believe).
At least I remember Seredain's list doing that (he had Prince, BSB and Archmage, and sometimes another Mage iirc).

@SpellArcher I think with the 2.0 rules and the new books Elves won't need to be so killy but I guess we'll see at the end of the year (2.0 and DE new book are scheduled to come there).
I imagine that if the 8ed HE book was over-reliant on BotWD they wanted to remove that over-reliance.
In any case one of the things I actually liked in the 7ed book was Shield of Saphery, much better as a number 1 spell than Walk Between Worlds of the 6ed book :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:30 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
In any case one of the things I actually liked in the 7ed book was Shield of Saphery, much better as a number 1 spell than Walk Between Worlds of the 6ed book

Wonderful spell.

elendor_f wrote:
I imagine that if the 8ed HE book was over-reliant on BotWD they wanted to remove that over-reliance.

You can build strong lists without it but those tend to involve 3+ Ward Phoenix Guard. The early 9th Age drafts replaced it with a banner that gave 5+ Ward vs ranged attacks, 6+ in combat, which I really liked. But they axed that for one that gave +1 Strength on the charge, which I didn't like at all.

Luna Guardian wrote:
EDIT: How about all High Elves get a 5+ Parry save in melee regardless of weapons?

This might work in the absence of Martial Prowess?

Luna Guardian wrote:
I much prefer to run a prince, BSB, and two lvl2 mages (pretty much impossible in 8th though under games of 3k as I understand?).

This set-up should work fine. Because you'll always have at least four spells and 2D6 Power Dice each magic phase, not to mention two Arcane Items.

Luna Guardian wrote:
It would be both better balanced and allow for more variety if our units didn't NEED spell effects to make them perform well or survive any length of combat.

That's one way to look at it. Another is that the book really encourages the elements within it to work together for best effect. But as Curu Olannon pointed out some time ago, this plus things like World Dragon and the potent fighting characters tend to encourage mid-large units often with multiple characters, whereas a lot of 8th edition armies incline towards MSU. Swordmasters in particular really need this kind of help whereas 20 White Lions with World Dragon can be more of a stand-alone unit because they survive ranged attacks better.

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