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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:00 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:52 am
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Hi all. Have been slightly inactive on the forum due to work and focusing on painting and organizing my WFB armies, sorry for that. My last posts were a few months ago and I appreciate all the comments and help I got (as well as the warm welcome back to the hobby).

My folks were selling their house and required I clean my old closet out, much to my surprise I came across the treasure chest of my hard earned allowance\chore money which I spent on war hammer figurines. I have since sold my orcs and goblins army that I finished painting and was able to swoop up a few more unpainted armies with the loot. I started a warhammer group and now own large armies for Empire, Lizardmem, WOC, DoC, Skaven, Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarves, Wood elves, High elves and Vampire Counts. The remaining members of the group own dark elves and tomb kings. I'll probably paint up the Wood Elf army and sell it on eBay like I did with the orcs and goblins and use that money for a trip to mini war gaming up in Canada to play some wfb with the crew (still too noon to plan this anytime soon). Feel free to check out my Instagram abwarhammer if you want to see some of my paint jobs or see any of my low key battle reports.

High Elves are probably my favorite to play but after falling back in love with the hobby I've honestly enjoyed them all. I do well with high elves but really struggle against dark elves and lizardmen most. Long story short here are some questions: some are specific, some are general. Forgive me if these are noob questions, but hopefully it helps get some discussion going to help some of us new guys to the game (returning). Feel free to reply to as little or many of the below.

1. What's a good way to deal with Salamander's. Archers have been such garbage to use against LM. High toughness and lots of skirmish to hit penalties. My only things that seem to work are magic missiles or small cavalry units. If I don't roll a magic missile I'm screwed. Anything good?

2. I use the battle scribe app to make my army lists and I noticed that it let's you pick a regular shield as well as a magical one. When I load up my bsb noble I always do heavy armour, sword of might and shield of merwrym. Further more it also stacks the regular shield -1 to the AR save. I'm fairly sure I've been cheating and getting additional armour save bonuses this way. I've also been stacking armour and magic armour this way, like the loremaster of hoath heavy armour and the armour of fortune. Ive had that as a 3+ AR save. Can I get clarification on if magical items stack bonuses or if they replace regular bonuses?

3. Synergy. I plan on doing a huge battle soon basically using every model I own. Ill type out what i have in a separate comment from this post,or a different thread. Anyways....synergy is a High-level question, but worth asking the veteran high elf players. What lords or heroes work best in which units? Example: Anointed with his 6 ward save in a unit if spearmen helps a lot, but what other benefits does he have and is that the best spot for him. What's the Max ward save high magic lore attribute can stack to, its 3+ right? So a Phoenix guard unit might only benefit 1 extra save, besides an archer bunker or silver helm bus what's a good unit for this guy? I'd love to hear others thoughts of what goes great where. So literally feel free to comment how you use Lords and heroes in your units on any scale game , I'll benefit learning it all! Id love to maximize synergy regardless of point sizes. I'm extra curious on Korhil and Alarielle placements.

4. Does the banner of flame count for ranged shooting?

5. When using a dragons flame breath, do you use the template from its head...or from the base of the model? I see so many battle reports using the head , but most of the games rules seem to use the base! Also is it shooting phase or close combat attack? Does it apply for combat res? (The steam tank and ogre kingdoms ice breath banner confuses me too).

6. When a combat is lost and the loser breaks and runs. Where do you measure the flee distance starting from? The front of combat? The rear model? Or center of unit? This is harder to type out than what I expected. Lol. Let's use the 3 ranks of spearmen. They roll a 7 inch flee. Is the former front rank guy now 7 inches from the front rank of the enemy? Or is the back rank placed 7 inches from combat? Same question when fleeing from a charge.

7. When you decline a challenge and go to the rear, can you still make a single supporting attack? (If that rank is able to make them)

8. Thank you for your help and apologies for the long post. I was going to post the list of models I have but this probably isn't the best thread for that. Probably should have posted most of this in the rules forum too. Sorry.

Cheers,
Virtue


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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Hi Virtue

You're making good progress!

1. Archers aren't bad vs skink spam because of Toughness 2. But against Salamanders the short answer is Dragon Princes for the 2+ Ward vs fire. The long answer is what's in your usual list?

2. A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, Magical ones replace mundane. Main rulebook, pg 174.

3. I've tended to see the Anointed in PG because he's the hardest foot character we have, complementing the PG's resilience. Korhil dies easily so I haven't seen him in a lot of lists. Alarielle usually appears in a White Lion Horde with Banner of the World Dragon, or 'Queenstar' as it's often known.

4. Yes, pg 69.

5. Per pg 67 a Breath Weapon attack can be used once per game. If not in combat the teardrop template is placed with the thin end touching the model's mouth. If in combat no template is used. Instead the attack causes 2d6 automatic hits, any wounds caused count for combat resolution. Dragonhide Banner works similarly. The Steam Gun is comparable, except it can be used every turn.

6. Per pg 57, a unit Fleeing from combat is rotated around it's centre to face directly away from it's enemy. It then Flees it's 7" (or whatever). So each model will move 7" forwards from that rotated position. When Fleeing from a charge (per pg 17) a unit immediately rotates around it's centre to face directly away from the centre of the charging unit. It then Flees it's rolled distance away.

7. Pg 102 "is not allowed to attack that round".

8. No worries, you're welcome.

:)

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:20 am 
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SpellArcher covered all points. I'll just add in a few of my own thoughts.

2. Indeed, it's only one of each type. (it's also mentioned in the BRB p502). One thing to note here is that helms are a bit an odd one. Since you can't take a regular helm items like the dragonhelm don't replace any mundane equipment. Which is why it's relatively popular (so you could take heavy armour, shield, dragon helm for a 3+ save).

3. You tend to not see very many characters on foot in HE armies. Mainly because of the armour issue you discovered above. It's hard to make a durable HE character on foot that also hits hard. But also because the elite infantry can do a lot of the things a character can but then cheaper. The annointed is an exception since he comes with an inbuilt ward save. Mages are another exception, but they either hide in the back or are stuck on the end of a unit to try and minimise attacks directed at them. Cavalry combat characters are a lot more common. They add a lot to cavalry units. Both in terms of durability (Barded steed, HA, shield already is a 2+, and then add in a ward save), but also in combat potential. Especially in later round or when you haven't charged.

High magic indeed only stacks to a 3+ ward save. So PG "only" benefit from 1 High magic spell. Still, in my experience the regular 4+ ward save already makes them pretty bad-ass. With a 3+ ward save they are absolutely horrific. That's 2 out of 3 attacks directed at them that don't do anything, even before factoring in to hit and to wound rolls.

How people run their characters is a very personal choice and the source of a lot of discussions. I tend to run with a minimum amount of characters, but I know a lot of people use a lot more. I enjoy having a monster mounted character (prince on dragon usually). And he comes with a BSB and a lvl2 mage. Other options are Archmage, BSB. Or Archmage, mounted prince, BSB, lvl 2 mage

I haven't used either Korhil or Alarielle. From what I've read it really depends how tough you want to make your list. The option SpellArcher mentions is indeed common, with Alarielle in a White Lion Horde with BotWD. It might just not make you many friends. It's a S6 unit that is virtually immune to magic and magical shooting (with a 2+ ward), has a 3+ save vs shooting, a 5+ ward vs regular attacks (which can increase to 3+ with high magic). Basically the only way to reliably deal with this unit is with magic spells that don't allow saves (like dwellers or dreaded 13th).

5. The reasons I think most people simply put the breath weapon template against the base instead of the mouth of the model are the it's a lot easier and it works the same for all models without having to factor in conversions etc. Just imagine you've modelled a dragon which is standing in the middle of the base with it's head up in the air instead of to the front of the model. This model would have half a base less reach with the template then a model with its head at the front of the base (about 2''). And on the other extreme you can have a model which has its head over the edge of the base and in this manner can get an extra 1'' of distance. So, to keep it fair most people simply take the edge of the base.

6. Indeed. When a flee distance of 7 is rolled then after the unit has moved, the distance between the two units is 7''. And since the unit turns around when fleeing that 7'' is between the front rank of your unit and the back rank of the fleeing unit. It should be noted that when you are pursuing, the only thing that matters when trying to catch a fleeing unit is the number rolled, not the actual distance between units. So if a unit flees 7'' and a pursuing unit rolls 6'' it will never catch the fleeing unit. This can come up when you have a combat with multiple units involved. A unit in the flank generally has less distance between it and the fleeing unit then the distance rolled. But in this instance that is irrelevant.

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:37 am 
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Wow thank you both for the wealth of information. Its better than I deserve.

SpellArcher:
1) I'm prob 2 for 10 against lizard men so my list varies as I grow frustrated with certain games results. My typical list includes a level 4 mage with the book of H. Usual Lores are high, life, shadow. I do use a bsb until games reach about 1250 to 1500 + . its just tough to find the points for him. 1 to 2 units of archers. (LM player rarely uses skinks skirmishers). A unit of PHX guard. 1 to 2 bolt throwers. A frost phx if the game is big enough. Silver helms and dragon princes I sadly shy away from because its hard to send them into a full strength 24 strong saurus warriors. I also don't put my heroes or lords on mounts yet. I'll try a list next time with a focus of silver helms and princes. I play defense on high elves and it works great against most other armies. I'll try more aggressive lists!

2) SpellArcher and Rod: dang whoops. Well good news is I help make the lists for everyone and double up on stuff for both armies equally.

3) Spell + Rod: def want to try the queenstar out. Probably only when I'm feeling feisty though lol. I'll have to paint up my mounted characters. Have about 10 mounted models, including a dragon. But I eventually want to get a massive game going using nearly every model. So I'll need to try to learn the mounted HE character game better than at some point.

4) sweet.

5) crap, I've done the template even when in combat lol. I've also used the icy blast more than once too. Salamander's get to use breath weapons every turn right? What about when they are in combat? Still 2d6 or no because its slow to fire?

6) moving the fleeing unit and having every model at least X inches away is a simple way to do it. Idk why but bus formations seem to make me go retarded then trying to resolve flee distances.

7) saurus hero's and lords are gnarly. A good predatory fighter roll can dish out a ton of attacks. Im faced with them destroying the champ in the 1st challenge, then either one of my characters or then smoking the unit and adding to combat res. Its rare I refuse a challenge against LM, cuz a old blood or scar vet wrecks the unit otherwise :(


LM slann, cheap skink signature spell spam, great melee toons, cheap S4 T4 core, salamander block infantry killers, good LD and cold blooded, predator or poison on 6s. The only games I win are when I use nuke spells. Literally that's the only way I've been able to win. Will try a focus on cavalry and mounted characters. I'd love to win a game without a nuke spell! If I cant then I'm def dropping the Queen star on the table soon.

-Virtue


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:16 pm 
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VirtuePHX wrote:
Its better than I deserve.

Au contraire!

1) I'd be very interested to see a typical 2000pt HE list from you Virtue. That would help us understand why you're struggling.

5) Salamanders Spout Flames is not technically a Breath Weapon, it's a pure Shooting Attack so can't be used in combat but can be each turn if not.

7) Saurus characters are hard. We have guys who can hurt them, notably with Giant Blade because S7 wounds them on a 2 and takes a big chunk out of the armour saves they tend to rely on. But the best counter depends on your overall army build. Star Dragon eats them alive.

The early pages of this, epic, blog, go into how to beat Lizardmen in great detail:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:43 am 
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Hey SpellArcher,

My usual game sizes are 750 and 1250. It's actually been a while since I've done a full 2k point game. I'm not opposed to playing myself since I own and keep all the armies in my WH group other than Dark Elves and Tomb Kings. Sometimes I've set up a unit vs unit just to practice the amount of attacks/banners ect. by myself but haven't play a full game solo. Want me to toss down my 750 and 1250 point lists? I also have 3 2k lists, just haven't used them yet. My 750 and 1250 lists are built around a PHX guard unit with archers as support. This size game I'd think would help me because it prevents my opponent from taking Mr Toad Slann. But HE are such an pricey army it's tough to get a proper anvil and hammer plus magic plus shooting (let alone a decent bsb) The typical formation I'm up against, Saurus block(s) flanked by salamanders with a skink priest hiding behind the Saurus... the spells for Beasts or Heavens just makes the list so we'll balanced. The skink leadership and Initiative are the weakness of the LMs. But cold blooded and usually Stubborn due to ranks is just too hard for me to tackle with my usual set up. (Unless I get a nuke spell).

I literally primed my dragon model today while I was waiting for my Loremaster to have an ink wash dry. Can't wait to try it in a game...and probably F up all the rules for it.

On a side note, I played a small game today vs Empire. (Was a busy day painting a Loremaster start to finish and priming models) Instagram : abwarhammer . The steam tank causes terror, but it's movement is compulsory. If it moves X D6 and hits me, does that unit need to make a terror test? It's not actually a charge so idk how terror works outside of fear tests once in combat. I was already in combat so it wasn't a real in game problem, but it got me curious.


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