Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:48 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
Hello,

My and my mate rotate armies and the High Elves are nearly unbeatable. We house ruled a max 10% archers but even then we just cannot beat them. They are fast, reliable, ASF with re-roll, BOTW,... Only Ogres have beaten them in close combat and that because my crazy opponent took absolutely no shooting (against Ogres!).
The armies we play are Bretonnia, Empire, Skaven, OnG, Ogre Kingdoms and Beastmen.

What are the weak points of High Elves? How did the other armies manage to beat you?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2555
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Dwarfs shoot me to death :lol:

Skaven tar-pit and cast 13th on the elites.

Tomb Kings won once but that was a miracle.

Chaos hasn't faced them yet.

Empire does rather badly in general, though concentrated shooting is probably the answer.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:05 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
Hi raccoonhat

raccoonhat wrote:
We house ruled a max 10% archers but even then we just cannot beat them.

Archers should not really be that great, especially vs armoured armies like humans.

raccoonhat wrote:
BOTW

This makes a huge difference.

raccoonhat wrote:
The armies we play are Bretonnia, Empire, Skaven, OnG, Ogre Kingdoms and Beastmen.

Beastmen tend to struggle generally, except under End Times. The others should all be able to put up a decent fight. RE makes some good specific points. In general, High Elves are indeed a strong army but they do have weaknesses.

Firstly, all elves are Toughness 3, including characters. This weakens mages slightly. Princes can compensate by loading up on defensive magic items. Nobles though, are too vulnerable to make good fighters, with the partial exception of those on horseback. Rank and File also suffer, though again elites less than Core. A typical High Elf has T3 and a 5+ Armour Save. Against Strength 5 for example, this is useless, even a T4 unarmoured model is better off. Toughness impacts shooting, magic and combat, it's 'always-on'. Happily, many High Elves have access to good saving throws. Reliance on these though can leave them vulnerable to attacks which ignore armour or spells like Dreaded 13th which allow no saves at all.

Secondly, elves are expensive, which makes units and armies smaller. In general, High Elves can't fight wars of attrition well, instead preferring to fight in fewer places at a time and to go for a quick knockout rather than long, grinding combats. Units can be powerful but the army can't afford to waste them.

There are a few more specific points. The army lacks cannon. RBT are cheap and good but not as destructive. It takes Psychology and Break tests as normal. Leadership is high and the troops can Flee charges but overall, it's better not to take these tests, like Daemons say or Undead. Lastly, it lacks units of Monstrous Beasts or Monstrous Cavalry which tend to be strong in other armies.

We've seen a Skaven list in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70112

I'd be very interested to see an example list you've used vs High Elves from one of the other armies.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:57 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7133
Location: The city of Spires
In general I find that I lose when I get stuck in 1 on 1 fights or if my opponent dictates the flow of the battle. Of course, this goes for most armies and battles in general. But in my experience, elves don't like getting stuck in longer fights. We're too weak and expensive to suffer multiple rounds of return attacks.

In part it's basic points values. Yes, a HE model will in general kill a skaven slave without suffering any return attacks (and thus will not take a wound). But for one HE WL you get 6 of them. And in the end, they still hit on a 4+, wound on a 4+ and you only get a 5+ save against them. So, you don't want to remain stuck in a combat for longer then you have to.

I'm really surprised you've had such success with archers. For me they rarely wound anything. In a previous battle I was already very happy they managed to cause 8 wounds on a unit of basic ogres over the course of a battle.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2555
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Yup, archers are pretty basic shooters (they actually compare pretty badly to Tomb Kings). Its fun how they can defend themselves against mediocre light troops, though. While stuff like handgunners get demolished when they get into contact with anything, our guys can scare away most light cavalry. The fight/shoot in extra rank helps here as they can maintain a pretty deep formation. Then there's ASF.

Still, Silver Helms are better :wink:

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
If you take all core archers, you have 60 archers at 2.K
Which means 60 shots at BS4 in the first round, 60 in the second round and then a stand and shoot.
That is 180 shots which will wound on a 6.
That hurts #-o

Here's the list I used with my Skaven army, tailor made to defeat HE...I was crushed
Just as I crushed his latest Skaven list (mind you, he had no Stormvermin, that's just silly)

LORD
Warlord (GW, Dragonhelm,Other tricksters shard,Tal of pres, Tail, Poison, War-Litter)
Grey Seer (Foul Amulet, Dispell scroll)

HERO
Warlock Engineer (LVL1, Warp condenser)
Warlock Engineer (Doom rocket)
Warlock Engineer (Obsidian amulet)
Assassin (Portents of Verminous Doom, Potion of foolhardiness, Dragonbane gem, Tail)
Chieftain BSB ( BSB, AoD, Halberd, Shield)

CORE
51 Skaven slaves (Champion, Mus)
51 Skaven slaves (Champion, Mus)
50 Skaven slaves (Champion, Mus)
35 Stormvermin (FC, Lichebone pennant)
+ Poison Wind Mortar
2 Packmaster
10 Giant Rats

SPECIAL
5 Poison Wind Globadiers (Poison Wind Mortar)
7 Gutter Runners (Champion, Slings, Poison)
6 Gutter Runners (Slings, Poison)
6 Gutter Runners (Slings, Poison)

RARE
2 Warp Lightning Cannon
2 Plagueclaw Catapult


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2555
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Thats... a very odd Skaven list #-o

A lot of poison against an army with low toughness? I get you'd want some gutter runners to deal with RBTs and perhaps a monster, but 2 mortars and plague catapults? Poisoned wind globardiers? Thats quite soft.

The Stormvermin horde looks ok, as do the Slaves. The cannons are always useful. Hard to say if you want to go forward or stay back and shoot.

Did the HE list look like the one in the "2.5K with Prince versus Skaven" topic?

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
I never said I wasn't odd :D

His list had lots of small units and a BOTW Phoenix Guard mage bunker. Frostheart Phoenix, Dragon princes, 2 x 5 reavers with spears.
I took out 2 guys before I blew myself up I think.
The brass orb scattered, the doomrocket didn't do much damage.
The gutter runners should have had larger units. Poison....it sounded good at the time :mrgreen:

What would you recommend?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:07 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
RE.Lee wrote:
Thats... a very odd Skaven list

There are some things I like and some I don't. I agree with your criticisms RE and I don't like the Warlord here either. But the biggest miss for me is the Storm Banner, which would make a clear difference against those Archers. I would take Earthing Rod to protect against Miscasts and pass the Dispel Scroll to a Warlock Engineer. The magic phase is very solid though, the Seer is a major threat. Doom Rocket is good.

With Storm Banner the list can put up a fight. Cannon should counter the Phoenix (which will be grounded so long as Storm Banner is active), Dreaded 13th is a huge threat to his bunker. Lore of Ruin and Gutter Runners give you a counter to smaller units.

raccoonhat wrote:
If you take all core archers, you have 60 archers at 2.K
Which means 60 shots at BS4 in the first round, 60 in the second round and then a stand and shoot.
That is 180 shots which will wound on a 6.
That hurts

The main answer to this is a 2+ Armour Save, basically knights. Hence Bretonnians should be fine. Empire can bring Demigryphs and Steam Tanks too. Ogres should consider Mournfangs. Orcs and Goblins should bring Mangler Squigs or other cheap Impact Hits like Goblin Chariots and push these forward. The Archers will shoot them but Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers will shoot back. Beastmen should probably Ambush, though massed Chariots are pretty resistant to archery, a solo Doombull with good saves is a solid idea.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:35 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7133
Location: The city of Spires
SpellArcher wrote:
raccoonhat wrote:
If you take all core archers, you have 60 archers at 2.K
Which means 60 shots at BS4 in the first round, 60 in the second round and then a stand and shoot.
That is 180 shots which will wound on a 6.
That hurts

The main answer to this is a 2+ Armour Save, basically knights. Hence Bretonnians should be fine. Empire can bring Demigryphs and Steam Tanks too. Ogres should consider Mournfangs. Orcs and Goblins should bring Mangler Squigs or other cheap Impact Hits like Goblin Chariots and push these forward. The Archers will shoot them but Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers will shoot back. Beastmen should probably Ambush, though massed Chariots are pretty resistant to archery, a solo Doombull with good saves is a solid idea.

I agree, it mainly hurts when the archers have a good target or when you ignore the 60 archers during list building or deployment. And it assumes the archers don't have to move. And they have an ideal target to shoot. Deploy 6'' away from the edge of your deployment zone and those archers can't hit anything T1 unless they move. And moving seriously impacts their efficiency. Also, against a fast unit like SH which is 24'' away you only get 1 round of shooting without stand and shoot if you don't get first turn. Which happens about half the time. After all, those 500 core points also gets you 23 SH, which in a worst case scenario take 8 wounds going in. And that's assuming all archers are in a single unit (which is probably not a good idea). But even then, 15 of them will hurt the 60 archers in combat. And keep them occupied long enough for some other unit to finish them off (in combat, you kill not even 1 SH per turn). According to the math, the 15 SH will kill 6 archers, have a charge and equal ranks and take no wound in return. Which means that the archers will test on a 2 or a 3. And very likely run.

As SA mentions, most other armies have answers too. Either in heavy armour, high T, fast units or weird stuff. As for skaven, they should bring the storm banner. That for at least 1 turn is a hard counter to a lot of stuff in the HE army.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
Good points.

This was the last army I used against HE. I got outmaneuvered like a snotling general but what do you guys think about the build of the army?

Lords
Savage Orc Great Shaman (Lucky shrunken head, Obsidian Trinket, Fencers blades) --> counts as lvl 2, with SO unit (duh)
Black Orc Warboss (Glittering scales, Talisman of Preservation, Other Tricksters shard) --> NG big unit

Heroes
Black orc big boss (BSB, Armour of Destiny)
Goblin shaman (Lvl 2, Opal Amulet, Power stone, Wolf)

Core
40 Savage Orc Big Uns (Mus, Extra hand weapon, SB)
66 Night Goblins (spears, SB, Netters, Mus, 1 Fanatic)
20 Night Goblins (bows, 2 Fanatics)

Special
1 Goblin Wolf Chariot
5 Trolls.

Rare
2 Mangler Squigs
3 Snotling Pump Wagon (+ Extra strength)
1 Arachnarok Spider


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2555
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Haven't played O&G in like 15 years :lol:

Grounding Phoenixes with the Storm Banner is super fun. Tie it up with slaves as it tries to run away with M2. Consider an Assassin with Warpstone Stars and Potion of Strength. Profit.

Take on cavalry with a horde of Stormvermin with the Razor Banner.

Spam that 13th like crazy. No way the Phoenix Guards will avoid getting hit at least once. Like Spell Archer said, take Earthing Rod for extra protection.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:04 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
RE.Lee wrote:
Potion of Strength.

Add Weeping Blade for a character-killer.

RE.Lee wrote:
Spam that 13th like crazy. No way the Phoenix Guards will avoid getting hit at least once.

Quite so RE. One time you'll miss the casting total, once will get Scrolled. Another might get Diced. But it'll get through sooner or later and when it does those elite troops and expensive characters might as well be goblins. I have unhappy memories of the game I played vs double Dreaded 13th.

raccoonhat wrote:
This was the last army I used against HE. I got outmaneuvered like a snotling general but what do you guys think about the build of the army?

It feels like half of a good list. It's got loads of harrassment, which is a pain in the butt for High Elves because we don't like taking Impact Hits. The Savage block is very good. But a good HE player will take his time, clear the chaff and pick on the Arachnarok, the Trolls etc while keeping the Savages away from anything juicy. Basically, the list doesn't make life hard enough for the enemy, it lacks easy ways to hurt, like artillery and focused magic.

raccoonhat wrote:
Lords
Savage Orc Great Shaman (Lucky shrunken head, Obsidian Trinket, Fencers blades) --> counts as lvl 2, with SO unit (duh)
Black Orc Warboss (Glittering scales, Talisman of Preservation, Other Tricksters shard) --> NG big unit

The Shaman is excellent. I'm not sure you need the Warboss but he should go in the Savages, the Night Goblins are purely a blocking unit. If so I'd switch OTS for Crown of Command maybe.

raccoonhat wrote:
Heroes
Black orc big boss (BSB, Armour of Destiny)
Goblin shaman (Lvl 2, Opal Amulet, Power stone, Wolf)

BSB is fine. I'd make the Shaman an Orc and give him a Dispel Scroll. Little Waagh is decent but I feel you need to double up on Big Waagh. That gives you a 90% chance of Foot of Gork. You could really do with the threat of this.

raccoonhat wrote:
Core
40 Savage Orc Big Uns (Mus, Extra hand weapon, SB)
66 Night Goblins (spears, SB, Netters, Mus, 1 Fanatic)
20 Night Goblins (bows, 2 Fanatics)

Mostly looks fine, I'd try to get some 5's of Wolf Riders in as disposable distractions instead of the second Night Goblin unit.

raccoonhat wrote:
Special
1 Goblin Wolf Chariot
5 Trolls.

The chariot is OK on it's own terms but I'd drop it to use the points elsewhere. The Trolls are good but need to be 8 or 9 strong to stand up in combat.

raccoonhat wrote:
Rare
2 Mangler Squigs
3 Snotling Pump Wagon (+ Extra strength)
1 Arachnarok Spider

Virtually all competitive O&G Rare sections have 2 Manglers, 2 Rock Lobbers, 2 Doom Divers, dull but you need them. Yes the artillery will miss and Misfire but it'll also hit a lot and will murder anything relying on armour.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
Good suggestions, thanks.
The black orc warboss is there to quell animosity.
Wolf riders would have been better and I missed the warmachines.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:14 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
raccoonhat wrote:
Good suggestions, thanks.

You're welcome sir.

raccoonhat wrote:
The black orc warboss is there to quell animosity.

It's a good idea but here I think keeping the Night Goblins disposable and the Warboss safer is more important.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:03 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7133
Location: The city of Spires
In general (especially when list building) you want to give your opponent as many tough choices as possible. Which is what SA's suggestions do with the O&G list (and also what the Skaven suggestions are about). By taking some serious artillery, you make it hard for an opponent to keep standing still or to tackle only part of your list at once. The doom divers (when successful) can remove sizeable chunks of cavalry from the table per turn for instance. And the rock lobbers are great at dealing with infantry (although PG can shrug off the worst of it in my experience).

This same logic is behind his thinking on the chariot and smaller night goblin unit. Chariots can really hurt. Especially elves, since one of their strong points is the fact that they go before most other things. Which makes them hate stuff that is even faster. But only 1 chariot is not reliable or painful enough to force hard choices on your opponent. Yes, D6 impact hits can hurt. But there is a decent chance you'll roll a one or a two for impact hits. And the next round of combat it's dead in the water. 3D6 hits on the other hand is something you want to stay away from. 10 S5 hits (on average) is not something you want to suffer as a HE unit. And 20 NG are a bit an undefined unit. It's not a complete steadfast anvil that will keep most things stuck in combat for a while. But it's also not really a cheap throw away roadblock. And 20 S3 BS3 shots don't really add much in terms of shooting.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
I like the reasoning behind your points (that goes for all of posters above).
I should focus more on the specific role of a unit in my army and the overal synergy.
I have horrible luck with warmachines, but giving up on them means that the enemy has no real incentive to come closer and fight with those delicious close combat blocks. Especially in low magic games.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:34 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
It also matters that those war machines cost 330pts.

Not much considering what they bring to the table.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group