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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Hello,

I'm up against Skaven in the near future. It's 2500 points and no level 3 or 4 allowed. Also no double Phoenixes or Abominations.
What do you guys think about this ?

LORDS
Loremaster of Hoeth (Book of Hoeth, Shield of merwyrm, Sword of might) --> Joins Phoenix Guard
Prince (Shield, Heavy Armour, Dragon Helm, barded steed, Ogre blade, Tal of Pres) --> Joins Dragon princes

HEROES
Noble (Talisman of 5+, Biting blade, barded steed, Charmed shield, BSB, Dragon armour) --> Dragon princes

CORE
10 Archers (Musician)
11 Archers (Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers (Musician)
30 Spearmen (BS, Musician, Standard of Discipline)

SPECIAL
13 Dragon Princes of Caledor (FC,Champion has Star lance & Enchanted Shield, BOTW)
24 Phoenix Guard (Musician, BS, Banner of flame)

RARE
2 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2 Great Eagle


Any pointers on how to deploy? I'm really bad in that department :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Hello!

With no level 4s allowed the Skaven will be facing an uphill battle. A lot of builds depend on the Seer - that 13th spam is just too good to miss out on, especially against elite infantry. With magic options limited your opponent will likely take the Stormvermin Deathstar approach, with Slaves blocking your units as he tries to deal with you one by one, using concentrated force.

Your list is pretty well equipped to slaughter rank and file, I think. The big unit of Phoenix Guards is always a good option (good call with those flaming attacks - the A-bomb is a priority target) and the Loremaster magic will boost it even further. You might consider joining the spearmen, too, to provide a wider spread of threats.

Dragon Princes have a lot of attacks, so against light infantry do well even in a prolonged combat. Not sure you need the Star Lance - the Skaven don't really have high armour saves - a simple +1S might be helpful in a grind on the other hand.

I'd take a bigger unit of archers probably - 18 is a good number that will do well in combat against lighter units, while 10-11 - not so much. A small unit of silver helms could be useful, to chase away Gutter Runners and such. I'd probably find that more useful than Reavers.

The rare section is what I always take - nice and flexible.

For deployment I'd pick a corner and go there with the shooters and infantry, while the DPs, SHs and eagles go to the other side and attempt a flanking maneuver. As I mentioned, without their principal magic threat the Skaven are likely to come to you - be ready to intercept them on the way.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:44 pm 
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@RE.lee: how about a SAD skaven army? Skaven have lots of lovely shooting options that can really hurt HE.

In general, things to watch out for are the toys in the magic item sections. Since skaven are a 7th ed book still, they have a huge amount of strong options in there (compared to 8th ed. books at least).

With no lvl 3/4 allowed, the Loremaster feels almost like cheating. Loremaster + Book is a strong option, even in a game vs a lvl 4. Now, even more so. Personally I would put him in the spearmen to begin with. PG don't need that much help (though the razor standard works wonders on them) and he adds some needed punch to the spearmen. I would also take more protection and forgo the Sword of Might.

I would drop the Star Lance on the DP champ. Not much need for it. +2 or +3 S makes little difference vs skaven. Especially if you have loads of other S5 attacks backing you up. higher S attacks in later rounds are a lot more valuable. Even more so when you factor in the chance of ending up in a challenge with a lowly unit champ round 1.

It's a nice enough list I think. A refused flank is usually the way to go vs Skaven. They will have more units and models. By refusing a flank you can fight part of the army with your whole army and use his numbers against him.

Let us know how the battle goes.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:02 pm 
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With a Seer the SAD is still the way to go, I think.

Without you're left with double cannon, some gutter runners (not so useful against HE), jezzails and weapon teams (both very susceptible to shooting). Not bad but hardly reliable. Even less so if you consider those are all magical attacks against an army with the BotWD option.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:56 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
gutter runners (not so useful against HE)

I've found these to be a bit of a pain for my bolt shooters but they won't slow down the main push I guess.

RE.Lee wrote:
all magical attacks against an army with the BotWD option.

Just golden here.

Prince of Spires wrote:
With no lvl 3/4 allowed, the Loremaster feels almost like cheating. Loremaster + Book is a strong option, even in a game vs a lvl 4. Now, even more so. Personally I would put him in the spearmen to begin with. PG don't need that much help (though the razor standard works wonders on them) and he adds some needed punch to the spearmen. I would also take more protection and forgo the Sword of Might.

He's good but this set-up misses the Scroll. Happily the bus is almost immune to Skaven magic and the Phoenix Guard don't need to worry about Dreaded 13th.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I would drop the Star Lance on the DP champ.

There is of course a rules debate about whether a champ can even take it but if both players are content that's not a problem.

RE.Lee wrote:
With no level 4s allowed the Skaven will be facing an uphill battle. A lot of builds depend on the Seer - that 13th spam is just too good to miss out on, especially against elite infantry.

This, this, this. No Bell either. I'd be tempted by a Plague Furnace here because it's a real threat to the PG.

raccoonhat wrote:
Also no double Phoenixes or Abominations.

In general Phoenixes are better but Aboms are one of the few things that will give your bus pause for thought. The use of DP's weakens your Core set-up but that unit and to a lesser extent the PG, will be a huge threat.

raccoonhat wrote:
Any pointers on how to deploy? I'm really bad in that department

Like the guys say, some kind of angled/flank approach maybe combined with a firebase because you'll be outnumbered. Put the bus and PG down last to avoid showing your hand too early. But get that lethal bus forward ASAP!

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:54 am 
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Sweet Tyrion, this site is alive!
My last army list at the OnG forum got zero replies.


Thanks for all the feedback .
So two flanks would be fun.
The star lance was there for charging a doomwheel actually.
I was wondering about the loremaster and spearmen, lots of wonderful buffs. Wil the PG work on their own?
What is a sad Skaven army :) ?
I'm worried about plague monks and a furnace, asf will help of course.
I took the reavers as core since another restriction is only 10% archers. HE have won 13 out of the last 14 games, the archers are just too good :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:54 pm 
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raccoonhat wrote:
Sweet Tyrion, this site is alive!
My last army list at the OnG forum got zero replies.

You know it dude! We're still painting, we're still playing and we're still posting.

raccoonhat wrote:
Wil the PG work on their own?

Yes, they're very reliable.

raccoonhat wrote:
What is a sad Skaven army ?

Shooty Army of Death/Doom. Horrific in 6th edition. The army can still put out very respectable firepower but there are more counters in 8th.

raccoonhat wrote:
I'm worried about plague monks and a furnace, asf will help of course.

Hard to shift but can be redirected and/or combo-charged. It'll munch most infantry though.

raccoonhat wrote:
HE have won 13 out of the last 14 games

I'd suggest dropping World Dragon. Without it your bus is still a big threat but he has counters. With the Banner it's a world of pain for him.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Drop the BOTWD?
No, small misunderstanding. I haven't won a game in over a year against this guy with my other armies. No more mister nice Orc, time to bring out the Elves :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:30 pm 
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If you get to charge the Doomwheel its not really a problem. It only has a 4+ save anyway!

Elves can bring the pain to Skaven, you should be good :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:13 pm 
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I think he'll go for the Squeek Headtaker (I've been wrong before). If he does, I think the best thing to do is avoid him at first and go for the flank/rear attack later? Or deathsnipe him If I get the chance...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Squeek is pretty strong, as are his Stormvermin, but he's a glass cannon. Especially against High Elves, who get to strike first, he's done for in any challenge. His extra rules won't even come into play most of the time.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:31 pm 
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raccoonhat wrote:
Drop the BOTWD?
No, small misunderstanding. I haven't won a game in over a year against this guy with my other armies. No more mister nice Orc, time to bring out the Elves

Hmm, so the 13/14 wins were vs other players?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:41 am 
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We have about eight armies that rotate between the two of us. We only play each other. High Elves win almost every match. We just cannot win against the pointy eared half gods. Ogres are the only ones that have beaten them and that's because he took a HE close combat army against them...bad plan. So we took a break from HE since the result of the match is known beforehand.

After not winning for over a year, 4 draws and 4 losses I think, I would like to win a match. My opponent agrees that I can use some motivation, so I return to my first love, the unstoppable HE.

If I lose the next match with them, I want an extra 250 points in the match after that just to level the playing field :)

The problem is that his tactical skills have grown considerably and mine have not. Reading the eagle tactica on this site in the train every day to improve on this. Other tips welcome :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Interesting. High Elves are a strong army but I wouldn't say that strong. Ogres can be an awkward match-up. Archers are generally regarded as passable but not scary.

raccoonhat wrote:
The problem is that his tactical skills have grown considerably and mine have not. Reading the eagle tactica on this site in the train every day to improve on this. Other tips welcome

This thread has a lot of tactical info, especially the early pages, especially for the kind of list you've got here raccoonhat:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:42 am 
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In our meta of two players, the HE are tier-1 and alone there. They crush Skaven, Empire and OnG every time. They haven't played against Beastmen or Bretonnia yet but that should not be a problem.
If we ever played other people we might find out why they are not over the top for everyone else :D

Going through the Elf prince thread. Wonderful stuff indeed. Reading a page a day, will keep me busy for more than a month!


Last edited by raccoonhat on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Interested to see whether the High Elves keep their run going. No pressure!

:)

raccoonhat wrote:
Going throught the Elf prince thread. Wonderful stuff indeed. Reading a page a day, will keep me busy for more than a month!

The thread that launched a thousand lists.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:55 am 
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The Elf prince thread is a great resource. Not just for HE armies but also for how you can approach the game in general. It's a great starting place for anyone who wants to improve their play.

The thing with HE (in my mind) is that as long as the army sticks together it's great. However, once you manage to isolate parts of the army it can start falling apart quickly. HE units are too expensive and fragile to get stuck in drawn out one on one fights.

I think HE are middle of the pack in 8th ed. It does help that the other armies you list are also not top of the pack. Beastmen, Bretonnia and OnG are generally placed in the lower half. Empire has some strong builds that can really hurt HE and Skaven can be anywhere, depending on their build, but they can really put the hurt on HE as well when combining dreaded 13th, hordes and the different toys they have available. Still, Skaven have the same issue as HE in that once you can deal with parts of the army at the same time it can start falling apart fast.

Let us know how the battle went :)

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:50 pm 
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The enemy
He had
- 2 x 50 slaves
- 2 x 30 clanrats with weapon teams
- 2 x 10 gutter runners
- Plague censor bearers
- Plague monks
- lvl 2 Ruin, lvl 1 Ruin, lvl 2 Plague
- 2 x 3 jezzails
- 2 x Warp Lightning Cannon

Start
He actually had less drops than me and I got to put my Dragon princes away from the jezzails. Lots of scenery and I got to put many units behind buildings. So far everything is coming up Millhouse.
The first two turns were wonderful, I shot his weapon teams, harassed his WLC, his gutter runners were not carrying poison so couldn't hurt a fly with their throwing stars.

Middle
His gutter runners charged my archers and then my RBT's. I thought the archers could handle them but that was a mistake. He skitterleaped some engineers but they did very little. My princes destroyed a skavenslave unit and a WLC but were attacked by both the monks and some clanrats with a Warlord with Skavenbrew. He also sniped my Loremaster with his other WLC

End
The Warlord had a magic weapon, no problem. He challenged my unit, which led to the entire clanrat unit not being able to attack. I killed 12 monks per turn and never had to take a break test. I killed his censor bearers with my spearmen, my Phoenix guard shook off the cannonbals like they were mothballs and destroyed the gutter runners.

I ended up with 1200pts left on the table and he had 600 pts.
After not winning 7 times in a row, I finally won again!

Long live the High Elves, LONG LIVE ULTHUAN!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:09 am 
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congrats on the win. Sounds like a hard won battle. :) Large slave units can always pose a problem for HE, since we don't like being stuck in combat for too long.

How did you think the list performed? Anything you would change or do differently?

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:19 am 
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The Loremaster blew himself up twice and was sniped by a cannon. That man needs a reliable ward save.
The Prince didn't need a ward save, with WS7 and always strike first and a 2+ save, nobody wanted to attack him.
The archer units to protect the warmachines held up the gutter runners but didn't kill them. Perhaps a small unit of silver helms would have been better protection.

The Dragon princes found themselves alone in the enemy field. The great amount of princes helped here. Again it might have been better to have a silver helm unit to help them out. But that would have been a different game since there would have been fewer princes. All in all a fun game!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:22 am 
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raccoonhat wrote:
He had
- 2 x 50 slaves
- 2 x 30 clanrats with weapon teams
- 2 x 10 gutter runners
- Plague censor bearers
- Plague monks
- lvl 2 Ruin, lvl 1 Ruin, lvl 2 Plague
- 2 x 3 jezzails
- 2 x Warp Lightning Cannon

So quite shooty but he really misses Dreaded 13th and has nothing to deal with the World Dragon Bus.

raccoonhat wrote:
He actually had less drops than me and I got to put my Dragon princes away from the jezzails.

No need because World Dragon makes them almost immune to all the shooting here except from the Gutter Runners and you have a 2+ Armour Save against those. Jezzails are Warpstone Weapons which are Magical.

raccoonhat wrote:
his gutter runners were not carrying poison so couldn't hurt a fly with their throwing stars.

He also wants Slings for Multiple Shot. Even without these though 2 x 10 are dangerous to HE shooters as was shown.

raccoonhat wrote:
He also sniped my Loremaster with his other WLC

Failed Look out Sir roll?

raccoonhat wrote:
The archer units to protect the warmachines held up the gutter runners but didn't kill them. Perhaps a small unit of silver helms would have been better protection.

The best bet can be to space the war machines out and accept that you may lose one or two. They are cheap.

raccoonhat wrote:
I ended up with 1200pts left on the table and he had 600 pts.
After not winning 7 times in a row, I finally won again!

Job done! It would be interesting to see a rematch with level 4's or no World Dragon.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:54 am 
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Nice!

Surprised your Archers couldn't handle Gutter Runners - you should be killing almost half the unit a turn. Its things like this that push me to taking 18 - the GRs wouldn't stand a chance.

Congrats on the win and I'm hoping to hear more from you :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:57 pm 
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I'm really bad at Looking Out Sir rolls.
There is something about my leaders...

Thanks for all the feedback folks!


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