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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:41 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
power creep: it's a sort of natural progression that is very hard to counter. Any armybook you release, you want to be of average power (or slightly above it perhaps). After all, you don't want to create an overpowered army, but at the same time everything in the book should be usable. This is not just the aim when trying to sell more models, but also a games designer wanting to make a usable game / army. Of course, a games designer is probably not going to make a whole book worse then it was, unless it was really silly overpowered (since doing so would create a whole lot of unhappy customers). The thing here is though that this creates a moving target. Above average army books stay the same power level. But below average army books move up in power. As a result the average moves up with half the army book releases (since half will be below average). Creating more and more powerful books as things move along. All with the simple aim of creating a balanced game.

It's interesting to consider where this stands after the release of all the army books we are going to get. So pretty much all armies except Skaven & Beastmen (the last two 7th edition books, both with an eye on 8th) and Bretonnians (surprisingly viable despite the book's great age). In general I would say all the books are closer in power level than in 6th or (especially) 7th editions. Beastmen are considered the weakest, then Tomb Kings. Beyond that though, there's not so much in it. Elves are powerful, Daemons, one or two others. Match-ups can be very important. Factor in End Times changes and the balances shift again of course.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Somehow the consensus in the community about what was an average game size moved up from 2000 to 2500 when going from 7th to 8th. Nothing in GW rule books indicated that this was needed or even intended. It sort of just happened. I think the main reason was going from number of units in a slot to the % based system. In 7th you could run a fully kitted out star dragon prince (or equivalent) at 2000pts. And there wasn't any difference in that regard between 2000 and 2500 points. With the % system, this changed around. 2400 was the minimum for the more elite armies to run fully kitted out lords on monsters. And since few people can resist big, fire breathing lizards, the community adapted I think.

I agree with this Rod, though 2400 was perhaps played even more. 6th edition began at 2000 but many tournaments shifted to 2500 after the Hordes of Chaos release, so these things have moved before (3000pts being common in past editions of course).

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:01 am 
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The current army books indeed are not that far apart in terms of power level. Especially in less competitive environments most armies can work at some level, though there is a definite ranking in power level and the stronger books can get away with taking some less optimal choices. I think you're right in your assessment of the power levels. VC often are considered strong as well, as are Lizardmen. Ogres, Empire and O&G are probably middle of the pack.

It does depend on comp / house rules. Some armies are more vulnerable to them then others. HE for instance tend to suffer under comp because they have only a limited number of optimal builds and they are tied to stuff that is usually hit hard by comp. Deamons or DE I think are a lot harder to comp by comparison. A lot more viable strong choices and a lot less dependent on specific item combinations or models.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:02 am 
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The lower tier armies got a considerable boost in End Times. Tomb Kings are now ok, though still tricky to play. Beastmen however seem to rock under Legion of Chaos, even without mixing in unit choices from other Chaos ABs. Overall the external balance in 8th is pretty good, at least in casual play.

My changes to static res still haven't really made an impact. Steadfast didn't come into play even once in the Marienburg battle :?

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
HE for instance tend to suffer under comp because they have only a limited number of optimal builds and they are tied to stuff that is usually hit hard by comp.

World Dragon tends to get hammered Rod and I can only think of two strong builds that don't use it. Seredain's Bus + PG and Justin Burgy's PG Star shooting list.

Prince of Spires wrote:
DE I think are a lot harder to comp

Like nailing jelly to a wall.

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Overall the external balance in 8th is pretty good, at least in casual play.

Even in tournaments, except at the highest level.

RE.Lee wrote:
My changes to static res still haven't really made an impact. Steadfast didn't come into play even once in the Marienburg battle

Because the Greatswords were Stubborn RE?

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:31 pm 
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Greatswords were stubborn and the Halberdiers got their Steadfast broken by the (superb) Gors' relatively deep formation. Come to think of it the Chaos Warriors might have been Steadfast against the Sphinx at one point but, again, my house rules didn't affect that.

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:48 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Halberdiers got their Steadfast broken by the (superb) Gors' relatively deep formation.

This is a key issue for Infantry, isn't it? Do they go wide (often Horde) to maximise attacks or deep for Steadfast? In general guys who rely on doing damage (eg Swordmasters) want to go wide while more basic troops (eg HE Spears) are better deep. The opposition and for example the presence of characters in your unit can complicate this though.

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Halberdiers are a tricky unit - with S4 and hatred you can often dish out some serious damage in horde formation. But you also have T3 an no armour... Keeping them a deep anvil would have been a better idea with the base rules but here their Steadfast was likely to be broken anyway so their only hope was to out-do the Gors in combat. Which is exactly the kind of dynamic I was hoping for!

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:19 pm 
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You had some pretty tasty characters in there RE?

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:25 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
HE for instance tend to suffer under comp because they have only a limited number of optimal builds and they are tied to stuff that is usually hit hard by comp.

World Dragon tends to get hammered Rod and I can only think of two strong builds that don't use it. Seredain's Bus + PG and Justin Burgy's PG Star shooting list.

HE are easy to nerf. Comp World Dragon and frosthearts, and you've turned a contender into a bottom half army. They offer a lot in synergy to the rest of the army.

With T3 and no armour I would go for maximum damage output. You want as few return attacks as possible, since even in a best case scenario 25% of all attacks kill. That can really melt your unit fast. Still, it's nice that your houserules are moving towards a situation where there is a difficult choice between deep or wide.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:53 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Comp World Dragon and frosthearts, and you've turned a contender into a bottom half army.

There's a lot of truth here. My best tournament finish for a long time came with an otherwise junk list that was basically carried by those two elements. The lists I've cited above don't include either but they both sport 3+ Ward Phoenix Guard, which tend to escape the comp stick.

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:00 pm 
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I really need to try the Phoenix against something other than Dwarfs. My experience with the big birdie has been abysmal...

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 Post subject: Re: Static Res in 8th
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:29 am 
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Yeah, dwarves are probably not the best choice of opponent when trying out big monsters.

In my experience the flamespire is not really worth it. It's not really strong enough in combat to threaten serious block. And the wake of fire rule doesn't do much except against the worst horde units out there.

The frostheart is a great support monster. It makes other stuff a lot better. And the stats difference while small on paper make a huge difference. +1S and +1A are massive in terms of damage output. It makes it a lot more reliable. The 5+ armour save is just icing on the cake which really helps protect it against small arms shooting and weak units with large amounts of attacks.

Rod

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