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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:11 am 
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:?: So I have a bigger battle coming up in a few weeks and as usual, I play every battle with a new list (I only play a game every couple weeks, so no point in sticking to something). We play 2v2 4k points. I play with Lizardmen against either BM /VC and WoC / Dwarfs (not yet sure what they will field). I agreed with the Lizardmenplayer to leave all the magic to him, and as only one scroll per side is allowed, there is no point trying to fight for dice with whatever I could field. He made his list first and has loads of line infantry (2x20 Saurus, 20 Temple Guard), a couple stegadons, a couple skinks and ofc a Slann to dominate the magic phase. As we lack a ton of board control, I tried to make up for that weakness with my list. Tons of RBTs to win the chaff war, a bit of chaff of my own in order to get the combats we want, cavalry to zone enemy units as well as hard-hitting, mobile characters who basically provide the close combat damage including the ultimate mage-hunter, a TOTS noble on a giant eagle. Last but not least a big unit of armourpiercing PG, as nothing can deal with it except maybe Zombies. But see for yourselves:


Quote:
++ Standard (High Elves - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.0.) [2,000pts] ++

+ Lords +

Prince [276pts]: Heavy Armour, Shield
. Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed
. Magic Items: BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Giant Blade, BRB - Potion of Foolhardiness

+ Heroes +

Noble [178pts]: Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield
. Battle Standard Bearer: AB - Banner of the World Dragon
. Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed

Noble [190pts]: Dragon Armour
. Great Eagle
. . Great Eagle: Swiftsense
. Magic Items: AB - Star Lance, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard

+ Core +

Ellyrian Reavers [85pts]
. 5x Ellyrian Reaver: 5x Bow

Silver Helms [306pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
. 12x Silver Helm: 12x Shields

Silver Helms [115pts]: Musician, 5x Silver Helm

+ Special +

Phoenix Guard [450pts]: 25x Phoenix Guard
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Razor Standard

Shadow Warriors [70pts]: 5x Shadow Warrior

+ Rare +

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [70pts]

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [70pts]

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [70pts]

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower [70pts]

Great Eagle [50pts]: Great Eagle

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++


I'm grateful for every input, maybe even your experiences with some units (I am mainly curious on how the eagle guy will perform) and hope to bring some life into the glory that WHFB truly is.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:00 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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Location: Otherworld
Welcome Luthril!

:)

On the whole I like your reasoning and I like the list. Personally I believe a force can never have too many casting options but given the Slann is likely to bring seven or eight spells that should be fine. The RBT make a lot of sense as does the cavalry bus. World Dragon is obviously awesome for this. Some players would run the second Noble on a horse so you can hide the BSB in your second rank but you have the Prince for challenges and should be fine. Eagle guy can work well but some kind of save (Charmed Shield, Golden Crown?) could be an idea, usually these dudes run with a 4+ Ward.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:39 am 
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Yeah, I was thinking of something like this. Now, considering that there are at least two stegadons, RBTs and other stuff, I am not sure how much he'll actually draw cannon fire. But I thought of the charmed shield as well just to save him from such stuff. Still, I am not totally sure whether the reduction from a 2+ to a 3+ armour save is actually worth it, because that halfs his durability in combat (9 instead of 18 statistical effective wounds) and seeing that his most likely engagement is to charge head on in a zombie bus to take out the enemy necromant or something like this, I think the Enchanted Shield is actually better than the Charmed shield. Golden Crown actually doesn't fit whatsoever in terms of allowance, so I don't really consider it. I could give up TOTS, but that would significantly weaken his purpose. Just mathematically, the TOTS is actually super important:

Noble charges zombiebus and attacks enemy master necromant with T3 W3 4++. 3 attacks from the noble hit on a 3+ rerollable. That averages in something between 2 and 3 hits, let's go a bit conservatively and assume 2 wounds. He then wounds on a 2+, let's assume he wounds both. The eagle then strikes 2 attacks at 3+ rerollable and wounds on another 3+. In total, I can assume that I will deal around 3 wounds just like that. Without TOTS, this is rarely a kill. However, I significantly reduce the survivability with it, which also allows me to pass the break test more easily if the necromant should survive, as zombies provide quite some static (+4, so if I do 3 wounds including stomp plus charge, I tie and can kill the necromant in the next combat).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Green Istari

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It sounds like this guy has a very specific job to do and you’ve thought it through carefully Luthril.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:00 am 
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Auctor Aeternitatum
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
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Welcome Luthril.

The battle sounds pretty epic, with 4.000 pts per side. I'd love to see some pictures once it happens.

The list itself looks good. Nothing exceptional, but fun to play with.

Some thoughts:
I think the dragon armour on the BSB isn't worth it. There's very few things in the game that are flaming attacks without also being magical attacks. So the BotWD already give it a 2+ ward against flaming attacks. And the generic 6+ ward doesn't really do much.

I've run the eagle noble a couple of times and he works pretty nicely. It's a really fun model to play with. A few things to keep in mind:
- he's squishy. T3, 3 wounds and a 2+ armour save doesn't get you much survivability.
- He's not very killy. He packs a decent punch, but he'll rarely take out models or units on his own. His 3 + 2 attacks are too limited and low S to manage that.
- I don't think swiftsense is worth it. 2 S4 attacks don't do all that much. It might be worth it against low I armies (where you also get the reroll), but most targets worth attacking are higher I.

Because of these, you will rarely want to charge him in to a unit on his own. Only do that if you're sure you can take out what you're charging without getting many attacks in return or if you really need to hold something for a turn.

As for the scenario you painted, that only plays out that way if everything goes according to plan. More likely is that either another model will accept the challenge or your opponent will simply refuse the challenge. Which means you've got to get those 3 wounds to simply tie the combat, and in a following turn you'll keep killing zombies and lose each combat by 1 in the best possible scenario. If your opponent has a unit nearby to charge in to your flank you have to kill with all 3 of your S3 attacks and all the eagle attacks just to lose the combat by 1. More likely is that you lose by 4 and are looking at a LD5 break test.

I would give up TOTS for more survivability. I've had some success with Eagle, starlance, golden crown, enchanted shield, Heavy armour, Great weapon for a 2+ armour and a one time 2+ ward. The great weapon is there because you can use it in later turns for the +2S (though it might be a bit "gamey")

Regarding your core, I don't like the bows on the reavers (I think 5 S3 shots don't add anything) and I would prefer shields on the other SH unit.

I've never had much success with a unit of shadow warriors (which is a pity since I really like the models and their fluff). They put out a very low number of s3 shots and attacks, which doesn't add much. And they're too slow and expensive to be used as a simple redirector. Just bringing another eagle is better at that job and cheaper as well. Almost anything is a better choice than them in my experience, even more so because I'm guessing that with 4000 pts a side, there isn't all that much room to scout. I'd rather bring a tiranoc chariot which at least packs some punch in combat, or a unit of 10 White Lions (by dropping either 5 phoenix guard or one RBT).

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:02 am 
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Good suggestions I will surely consider, especially regarding the build of the noble. While he doesn‘t really want to challenge but just fly in and kill, depending on the enemy matchup it‘s probably quite risky and I can make it more point efficient.

The shooting on the other hand always comes in handy to kill those pesky dire wolves, chaos hounds, fell bats and whatever T3 chaff is running around on the field, so I think I‘ll keep the bows on the reavers. The shadow warriors I just really want to bring, because I like them and I haven‘t played them in a long time.


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