Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:17 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 123 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
Thanks guys!

raccoonhat wrote:
Why is the Phoenix Guard so bad in this edition?

They have two main disadvantages in that they occupy a Rare slot (competing with RBTs, Eagles and White Lions) and they cost 15 points per model, which makes them the most expensive infantry in the 6th edition HE book (tied with the Sea Guard of Lothern, but at least they are Core).

Eagles and RBTs are two of the best units in the book and you can only take 2 Rare units at 2000 to 2999 points games, so it becomes hard to justify picking Phoenix Guard over them.
Even if you somehow decide to take PG, you need to justify picking them over White Lions, the only source of S6 attacks in combat (besides Characters) who can also move freely through Forests (difficult terrain in 6th ed really slows you down so this is pretty good).

What do Phoenix Guard offer in 6th ed? They cause Fear, they have I6 which they can use since they wield halberds, and they have L9.
Fear is very strong in 6th edition mostly because if you win combat and outnumber the enemy they autobreak, but at 15 ppm it is not cost efficient to try and outnumber the enemy.

So what role can PG perform in an army? Their strengths besides Fear seem to be in grinding, because with I6 they attack before most units in the game, and with L9 and Fear it is difficult to break them.
This seems to suggest a niche role in breaking elite infantry, particularly Stubborn enemy infantry (elite infantry is expensive so you might outnumber them, with I6 you attack before they do and S4 is decent in 6ed).
However this is the only role they excel at compared to other units (SM grind better because of S5 I5, White Lions have S6 attacks so they are better can openers and shock troops, Spearelves are 4 points cheaper per model), and it is a very niche role because you aren't guaranteed the enemy is running Stubborn units, and even if he does infantry has difficulties picking their own combats.

And of course, PG are still T3 5+ AS models who die pretty easily unless they make a lot of wounds to reduce the return attacks (which is why SM are better grinders, with S5 and I5 they are more likely to make wounds, except against I5 or I6 troops which is essentially other Elves).

Considering all this, it is very difficult that 6ed PG would perform consistently, so in blind pick lists (where you don't know your enemy) they are not a good choice.
They are very good against Daemons and Undead because they are inmune to Fear and you can equip them with the Banner of Arcane Protection for MR2 and dealing extra wounds to them in the magic phase.
They are also decent against Elves because of I6 and Fear (you have a chance to outnumber here).

And that is about it, they mainly have a problem that their role is too niche and for a grinder infantry Spearelves are more cost effective, combined with competing for a Rare slot with RBTs and Eagles essentially dooms them to the shelves (at least White Lions can be made a Special unit with the Lion Guard honor).

The only thing that could make them unique is the combo Lion Guard Prince + Phoenix Guard, having a Stubborn unit which causes Fear is rather unique and makes a very solid infantry centre, but the cost of a 16 PG unit with full command is already 275 points, plus the Prince around 225p is around 500 points give or take. It can work perhaps, but you need to think how to properly support them (magic that protects from shooting is crucial here).

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
That was an interesting read. Thanks for the elaborate answer


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
No problem :D
I forgot to mention that their I6 is only valuable after the first combat round (charger attacks first), and they don't hold charges any better than other elven infantry (which could have been a niche for them, I mean they are 15 ppm, 0-1 and a Rare slot) except that they force a Fear test for the chargers, but that is quite minor. Could be good against low L armies like O&G and Skavens.

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Expensive and fragile, while fear only works when you outnumber your opponent. So you either take a lot and hope for the best or you're stuck with a pricey unit that works worse than SM/WL. Also - rare.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:05 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
It says a lot that even the addition of a freaking 4+ Ward save in 7th only rendered them decent as opposed to awesome.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:26 am
Posts: 124
Location: Western Europe
And what makes 6th more fun than eighth?
I went from 2nd to 8th so missed a few :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Warsaw, Poland
The graphic design and style of the Army Books was incredible. A real low-fantasy feel, great background and artwork. The rules I just couldn't stand :wink:

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
raccoonhat wrote:
And what makes 6th more fun than eighth?
I went from 2nd to 8th so missed a few :)


I only played 6th edition so I can't compare, I am gathering now some info about 8ed but I will probably end up playing 9th Age which is what most people play in the clubs around me (I have to go to Barcelona to play 6ed! XD)

The idea behind 6th edition was to decrease the power of characters and monsters and give it to regular troops, to that end they included a +1 to CR for outnumbering, they reduced the amount of magical objects characters could take to 100 points for Lords and 50 for Heroes (I think in 5ed Lords could take 3 objects without point limit), they reduced the number of Attacks of characters (usually 3-4) and Frenzy gives 1 extra attack instead of doubling your attacks.
They also made Hand Weapon and Shield give an extra +1 to AS (mostly core troops benefit from this), and they changed the magic system from the card based system of 5ed, although this was mostly to avoid players having to buy an extra set.
There are few game changing spells, although magic became more powerful with some army books (Slaanesh magic was disgusting).

The core of the game was based on charging, because charging would grant you first in the order of attack that round of combat regardless of Initiative values or penalties like Great Weapons. Since only models from the first rank are able to attack (except for Spears), attacking first is an advantage because the casualties you deal mean you receive less attacks.
Charging in the flank or rear is also extremely important because you deny the rank bonus of the enemy unit if your unit on the flank/rear has UP (unit power? I forgot the name in English) greater than 5.
UP was essentially the number of wounds of your unit, 1 per infantry model, 2 per cavalry models, chariots were 4, monster their initial number of wounds and so on.

Chaff became really important because you can use to chaff to either deny the enemy from flanking you, or allow you to flank him, besides the typical roles of war machine hunting, mage hunting etc.
Also you can deny marching (not sure if this is the case in 8ed, can units be denied marching?)
Finally you can use them to divert the enemy because the charger has to align with the charged unit and they can't do post-combat reforms (is this a thing i 8ed or did they introduce it for 9th Age?), so one unit of chaff can block a big enemy unit for 2 turns if positioned correctly.

This post is becoming a bit long but 6th edition was a kind of low fantasy game with few game breaking combos and a somehow balanced power level of armies, although after the Hordes of Chaos books the power creep started to take flight.
I think it was still pretty balanced, although you could of course cheese up and take Lizardmen with no ranked units (only skinks, cold ones and kroxis), Beastmen armies made of Chariots (they were core :lol: ) and so on.
There were also several alternative army list for each book, not all of them were fun but customization was decent, something that GW decided not to support in 7ed as I remember.

7th edition uses a very similar core ruleset to 6th, but the army books have a much higher power level.
The game is still based on charging, flanking and chaff though, but there are more powerful special rules and item combos.

Btw, 6ed had the best supplement ever edited for Warhammer, The General's Compendium! :D

Anyway I think everybody has their "favourite" edition, for all its flaws. I like 6ed even though the HE book was kind of B-tier compared to others (still better than Dark Elves :lol: ).

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:25 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
Also you can deny marching (not sure if this is the case in 8ed, can units be denied marching?)

March-blocking was very important in 6th and 7th, Eagles were great for this. In 8th units within 8" of the enemy can March but only if they pass a Leadership test to do so.

elendor_f wrote:
post-combat reforms (is this a thing i 8ed

Yes indeed, very important to how the game plays.

elendor_f wrote:
still better than Dark Elves

Considered so bad that an extensive list of errata was issued mid-edition.

I take it Storm of Chaos lists are not allowed at your tournament elendor?

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
Leadership test to march within 8'' seems sensible, and post-combat reforms also sounds pretty good to reduce the power of diverters without removing it completely.
These rules and step-up (no supporting attacks though) would improve 6ed I think.

SpellArcher wrote:
I take it Storm of Chaos lists are not allowed at your tournament elendor?

They are, everything released in 6ed is allowed, in fact units outside of the scope of 6ed are allowed since a guy (a Spanish blogger who co-organizes the tournament and loves 6ed) made 6ed rules for 8ed units like Phoenixes and the like.
I don't own any miniatures released later than the end of 6ed so I made a classic list, but I think some guys will try out some of the adapted units.
I know a Dark Elves player is building a list for Cult of Slaanesh (he has a really cool mini for the Anointed) but I am not sure if he will have it ready in time for the tournament, he might use something else.

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:22 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
Leadership test to march within 8'' seems sensible,

If you're close to General or (especially) BSB, this test is easily passed. But a low Ld unit stuck out on a flank will often fail it. In practice it's easy to forget!

elendor_f wrote:
post-combat reforms also sounds pretty good to reduce the power of diverters without removing it completely.

I think so. It does make fast, hard hitting units like Cavalry more dangerous though because they can charge, break or destroy a foe and then Reform to threaten a charge next turn.

elendor_f wrote:
step-up (no supporting attacks though

Interesting idea.

elendor_f wrote:
Cult of Slaanesh

I played this in 6th, it's lightning-fast but fragile. The Slayer list was considered a bit unbalanced and the Sea Elf list could put out a hell of a lot of fire. Watch out for the Sylvanian list too. Oh and Daemons of course, with their true 5+ Ward and magic standards.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
post-combat reforms also sounds pretty good to reduce the power of diverters without removing it completely.

I think so. It does make fast, hard hitting units like Cavalry more dangerous though because they can charge, break or destroy a foe and then Reform to threaten a charge next turn.

I think this might have been designed to compensate for Steadfast and the sheer amount of attacks that infantry can pump out in 8ed compared to 6ed, and also for the fact that charging doesn't grant you the first attack.

SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
step-up (no supporting attacks though

Interesting idea.

Thinking about it again, it may have a deeper impact in the game, since in 6ed the combat is balanced around "if I attack first I get to kill some models so I receive less attacks in return", and including a step-up rule bases the combat around the average number of wounds that units can deal, since all models of the first rank would attack anyway (assuming units with more than 1 rank).
However I think it created some frustration when a charging unit would roll a lot of wounds and only your champion could attack back.

SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
Cult of Slaanesh

I played this in 6th, it's lightning-fast but fragile. The Slayer list was considered a bit unbalanced and the Sea Elf list could put out a hell of a lot of fire. Watch out for the Sylvanian list too. Oh and Daemons of course, with their true 5+ Ward and magic standards.

I really need to read the Storm of Chaos supplement again, the only thing I remember is that I disliked the Sea Elf list because it was not very creative.

The armies inscribed so far are
- Dark Elves (possibly Cult of Slaanesh)
- Chaos Dwarves (HATS!)
- Ogre Kingdoms
- Lizardmen (I know this guy has a Carnosaur in the list)
- High Elves x2 (another guy and me)
- Skaven
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire Counts (not sure if Sylvanian or regular book)
- Beastmen (probably pure Beastmen)
- 2 more pending armies to announce

The tournament is for 12 people and there are 4 players who inscribed later and are kept in reserve in case somebody can't make it (only 12 because the shop does not have space to host a larger tournament :( )
The scenarios played will be 1, 2 and 5 from the rulebook (piched battle, breakthrough and the one that the goal is to claim the objective in the middle, forgot the name in English).

I now remember that I included the Banner of Arcane Protection instead of the Banner of Sorcery to have extra magic defense since I only run 4DD and one Scroll, but it also deals wounds to Undead and Daemons in base contact with the unit, good to remember!

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:15 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
I think this might have been designed to compensate for Steadfast and the sheer amount of attacks that infantry can pump out in 8ed compared to 6ed, and also for the fact that charging doesn't grant you the first attack.

Could be elendor. Early 8th was dominated by big Infantry blocks, partly because players hadn't worked out their tactics, partly because there were strong legacy units (like 3+ Ward Chosen) that started to die off with the release of more and more 8th edition army books. By late 2012 combat Infantry were an endangered species, mainly because the grinding power of units like Skullcrushers meant that almost any Infantry block charging them simply got minced. Cavalry units tended to get bigger, combining the resilience of a good saving throw with the killing power of characters.

elendor_f wrote:
The armies inscribed so far are
- Dark Elves (possibly Cult of Slaanesh)
- Chaos Dwarves (HATS!)
- Ogre Kingdoms
- Lizardmen (I know this guy has a Carnosaur in the list)
- High Elves x2 (another guy and me)
- Skaven
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire Counts (not sure if Sylvanian or regular book)
- Beastmen (probably pure Beastmen)
- 2 more pending armies to announce

Some good variety!

:)

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
The tournament is this Saturday and I am super excited! :D
I will try to make nice pictures and good battle reports!

On a different note, I am halfway through the thread of Seredain and I am having a lot of fun reading it, and it is also helping me to understand 8th edition :)

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:34 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
The tournament is this Saturday and I am super excited!
I will try to make nice pictures and good battle reports!

Good luck elendor, looking forward to hearing about it!

:)

elendor_f wrote:
On a different note, I am halfway through the thread of Seredain and I am having a lot of fun reading it, and it is also helping me to understand 8th edition

I once Googled 'Ulthuan' and this thread was the third thing that came up.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
I am just back from the tournament! I will make a post with pictures and reports when I return home.
It was a lot of fun and all my opponents were pretty nice and chill so first goal completely achieved :D

Personal goal for next time is to play faster because I couldnt finish the 6 turns in any of the 3 battles :shock:
I blame not playing 6 ed in a long time because it happened to a couple other players as well, but some people managed to deploy and play 6 turns in the 2h allocated per game (bit of an excuse here, they were my first 3 battles in 10 years :oops: ). For next time, I will focus on playing faster.

I had two draws and one decisive defeat (which turned to marginal because the skaven general blew himself up at the end of the game due to his magical object) so I ended 10 out of 12, but I did learn a lot in the battles because I made lots of mistakes :lol:
I had a particularly silly moment where I had positioned my eagle, helms and DPs so some big unit of ogre boar riders (forgot their name) had to charge the eagle and give either the flank to my helms or the flank to my DPs, then forgot they could redirect the charge and fled their charge with the eagle instead of holding, allowing the riders to redirect to my helms and negating my DPs to be able to charge them :roll: .
The boars ended up fleeing from panic later due to my RBTs and fleeing off the table, but that was pure luck.
There were also two or three more moments were I hesitated to charge with my DPs where I should have, but I guess I learnt a lesson there.

I tried Life Lore twice vs Skaven and Ogres and High Magic vs Beastment and Life was pretty decent, since my centre is not that strong delaying the enemy with Howling Wind is valuable,
However vs Skaven I should have chosen High Magic because Phoenix Flames is pretty damn good against them and I could have Drained Magic on one of the two Warlocks constantly.
Vs Ogres the 1d6 S5 from the revised lore Master of Wood and 2D6 S4 from Stone are rather good to overcome their T4.

Next post pictures and a bit more of each battle!
Goals for next tournament, focus on playing faster and planning better my deployment and movement phase!

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:15 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
It was a lot of fun and all my opponents were pretty nice and chill so first goal completely achieved

That's the main thing!

elendor_f wrote:
Personal goal for next time is to play faster because I couldnt finish the 6 turns in any of the 3 battles

A common problem, predictable due to your lack of practice elendor. Also 2hrs is not that long, 2 1/2 is typical here.

elendor_f wrote:
I had two draws and one decisive defeat (which turned to marginal because the skaven general blew himself up at the end of the game due to his magical object) so I ended 10 out of 12, but I did learn a lot in the battles because I made lots of mistakes

Again, this is what happens when getting back into tournaments, was the same for me. Next one should be slighly smoother!

elendor_f wrote:
There were also two or three more moments were I hesitated to charge with my DPs where I should have, but I guess I learnt a lesson there.

When in doubt, charge!

elendor_f wrote:
vs Skaven I should have chosen High Magic because Phoenix Flames is pretty damn good against them

It was ever thus.

elendor_f wrote:
1d6 S5 from the revised lore Master of Wood and 2D6 S4 from Stone

Thought it was more than this, or is that only with enemy in the terrain feature?

elendor_f wrote:
Next post pictures and a bit more of each battle!

Bring it on!

:)

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:46 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6517
Location: The city of Spires
Reads like you had a great time. Bring on the pictures :) Even though you finished low, you had fun and learned a lot. Which is important.

If you want some tips on playing faster, we have an article floating around about it: The Art of Speed Play

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
SpellArcher wrote:
A common problem, predictable due to your lack of practice elendor. Also 2hrs is not that long, 2 1/2 is typical here.

Again, this is what happens when getting back into tournaments, was the same for me. Next one should be slighly smoother!

It should be, I will focus on it indeed! I will also try to go into 9th Age soon which is more played in Belgium (where I live), so I will get more regular practice hopefully.

SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
1d6 S5 from the revised lore Master of Wood and 2D6 S4 from Stone

Thought it was more than this, or is that only with enemy in the terrain feature?

Yes if they are inside the terrain feature they get an extra 1D6 hits (so a unit in a forest gets 3D6 S4 :D ), but none of my opponents wanted to enter forests and there was a surprising lack of hills, I mostly casted Master of Stone from buildings.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Reads like you had a great time. Bring on the pictures :) Even though you finished low, you had fun and learned a lot. Which is important.
If you want some tips on playing faster, we have an article floating around about it: The Art of Speed Play

Rod

Thanks Rod :D I will check it out!

While I get to write a small report per battle, the guys from the shop made a video and posted it on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/kekolandiamini ... 667978435/

Around 0:56 you can see my white primed Dragon Princes and my painted SM and Spearelves in the distance :lol:
I am one of the guys without beards on the right at the end of the video :P

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:21 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6517
Location: The city of Spires
Looks like a great venue :)
elendor_f wrote:
I am one of the guys without beards on the right at the end of the video

I'm always surprised how many guys playing WH have beards... I always feel left out ;) :lol:

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:52 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
Belgium

That's a long way from Barcelona!

:shock:

elendor_f wrote:
there was a surprising lack of hills

Unfortunate.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm always surprised how many guys playing WH have beards

Two of my last three opponents were bearded.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
Edit: I will write the next post soon with the Turn 1 from both armies.

My opponent from the first game has been so awesome that he has written a battle report with diagrams!
It has been published in this blog: http://www.cargad.com/index.php/2017/04 ... -by-mathy/
Since it is in Spanish I will translate it and use the diagrams for my own battle report, and I will use the pictures I took.

Battle Report High Elves vs Skavens 6th edition
Scenario: Pitched Battle
Points: 2000 Points

Army lists
I included the prefixes used for the diagrams before each unit.

High Elves: Explorers of the White Tower
A1 Eldrael, Archmage, level 4, Jewel of Dusk, Seer, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Corin
G Lyara, Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, great weapon, dragon armour, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix
Lanz 20 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard
A2 10 Archers
YP1 5 Silver Helms, heavy armour, shield, barded steed
YP2 5 Silver Helms, heavy armour, shield, barded steed
PDrag 5 Dragon Princes, full command, Banner of Arcane Protection
GdE 5 Ellyrion Reavers
GEsp 11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Blessed Tome,
CdT 1 Tiranoc Chariot
LdR1 and LdR2 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
AG1 and AG2 2 Great Eagles

Skavens: Horde of Doom
G Mathy Sewer , Weeping Blade, Enchanted Shield, Warpstone Amulet
P Nesqueek, BSB, Storm Banner
I1 Pixie, Warlock Engineer, Storm Daemon
I2 Dixie, Warlock Engineer, Dispel Scroll
GAli 20 Stormvermin, full command and Doomflayer Weapon Team (rules adapted from 7th ed)
Clan 21 Clanrats, full command and Ratling Gun
Escla 21 Slaves
CdS 9 Night Runners
Excav 5 Gutter Runners as Tunnelling Team
RGig 14 Giant Rats
LdVE 4 Globadiers
HdR 2 Rat Swarm
Jezz 3 Jezzails
ROg 3 Rat Ogres
CdD 1 Warp-lightning Cannon
Abo 1 Hellpit Abomination (rules adapted from 7th ed)

Deployment
The battlefield had a small hill (bottom left), two forests, two buildings and a field (top left) which counted as difficult terrain.
I rolled for Intrigue at Court and I got to choose my general, so I chose the Noble.
I also chose my Life Lore spells with my Archmage due to Seer, I chose Father of Thorns, Howling Wind, Master of Wood and Master of Stone.
I won the roll to choose side and I chose the north side.

The deployment can be seen in the next diagram:
Image
I tried to place my heavy cavalry to avoid the Abomination but the Skaven had more drops and he managed to cover the flank of his Stormvermin with it.
He placed his Night Runners and Giant Rats to run towards my shooting base.
Both the Skaven Warlord and BSB deployed with the Stormvermin, the Warlocks one with the Clanrats and the other with the Slaves.

The Skaven players notes in the report that in retrospective he should have deployed the Slaves together with the Rat Swarms to help them cover the flank.
From the High Elves, I should have deployed the Ellyrion Reavers together with the Dragon Princes since they have an easier time getting around the Rat Hordes and distracting the Abomination, while the 5 Silver Helms could cover my shooting units from the Giant Rats and the Night Runners.

I won the roll to start the game and I decided to get the first turn (which will come next post :) ).

A picture of the deployment and first turn of the High Elves! (there was a small accident where one of my eagles and one of my helms fell to the floor and the eagle broke from its base #-o ).
Image

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Last edited by elendor_f on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:38 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6517
Location: The city of Spires
Should be a fun game. Going from deployment I would give a slight upper hand to the Skaven. Their deployment is a bit more grouped together. You might have some trouble coordinating between units.

[quote= elendor_f]there was a small accident where one of my eagles and one of my helms fell to the floor and the eagle broke from its base[/quote]
Very recognisable. My eagles have the same suicidal tendency. I think they're a bit depressed because they always get used to redirect stuff and die...

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
Prince of Spires wrote:
Should be a fun game. Going from deployment I would give a slight upper hand to the Skaven. Their deployment is a bit more grouped together. You might have some trouble coordinating between units.

You are right on the money Rod, I messed up the coordination of my units and it ended up costing me the game #-o

Turn 1 High Elves
Since I won the roll for first turn decided to go first because I thought I could use the mobility of my cavalry to try and get in the flank of the Skaven army. The main problem was that my opponent has deployed his best flank tarpits (Swarm and Abomination) in that place, so I was hoping to surround the Swarm and divert the Abomination with my Eagles.
I forgot that the Swarms are Skirmishers so they have a 360 degrees vision arc though :oops: .

The Elves' movement phase can be seen below, all my units advanced cautiously except the shooting units.
Image

Durin my magic phase my Archmage tried to cast Father of Thorns on the Ratling Gun (it isnt a magical projectile so it can target lone characters and Skaven support teams even if they are within 5'' of big units. The cast succeded but my opponent used a Dispel Scroll! I wasn't expecting that he would go that far to protect the Ratling Gun, although it can wreak havoc in the T3 lowly AS Elves.
Fair enough, I tried Master of Stone (2D4 S4) on the Stormvermin but the Skavens succeeded in their dispel attempt.
Next I casted Howling Wind (the units within 12'' of the caster can't be targeted by projectiles of S4 or lower and enemy units see their Movement reduced by half), and finally I used my Ring of Corin to cast Vaul's Unmaking against the Stormvermin because I wanted to know what nasty surprises were hidden there and get rid of one (I was fearing a Storm Banner already), but my opponent had saved one dispel dice just in case and succeeded in dispelling it.

In the shooting phase my Archers where 1'' too far to shoot anything :( However my RBTs killed one Rat Ogre and inflicted 2 wounds on another, and the Chariot riders failed to hit anything.

Turn 1 Skavens
The Skaven first turn can be seen below:
Image

The Skaven player started by declaring a charge with his Swarm against my Eagle by the side of the Tower, to which I declared Flee as a reaction.
This was a mistake, because if the charge was successful the Swarm would move quite far and leave my cavalry space to maneuver, while if it failed I could move my Eagle next turn instead of rolling to Rally it.
However I declared Flee to have a shoot at blasting the Swarms with Magic, which is a rather unreliable way of getting them out of the way and they don't have to Panic or cause Panic to nearby units, so not the best choice.
Moreover, my Eagle rolled enough to flee into the forest, so it would be slowed down after rallying.

The rest of the army advanced to meet the Asur.
The Abomination rolled quite low and lagged behind the Stormvermin.

The Skaven magic phase started with Warp Lighting against my Swordmaster being dispelled by my Archmage, and I used my scroll to dispel another Warp Lightning directed towards the Silver Helms in the centre (I think he rolled quite high and it was the amplified version, 2D6 S5 hurt).
However the Warlock had a Storm Daemon and I only left one Dispel Dice so I failed the roll and 4 Helms died (I failed 4 armor saves at 4+ :cry: ). Ouch!

In the shooting phase the Jezzails failed all their rolls and the Cannon misfired trying to shoot my Chariot but...the misfire roll indicated that the Cannon whould shoot at maximum range with S10 :shock: in a random direction!
Unfortunately for the Elves, the Cannon's ray shot across the Spears and killed 4 of them :(

Next post the turn 2!
Also, while I chose Life Lore to try it out and I put high hopes in Howling Wind to protect me from shooting and give me a movement advantage, I think High Magic would be a better choice here to cast Drain Magic on one Warlock and shut him down, and also because Flames of the Phoenix is way more threatening than a combined Stone/Wood + Thorns, and it forces the enemy to use power dice to dispel it.
I would lose the Thorns ability to target support teams and lone characters but I think it would have been worth.
Overall Life Lore was still a decent choice I believe.

My main mistake this turn was to flee with my Eagle! What was I thinking :roll:

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:32 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
Since it is in Spanish I will translate it

So you speak French, Flemish, English and Spanish elendor?

:shock:

I will comment on your report but it's very thorough so I need to find enough time to sit down with it!

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
Since it is in Spanish I will translate it

So you speak French, Flemish, English and Spanish elendor?

:shock:

I will comment on your report but it's very thorough so I need to find enough time to sit down with it!


I am Spanish so it is my native language :lol: I can speak English to a decent level (I make the random mistake here and there and I mix American and British vocabulary a lot) and I understand French just fine (we study it in school in Spain), but I am absolute garbage at speaking French :oops: .
My Dutch/Flemish is pretty limited, I followed a 6 month course and after living in Flanders I can understand the basics but I am also really bad at speaking because everyone speaks English really well so you don't need to speak it and you get lazy to improve #-o
So just Spanish and English I would say :D

No worries about reading it, I was planning to write some short report but since my opponent took the effort to write a detailed report with diagrams I thought I'd share it ^^ I will post Turns 2 and 3 soon!

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:19 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11765
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
(we study it in school in Spain), but I am absolute garbage at speaking French .

We are the same.

I like the variety in the Skaven list, it's always nice to see Rat Ogres (though not the End Times ones with machine guns)! On the face of it your deployment looks pretty sensible, with that open flank for your cavalry. Infantry centre, shooters back on the other flank. I am obviously not understanding the 6th edition details here.

That distinction between Magic Missiles which couldn't target lone characters and for example the Heavens spells which could, was important, I remember that much. Ratling guns were deadly then, kudos to your opponent for only bringing one.

I love the Japanese building!

:)

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
The report continues!

Turn 2 High Elves

Diagram of the turn:
Image

At the start of the turn, the Skaven player declared that his BSB activated the Storm Banner that I could not remove due him dispelling Vaul's Unmaking.
The Storm Banner prevents Flying in the whole battlefield and applied a modifier of -2 to shooting based on BS. Shooting not based on BS has to roll 4+ to be able to shoot at all.

Going to charge declaration, I did not declare any charges. The only realistic charge I could have made was the Helms and/or the Dragon Princes against the Rat Swarms, but I thought I could blast them with magic, then use the Helms to distract the Abomination together with one Eagle and get my Dragon Princes in the rear of the Skaven army.
Not charging was a huge mistake because I could have charged alone with the Helms and kill the Swarm but freeing the way for my DPs.
Instead I maneuvered both units as seen in the diagram, thinking I would be out of the vision arc of the Swarm, forgetting the important fact that Swarms are skirmishers with 360 LOS #-o .

The rest of the movement phase was my fleeing Eagle failing to rally, and I moved the remaining Silver Helm from the second unit to redirect the Stormvermin with Warlord and BSB away, reforming my Spears to 4x4 to get +3 bonus for full ranks, and moving my Swordmasters so they could go around the building and kill the wounded Rat Ogres. My Archmage left the SM unit and stayed close to the Spears.
In my right flank I moved the Ellyrion Reavers to threaten the Night Runners (another charge that I could have declared this turn but didn't).
My plan for next turn was charging the Clanrats with Spears and Chariot.

In the magic phase the Archmage casted Master of Wood succesfully against the Swarm causing 4 wounds, he followed with Father of Thorns (2D6 S3 which I hoped would end them) but he suffered a Miscast and suffered one wound. My next spell and the Vaul from the ring were both dispelled.
That is why I should not have relied on magic to deal with the Swarms, it would have been better to charge them with the Helms and use the Magic to try to decimate the Skaven infantry, hopefully causing some Panic tests.

My shooting was quite difficult because of the Storm Banner but I managed to deal the last wound on one Rat Ogre, so only one and her masters were up.

Turn 2 Skavens

Diagram of the turn:
Image

The Skaven player rolled a 2 so the effect of his Storm Banner ended ( =D> ), and his Tunnel Team failed to emerge to the surface.

He declared a charge with the Swarm against the Silver Helms, hoping that they wouldn't inflict the 6 remaining wounds and be able to Overrun. A good call because it was quite unlikely that I would deal 6 wounds on one round.
The Doomflayer charged one Eagle, and the Stormvermin charged the poor lonely Silver Helm who task was to redirect them. In order to cover their flank, the Clanrats advanced.
Finally the Giant Rats declared a charge against my Reavers and was successful by one quarter of an inch :evil: .

In the compulsory moves phase the Abomination pivoted to face my cavalry and rolled like 13 inches with was enough to charge my Helms, something I completely didn't account for #-o .
The Helms passed their Terror check and prepared to fight a very difficult combat.
Notice that if I hadn't positioned my DPs behind the Helms I could have charged next turn the Poison Globes skaven guys.

Finally one of the Warlocks abandoned the Clanrats and moved behind the Japanese building.

In the magic phase I dispelled one Ray directed to my Archers but I couldn't dispel the one directed towards my SM (bad from my part not let pass the one towards the Archers) and killed 7 of them, but at least they passed their panic test because of the Blessed Tome.

The shooting was almost non existent as the Jezzails whiffed all their impact rolls.

In combat the skaven player got quite bad luck because his Giant Rats didn't kill a single Reaver and the Ellyrion riders killed 3 of them, getting a draw.
In the other flank, the swarms and the Abomination together managed to kill a single Helm in a spectacular display of bad rolls. This meant that the Helms actually won the combat! :shock: The Swarms were Unbreakable and the Abomination Stubborn, it passed its Break test so there was no run away.
Finally, the Doomflayer and the Stormvermin easily killed the Eagle and the heroic lonely Helm.

From my part, I made two key mistakes in hesitating to declare charges and relying on magic to deal with the Swarm which meant that my magic was not trying to wreak havoc in the Skaven forces so I could deal with them in combat.
Bad target selection and bad movement phase planning with my heavy cavalry :oops:

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
(we study it in school in Spain), but I am absolute garbage at speaking French .

We are the same.

I like the variety in the Skaven list, it's always nice to see Rat Ogres (though not the End Times ones with machine guns)! On the face of it your deployment looks pretty sensible, with that open flank for your cavalry. Infantry centre, shooters back on the other flank. I am obviously not understanding the 6th edition details here.

That distinction between Magic Missiles which couldn't target lone characters and for example the Heavens spells which could, was important, I remember that much. Ratling guns were deadly then, kudos to your opponent for only bringing one.

I love the Japanese building!

:)


I think my deployment was decent except for the Helms and Ellyrion swap that I should have made (I commited the Reavers too early), and unfortunately I could not avoid having the Abomination close to my Dragon Princes.
Also my Archers should have been behind the hard terrain because it did not obstruct vision but I was afraid they wouldn't be in range of anything there.

Yes I got too afraid of Ratling Guns and I thought Life Lore can both target lone characters/support team with Father of Thorns and prevent shooting of S4 or less with Howling Wind, but it turned out the Ratling Gun didn't do anything and there was only one (he did spend a Dispel Scroll to protect it though).
Overall the Skaven army wasn't a hard army, but none in the tournament was I think. He did manage to reach 3rd place :D .

Was the restriction to target lone characters removed in 7ed or 8ed? In 6ed you can't target them with projectiles within 5 inches of a bigger unit of the same size (infantry with characters on foot, cavalry for cavalry etc) unless they are the closer target. It is supposed to protect lone characters as long as they are behind infantry, but it made Ratling Guns a pain in the ass.

The Japanese building gave me an idea that the battle could happen in distant Nippon, where the Skavens were messing with the interests of the Elves.

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 86
Last turn because 3 turns is all we played in the 2 hours slot!

Turn 3 High Elves
Diagram of the turn:
Image

So after my disastrous move in turn 2 I had to try and get something going in the centre, so I declared a charge with my Spears and Chariot against the Clanrats.
My opponent chose to hold because if he declared Flee I could redirect my charge to the flank of the Stormvermin.
I needed to break the Clanrats in one round because the Stormvermin had chosen not to Overrun (obviously) and I could not redirect them anymore, so next turn my Chariot was still in their vision arc.
I rallied my surviving Eagle and I had to decide how to solve the Dragon Princes complicated position.
Since the combat has gone so bad for the Skaven, 4 Helms had survived, but that meant my DPs could not charge into the combat this turn.
I decided to slide them to charge next turn (they were inmune to Panic due to Pure of Heart if the Helms broke), hoping that the Abomination would not kill 4 Helms in a single turn. However I forgot that with just 2 Helms killed he would win Unit Strength and as the Abomination caused Fear the Helms would autobreak, allowing the Abomination to charge my DPs next turn.

In the magic phase I started with Father of Thorns against the lonely Warlock Engineer, which the Skaven player let through and caused 4 wounds on the Warlock, killing him. The next spells were not successful or dispelled.
I kept shooting the Rat Ogres and I killed 2 of the masters and left the single Rat Ogre with 1 wound.

In the combat phase the Reavers managed to win and break against the Giant Rats, pursuing and destroying them.
In the opposite flank the Abomination got 6 attacks, caused 4 wounds from which I saved none at 5+, meaning that the Helms have been destroyed completely, freeing the Abomination to charge the DPs next turn.
In the centre the Chariot rolled for impacts, got a 2, made one wound that was saved at 6+ (hand weapon and shield mad skae the Clanrats AS 4+). Dissappointing.
Charioteers and horses did nothing, but the Spearelves managed 3 casualties and won the combat, taking one wound in return.
The clanrats had to pass a Break test against 6 and rolled double 1 and held. In any case the could re-roll because of the BSB, but this result spelled doom for my poor Spears.

Skavens Turn 3
Diagram of the turn:
Image
The third turn of the rats started with the Skaven player failing his Tunnel Team roll again :lol: .
The Night Runners charged one RBT, and the Stormvermin charged the flank of my Chariot.
In compulsory moves the Abomination rolled enough to charge the Dragon Princes, and the rest of the movements was the Doomflayer moving to threaten the Swordmasters, the Slaves advancing together with the surviving Warlock Engineer and the last Rat Ogre holding position.

In the magic phase the Warlock tried to blast the Swordmasters but his spell was dispelled by the Archmage.
Shooting saw the Cannon blasting with mighty S2 the Reavers, causing 0 casualties (the Reavers were definitely the MVPs for the Elves XD) and the Jezzails failing again all their impact rolls.

In combat the Night Runners killed one member of the RBT crew, who didn't Break.
Really bad news for the Elves came in the form of the Abomination charge wiping every single Dragon Prince (I could not make an Armor Save to save my life, literally), and the Noble managed to wound the Abomination but it regenerated the Wounds. The Noble had to autobreak due to losing Unit Strength against a Fear causing unit, and fled but not off the table.
In the centre the Warlord destroyed the Chariot, the rats didn't kill any elf and the Spears killed 1 Stormvermin and 0 Clanrats, so they rolled for Break, failed and had to flee, being pursued and destroyed by the Clanrats.

We had run out of time so the battle had to end here, with a decisive victory to the Skavens. The last funny moment happened when my opponent had to roll because of the Warpstone Amulet of his general, 2+ to survive, and rolled a 1, meaning that he was dead on the ground. Typical Skaven :lol: .

Summary:
The battle was a lot of fun and props to my opponent because he was really enjoyable to play against, I hope I can get a grudge match next time!
I think he used my errors in the cavalry flank really well to get a deserved victory =D>
For my part, although it was my first battle in a very long time, I made really silly mistakes with misjudging charges and maneuvers, but I learned hard lessons so next time I will play better.

Thanks for reading!

P.S.
Another picture of the battle:
Image

_________________
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 123 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group