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 Post subject: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Hello fellow High Elf commanders!

First of all, this post is about a 6th edition Warhammer Fantasy High Elves army, and I wasn't sure where to place this post since there is no subforum for stuff older than 7th edition.
Please let me know if I need to delete the post and relocate it somewhere more appropriate.

That said, I am a returning player to Warhammer, apparently in the worst time possible. I played mostly from 2002 to 2007, when I started university and my friends stopped playing Warhammer due to a dislike of the direction 7th edition was taking regarding Army Books (Always Strike First for all HE models? I thought that was absurdly OP) and also the trend of price increases set by GW.

However this Christmas I opened the boxes of my old High Elf army and I decided to finish painting them (I have only about half of the army painted) just for fun, but also perhaps I can find some players to play some games.
So I decided to look how has Warhammer Fantasy developed this last 10 years and well, I read about GW substituting WF for AoS, and I found several alternatives to 8th edition (The 9th Age, KoW and some other rules proposed by other players.
While the dust sets, I decided to make an army list for 6th edition, in case I find somebody who wants to play with the old rules, while I learn about the main changes from 9th Age or KoW (I honestly don't know what is better, so far The 9th Age documents seem very well written).

I wanted to ask for advice regarding the list, in case some of you still remember the 6th edition rules and Army Book.
So far, there was no Steadfast, removing Rank bonus when flanking was a matter of Unit Size and only the first rank fought, except for Spearmen.

I understand that this post may come across as odd (why am I bothering to post an army following very old rules) but I thought I'd do it so refresh my memory about Warhammer.
I tried hard to find the proper English names but my 6th edition book is in my native language which is not English, so for some magical objects I made a hopefully correct translation.

ARMY LIST 2000 points HIGH ELVES

Characters: (0-1 Lord and 0-4 Heroes, 4 characters maximum)

- Elven Prince: Lord option
Equipment: Dragon Armor, Elven Steed, Ithilmar Barding, Shield
Magical Equipment: Sword of Sea Gold 40 points (its attacks ignore armor saves), Vambraces of Defense 55 points (re-rolls failed armor saves, 4+ Ward save)
Honour: Pure of Heart 0 points (must include, character and its unit is Inmune to Panic, -100 VP if character dies)
Total cost: 257 points

- Mage: Hero option
Level 2 Wizard
Honours: Seer 30 points (can choose Spells instead of rolling them), Magic Channeler (can use 1 extra Energy die than his level allows)
Magical Equipment: Silver Wand (knows 1 extra spell than his Level allows)
Cost: 180 points

- Mage: Hero option
Level 2 Wizard
Magical equipment: Dispel Scroll 20 points, Ring of Fury (Fury of Khaine) 30 points
Cost: 180 points

Core Units (3+ for 2000 points)

- 20 Spearmen:
Full Command, spear, shield, light armor, Fight in 3 Ranks
Cost: 250 points

- 5 Silver Helms
lance, heavy armor, shield, elven steed, barding
Champion, Musician
Cost: 136 points

- 5 Silver Helms
lance, heavy armor, shield, elven steed, barding
Champion, Musician
Cost: 136 points

Special Units (0-4)

- 5 Dragon Princes
lance, dragon armor, shield, elven steed, Ithilmar barding
Full Command, Banner of Battle (+1 to combat score)
Cost: 195 points

- 5 Ellyrion Reavers
light lance, bows, light armor, elven steed
Cost: 120 points

- Tiranoc Chariot
Cost: 85 points

- 6 Shadow Warriors
Long Bow, Light Armor
Scouts, Skirmishers, Hatred to Dark Elves
Cost: 90 points

Rare Units (0-2)

- 12 White Lions
Great weapon, light armor, lion's fur
Full Command, Banner of Saphery 50 points (+1D3 energy dice each turn)
Champion carries the Book of Glory 25 points (+1 Leadership to all HE models at 15 cm or less)
Cost: 266 points

- 2 Great Eagles
Cost: 100 points

Total cost: 1995 points

Cost analysis:

- Characters: 617
- Infantry: 516
- Cavalry: 672
- Scouts: 90
- Monsters: 100

I tried to design the list with a strong Shock unit (Dragon Princes with Elven Prince) supported by the Reavers, one Silver Helms unit, and one Eagle. This group will try to break the enemy line at some point (remember that in 6th edition units can deny Rank bonus with 5 cavalry models flanking, and Ranks count from 4 models, not 5).
Meanwhile the Spearmen, the Chariot and the White Lions will cover the centre, discouraging the enemy from breaking the center.
Once the cavalry has broken the enemy lines, they have to be close enough to engage the rest of the enemy army.
The second Silver Helms unit and the other Eagle function to protect the flank of my infantry, and the Shadow Warriors can support either flank (depending on whether we need to delay the enemy Marching, or hunting War Machines).

In terms of Magic, I have 7 to 9 energy dice per turn, and total of 5 spells, 3 of which I can choose thanks to Seer.
It isn't the same power as having an Archmage and a Mage, but good enough to cast heavy magic to destroy squishy support units, or to cast tactical spells such as Movement spells from Shadow/Beast lore or Buffs from Light Lore.
Against gunline/shooty armies, I will choose Metal lore or Life lore to mess war machines and ranged units (6th edition Lores have some spells for this).
High Magic is also pretty good against strong enemy Magic due to Drain Magic, and armies with large infantry blocks (Phoenix Flames).

I think the list may have problems due to lack of shooting (I don't have Archers or RBT), so I rely on Magic to deal with enemy support units.
Monsters may be a problem since only the White Lions can deal with them, since I equipped my Elven Prince with Sword of Sea Gold to help the Dragon Princes deal with heavy armor units, but it doesn't increase the Strength of the Prince.
Another possible weakness is the Spearmen to act as anvil, since I don't have a BSB or a Hero with the Lion Guard honour (makes the unit Stubborn).
I could remove the Chariot in exchange for an Elven Noble with Lion Guard to join the Spearmen, making my infantry stronger, but relying more on the Silver Helms and the Eagle to support my infantry.

If you read this far, thank you very much! I hope somebody who likes and remembers 6th edition can give me some tips about this list.

Thanks!

_________________
' "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
"Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins. '
Terry Pratchett, Jingo!


Last edited by elendor_f on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:04 am 
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Hi, welcome to the forum! Your post is fine here. The forum is mainly called 8th edition to distinguish it from 9th ed. and since that's the most common official version people still play.

Unfortunately I can't really help you with your list since I haven't played in 6th ed. I know there are a few people around who have. I'm sure they'll drop in and offer some advice. From a distance the list looks solid enough. I guess it depends a bit on how competitive you want your list to be. The lack of high S on the prince is the main concern I think. It makes dealing with monsters and other high T enemies harder. Also I guess that the lack of shooting could become an issue at some point. So perhaps archers are a better choice then spearmen for core.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Yes, welcome elendor!

:)

elendor_f wrote:
Always Strike First for all HE models? I thought that was absurdly OP

It was, until the army book arms race gave subsequent books even worse stuff.

The characters look pretty sensible. Not sure if the magic sword is the best or not because of those high Toughness enemies. The magic is fine, High Elf medium magic phase was always respectable, for the reasons you give. I would include a Battle Standard Bearer, the re-rolls are worth it. I'd be tempted to make the Prince's bodyguard bigger because it could quickly lose Look out Sir and a Rank or two could be useful.

elendor_f wrote:
I think the list may have problems due to lack of shooting (I don't have Archers or RBT), so I rely on Magic to deal with enemy support units.

This will hurt I think, shooting is always important to elves. But you have a few bows and High Magic is a good Lore here.

Overall the list looks slightly 'bitty' but it has some strong points.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:15 am 
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Ah, the horror that was the 6th edition HE book :wink:

Couple of things:
- magic in general should either be all-in or just a caddy. Against an opponent with a strong magic phase you've just wasted 400 points, against an opponent with a caddy you've pretty much wasted 200.
- spearmen don't synergize well with what is mostly a cavalry force - I'd swap them for archers. I understand this is mostly a mage bunker anyway? There's no way they can act as an anvil.
- 12 WL will likely die before they get to strike - whats the plan here, going for stubborn?
- I'd get some RBTs with the points left - weakening the point your cavalry charges against and removing any road-blocks is crucial. This is a much more reliable way to do it than magic. Also gives you an option against monsters.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Thanks for the replies!

Quote:
magic in general should either be all-in or just a caddy. Against an opponent with a strong magic phase you've just wasted 400 points, against an opponent with a caddy you've pretty much wasted 200.

Would you suggest to have an Archmage+Mage if going strong for magic then?
I was thinking with the 2 Mages level 2 at 2000 points with Banner of Saphery and Ring of Fury I'd have enough energy dice to not be completely useless, only armies who can field stronger Magic are Lizardmen and Vampires I think (perhaps Empire with a Great Sorcerer but that is unlikely)
If you would go for the Archmage, I guess you would get Book of Hoeth? It seems the best item for an Archmage, unless I get Seer honour and some other Arcane object and perhaps a Ring of Corin.

Quote:
spearmen don't synergize well with what is mostly a cavalry force - I'd swap them for archers. I understand this is mostly a mage bunker anyway? There's no way they can act as an anvil

Quote:
I would include a Battle Standard Bearer, the re-rolls are worth it

My plan was for the Lions and Spearmen to hold the centre, and arrive to fight after I have broken their flank with the Dragon Princes + Prince (1 Helms, one Eagle and one Reavers supporting them.)
I agree that the Spearmen alone won't hold, so I have 2 ideas:
1. Make them stubborn including a Noble with Lion Guard.
2. Include a BSB to re-roll Break tests (ad with the Book of Valor from the Lions I get +1 Leadership if they are within 15 cm).
I'd have to give up the Shadow Warriors or the Chariot to include a Noble.

Quote:
Not sure if the magic sword is the best or not because of those high Toughness enemies.

I have thought about it and I could get a Great Weapon, keep the Vambraces and get a Radiant Gem of Hoeth (makes the Prince a Level 1 Mage who can cast with armor).
This gives 1 extra energy and dispersion dice to the magic phase and he would have some first spell from a Lore.

Quote:
12 WL will likely die before they get to strike - whats the plan here, going for stubborn?

Well, if the enemy is focusing the Lions they aren't focusing the Dragon Princes or the Helms, so I'd take it.
The problem with Stubborn is that 6th Edition HE choose their General with a dice throw, and the WL are stubborn only if the General joins them, so it is unreliable.
My idea for the WL was to have a high S unit who can give some damage to the centre.
They would get one Eagle and the Chariot to help them avoid unwanted charges.

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' "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
"Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins. '
Terry Pratchett, Jingo!


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Its not a matter of whether the opposition has a stronger magic phase or not - its about using your advantage to the maximum. A caddy will hold you up for 2 turns currently, perhaps enough for the enemy to hunt down you wizards. If you have 10 PD, you'll start blasting them turn 2. If you meet a heavy magic force you'll have more defense. In you case I'd go for a caddy, and use your strong cavalry to break the opposition. Going anywhere in the middle is a handicap.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:50 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
Thanks for the replies!

You're welcome sir.

elendor_f wrote:
I have thought about it and I could get a Great Weapon, keep the Vambraces and get a Radiant Gem of Hoeth (makes the Prince a Level 1 Mage who can cast with armor).
This gives 1 extra energy and dispersion dice to the magic phase and he would have some first spell from a Lore.

This sounds pretty good!

elendor_f wrote:
Well, if the enemy is focusing the Lions they aren't focusing the Dragon Princes or the Helms, so I'd take it.
The problem with Stubborn is that 6th Edition HE choose their General with a dice throw, and the WL are stubborn only if the General joins them, so it is unreliable.
My idea for the WL was to have a high S unit who can give some damage to the centre.
They would get one Eagle and the Chariot to help them avoid unwanted charges.

I agree with RE, the Lions (and most elites) are just not that great in 6th. They do carry the Banner of Sorcery but there may be some way to move that somewhere else.

As far as magic goes I think it depends what your opponents are likely to bring. I didn't play HE's in 6th but I played against them and this kind of phase caused me real problems, the little advantages like Seer and Channeller add up. So RE and I disagree here. If a guy does turn up with a megaton of power dice you could struggle but then that game would not be much fun anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:55 am 
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It's great to see that even years after the book has come out discussion on the best tactics and lists is still possible. It probably comes down to play style, opponent and power level you're aiming for. It's two slightly different approaches.

RE.Lee is advocating a "shock and awe" form, where you go big or go with the absolute minimum you need to be effective. This leads to a bit more polarised lists and is often the approach taken for tournament lists. It's about applying as much pressure on a specific point as possible. The downside is of course that sometimes your unstoppable force runs into an immovable object. And that someone will have a specific counter to your strength.

SA argues for a bit more a balanced, combined arms types of list and for aiming for reducing units to the minimum viable size. It's leads to slightly different lists which suffer against lists that min-max and have a specific strength that counters the balanced list. But it should perform ok against other lists. It probably leads to smaller wins in general, which is why it's less common for tournament lists (where winning big is often needed to win a tournament). A note here is that minimum viable size doesn't automatically mean taking a MSU (multiple small units) type list or reducing everything to it's smallest size. It's more like in the magic example here you bring a magic phase that will be strong in many situations, overkill in some and not strong enough in some others. You will suffer in some games or have overspend in some games, but against more balanced lists you'll have a strong phase.

Which in the end means it comes down to personal preference. Some people prefer more optimised and specialised lists and others prefer more combined arms lists. Of course, since I haven't played in 6th ed. I have no idea which is best for the 6th ed. army book.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:23 am 
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It was shock cavalry all the way back in 6th, especially for HE. All-mounted was a bit extreme, but not uncommon as the book was so weak. Infantry was not really an option, only the Swordmasters made any sense at all, but they needed to get the charge. Magic was strong thanks to Seer and BoS but didn't synergize well with the rest of the list.

It all depends on what environment you're playing, but there was little wiggle space in those days from what I remember.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Hi!

Back when I was playing in 6th Ed the lists I mainly saw in the forums for tournaments (I didn't know English properly so I just read Spanish forums) where indeed centered around Dragon Princes, Silver Helms, Eagles, Reavers and Chariots, with RBTs or some people trying a Dragon mounted Elven Prince if points allowed (2500 points or more).
Elite infantry was underpowered since PG didn't have a Ward Save, Swordmasters only had 1 Attack, and White Lions had light armor and were only Stubborn if the General was with them, but the General was chosen at random (stupidest rule of the whole book tbh) so it was pretty unreliable.
Usually people included Spearelves or Archers as infantry and be done with it, at least on 1500-2000 points.

As @RE.Lee said, Magic was pretty good on 6th but the synergy wasn't very clear, although in my opinion the lores were pretty flexible, you could counter war machines, big units, perform extra movements and deal massive damage (Cassandora's Comet for instance).
I haven't read the 7th edition Magic Lores but from what I gathered Magic was pretty OP (or was it in 8th, with Dwellers and spells like that).
I am trying to slowly have an idea of what happened last 2 editions ^^U

Back to the list discussion, I usually like a balanced approach (strengths aren't as strong in exchange for weaknesses not being as punishable), but I understand why tournament players prefer more "extreme lists" where you focus on maximizing strengths to the point where you overwhelm your enemy with them before he can exploit your weaknesses (I used to play with a hardcore gunline Dwarf player and I hated his guts for a while XD)

For my list, I could remove the White Lions (266 points) and a Rare unit, get 2 RBTs with the points and scratch some points to get a BSB.
Banner of Sorcery can be allocated to the Dragon Princes.
This leaves the Spearmen alone so they can be replaced by 2 units of Archers (as suggested) or keeping them and support them with one SH unit (and the Chariot).

However I disagree with the Swordmasters being the only elite infantry which made sense in 6th.
White Lions are the only combat unit with base S4, modified to 6 due to GW, and they can move around forests freely due to Woodsmen rule. Besides they are slightly more durable against shooting (4+ vs 5+ from SM, not very relevant though).
One could also try and make them Stubborn including a character with Lion Guard honour (making them a Special unit also) to avoid the random General thingy.
Their disadvantages against SM were that WL used a Rare Unit slot, and in rounds of combat after the first one since they attacked last due to GW.
I picked WL because I wanted something that can kill monstruous units (only if they get to charge though) besides the Prince (originally not even the Prince since I chose a magic sword but assuming he gets a GW) while also being good flankers.
Also, I don't like to carry the Banner of Sorcery in the DP because it gives even more reason to the enemy to focus them, since it would weaken both my combat and magic phases.

So Tl;DR
The changes I would like to test are to keep the WL, and swap either Chariot or Shadow Warriors for a BSB to go with the Spearelves, to find out which unit (chariot or SW) works best.
Also I could test two Prince build options, one being Vambraces+Radiant Gem+GW, the other being Seafarer Bow+Armour of Protection (6+ armour save, 4+ ward save)+GW.
The second build makes the Prince less durable but allows me to have a RBT the first turns for 60 points, shooting with the BS of the Elven Prince.

I have also thought about @RE.Lee suggestion of running a caddy, I could remove one Mage, get the other to be Level 1 with 2 Scrolls and High Magic for Drain Magic, and remove Banner of Sorcery for Banner of Arcane Protection on DP (2 extra dispersion dice to spells affecting them, and it deals damage to Undead and Daemons in contact with them).
This gives me around 200 points, I could get 2 RBTs (and swap the WL for Swordmasters to free a Rare unit slot).

Whenever I have time I can post the caddy list and another magic heavy list running an Archmage+Mage and 2 Heroes (one for the DP, one for BSB) that I am thinking about now (I got too excited I think :lol: )

Sorry for the lenghty post and thanks for all the suggestions!
Now I would only need to find someone to play to test all this #-o

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' "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
"Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins. '
Terry Pratchett, Jingo!


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:27 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
A note here is that minimum viable size doesn't automatically mean taking a MSU (multiple small units) type list or reducing everything to it's smallest size.

Exactly Rod. I'm actually a fan of substantial cavalry units in 6th.

RE.Lee wrote:
It all depends on what environment you're playing, but there was little wiggle space in those days from what I remember.

Agreed RE.

elendor_f wrote:
Magic was pretty good on 6th but the synergy wasn't very clear,

High Magic worked pretty well with HE shooting. With Seer you could avoid the spells you didn't want and load up on stuff like Curse of Arrow Attraction, which could be deadly.

elendor_f wrote:
in rounds of combat after the first one since they attacked last due to GW.

This is a serious problem. They are T3 with a 6+ (I believe) AS and striking last they die in droves. There was no 'step up' rule in 6th so they rarely get to strike back against anything good and usually just get killed. Not being able to hit back is the issue and I don't know if there's a solution. Relying on getting the charge is dangerous.

elendor_f wrote:
Magic was pretty OP (or was it in 8th, with Dwellers and spells like that).

In a sense, everything is OP in 8th. All elements have more killing power, spells included. Troops dying in numbers is more part of the game than previously.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Hi again!

I gave a thought to all the comments and I exchanged the WL for RBTs, moved the Banner of Saphery to the Dragon Princes, got a BSB to join the Spearelves giving up the Shadow Warriors,
and included an extra Chariot with leftover points (removed some stuff like champion and musician on SH and bows in Reavers).
It looks more like a standard 6th cavalry list I think.

If I included a caddy instead of 2 Level 2 Mages, I would give up one Mage and would get 10 Archers + 5 Shadow Warriors.

ARMY LIST 2000 points HIGH ELVES

Characters: (0-1 Lord and 0-4 Heroes, 4 characters maximum)

- Elven Prince: Lord option
Equipment: Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Elven Steed, Ithilmar Barding,
Magical Equipment: Vambraces of Defense 55 points (re-rolls failed armor saves, 4+ Ward save), Radiant Gem of Hoeth 45 points (Level 1 Mage, can cast with armor)
Honor: Pure of Heart 0 points (must include, character and its unit is Inmune to Panic, -100 VP if character dies)
Total cost: 268 points

- Mage: Hero option
Level 2 Wizard
Honor: Seer 30 points (can choose Spells instead of rolling them)
Magical Equipment: Silver Wand (knows 1 extra spell than his Level allows)
Cost: 170 points

- Mage: Hero option
Level 2 Wizard
Magical equipment: Dispel Scroll 20 points, Ring of Fury (Fury of Khaine) 30 points
Cost: 180 points

- BSB: Hero option
Magical equipment: Armour of Protection (light armor, 4+ ward save)
Cost: 135 points

Core Units (3+ for 2000 points)

- 19 Spearmen:
Champion, Musician, spear, shield, light armor
Cost: 227 points
* Will include BSB

- 5 Silver Helms
lance, heavy armor, shield, elven steed, barding
Cost: 115 points

- 5 Silver Helms
lance, heavy armor, shield, elven steed, barding
Cost: 115 points

Special Units (0-4)

- 5 Dragon Princes
lance, dragon armor, shield, elven steed, Ithilmar barding
Full Command, Banner of Saphery (+1D3 energy dice each magic phase)
Cost: 225 points

- 5 Ellyrion Reavers
light lance, light armor, elven steed
Cost: 90 points

- 2 Tiranoc Chariots
Cost: 170 points

Rare Units (0-2)

- 2 RBT
Cost: 200 points

- 2 Great Eagles
Cost: 100 points

Total cost: 1995 points

I would like to play with some elite infantry as well, but I guess the most I can do is include 10 Swordmaster with Champion to threaten flanks and attract some shooting away from the DP (at 2250 points for example).

One way to support the White Lions if they get stuck in combat that I thought (they should not get charged under any circumstance, but same goes to Swordmasters or PG (no ward save in 6th)) is to choose the spell from the Lore of Light Urru's Bright Flash (or something like that) which reduces the enemy's WS to 1 for the next combat round (it's a 6+ difficulty spell so 2 dice should do it, 45 cm range no vision required).
It constraints you to take your Seer Mage with Light Lore to guarantee it though.

The other option is the unit movement spell from Shadow Lore to help them charge.

Since elite infantry seems very reliant on magic to protect and support them, probably they are best taken with an Archmage.

Thanks again!

_________________
' "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
"Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins. '
Terry Pratchett, Jingo!


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:17 am 
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Looks better. Try how that magic setup works for you and tweak as appropriate. Consider the Battle Banner for those Dragon Princes (on a BSB) to break through with more confidence - neither the DPs themselves nor your combat characters pack that much of a punch. The Tiranoc Chariots will help here - just watch out for cannons!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:59 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Looks better.

I agree.

RE.Lee wrote:
Consider the Battle Banner for those Dragon Princes (on a BSB) to break through with more confidence - neither the DPs themselves nor your combat characters pack that much of a punch.

A good idea I think. There were far fewer Stubborn units in 6th edition. Presumably the Banner needs to go on the BSB, hence he would need to be mounted. A unit of 8 DP's (or Helms?) say, with Prince and Battle Banner BSB might be a real hammer.

elendor_f wrote:
Since elite infantry seems very reliant on magic to protect and support them, probably they are best taken with an Archmage.

Maybe so, although the tailoring the Honours allow could let you try it without him.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:42 am 
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Quote:
A good idea I think. There were far fewer Stubborn units in 6th edition. Presumably the Banner needs to go on the BSB, hence he would need to be mounted. A unit of 8 DP's (or Helms?) say, with Prince and Battle Banner BSB might be a real hammer.


Yes, but it would be about half the cost of the entire army, and then every game would basically be a game of "is the enemy able to neutralize or shoot enough stuff on my 800-900 point unit to shut me down, or will he be run over by it?".

I don't think deathstars or point hog units are a very good idea in general, you lose a lot of flexibility because you are forced to make that unit work.
I don't know about latest editions, I read several posts about 8th edition making the game about 2 infantry deathstar units having a contest.

If I would include the BSB with Banner of Battle, I would include the Prince in a different Cavalry unit to make a double hammer. I guess it would be easier to do with 2250 points than 2000 points though.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:55 am 
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elendor_f wrote:
I don't think deathstars or point hog units are a very good idea in general, you lose a lot of flexibility because you are forced to make that unit work.
I don't know about latest editions, I read several posts about 8th edition making the game about 2 infantry deathstar units having a contest.

I think this is something the exists in all editions. You'll always have deathstars because they work in a certain kind of setup. It is fairly easy to play with (simply point at biggest threat and charge) and fairly hard to play against if you don't know what you're doing. It always turns the game into can the other side deal with the deathstar.

8th edition has a few elements that promote deathstars, like steadfast, characters being able to stay in the second rank of a unit, easy access to stuborn and reroll on all LD test from the BSB. At the same time, there are more elements that counter deathstars as well. Powerfull magic is one (dwellers can easily remove half a unit, including characters), better warmachines is another. Step up also helps, since you'll always get to strike as long as you have some models left. And I actually think that the % system also helps. It allows you to bring more redirectors without too much impact on your list. In 6th and 7th, you could only bring 2 rare units. Which means either bring RBT or eagles, never 2 of each. With %, you can easily bring 2 eagles for 100 pts and still have plenty of room for other good stuff. And 2 eagles means I can keep that deathstar busy for half a game with 100pts of units.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:47 am 
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RBTs and Eagles were 2 for 1 rare slot :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:59 am 
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From Crocodile Dundee, an 80's comedy about a Bush Australian in the US. The hero and his girlfriend get mugged:

GF: "He's got a knife!"
Dundee: "Nah, that's not a knife. This is a knife (pulls out something sword-sized)."

:)

This (a unit common in late 8th edition) is a Deathstar:

Cavalry Prince
BSB, Banner of World Dragon
Noble, Fighting Kit
Mage
Mage
15 Silver Helms

elendor_f wrote:
I don't know about latest editions, I read several posts about 8th edition making the game about 2 infantry deathstar units having a contest.

Early on this was the case because players hadn't honed their tactics. Mid-edition was more balanced. Later, because of books like HE's and the move to 50% Lords and 50% Heroes, we got more Deathstars.

elendor_f wrote:
Yes, but it would be about half the cost of the entire army, and then every game would basically be a game of "is the enemy able to neutralize or shoot enough stuff on my 800-900 point unit to shut me down, or will he be run over by it?".

I don't have the book to hand but I would estimate 700-750, which is just over 1/3 of the points. I played over 100 games of 6th, many against strong tournament players and such units were typical. As inferred, you still have an army here which is not the case with a true Deathstar.

elendor_f wrote:
If I would include the BSB with Banner of Battle, I would include the Prince in a different Cavalry unit to make a double hammer

You have some flexibility in characters moving between units. There's no compulsion to deploy them a certain way or not to move them around, depending.

Here's what I remember of the army of Rob Lane, one of the best HE players in the world:

Radiant Gem Prince
Combat BSB
Combat Noble
Mage

(All characters mounted)

12 Silver Helms
8 Silver Helms
8 Silver Helms

6 Reavers
6 Reavers
4 Chariots

2 Eagles

This army won multiple tournaments. It's worth noting that the unit of 12 Helms also appeared in his (similarly successful) infantry list!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:44 pm 
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Just shows how poor core infantry was in 6th ed. The grunts just had no place in most lists and were definitely advised to stay out of combat. Getting the charge was everything and when you have 18" movement the enemy better be bringing some redirectors.

Deathstar is an overused term. I bring 30 Tomb Guards with a King and it gets labeled a Deathstar. 12 Silver Helms with a Prince - Deathstar. 40 Stormvermin with Warlord and Assassin - Deathstar.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:17 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Deathstar is an overused term. I bring 30 Tomb Guards with a King and it gets labeled a Deathstar. 12 Silver Helms with a Prince - Deathstar. 40 Stormvermin with Warlord and Assassin - Deathstar

O come on. Everyone knows 40 Stormvermin with Warlord and Assassin is a deathstar. Stormvermin are heaps better the slaves. Higher S, WS, LD and so on. And everyone knows slaves are already way overpowered. So it's only logical that 40 stormvermin count as a Deathstar...

Or something like that :mrgreen: ;)

Other then that I agree. It's an overused term, which has moved from "a complete army in a single unit that's unstoppable because it's immune to nearly everything" to "that's a really strong unit I don't know how to deal with".

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:57 am 
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Hello there. I'm also a long time returnee like the OP, playing exclusively the 6th Edition from 2003-2007. During that blessed time, I had the joy of owning, loving and playing two of the most awesome fluff- and model-wise, but crappiest in terms of wargaming, armies, that is High Elves and Dogs of War. I loved the painting, but I loved the aspect of shoving little minis against each other even more, so in the end I became an obsessive and rather successful general. I think I reached the highest position ever for "6th Edition" High Elves at any Heats and Finals in the Warhammer Fantasy GT held at GW HQ Nottingham, that is 4th place (that deed was noted in the old Ulthuan.net forum). But tragedy did occur, right before the super powerful High Elves 7th book was released in November 2007, I had to travel abroad, got a job and then moved to a country utterly alien to tabletop wargaming (good at pirating PC games though). I gifted most of my models to my local Warhammer mates, packed the most cherished to the show case boxes and put my Warhammer lust to euthanasia.

But it refused to die and by a freak catalyst, i.e. my new doggie eating almost all my squads of 6th edition metal Dragon Princes while I was away, the old lust came back to life. At first, I just wanted to replace the poor dudes who had to scramble rather haughtily through my dog's rectum, but as GW is simply not the most hated miniature Company by chance, in less than half a year, I have amassed 4000 pts High Elves and 4000 pts Dogs of war armies (with almost full new Citadel paint ranges) :lol: The new High Elves models are simply brilliant (though none can beat the 6th Phoenix guards). Also, I'm utterly in love with the 8th edition, for a simple reason: Self-play.

During my stay in the UK ages ago, playing two games per week at the local GW stores and hobby group was simply not enough preparation for the great Warhammer tournaments, especially the most cut-throat and no-hold-barred in the Universe, the GW Grand Tournament. I lived in Cardiff, which had quite a number of players, but no way close to the wargaming level of folks in London and Midlands. That's why I had to develop a self-play technique that allowed me to play a huge number of games per week against all Fantasy armies in preparation for tournament (proxies and dissociative disorder reigned!) Fast towards today, again as the only Warhammer fantasy player in the country I reside, self-play is the only route to go. But as I have no tournament to look forwards to, fun is the only template. And Fun is what the 8th edition provides in spade, thanks to its random charge phase and hugely powerful and just as random magic phase (adding the guess range of the 6th edition and you are golden :D ).

In the future, I hope I can make Warhammer Fantasy videos featuring both the 6th and the 8th edition. They would be likely self-plays but then you guys will see they are enormously fun. And very useful if your systems are unsupported.

P.s. Someone mentioned Rob Lane. I remember he was probably the sourest fella in any tournament, always grumpling around my tables while I was dealing with his underlings, Joe Sturge and Tim Bananana :lol: Never played against him though.


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:59 pm 
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The part where your dog ate your Dragon Princes made me laugh and get sad at the same time, 6th ed Dragon Princes are awesome models!
I agree about 6th ed Phoenix Guard models, I like them a lot more than the latest PG from GW (those oversized winged helms look silly on infantry with halberds...).
I regret not buying any PG models in 6th, but the unit was useless (Rare slot 15 ppm for fear causing elves... :roll: ).

Congratulations about your tournament success! You impressed my young 14 to 18 year old self (which was my age when I played Warhammer 6th ed :lol: )!
I am also surprised to see no Skaven in the top 10, I thought that book was pretty decent #-o ).

Anyway I think it would be cool if you make videos playing against yourself! I am in a similar situation if I want to play 6th ed, so I am trying to get a grasp of The 9th Age, the project seems really cool.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Good to see you coming back to the hobby, these are fun times for casual gamers. I'm always happy to read some battle reports, even if its solo-play, so no worries there. I'm another fan of the 6th ed PGs (is anyone not?)!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:28 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
The part where your dog ate your Dragon Princes made me laugh and get sad at the same time, 6th ed Dragon Princes are awesome models!


You have no idea, Sir. I almost furiously strangled the little sod at once, but then I remembered he was only 4 month old, so some laxities had to be accorded :lol: . Those Dragon Princes were my best painted, the champions of my countless battles against the 6th edition filth and cost me so much pain to preserve and carry them around the globe. In the end, the doggie not only destroyed them, he also rekindled my costliest addiction ever and kaboom, my purse has thus been lightened by several grands... so far.

Quote:
I agree about 6th ed Phoenix Guard models, I like them a lot more than the latest PG from GW (those oversized winged helms look silly on infantry with halberds...).
I regret not buying any PG models in 6th, but the unit was useless (Rare slot 15 ppm for fear causing elves... :roll: ).

Yes, the 6th edition Phoenix guards were one of the best looking models and downright worst unit rule GW have ever made (on par with the 6th edition Malus Darkblade's, which was a joke and yet the only source of fun for the Dark Elves players during that time :lol: ). I think there wasn't a day passed in this very august forum did a member not put forwards a creative new rule for the Phoenix guards in hope somehow someday GW would look into it. People were downright desperate in those times, eh!

Quote:
Congratulations about your tournament success! You impressed my young 14 to 18 year old self (which was my age when I played Warhammer 6th ed :lol: )!
I am also surprised to see no Skaven in the top 10, I thought that book was pretty decent #-o ).

I think around 2007 was probably the peak of tournament scenes in the UK, especially concerning the official GW tournament. Right after that, folks had the ETC and with the diminish of official GW tourney, Warhammer Fantasy slowly died (at least in the mind of GW head honchos). Fact is, I still love the absolutely anarchic, brutal, no restriction (other than the point cost) that the Nottingham GT offered. It's so hilarious to hear people whining even if they carried the badder nuke option ("Oi, you cheesy twit, What kind of gentleman bringing Thorek, 2 cannons, 3 organ guns, 4 grudge throwers and 40 thunderers like that?" "But but milord, you yourself have Karl Franz, two tanks, 4 cannons and 40 knights, what could I possibly do to appease your wrath then?"
Also 2007 was the strongest year of Skaven and generally all gunline armies (Gelt-double stanks and the infamous Thorek). May be at the end of the year, people (like me) had been playing excessive amount of times against them so we just figured out how to deal with them. And the only chance High Elves ever had in UK tourneys were cav and loads of it. Of course, some subtle touches here and there depended on the experience and temperament of the players but all in all, High Elves was one of the worse book in the 6th (still better than Dark Elves though :wink: )

Quote:
Anyway I think it would be cool if you make videos playing against yourself! I am in a similar situation if I want to play 6th ed, so I am trying to get a grap of The 9th Age, the project seems really cool.

Cheers!

Sure, that's my intention to keep my old flame Warhammer Fantasy alive. I tried to play against myself one per week at least and it has been always a blast, to the wire till the 5th turn at least (8th edition though). Also, it's time to get my locals have a taste of what tabletop wargaming is.
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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Lohendrinus wrote:
Hello there. I'm also a long time returnee like the OP

Welcome back Lohendrinus!

Lohendrinus wrote:
Dogs of War.

I saw some great DoW armies at tournaments in 6th.

Lohendrinus wrote:
self-play is the only route to go.

Solo Wargaming has a long and honourable tradition going back to the 60's at least. There was an Association with a Journal. Dabbled a bit myself.

Lohendrinus wrote:
P.s. Someone mentioned Rob Lane. I remember he was probably the sourest fella in any tournament, always grumpling around my tables while I was dealing with his underlings, Joe Sturge and Tim Bananana Never played against him though.

The tournament scene in early 6th was pretty clannish as I recall, the clubs were front and centre, especially the Dragon Slayers.

elendor_f wrote:
I agree about 6th ed Phoenix Guard models, I like them a lot more than the latest PG from GW

+1

They're pretty effective in 8th. Here's a unit I ran into at a tournament last year:

Image

elendor_f wrote:
I am also surprised to see no Skaven in the top 10, I thought that book was pretty decent )

By then I think other armies had picked up equally horrific stuff. The glory days of unremitting SAD were fading.

Lohendrinus wrote:
I think around 2007 was probably the peak of tournament scenes in the UK, especially concerning the official GW tournament. Right after that, folks had the ETC and with the diminish of official GW tourney, Warhammer Fantasy slowly died (at least in the mind of GW head honchos).

Definitely GW's interest declined. But the independent scene remains vibrant to this day.

Lohendrinus wrote:
Fact is, I still love the absolutely anarchic, brutal, no restriction (other than the point cost) that the Nottingham GT offered. It's so hilarious to hear people whining even if they carried the badder nuke option ("Oi, you cheesy twit, What kind of gentleman bringing Thorek, 2 cannons, 3 organ guns, 4 grudge throwers and 40 thunderers like that?" "But but milord, you yourself have Karl Franz, two tanks, 4 cannons and 40 knights, what could I possibly do to appease your wrath then?"

It was famed for it's filth.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:11 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Welcome back Lohendrinus!

Thanks!

RE.Lee wrote:
Good to see you coming back to the hobby, these are fun times for casual gamers. I'm always happy to read some battle reports, even if its solo-play, so no worries there. I'm another fan of the 6th ed PGs (is anyone not?)!


Thanks Lee. Nice to see you still here after all this time, with the same unchanged avatar too. It must be a lifetime crush, eh :wink:

By the way, in case you are curious, I just solo-played a 3400 pts High Elves (8th edition) vs 3400 pts Dogs of War (the 8th Edition Fanbook) yesterday. The rules were simple, 8th edition overall with the guess range of the 6th and the anti-steadfast of the 9th.

The narrative was simple as well, Tyrion in the search of his Evergirl, called in his bro Teclis, his buddies Eltharion and Caladryan and landed a mighty warhost in Luccini (he was misinformed by Teclis that his child was hid by a vampire somewhere near southern Tilea). Tyrion with his utter trust in his bro, not knowing that Teclis had already sold his soul to the scheme of Lileath, arrogantly demanded the Prince of Luccini, Lorenzo Lupo to stop barring his way and allowed him to search wherever he wanted in the Tilean's princedom. Normally, Lupo would have yielded but he just successfully secured a huge diplomatic coup by marrying Borgio the Besieger's daughter and they could then divide Tilea for themselves only. With the might of the Besieger and his superbly drilled army present, Lorenzo felt the time had come to settle the most awkward question in the Warhammer universe, "who are the most cultured and tactically astute, the sterile Asurs or the vibrant Tileans?" Thus before the great rampart of Luccini, the infamous battle of, uhm, Luccini unfolded...

Tyrion's "Daddy is Best" Host (3352 pts)
Tyrion
Teclis
Eltharion-Stormwing
Caladryan
Noble BSB, Barded ES, Shield of Merwyrm, Sword of anti-heroes, Luckstone, Dragon Armor

5 Ellyrian reavers (Musician)
7 Silver Helms (Full Command)

11 Dragon Princes (FC, Banner of World Dragon, Drakemaster-Star lance, Enchanted Shield)
24 Phoenix guards (FC, Razor standard)
12 Swordmasters (FC, Warbanner)
3 Tiranoc Chariots
1 Bolt Thrower

I played with only painted models in my collection so the Core was way below minimum. But then there was no GW watching anyway!

The united Front of Tilea (3446 pts)
Lorenzo Lupo
Borgio the Besieger
Wizard Lord lv4 (Staff of Fickle Fortune, Talisman of Preservation, Potion of Toughness)
Leonardo da Miragliano
Paymaster (paychest, Armor of Destiny, Great weapon)

12 Marksmen of Miragliano (BS 4, no long range penalty)
35 Alcatani Fellowship
11 Voland's Venators
11 Freelancers (FC)
10 Duelists with pistol
12 Handgunner

35 Paymaster's Bodyguards (4+ AS, FC, banner of Discipline, Stubborn ld 9 as long as the Paymaster stays alive in the unit, Str 5 with Halberd)
10 Pitfighters with javelins and shields (WS4, BS4, 2 A)

2 cannon (48" range, D6 wounds)
2 Galloper Guns with Bronzino (24" range, D3 wounds)
3 Maneaters (Stubborn, Swiftstride, one with GW, 2 with braces of handguns)

Two armies were the grossest cheese fest I could pile against each other :lol: and still very fluffy. Magic channeling was 4 D6 instead of 2 D6 and the dispelling side got 2 middle dices. Teclis took all the nastiest spells in the 8 lore books while the Merc wizard got life and the troublesome Dweller Below. All in all, the battle was massive blood bath with some great highlights here:
-High Elves had 1st turn and rushed forward. Teclic, in the Phoenix guard unit, buffed his strength with Savage Beast in case of a Dweller thrown in his way. His Purple Sun cast but misfire, lucky no one died. The big Searing doom on Voland's boys was dispelled.
-Tilea Turn 1 saw the withering fire of magic and cannon. An IF Dweller on Phoenix Guards dropped 12 AND Caladryan, luckily Teclis had his foresight and saved his bacon. Between them, the 4 cannon destroyed 2 chariot and the bolt thrower (my inch guess range was still up to the job!) The Markmen was with Leonardo, which allowed them to reroll any 1 to hit, absolutely devastated the Swordmasters and sent them packing till they hit the board. One unit of Lancers hit a chariot and overran to a wood, got 3 dead for their trouble, panicked and packed up as well. Borgio and Voland's Venators charged the Dragon Princes under Tyrion's and BSB's command got totally mauled by the 2 big Elves even before they could strike (Sword of Anti-Heroes works best against, guess what, Regiments of Renown armies :wink: ). After killed only one Dragon Princeling in return, the elite Tilean knights lost by a lot yet stood their ground though.

-The next turn witnessed Teclic's magic at his full power. His Big Savage Beast helped Tyrion's unit to finish off Borgio's lads while Purple sun dropped a third of the Bodyguards. Eltharion charged the Maneaters, a little weakened by bow fire and destroyed them all. He held but still expose himself to 1 cannon and 1 galloper gun. Reavers ready to pound on one cannon soon.
-Tileans' turn 2 saw their Wizard Lord's Dweller finally got destroyed by Teclis' Scroll of Hoeth. But cannons, bolts and shots were still grievous. Storming had 2 wounds left, 6 Phoenix guards, 2 princelings and 4 silver helms bit the dust.

-Then Tyrion and his drinking buddies charged the Body guards and with the aid of Savage beast, killed the Paymaster and slaughtering a heap. The grizzled veterans then swung their massive halberd and crashed down 5 Dragon Princes (they got Hatred now). Somehow the Bodyguards managed to fill 5 in the second rank so they barely held on Steadfast. Eltharion flew to a galloping unit with Bronzino and ate him handily. The reavers destroyed the next cannon.
-Tilean's turn 3 began with one of the most celebrated rituals in Warhammer Fantasy. All units in Dogs of war army took a leadership test. Luckily for now if they failed, they just squabbled and did nothing instead of running their socks off, unless they rolled Double 6, in this case they did run their socks off! Only the hangunners were affected but the rest of the shooters really didn't need them when they put the rest of the Phoenix guards to Asuryan's Nursery. Teclis chickened off before the naughty laughters of those ruthless Pitfighters. Nevertheless the magical balance was swiftly restored when Tyrion's boys beat and ran down the Bodyguards with the embedded wizard.

The rest of the game beheld the mighty show-down between Eltharion and Lorenzo Lupo. The latter managed to put 2 wounds on the Elf Lord before getting chopped down. With his death, the Alcatanis crumbled before the might of Eltharion, Stromwing, Tyrion (left his Dragon Princes) and the SilverHelms. They still held long enough to witness the demise of the Elven Stardard Bearer and all the Princelings by the nasty Pitfighter's Javenlins though, well, after the knights had put Maximilian to the sword and chased down the Marksmen.

In the end, it was an utter 3 and a half hour bloodbath. High Elves had only 5 models left, Tyrion, Eltharion and 3 Silver Helms. The only Tileans surviving were the Pit fighters and the Hangunners. Of course when one racks up the VP, the Asurs were easily comfortable winners due to the huge worth of their heroes. But then, from now on, Tyrion has better switch his generalship to Mordheim instead :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Lohendrinus wrote:
the same unchanged avatar too. It must be a lifetime crush, eh :wink:


I'll change it when she stops running the evening news :wink:

Are you using the Warhammer Armies Project DoW book? They have some interesting ideas.

Anyway, both armies have a real dream team in the character section - Tyrion&Teclis is usually enough cheese, you added some extra cheddar there :lol:

The battle looks like a fun (can bloodbaths be fun?) - I demand pictures of this epic contest!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:56 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:

Are you using the Warhammer Armies Project DoW book? They have some interesting ideas.

Anyway, both armies have a real dream team in the character section - Tyrion&Teclis is usually enough cheese, you added some extra cheddar there :lol:

The battle looks like a fun (can bloodbaths be fun?) - I demand pictures of this epic contest!


Yes, I use the Warhammer Armies Project DOW 8th Edition made in 2013. Any change ever since made it worse :wink:.
All my units have been put back quite neatly after their recent abuses so the chance for pictures has been lost. I will surely make a Video BR of my next battle though, at 2000 pts first. At 3500-4000 pts solo play, I don't think I have enough mental energy left for photograph :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Do photos - ain't nobody got time for video battle reports (ok I do occasionally, but I prefer pictures with some text)!

First White Dwarfs I bought had DoW in them, though the only miniature I ever saw live was the Bronzino Galloper Gun - great line that was :)

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cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:11 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Do photos - ain't nobody got time for video battle reports (ok I do occasionally, but I prefer pictures with some text)!

First White Dwarfs I bought had DoW in them, though the only miniature I ever saw live was the Bronzino Galloper Gun - great line that was :)


Ok, a compromise, I will make a video of sliding photos with text comments. I urgently need a video on Youtube though to kickstart the local tabletop wargame group. At 2000 pts, it hopefully takes mere 30 mins of your time :)


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