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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:50 am 
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Hey all. 1st time posting, forum seems fairly active and I'd love to toss my list I made out there and get some assistance!

My folks are retiring and were selling their house earlier this year and when I was cleaning my old room out... I came across my Warhammer stuff! Its been even more fun getting back into the hobby as an adult than when I was a kid. Spent the past few months assembling and painting. With that said, I'd love some help with making a HE list.

I've been able to recruit a few friends that have bought and painted some units themselves, nerds unite! So far our group has Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Vamp Counts, Warriors of Choas and Lizardmen armies. We've played a few Core only games at around 250-500 points, just big enough to be confused by the rules haha. Since I'm sort of leading the group, I wanted to get a little more active with the online warhammer community and get some feedback on lists. I'm all for giving credit where credit is due and blame the itch to play regular games with friends on OnceBitten360 and MiniWargaming for having really fun battle reports to watch.

I am on the competitive side and would not want to build any "fluffy" lists, on the same note, I also don't need anything too complex or strong that would be a tournament list either. We usually do a regular meeting engagement type battle. on a 4x3 or 4x6 table. A Triumph and Treachery game is our near future goal of 2017.

Here is what I have so far, feel free to critique, praise or dismantle as needed.
1000 Points on the dot.

Lords
(275 points)
Level 3 Archmage - Lore of Light
Book of Hoeth
Khaines Ring of Fury (contains Soul Quench spell from High Magic and does not appear to be a 1 use only item, like the ring of volanus or whatever)
Talisman of Protection, 6+ ward

No Heroes:
Passed on a BSB noble, as HE leadership is good and the game is small enough I thought it best to get another unit instead.

Core:
(290 points)
14 Archers (3 ranks of 5) : Elves have a rule that lets them fire from an additional rank right?
No command
Used to hold the mage.

15 Archers (3 ranks of 5) 2 blocks of 15 takes up less space than 2 lines of 7 wide. If I lose a unit to magic or shooting it blows a large size hole in my line.
No command

Special:
(435 Points total. 215 for SMaster and 220 for WLions)

15 Sword Masters
Banner and Musician

15 White Lions
Banner and Musician
Banner of Gleaming Pennant (the unit is stubborn, so this might not be the best choice?). I figured this would be my MVP unit and felt like it might need a
banner of some kind to help it.

_____
Total: 1000

I've been torn between trying to drop some of the archers to pick up a unit champ for the melee units or a better ward save for the mage. A unit champ might be a good sacrificial guy against a WOC champ or character challenge.
Strategy is fairly simple. Turns 1-3 pewpewpew with arrows and magic. Turns 3-6 buff/hex and hope for some ASF high initiative dice gods to help. I don't have any spearmen mostly because they feel weak against all but the empire core troops, I wanted to build a list that could possible tackle most armies and spearmen or seaguard just didn't feel like a good match. Could be way wrong though.

How does the list look? Anything that looks like an absolutely terrible idea? Any tips or tricks so to speak with lores or HE strategy at 1000 points?

Cheers,
-Virtue-


Last edited by VirtuePHX on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:15 am 
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Welcome to the forum. The hobby is indeed great fun even for adults. A lot of it is the same as for kids, but it's also a bit different somehow. Rolling dice is fun whether you're 7 or 70. But it gets a bit more tactical depth as you get older. Also, I personally have a bit more patience to collect, assemble and paint a whole army then when I was a kid. Of course, more disposable income to simply buy models helps as well.

If you have any rules or situation queries then let us know. We have discussed most of the vague rules in the Rules questions sub forum. But not everything is covered there. And some things are just vague without being a direct rules query.

An important thing to probably keep in mind with games at 1000pts is that they can get a bit unbalanced. It's great for starting out. But as you progress you start feeling like the game was meant more for 1750 - 3000pts then lower or higher. Magic and shooting can be very strong for instance at this points level.

As for your list, it looks like a good starting point. Some remarks

The ring of fury can indeed be used more then once. Light is a good choice for the archmage. All spells can be useful in a HE list. I think I would personally drop the ring and the talisman and get a 4th level on the mage. You get +4 to cast and dispell instead of +3 and you have just as many spells. Also, the chance of getting the spells from the lore of light you want increases by rolling an extra dice. Either you roll all you want or you get a double and you can chose. And if you still have one that you don't want you can default to the signature spell which is roughly the same as the ring of fury (except that you can cast a boosted version with a higher strength). Also, I think the book of hoeth doesn't work together with the ring, since with a bound spell, it is the item that does the casting and not the bearer of the item.

Not taking a BSB at this points level is something you can get away with. A failed LD roll will still hurt and make you wish you had brought one. But you can take a lot of other useful stuff for those points. If you would want to bring a BSB I would probably put him on a horse and take Silver Helms in core instead of archers.

The HE special rules indeed allow the archers to fire in 3 ranks. Which means putting 15 in 3*5 works great (or at higher points 3*7). Of course, the archers can actually change formation during the game, so if you think that 2*7 is better at some point, don't hesitate to do so (though keep in mind that it counts as moving and so gives -1 to hit when shooting). 2 units of 15 is probably better then one big unit of 30 (or 29). It allows you to split fire between different targets if that's useful. It can let one unit also sacrifice itself by blocking some enemy unit without costing too many points. And it gives your mage a unit to flee to when his unit is threatened (or shot to pieces). One thing to keep in mind (especially at this points level) is that HE archers actually fight pretty decently. With ASF they have a higher hit rate then many elite units. And they fight in three ranks, giving the unit 15 attacks. They're pretty decent against many other core units (though fighting DE core might not be the best idea). So, don't hesitate to charge them into a weaker unit when the opportunity arises.

Your special units are decent. Give them a try and see what you like. Most people prefer WL to SM. SM are great when they get into combat. Especially against lighter armoured and/or high WS units. But they are vulnerable to almost all shooting. WL have great protection against shooting and stubborn makes them amazing. Even in a hopeless situation you can often count on them to stick around to the last man (elf). And with fighting in 3 ranks (and only getting 1 attack in the second and third rank) means they hit about as well as SM, in 1 rank, SM have twice as many attacks as WL, in 3 ranks, the difference is 25% (1-2 vs 3-4). Still, give SM a try and see what you think. I like them and I know some people have had great success running them.

The gleaming pennant is great to put in your list. For the few points it costs, it can save a lot of points. Everyone at some point has failed a roll where they thought anything but a 9...

The tactics you have in mind is a good starting point. You're right that in general archers are a better choice then spearmen, unless you have a specific purpose or reason for bringing them in mind. Archers are easier to use in that sense.

One thing to keep in mind is that SM and WL don't benefit from the ASF reroll (or going first). It's because they have both ASF and ASL (from their great weapons). If you have both of those then they cancel out and you always fight at your initiative step. Which means they're still likely to go first against a lot of units. But unfortunately no reroll.

Give the list a try and let us know how it went. It's a pretty solid list. And we can give more specific points if you have some idea about how the list plays and how you play. I for instance like ganging up on part of my opponents army while redirecting the rest of it, trying to punch through as fast as possible. But there are people who prefer to hang back and shoot / magic stuff. Or who use cavalry focussed lists. It's a bit down to personal preference what works for you.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:56 am 
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Welcome back to the hobby! Its a good time to come back perhaps - no need to chase the meta or new releases - you can just pick lists and play.

Good list, fairly defensive.

The Wizard is ok, though I'd pick another magic level instead of the Ring. Lore of Light has a very good magic missile in Banishment, so you'd like to increase your chances of getting that.

Archers are a good pick - 15 can even hold their own in a fight at this point level. Stuff like Clanrats or Empire infantry beware! You might want to have a champion in the unit bodyguarding the Wizard, to issue/accept challenges.

Two elite infantry units is perhaps too much? I consider some cavalry or other fast moving units, to have an option of a fast assault, should you need it.

Some redirectors would be nice, as well. A single eagle should add that machine-hunting ability.

Give it a whirl against your opponents and you'll quickly find if you need to change anything. A lot depends on personal preference and tactics - if you prefer to stay back and lure the enemy towards you you'll likely invest in some RBTs; if you find yourself tempted to take the fight to the enemy you'll reconsider taking some Knights and perhaps a mounted BSB (with the Star Lance), to help them out.

Best of luck!

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cheers, Lee

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:54 am 
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Awesome advice and thanks for taking time to respond.

Played a practice game against Lizardmen this evening and see major value in a lev 4 mage with the book of hoath. The +4 to cast from wizard level combined with the dispell and caste re-rolls from the book really extend the power and dispell pools. After tonight's game I think even the lore of shadows could be good for HE too.

My archers did a good job of knocking out skinks at long range and I think will be worth keeping to handle low strength low armor save units, I did waste 1 of the archer units shots on the Basildon Solar Engine thing. Which just made me feel stupid when I got to the armor save....lol. It got me thinking that my list might not have an answer for monsters. I got lucky and got the flank of the Basildon with a looong charge from my sword masters and was able to kill it mostly due to lucky rolling.

Was able to see how crippling the magic phase can be when your opponent rolls only for only 3-6 power dice. Skink priest was only a level so that probably helped me feel dominant in that phase. But I'd prob give my mage the MVP award for tonights game for all the dispells and magic missiles he got off. Took out a unit of skinks and 1 salamander before they could even get within shooting range. The Net of Amyntok was just plain brutal when I got it off onto the skink priests skirmish unit, probably the only unit on the LM list thats worth chucking that spell onto. It blew up a few times when they tried to march and when the skink tried to cast. LM cold blood rule was really frustrating though, esp when you can use the generals leadership rule.

A salamander got off shot into my archers and not even kidding took out 7 in 1 shot. Passed my leadership but learned from this game that skinks move and shoot/long range isnt as scary as the god dam fire-breathing salamanders. White Lions took care of the salamander is close combat and over ran into the sauraus warriors, who then got flanked by the swordsmen when they finished the Basildon. The white lions took a beating from the sauraus character in the sauraus unit though, I swear there was about 6 to 8 attacks each turn. Some magic wep that adds extra attacks combined with a predatory fighter rule was brutal. I think at a larger point game slamming a Nobel with a damage build into the flank of a unit would be absolutely insane. Flanks don't get parry saves, right?

Besides the Comet spell killing a couple white lions early in the game, I felt the list did well. I had some poor target priority with choosing the Basildon that one turn instead of more skinks or the 2nd salamander. I did drop an archer and added a unit champ in the sorcerers unit to help be a sacrificial body to protect my mage in the event they get into combat. I also dropped the mage and upgrade to an archmage level 4 and gave him the book of hoath. So the list tops off still at exactly 1000 points. Even with ASL from the 2h weps, I thought the SM's and WL's did a good job against the Lizardmen.

Mage lev 4. Lore of Light (high magic and shadow could be good too). BOH

14 archers, with champ
14 archers

15 SM. Banner/Music
15 WL Banner/Music

I'll have to read more about eagles RE.Lee, I did a quick google search of their tactics and using them to expose a flank could be amazing at this point level. Plus their statline is actually alright for 50 points.

I think if I dropped a unit of archers Id have to pick up a BSB. Turns 1-3 I was able to knock out almost a 1/3rd of the LM list. The only disadvantage I felt in the game was seeing so many dam units on the LM side of the table, it made picking targets to shoot and magic kinda hard. That could just be that I'm still new to actually playing and in the moment of the game didnt take a step back and crunch numbers in my head. The 1 turn I dumped 15 shots at the Basildon, I moved, I was at long range and after the hit rolls and wound rolls, I was at 1 dice in my hand. Which naturally didn't get passed the armor save.

Already wishing I could play another game with the slightly modified list....

Thanks again for the help. Im sure you'll see more list questions or rules questions from me along the way shortly. The ASF and ASL at the sametime is kinda confusing when trying to play it out on the board for the 1st time.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:01 am 
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Sounds like you had a great game.

Your report shows a bit what I meant when I said that the game can be a bit unbalanced at 1000pts. Magic is (relatively speaking) a lot stronger at 1000pts then at 2000. After all, you get the same amount of power dice / dispell dice, but there are twice as many models on the table. So expect the effectiveness of magic to drop as you start playing bigger games. Also, Archmage + book of hoeth is about as strong a phase as you can make. Still, when you run into a list with a lvl 4 and a scroll, getting the right spells through will be harder.

Shadow magic is a great lore for HE. It's very allround, it plays to our strengths and minimises our weaknesses. Just the threat of mindrazor on a LD 8 / 9 unit with 15+ attacks is enough to make the lore worth it. But the other spells are great as well. It's a common lore for HE power lists. High magic is a bit different. It's more a speciality lore, where you have to have a clear plan of how you want to use it. The problem with it is that it doesn't do much for a HE army once it's in combat.

Nobels can be worth it, just be careful though that HE don't have many good fighting character on foot builds. The reason is that the only way to get a good armour save as a HE character is to take magical armour. And you will need it, since a T3 model with 2 - 3 wounds will not survive long in combat against many units. If you put him on a horse, it becomes easier, since you get +1 AS for being mounted, you can take barding and heavy armour. Which already gives you a 3+ save, which can easily be improved with a shield, with a magical shield or with the dragonhelm for instance (to get a 2+ or 1+ save). And then there's also a bit a "math" problem with characters on foot. Will you take a model which does 3 S6 hits with 2 - 3 wounds for somewhere between 150 and 250 points. Or will you take between 10 - 20 White lions who get 10 - 20 S6 hits with 10-20 wounds. I personally prefer the unit to the character.

It (again) becomes a bit different when you put him on a horse. The problem with cavalry is that after the initial charge they don't do much in combat (being only S3). With a mounted character in there, you can have someone who takes very few wounds (because he has a high armour save, perhaps a ward) and who can remain S6 or S7 in multiple rounds of combat. It works well for HE lists. For an example, check out The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports. It's an army blog of a great player who has successfully used the cavalry prince in a HE army.

VirtuePHX wrote:
The only disadvantage I felt in the game was seeing so many dam units on the LM side of the table, it made picking targets to shoot and magic kinda hard.

This is probably something you'll need to get used to when playing HE. It's an elite army, which means you're very often outnumbered. It's not a bad thing, but it is something to factor into the list. And you can do stuff to mitigate the problem a bit. Refused flank deployments for instance are common for HE players (although they work better at higher points values). The idea is that you place most of your army on one flank of your deployment zone. If your opponent deploys as normal and uses his entire deployment zone (and horde armies sometimes don't have a choice because they have so many units), then you can create local superiority on the flank with all your units on it. You then try to deal with that portion of your opponents army before his backup arrives.

It's also where eagles come in. For a complete overview of what eagles can do for you check out Great Eagle Tips and Tricks. While their stats are decent, and they can hold their own against something like a warmachine, their value is not actually in combat. Their value is in the fact that you can take a relatively cheap unit and place it pretty much anywhere on the battlefield and hold up a unit worth 10 times its cost for a turn (or two sometimes). It's a unit that gives you control of the movement phase and thus of the battlefield. The basic idea is simple. Your opponents big unit moves up and you don't want to fight it next turn. You fly your eagle (with 20'' range you can get to a lot of places) in front of the unit. You place it 1'' in front of it so that it can either charge the eagle or stand still. Make sure to angle the eagle so that an overrun of the unit will take it away from the centre of the fight. When the eagle is charged, hold. The eagle will (most likely) die. But that's ok. It managed to keep a big expensive unit busy, giving you time to deal with the rest of the army or to set up charges from multiple units on that one unit.

Rod

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Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Good to see some new players and great to hear your thoughts and experiences its a great read whether your a new or experienced player so keep it coming.

I can second learn to use an eagle/reavers I don't leave home without one or both and the other thing I always try to fit into my list is an RBT. I like their versatility with their volley shot and having the option of the S6 bolt is always handy.


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