Cavalry Prince Reloaded

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#31 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:Extra drops are nice, though I've recently started thinking about limiting mine to increase the chances of getting the first turn. Those gunlines!
The 20-strong World Dragon bus packed with characters does have it's points RE.

:)
Elithmar wrote:If I was taking glade guard I wouldn't be able to resist the enchanted arrows, but you've gone for the sensible option. I'd actually forgotten high elf archers couldn't take banners.
My Wood Elves are all about the Hagbane. But the unit I've picked here fits very nicely under 200pts. The Flaming Enchanted Arrows are 4pts per model and the unit doesn't work out so well. There's a case for Hagbane or Trueflight but RBT and Hand of Glory cover those bases and they'd cost me Flaming. The old HE Flaming Archer unit was really useful and wasn't properly replaced.

Nice to see you Eli!
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#32 Post by RE.Lee »

Not a fan of the Sisters? I haven't used them myself, the short range is a shame...

Nothing beats a good old Death Star, you've got that one right! :lol:
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#33 Post by Prince of Spires »

Interesting list. A mix between default choices and unusual ones. The glade guard are necessary to give you some decent shooting I think, fleshing out your core and nicely complementing the spears and SH. I'm wondering if the SH unit is big enough with only 8 + prince and BSB.

I like the SM unit. It's unusual and could give people trouble. Unless they run a lot of shooting of course. I'm wondering if the lichebone pennant is worth the points. Mage going in there to use the High magic ward boost?

I'm interested to hear how the chariot performs. They're a bit hit and miss for me. They combine nicely with infantry units and can give an extra CR boost. On the other hand, they're a bit fragile and a single chariot lacks a bit on reliability. Still, it should be largely ignored with the bigger threats on the table.

The thing I'm mainly wondering about if it's worth the points is the lvl 2 mage. It does add some back up in case the archmage decides to take a holiday in the warp. But it's also 150pts that perhaps can be used elsewhere.

As for sisters, I'd like to give them a try (once I get a unit finished). See if I can put together a functional HE shooty list. Sisters, RBT, shadow warriors. It would be an interesting challenge. :)

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#34 Post by Elithmar »

I like sisters. Their shots are basically RBT multi-shot, except higher BS (half the range though which nullifies this) and they can move. Also great for ethereal and regen. What's not to like? ;) They should really have been given a musician or skirmisher though...
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#35 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks for your thoughts on Sisters guys. I feel this is illuminating:
Seredain wrote:I have, over time, become increasingly dissatisfied with Sisters of Avelorn as a single small utility unit. Albeit I think the new book is a wonderful object, giving us access to a fantastic variety of army builds and good combined-arms options, there are some things that reek of last-minute decision making that don’t seem to have been thought through properly. The first standout example is the fact that Tempest needs to wound, not hit, before its nerf applies – making it useless against the war machines for which it was obviously originally designed. The second standout example, for me, is the Sisters of Avelorn. With no musician and standard, these archers were surely conceived as skirmishing troops.

Perhaps GW didn’t want to step on Asrai toes, but the fact is that a 24” range on a unit that has to wheel and can only move 5” is not what I’d call an adaptable shooting platform. I bow my head to players who field large units and can see, there, the massive benefit of being able to stand-and-shoot in a way that bolt throwers can’t manage. I can also see that having two or more small units of sisters would get much more out of them, since prime targets would be far less able to escape from flaming shots. But, for me, 70 points of bolt thrower is much, much more effective in an all-comers environment than 70 points of sisters
Prince of Spires wrote:Interesting list. A mix between default choices and unusual ones. The glade guard are necessary to give you some decent shooting I think, fleshing out your core and nicely complementing the spears and SH. I'm wondering if the SH unit is big enough with only 8 + prince and BSB.
Cheers Rod. I agree, the fighting units are a bit iffy but the support is bloody good. Eight Helms is indeed cutting things down to the bone but I'm gambling on the power of World Dragon.
Prince of Spires wrote:I like the SM unit. It's unusual and could give people trouble. Unless they run a lot of shooting of course. I'm wondering if the lichebone pennant is worth the points. Mage going in there to use the High magic ward boost?
It's risky without World Dragon. Indeed, the Archmage sits in, Lichebone is IMHO very good here because a headstart on getting to 5++ or 4++ vs spells is excellent. As mentioned, I also expect to generate a 5++ vs shooting most of the time. Plus I have fast attack units to draw fire and my own shooting/magic to level things up.
Prince of Spires wrote:The thing I'm mainly wondering about if it's worth the points is the lvl 2 mage. It does add some back up in case the archmage decides to take a holiday in the warp. But it's also 150pts that perhaps can be used elsewhere.
In general I'm with you Rod but here I have a very specific problem. I only have 500pts of Lords allowance. This limits me to a Lvl 3 Archmage with no extra spells, not enough. Hence I add two with the Mage, who can also carry the (mandatory) Scroll. I intend to generate spells first with the Archmage and go for buffs, which are always castable to boost the Ward save. That leaves the Mage with a better chance of the longer-ranged spells that make sense when bunkered in archers.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#36 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:The thing I'm mainly wondering about if it's worth the points is the lvl 2 mage. It does add some back up in case the archmage decides to take a holiday in the warp. But it's also 150pts that perhaps can be used elsewhere.
In general I'm with you Rod but here I have a very specific problem. I only have 500pts of Lords allowance. This limits me to a Lvl 3 Archmage with no extra spells, not enough. Hence I add two with the Mage, who can also carry the (mandatory) Scroll. I intend to generate spells first with the Archmage and go for buffs, which are always castable to boost the Ward save. That leaves the Mage with a better chance of the longer-ranged spells that make sense when bunkered in archers.
That makes sense. I hadn't done the math for the archmage (being too lazy ;) ), and had simply assumed a lvl4. But that makes sense. 3 levels indeed is very light and not good enough for High magic. Too much chance of getting stuck with 3 spells that are acceptable but not great. I think this setup will fit your playstyle quite well.

As for sisters, I haven't tried them yet. But I can imagine that the shortcomings mentioned are indeed true. It definitely reads like that on paper. However, this argument mainly holds in a combined arms list such as Seredain would run. There the rare shooting base has a very specific function, which is best filled by RBT. The longer range already makes them much better suited for the job. Things start to change I think when you're running a more static, shooty army and you already have included 3 RBT. Putting a unit of 20 sisters (probably including an almost mandatory handmaiden) on the table next to those 3 RBT changes things around. I'm not sure how well it works (since my archers usually fail to wound anything), but it's a very different scenario to a cavalry prince army with either 1-2 RBT or 5-10 sisters.

Still, the lack of either skirmish or musician could be a deal breaker. I'll give it a try at some point (when I have a unit painted up and actually time to play a game). But 38 AP S4 shots (and a bunch of s3 core shots) will make you think a bit. And if they don't work all that well, I could always houserule them to be skirmishing (which is more useful to them then a musician I think).

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#37 Post by SpellArcher »

Here's a list that was run by Lecai, formerly of this forum Rod:

Archmage, lvl4, Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown
BSB, Barded Steed, Sword of Might, Ench Shield, Dawnstone
Handmaiden, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength

Archers
7 Helms, Shields, FC
3 x Reavers

27 Lions, FC, World Dragon
24 PG, FC, Razor Standard

20 Sisters, Champion
3 RBT
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#38 Post by Prince of Spires »

More or less that idea indeed. Though I would give it my own flavour of course. From the top of my head I would decrease the PG, smaller unit of WL, no BotWD (since I don't think it's a good idea to bring it vs my regular opponent) or replace the WL with something else. I would also increase the helms in size and drop one or 2 reaver units and bring SW in special instead.

Something like
Archmage, lvl4, Shadow (probably)
BSB, Barded Steed
Handmaiden, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength

Archers
10 Helms, Shields, FC
2 x Reavers

15-20 PG, FC, Razor Standard
2 x SW
SM / Lion chariot with the left over points

20 Sisters, Champion
3 RBT

With just a BSB, 7 SH is not enough I feel. The SW can replace the reavers I think and add a (rather small) mobile shooting base, which can be highly annoying to your opponent, and it fits nicely with the theme :) 15 PG generally works great for me, though given the nature of the list I can imagine that a slightly larger unit is better. I expect them to take a bigger beating and be needed more for protecting the shooting units then in a standard combined arms list. So perhaps uping them to 20 is a good idea. I'm not a fan of WL hordes with BotWD. Doesn't really fit my style of play or environment. My opponent will have heaps of trouble with such a unit. Wouldn't be fun to play with or against. A larger unit of SM (15 - 20) would help deal with cheap horde units and would be interesting to try. A lion chariot (actually 2 would be minimal I think) give a threat zone which can help defensively. Of course, trying Alith Anar in such a list would be a fun experiment as well.

Of course, everything changes once you start adding up the points. And usually I find out I need more compromises.

I am slightly taking over your cavalry prince topic though...

Rod
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#39 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote: With just a BSB, 7 SH is not enough I feel.
The idea is to move the BSB around to provide re-rolls and maybe tank stuff on his 1+ RR. Not really a fighting unit as such.
Prince of Spires wrote:I'm not a fan of WL hordes with BotWD. Doesn't really fit my style of play or environment. My opponent will have heaps of trouble with such a unit. Wouldn't be fun to play with or against.
It's a pretty hard unit generally but it really struggles against certain foes, Witch Elves or Wild Riders for example. It can make a solid bunker because of the shooting resistance and Stubborn. By dropping it you're definitely losing some of the list's solidity Rod. That said, you retain a very strong shooting phase that demands respect. The Sisters unit is potent but needs to be deployed where you know it can target stuff. Given the 24" range and lack of Musician, that probably rules out the far flanks. It's Rare of course which costs you the Frostheart, combining with RBT in a bowline indeed looks the better option. No doubt Sisters plus Phoenix could work but I'd be uncomfortable without S6 single bolts.
Prince of Spires wrote: I am slightly taking over your cavalry prince topic though...
That is entirely cool!

:)
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#40 Post by SpellArcher »

Image

So I've finished this, my third bolt shooter, I kind of feel that is the right number for my army. The model is the Avenger Bolt Thrower from LOTR, sadly Finecast (my first two are metal). Next the difficult bit, the crew!

:)
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#41 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: The model is the Avenger Bolt Thrower from LOTR, sadly Finecast
It doesn't show ;)

Looks good. I think it will fit nicely into your army. It has your very distinct color scheme.

3 is indeed a good number for them. They provide a solid, reliable shooting base for an army. And 4 is probably going overboard with them. That would be 70 points better spend elsewhere. Going below 3 and they go from a serious threat to more of a nuisance.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#42 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Rod. I am hard at work converting the crew!

Three (plus a unit of archers) is enough I think, in a way that two might not always be. Four is usually better but it's a bit tedious for an opponent to play against.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#43 Post by RE.Lee »

Three RBTs is solid. Thats how many I own, though I usually field two.

The model looks nice, in line with your other historical-like miniatures :wink: A busy team of Roman legionnaires wouldn't look out of place next to it!
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#44 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks dude!
RE.Lee wrote: A busy team of Roman legionnaires wouldn't look out of place next to it!
The end result will be slightly different.

:)
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#45 Post by SpellArcher »

Here's my draft '1500+500' list. I have about a week to get all three lists to Mark the TO. Bit less sure of this one, compared to the larger list:


Archmage, Lvl 4 High, 4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
Noble, Barded Steed, HA, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone
BSB, Barded Steed, DA, Lance, Shield, World Dragon

12 Archers, FC, LA
8 Silver Helms, FC, Shields

17 Swordmasters. FC, Lichebone Pennant

2 RBT
2 Eagles

14 Glade Guard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
Frost Phoenix

Thoughts especially welcome...
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#46 Post by Prince of Spires »

Keeping the cavalry prince theme I would:

- drop the core archers and replace them with more SH and a unit of reavers. You could also bring 2 reaver units and keep the SH unit the same size if you want. But I think 8 is on the small side. Especially with only a noble in there instead of a Prince. 12 archers don't do a lot and they're very expensive for what they do. Especially with the armour on them. And the glade guard + RBT already have the shooting base covered.

- Drop the eagles. With a unit of reavers in core (see above point), there is no further need for redirectors. Dropping these optimises the list.

- On the characters I would drop the DA on the BSB, the ironcurse icon, and the lichebone pennant from the swordmasters. I know they combine nicely with high magic and the level 4. But I feel they take up too many points at 1500+500 pts. Dropping these frees up a lot of points for other nice stuff.

With all the points you've gained, around 150 or so by my count, you should be able to put another unit on the table. Something like a small unit of WL or a chariot. I think this poses a bigger threat then the extra ward saves on the SM. Even more so because warmachines and magic will be more limited at 1500pts as well, making them less useful. You could even consider dropping some of the command models on the SM for even more boots on the ground. I think champ and banner don't add all that much at 1500pts. If you squeeze a bit you could get 15 or so WL on the table. Doing so would really flesh out the list and give you a lot more options.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#47 Post by RE.Lee »

I agree with Rod that the archers don't do much. You've got basic shooting covered with the RBTs, and the Glade Guards are just plain better.

I love eagles so I'd stick with them as redirectors. Another small unit of SH would be my pick, with leftover points used to upgrade the Bus.

Tag team the SH units and eagles for great effect.

I'd go for Banner of Swiftness on the Swordmasters so that they can try to keep up with the cavalry.
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#48 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys.
Prince of Spires wrote:- drop the core archers and replace them with more SH and a unit of reavers. You could also bring 2 reaver units and keep the SH unit the same size if you want. But I think 8 is on the small side. Especially with only a noble in there instead of a Prince. 12 archers don't do a lot and they're very expensive for what they do. Especially with the armour on them. And the glade guard + RBT already have the shooting base covered.
It's hard to fault your logic here Rod. Problem is, I don't have any more Silver Helm or Reaver models. In mitigation, World Dragon is a huge equaliser on the bus, especially at effectively 2000pts.The Archers are definitely inefficient but they should be OK vs this field:


Charles Edward Heart - Wood Elves
Mark Peat - High Elves (should there be an un-even number of players)
Lynsey Swift - Skaven
Phil Rossiter - High Elves
Luke Stout - Empire or Dwarves - Army TBC
Warren Stevens - Vampire Counts
Julie Stevens - Dark Elves
Andy Wood - Dark Elves
Stuart Gadd - Wood Elves or Vampire Counts; Army TBC
Nathan Bradley - Vampire Counts
Andrew Hogan - Army TBC
Alex Hogan - Army TBC
Matt Stafford - Warriors of Chaos
Prince of Spires wrote:- Drop the eagles. With a unit of reavers in core (see above point), there is no further need for redirectors. Dropping these optimises the list.
I personally feel that one unit of Reavers is not enough redirection at 2000pts (pre-End Times) but as mentioned it's slightly academic.
Prince of Spires wrote:With all the points you've gained, around 150 or so by my count, you should be able to put another unit on the table. Something like a small unit of WL or a chariot. I think this poses a bigger threat then the extra ward saves on the SM. Even more so because warmachines and magic will be more limited at 1500pts as well, making them less useful. You could even consider dropping some of the command models on the SM for even more boots on the ground. I think champ and banner don't add all that much at 1500pts. If you squeeze a bit you could get 15 or so WL on the table. Doing so would really flesh out the list and give you a lot more options.
It would certainly be an idea. I happen to think that the Archers might actually be more useful than the Lions here because 15 is not enough from everything I've seen. But another unit might well be better than the Archers. Again, I feel the Swordmasters need the trimmings because of Challenges etc..
RE.Lee wrote:I agree with Rod that the archers don't do much. You've got basic shooting covered with the RBTs, and the Glade Guards are just plain better.
I considered dropping an RBT RE. But I could be facing Dragons here.
RE.Lee wrote:I'd go for Banner of Swiftness on the Swordmasters so that they can try to keep up with the cavalry.
I tried this earlier in 8th edition and discarded it. Basically because half the time I didn't want to push the Swordmasters. Lacking World Dragon I feel I really need Lichebone (and Ironcurse) because if I get one spell off (which I probably will most turns) I have a 5++ vs ranged instead of 6++, this makes the Swordmasters harder to deal with.

I know it seems like I'm not bending much here but as said, I'm a bit hamstrung re Core models. I feel like the list needs a single tweak but I'm still not sure exactly what. You're helping me work it through though!
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#49 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: I know it seems like I'm not bending much here but as said, I'm a bit hamstrung re Core models. I feel like the list needs a single tweak but I'm still not sure exactly what. You're helping me work it through though!
No worries. Sometimes you just need people bouncing ideas off you to get an idea of what you need. Model availability is of course the first and most important limitation when list building. You can't bring what you don't own. Simple as that. Of course, since we don't know what you have and what not, it's hard to factor in for us. :)

Of course, if it were my list and I would be going for the strongest, most reliable option I would replace the SM with 15 PG with the razor banner. They're more reliable and durable then the SM. They murder a lot of things that get into combat with them and hold up the rest. And they don't require babysitting (or at least a lot less then the SM).

Switching the SM to PG would mean changing lores on the archmage as well. I think High works less well with PG then with SM. Shadow would probably be the go to lore then. But something else could work as well. Shadow would also work great to support the SH bus. More so then high (when the archmage is not in the bus).
SpellArcher wrote: I personally feel that one unit of Reavers is not enough redirection at 2000pts (pre-End Times) but as mentioned it's slightly academic.
You're probably right. 1 redirector per 1000pts feels right. However, it's all about compromises. And with the 'odd' 1500 + 500 format, this is where I would compromise. But, indeed it's an academic discussion at this point. Given that 8 SH is the most cavalry we can fit in core, the 12 archers are indeed probably the best choice for core. Not much that can be done about that. You could consider dropping the armour, champ and banner from them and bring 3 more archers for a unit of 15 (if that makes min-core, haven't done the math and it's 2 points cheaper).

I would still consider dropping one eagle if you need the points somewhere else. 1 is pushing it. But it's the main place I see where you can get points from. Unless you would drop the non-BSB noble. But that would really detract from the bus.

Another option is of course to bring all archer core, drop the RBT and bring DP's in special instead of SM and RBT.

Rod
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#50 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Of course, if it were my list and I would be going for the strongest, most reliable option I would replace the SM with 15 PG with the razor banner. They're more reliable and durable then the SM. They murder a lot of things that get into combat with them and hold up the rest. And they don't require babysitting (or at least a lot less then the SM).
I more or less adopted the Swordmasters from Seredain Rod. In some ways they sum up his philosophy, which was 'Kill 'em all.' By selecting them you are going for maximum damage, with the aim of engaging and destroying the enemy's best troops. The trade-off is solidity, when things go wrong they can go badly wrong. I'm not sure how you feel they need babysitting?
Prince of Spires wrote:Switching the SM to PG would mean changing lores on the archmage as well. I think High works less well with PG then with SM. Shadow would probably be the go to lore then. But something else could work as well. Shadow would also work great to support the SH bus. More so then high (when the archmage is not in the bus).
Here we disagree. If 4++ PG are hard to shift, 3++ PG are insane. Both Seredain's and Justin Burgy's take on these are very scary indeed.
Prince of Spires wrote:I would still consider dropping one eagle if you need the points somewhere else. 1 is pushing it. But it's the main place I see where you can get points from.
I'd like a little more combat punch so maybe I can drop one for the chariot? At 70pts it can still redirect if necessary. I'd have to find 20pts from somewhere though.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#51 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: I more or less adopted the Swordmasters from Seredain Rod. In some ways they sum up his philosophy, which was 'Kill 'em all.' By selecting them you are going for maximum damage, with the aim of engaging and destroying the enemy's best troops. The trade-off is solidity, when things go wrong they can go badly wrong. I'm not sure how you feel they need babysitting?
Don't underestimate the killing power of the PG. Unlike the SM they do get rerolls to hit. And since they're I6 they get it against pretty much all units in the game (other then other ASF units). They do lack the higher S, but that's partially compensated by the razor banner. So you only really notice against higher T units.

As for the babysitting, PG are LD9 of their own. Which is safer on its own, away from general and / or BSB, then the LD8 of the SM. The innate 4+ ward means that they will lose fewer models to shooting or magic (except for remove model type spells). In effect, they have twice the number of wounds the SM do. So they keep their ranks longer, lose fewer models in combat and in general are very hard to shift. I've had plenty of games where things went horribly wrong. And my PG are usually the last unit on the table to die or run away.

For the SM, for instance in your list, you give them the lichebone pennant, the ironcurse icon and an archmage to get near the same level of durability. Yes, the archmage does more then babysit the SM (I'm assuming he usually goes in there by the way. Correct me if I'm wrong). But a big part of his appeal is the high magic ward save he brings to the SM. Which both costs points and can also leave you stranded at the wrong time, like when you roll double 1 on the turn you really need your ward saves.
SpellArcher wrote: Here we disagree. If 4++ PG are hard to shift, 3++ PG are insane. Both Seredain's and Justin Burgy's take on these are very scary indeed.
Very true. But with PG you have other options as well. You could just drop a regular mage in there to try and get a single high magic spell off. Also, mindrazored S9 PG are equally insane. Perhaps even more so, considering they are rerolling to hit and fight in 3 ranks. They die 1/6th faster then 3++ PG. But they kill pretty much anything they touch which doesn't have a high wardsave.
SpellArcher wrote: I'd like a little more combat punch so maybe I can drop one for the chariot? At 70pts it can still redirect if necessary. I'd have to find 20pts from somewhere though.
The easiest place to get them is in some combination of the magic items on the characters / SM. Perhaps also drop a single SM.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#52 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Don't underestimate the killing power of the PG. Unlike the SM they do get rerolls to hit. And since they're I6 they get it against pretty much all units in the game (other then other ASF units). They do lack the higher S, but that's partially compensated by the razor banner. So you only really notice against higher T units.
Given that all elves have ASF (and I see a lot of elves) the re-roll is not always there, though it is killer against White Lions for example. I think you're right that the main issue is T6 (especially Monsters). The point of Strength is the main issue with PG vs SM's, just as it is for SM's vs WL's.
Prince of Spires wrote:As for the babysitting, PG are LD9 of their own. Which is safer on its own, away from general and / or BSB, then the LD8 of the SM. The innate 4+ ward means that they will lose fewer models to shooting or magic (except for remove model type spells). In effect, they have twice the number of wounds the SM do. So they keep their ranks longer, lose fewer models in combat and in general are very hard to shift. I've had plenty of games where things went horribly wrong. And my PG are usually the last unit on the table to die or run away.
This is true of unaccompanied Swordmasters but here these things are mitigated by the presence of the Ld9, Ward-generating Archmage.
Prince of Spires wrote:For the SM, for instance in your list, you give them the lichebone pennant, the ironcurse icon and an archmage to get near the same level of durability. Yes, the archmage does more then babysit the SM (I'm assuming he usually goes in there by the way. Correct me if I'm wrong). But a big part of his appeal is the high magic ward save he brings to the SM. Which both costs points and can also leave you stranded at the wrong time, like when you roll double 1 on the turn you really need your ward saves.
The point is that the Archmage functions at full effect and strengthens the Swordmasters. Double one can be a good phase because unless you need Convocation or such, the spell of your choice is going off, barring a scroll. I would agree though that this set-up is inherantly less durable than PG.
Prince of Spires wrote:Very true. But with PG you have other options as well. You could just drop a regular mage in there to try and get a single high magic spell off. Also, mindrazored S9 PG are equally insane. Perhaps even more so, considering they are rerolling to hit and fight in 3 ranks. They die 1/6th faster then 3++ PG. But they kill pretty much anything they touch which doesn't have a high wardsave.
The Mage play is interesting but this guy tends to die much faster in combat than an AM. Mindrazored PG are horrific but you have to get that particular spell past dice and probably scroll. For Shield of Saphery to work you only need to get one spell off, it doesn't matter which one. If I had the models I would go straight for 20 PG with Razor and High Archmage. My Lichebone Swordmasters are substantially cheaper but softer. They really want World Dragon and Book of Hoeth on the Archmage which is an equally strong unit as the PG IMHO. But those choices are unavailable.
Prince of Spires wrote:The easiest place to get them is in some combination of the magic items on the characters / SM. Perhaps also drop a single SM.
You're right Rod but I've had a look and I can't see a way I'm happy with.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#53 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:Given that all elves have ASF (and I see a lot of elves) the re-roll is not always there
This is probably a big factor in the decision. I rarely run into elves. Which means PG are a great choice. But in elf vs elf battles the SM are a great choice, given the number of attacks and higher ws.
SpellArcher wrote:They really want World Dragon and Book of Hoeth on the Archmage which is an equally strong unit as the PG IMHO. But those choices are unavailable.
I have 20 or so SM lying around still in their box. I really need to put them together and give them a few tries. At the moment I can only field a MSU size SM unit. 20 tops. But 30 or 2 X 20 would be fun to try.
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:The easiest place to get them is in some combination of the magic items on the characters / SM. Perhaps also drop a single SM.
You're right Rod but I've had a look and I can't see a way I'm happy with.
I would drop:
eagle
1 SM
Ironcurse icon
Dragon armour to Heavy armour

This nets you 74 points. Or, if the list isn't exactly 1500pts, you could keep the ironcurse icon or DA. Alternatively you could drop the champ from the SM unit instead of a SM. It differs one attack but loses the challenge option. That's the thing with 1500pts though. It's all about what compromises you take.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#54 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Which means PG are a great choice.
I considered using metal Black Guard but that means Ebay.
Prince of Spires wrote:I have 20 or so SM lying around still in their box. I really need to put them together and give them a few tries. At the moment I can only field a MSU size SM unit. 20 tops. But 30 or 2 X 20 would be fun to try.
I feel 20 is a sweet spot Rod. World Dragon makes them awesome against many things but I feel the High Archmage is necessary to plug the gaps, where White Lions can get away with just World Dragon.
Prince of Spires wrote:That's the thing with 1500pts though. It's all about what compromises you take.
What I am finding really limiting is writing lists with effectively lower character allowances than normal. Plus the Glade Guard are good but are making me shooting-heavy. Not to mention when I turn up to find stuff like double Dragon (bonus Monster choice can be from Monstrous Arcanum).
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#55 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: What I am finding really limiting is writing lists with effectively lower character allowances than normal.
I can imagine. For the types of list you run, you tend to be a bit more character heavy then me. Which makes points very tight. The alternative would be to drop the noble and kit out the BSB. But that means no World dragon and gives its own problem. That would completely change the list dynamic.

I'm not really a fan of the Black guard models. I don't like the chainmail for some reason.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#56 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I can imagine. For the types of list you run, you tend to be a bit more character heavy then me. Which makes points very tight. The alternative would be to drop the noble and kit out the BSB. But that means no World dragon and gives its own problem. That would completely change the list dynamic.
At 2000pts I can just about squeeze in two Lords but the compromised Archmage renders the additional Mage pretty much mandatory. At 1500 I can't and the AM is essential to the Swordmasters which forces the downgrading of the Prince. At 1000 the bus is impossible but the upside is I get World Dragon on the Swordmasters.
Prince of Spires wrote: I'm not really a fan of the Black guard models. I don't like the chainmail for some reason.
Personally, I really like the previous, metal Dark Elf range Rod. I have some of the Witch Elves.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#57 Post by RE.Lee »

I have a 5th ed Black Guard somehere in the bits box (where he belongs!) :wink:
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#58 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:a 5th ed Black Guard
One of the big, chunky guys RE?

Image

Crew done!
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#59 Post by RE.Lee »

Its a girl! :D
SpellArcher wrote: One of the big, chunky guys RE?
The same :wink:
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#60 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: Crew done!
Progress! :) Looking good.

I don't know, the DE range always rubs me in the wrong way. Like I said, I dislike the chainmail. But also the DE specific weapons. Too many angles for my taste. Though I'm not too familiar with the older DE range.

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