Cavalry Prince Reloaded

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RE.Lee
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#121 Post by RE.Lee »

WoC seem like a good match-up. The Frostie should be great at holding up the killy stuff and the Swordmasters' WS6 will caome in handy (they won't get shot up, too!).

Bring on the reports!
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#122 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys.
Prince of Spires wrote:Interesting scoring system.
When I discussed it with the other players, the general opinion was that it favours Deathstars Rod. I felt my list was OK for it. While I had a few disposables I also had some hard to kill stuff.
RE.Lee wrote:Swordmasters' WS6 will caome in handy
Indeed it did RE!

Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Mark of Tzeentch, Shadow, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance
Sorcerer, Lvl 2, Death, Skull of Katam
BSB, Mark of Tzeentch, ASF Sword, Enchanted Shield

20 Marauders, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Full Command
22 Warriors, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Full Command
5 Hounds
5 Hounds

3 Dragon Ogres
Warshrine
3 Skullcrushers, Champion
RE.Lee wrote:WoC seem like a good match-up.
Thoughts after seeing the list?
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#123 Post by RE.Lee »

SpellArcher wrote: Thoughts after seeing the list?
Looks super soft - something I'd be fielding :lol:

The Crushers should be easily intercepted (and ground down) by the Phoenix, while the Swordmaster deal with the Warriors (it could be a tough fight - that 5+ parry save is no joke! A combo charge with the SH would come in handy). Spears should have favorable odds against the Marauders. The Dragon Ogres could be a problem - perhaps the SH could run them down before they need to take care of the Chaos infantry.

All in all, I'd place my bets on you winning here, with little fuss.
cheers, Lee

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#124 Post by Prince of Spires »

My first reaction to seeing the scoring system was also "favours deathstars". But then I got thinking a bit and wondered if that wasn't too hasty a judgement. It's an easy reaction, but is it really correct? There are a few elements that made me wonder:
- Line breaker: I think this is more easily achieved with a MMU or MSU type army. A deathstar army is all about the deathstar. And if the fighting happens outside of a deployment zone, then you're more likely to have your deathstar finish in the middel of the table then in a deployment zone.
- units killed: goes both ways a bit. Fighting against a deathstar, you will lose 3-ish units keeping the deathstar busy. And there aren't that many other units in the army to kill. On the other hand, the rest of the army should be reasonably soft. So you should be able to score a bunch of points off that.
- Characters killed: there should be a bunch of them in the deathstar. Those are hard to score points. But some suicide missions with HE could yield results. Still, this does favour the deathstar.
- Table Quarters: Here a deathstar is definitely at a disadvantage. The deathstar can only claim one quarter. A balanced army should be able to grabt he other 3.

So all in all, it's more balanced then it seems. Though to really benefit from the scoring system vs a deathstar army you really have to play for it. Which could feel a bit gamey and perhaps not what you want out of a WH battle.

As for the warriors. It's a balanced enough army. I think a lot will ride on magic (on both sides) and who gets the most important spells off. Most of the army you should be able to deal with. Though you need to be careful to not get bogged down / stuck vs the chaff.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#125 Post by SpellArcher »

Having played six games under this system I still believe it favours Deathstars Rod but not overwhelmingly so. Take the Ogre army I fought last time out. Hard to get points off the Gutstar and avoid it killing things. Two Ironblasters, which score easy points, are fairly hard to kill and contest table quarters. Mournfangs, bit inflexible. Sabretusks, easy points for elves (though not Chaos) but contest quarters and Line Breaker. Good army for the scoring system but yes, not perfect.
RE.Lee wrote:Looks super soft
There were actually 22 Chaos Warriors, not 16, now corrected. This makes them harder for the Swordmasters to beat. But yes, the list lacks the powerful, mobile characters that make WoC so scary. I have the speed advantage here.
Prince of Spires wrote:I think a lot will ride on magic
Quite so. Lvl 4 Shadow is always strong, Lvl 2 Death is a big threat to my Cavalry characters. The Warshrine is a wild card and his Arcane Items are good ones. Overall I have this as a +1 to me because the Warriors plus characters are solid and an IF in the wrong place could derail my fast attack.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#126 Post by RE.Lee »

That does make a difference. Those characters add some hitting power, too. Luckily you should be able to evade it until the odds favor you - M4 on stuff this expensive is a pain. At least the wizards are quite safe. Wonder how the magic duel goes?
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#127 Post by Prince of Spires »

Good points on the scoring system. Of course, just because something favours deathstars doesn't mean you have to take them. So it probably depends a bit on the players as well.
RE.Lee wrote:Luckily you should be able to evade it until the odds favor you - M4 on stuff this expensive is a pain.
I've been playing HE exclusively for too long I think. I'm used to the slowest thing I put on the table to be M5. Which makes quite a difference with M4. I keep forgetting other armies are not so lucky. :) It definitely is something to take advantage off. Especially with M9 cavalry.

Let's see how the battle goes.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#128 Post by SpellArcher »

Pre-game and Deployment

Sorcerer Lord: Enfeebling, Withering, Pendulum, Mindrazor
Sorcerer: Doom and Darkness, Fate of Bjuna

Archmage: Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds, Unforging
Mage: Fiery Convocation

Image

This is pretty much the High Elf deployment. The Phoenix is off-shot to the left. Silver Helms are by the house, opposite the Hounds & Marauders in the distance. Behind these the first RBT. Swordmasters in the middle, with both mages. Then the Eagle, Spears behind, opposite more Hounds and Chaos Warriors. The second RBT is out of shot to the right, on the base!ine.

Image

Here we see the Chaos units opposite my left. Dragon Ogres on the hill, then Marauders (plus Sorcerer) screened by Hounds. A house is just off-picture to the right.

Image

The rest of the WoC army. The aforementioned house is just visible on the left. Next the Warshrine with Warrior block (including Sorcerer Lord & BSB) to it's right, fronted by Hounds. Skullcrushers opposite my right.

Thoughts?
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#129 Post by Prince of Spires »

Your deployment look solid, nothing really spectacular. His looks pretty good though a bit riskier. The weak point for him is if you're able to split his army in two. Though you're a bit light on fast stuff to be able to pull that off completely. But if you do, then you should be in a good position. If not, then you run the risk of getting stuff charging you in the flank or running circles around you. Walk between worlds could be a real help here.

The other option you have is to play the waiting game a bit. Harder to do. And you leave more to your opponent. But you don't have to engage right away of course.

magic could hurt though. You have fairly short range spells and not a lot in the way of ranged damage. So magic will not do much for you if you do flay the waiting game. And he has a great selection of spells. Better then yours I think.

It should be an interesting match at least.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#130 Post by RE.Lee »

WoC deployment as expected, pretty symmetrical.
I think the Frostie would be more useful on the other side - versus the Crushers and Warriors. Luckily he's more than capable of redeploying.
Lets see how this goes!
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#131 Post by SpellArcher »

With the fairly concentrated army I was fielding here, I found myself with fewer drops than my opponent. I remember Seredain noting this as one of the typical changes going from the 7th Edition army book to the 8th. His solution was to decide fairly early which flank to attack and make sure his strongest units were joined up to attack it. Here I have the Frostheart and Helm Bus lined up to hit my opponent's weaker flank (Marauders) and the Swordmasters in close support. The latter's job is ultimately to kill the Warrior block but only after I've secured an advantage. I also have both General and BSB within 12" of the three units that need them.

In contrast the Dragon Ogres are outside BSB bubble and have no reliable combat support. The Marauders are not a fighting unit and the Sorcerer is not safe there. The Skullcrushers are a threat but have to negotiate 2 RBT and the Eagle before they can get to the Spears. I also have +1 to the roll to go first of course.
Prince of Spires wrote:magic could hurt though. You have fairly short range spells and not a lot in the way of ranged damage. So magic will not do much for you if you do flay the waiting game. And he has a great selection of spells. Better then yours I think.
Matt had more spells Rod, which is always good. But mine were fairly useful.


Turn One

I won the roll-off and advanced in echelon on the centre-left, taking care to keep the Phoenix within 12" of my BSB in case of a long charge from the Dragon Ogres. I fancied it but needed to be sure of holding.

Image

I got a nice middling Winds roll and took advantage of Convocation being on my support mage by throwing all my dice at it. Matt chose not to scroll and with fewer dice, failed the Dispel. Only three Chaos Warriors died but crucially, the RIP stuck of course. Shooting was also good. A Hound went down and a great shot took out one of the Skullcrushers.

Hounds rushed forwards to redirect the Helms. The Marauders followed up, the Dragon Ogres keeping pace to protect their flank from from the Frostheart but exposing their own in the process.

Image

The other Chaos units came forwards too.

Image

Fate of Bjuna was dispelled.

Edit: I believe Doom and Darkness was cast with IF on the Helms, feedback putting a wound on the Sorcerer Lord. My recollection was this happened later but looking again, I think it was here.

Edit 2: Convocation of course Remained and killed another four Warriors.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#132 Post by RE.Lee »

Solid start. Chaos does take some time before making a mark on a game but I think they'll have to fight on your terms when it comes to that.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#133 Post by Prince of Spires »

Yeah, I think you're in a good position to move forward. Getting convocation on a crucial unit this early in the game is pretty big. It either reduces the Warriors to little more then a support unit (if left unchecked for a turn) or it renders an opponent magic phase ineffective. It's a good start.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#134 Post by SpellArcher »

Indeed, a solid start.

Turn Two

The Phoenix charged the Dragon Ogres in the flank. Helms charged the Hounds.

Image

The Swordmasters edged forwards while the Eagle dropped behind them.

Image

Hand of Glory boosted the Swordmasters' Movement while Convocation killed another two Warriors. One RBT finished off the other unit of Hounds while the second put two wounds on the Skullcrushers. The Helms destroyed their Hounds and Reformed. The Frostheart put three wounds on the Dragon Ogres, so these remained Steadfast. Nothing doing though, the Break test was failed and out of BSB range of course. They were run down, the Phoenix Pursuing into the flank of the Marauders.

The Warshrine charged the Helms. The Warriors advanced and the Skullcrushers put themselves between these and the Swordmasters.

Image

A big phase saw Mindrazor on the Warshrine scrolled (we mistakenly thought that as a Chariot, it would cause Impact Hits). Convocation was finally dispelled. The Phoenix beat the Marauders but these held. The Warshrine though broke and ran, the Helms making the roll to Reform rather than Pursue.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#135 Post by RE.Lee »

Well, Chaos crumbles as expected. You get to pick your fights here and it shows. Normally I'd say those Warriors could cause some trouble, but with the Phoenix looming thats unlikely to happen.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#136 Post by Prince of Spires »

starting to look pretty good for you. Chaos has some trouble keeping his line together and supporting / backing up his units. The warshrine is a good example here for instance. It sounds like he relied on getting Mindrazor cast for that charge to be successful. If he would have managed to get another unit in there he might have done some damage to the helm unit.

Another positive is that you managed to take out his redirectors while you still have an eagle flying around somewhere.

I am wondering if in your turn doing the SH combat first and overrunning into the Dragon ogres would have been a better idea. Now you relied on the dragon ogres failing a steadfast LD test. It wasn't an automatic pass (as seen), but getting the SH in there would have made it a done deal. It would have also managed to get the SH out of most charge ranges and still would have given you a reform on the helms to get good positioning.

It turned out all right for you. But looking at chaos T2, he could have charged at least one other unit into the helms, potentially even 2. Which would have given a very different outcome.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#137 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:Normally I'd say those Warriors could cause some trouble, but with the Phoenix looming thats unlikely to happen.
Matt has to get the Warriors moving RE. The Marauders should hold on Steadfast for a while.
Prince of Spires wrote:I am wondering if in your turn doing the SH combat first and overrunning into the Dragon ogres would have been a better idea. Now you relied on the dragon ogres failing a steadfast LD test.
Maybe Rod. There's a danger the Overrun leaves the Helms short of the Dragon Ogres. In general, you get a Frostheart into an enemy within 12" of your BSB, he will hold as long as you like and grind that enemy down. The only problem I can see is Mindrazor but I have a scroll plus the DO's should be one model down before they get to attack and I have a Ward save. If I do make the Overrun, the Dragon Ogres will Flee away from the Helms, which means I can't then Pursue with the Phoenix into the Marauders.
Prince of Spires wrote:It turned out all right for you. But looking at chaos T2, he could have charged at least one other unit into the helms, potentially even 2. Which would have given a very different outcome.
I'm pretty sure the only unit that could have been in range was the Marauders, if the Dragon Ogres had passed their Break test. If they had got in, they would have squared up to the Helms to maximise with the Warshrine stuck on the end. If he doesn't IF Mindrazor I scroll it and kill about 6 Marauders, holding easily on re-rollable Ld 10. He may well break in my next turn because by then I've killed enough to negate Steadfast and I can throw the Eagle into the Warshrine's flank for +2 CR. If not, I kill even more in his turn so by the time he attacks again Mindrazor is much less of an issue.

What if he IF's Mindrazor? His General is probably within 12" which I think means he counts as Strength 9. My characters are then in lots of trouble. This is why the Match-up is only +1 I feel. But to get to that point, the Dragon Ogres have to hold (1-in-3 they don't), the Marauders have to make the charge (about 50-50), he has to roll at least 6 Power Dice (likely but not a sure thing at all) and he has to IF Mindrazor (1-in-4) then suck up the Miscast. A reasonable risk to run I feel.

At some point in the game he will get cast Mindrazor and if he IF's it it will give him some leverage in the battle. Because he didn't, I scrolled and am then pretty much in a game-winning position. A S9 Warshrine is a real danger to my characters but no Impact Hits of course and I'm still maybe winning or at worst holding on Steadfast, with my turn to come.

Overall I think Overrunning with the Helms would probably have been safer for them but not doing so gave me strong odds of cracking his whole army. It's the kind of aggressive move Seredain would have made. Usually I'm safety-first but running the Cavalry Prince army, I'm finding it does encourage you to be aggressive.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#138 Post by SpellArcher »

Turn Three

Helms charged Marauders. Magic was pretty much neutralised with the aid of the scroll but the RBT finished off the wounded Skullcrusher.

Image

Lots of Marauders died (including the Sorcerer) and they duly broke to be run down.

Matt responded by throwing the depleted Warriors into the Swordmasters and the last Skullcrusher into the Spears. Mindrazor on the Warriors failed to cast by 1! I braced myself for the Chaos BSB's attacks but these were of course nerfed to high heaven by World Dragon because of his magic sword.

Image

The SM's killed lots of Warriors for little reply and the latter broke and were caught, including the Sorcerer Lord of course. We then ran out of time! This was pretty much my fault as I'd turned up late after a 2 1/2 hr drive. Accordingly I offered to assume a lost combat for the Spears without rolling dice, though this was questionable. I managed to fail both their Steadfast break test and the Gleaming Pennant re-roll!

Image

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#139 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:Accordingly I offered to assume a lost combat for the Spears without rolling dice, though this was questionable. I managed to fail both their Steadfast break test and the Gleaming Pennant re-roll!
It goes to show; No good deed goes unpunished... ;)

Congrats on the win. If you would have had more time (even with the spears no longer on the table) then I think you could have taken more points off him.

It reads like you had more of a plan going into the battle then your opponent did. Which led to several combats that favoured you and left your opponent to scramble to gain any points.

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#140 Post by RE.Lee »

That was perhaps inevitable - Chaos just didn't seem to be able to make things go their way. Your play didn't make this any easier for them. Congrats on the win!
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#141 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys.

Yeah, Matt deployed fairly sensibly on the face of it but his weaker flank couldn't cope with the fast attack from my best units. Magic was a wild card but I coped, with the aid of the scroll. I think though, that I should have defaulted one spell to Drain Magic, as being able to remove Mindrazor in my turn could have proved crucial. I always feel happier facing WoC armies without those hard, fast characters as we have a much better chance of establishing board control then. As it was, the combats were indeed on my terms and Matt just couldn't get his attack moving.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#142 Post by SpellArcher »

Game Two
Chaos Dwarfs


Sorcerer-prophet, Lvl 4 Hashut, Stuff
Daemonsmith Sorcerer, Lvl 2 Death, Scroll
Infernal Castellan, BSB, Stuff
Hobgoblin Khan, Giant Wolf, Stuff

30 Infernal Guard, Full Command
30 Hobgoblins, Bows, Full Command

Deathshrieker Rocket
Deathshrieker Rocket
Deathshrieker Rocket
Iron Daemon, Skullcracker

Hellcannon

Thoughts on the match-up?
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#143 Post by Prince of Spires »

First thought is that I know next to nothing about Chaos Dwarves. So I'll fall back on what it appears like on the face of it.

It looks fairly shooting heavy, with the Hellcannon, Deathshriekers and the regular archers. The main worry is probably for the swordmasters, who can take a lot of damage going in. On the other hand, this is a chance for the spears to shine. The should do fine against archers. And I don't know what they do, but they should hold up infernal guard a bit I guess. Keeping the Phoenix in one piece will be a challenge. Terrain is your friend here.

On the plus side, you have a relatively fast army. Which should let you deal with some of the stuff on the table that could cause you hurt. And the BoTWD should at least help against the Hellcannon I think (assuming it's magical here...).

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#144 Post by RE.Lee »

Though I own Tamurkhan, I've never seen the Legion of Azgorth on the table.

Theory-hammer suggests its a much more tricky opponent - all those war machines mean trouble, especially since there's so much redundancy. Not sure if they cause magical attacks?

On the other hand they're still Dwarfs and will have a hard time getting a big win.

The Hobgoblin hero on a wolf rides on his own?
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#145 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys.
Prince of Spires wrote:It looks fairly shooting heavy, with the Hellcannon, Deathshriekers and the regular archers.
Exactly Rod. It's a gunline and both the wizards are also Engineers, so two 'war machines' per turn can re-roll a die, especially nasty on the Hellcannon. Essentially it's a Dwarf army with magic. Combat-wise it has the Stubborn HW&Sh block and the Skullcracker, with the Hobgoblins providing emergency Steadfast backup, so a bit thin. The Khan is primarily a redirector RE, he's 50-60pts or so.
Prince of Spires wrote:The main worry is probably for the swordmasters, who can take a lot of damage going in.
Yep. I'm coming round to the idea that Shield of Saphery really needs to be cranked up for these to be any good. Lions or PG might be better here. The Helms (and especially the Prince) are a threat but the re-rolling Hellcannon, combined with magic that is great against them makes any approach dangerous. The Skullcracker does 2d6+2 S8 Impact hits, so I can't afford to take a charge from it. He can't shoot everything at once but there's a big danger he neuters the fast stuff quickly before I can get the Infantry in.
RE.Lee wrote:Not sure if they cause magical attacks?
The Hellcannon is Magical but the Deathshriekers aren't, so they're dangerous to the Swordmasters, especially because I lack Ironcurse Icon. Again, any characters in there are safe from sniping spells but the cavalry guys are very vulnerable. I can't even deploy these with the Swordmasters for protection because the Deathshriekers have an alternate mode where they target a single model at S8 D6 wounds. Ho hum.

I think this is a -1 match-up, maybe -2.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#146 Post by RE.Lee »

Oh my, re-read how Deathshriekers work and they've got some serious versatility! Not sure how the Hellbound rule works - it seems to affect the Iron Daemon and the Hellcannon (at least) but is not mentioned anywhere in the army list from what I can see. This would be crucial as it grants magical attacks.
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#147 Post by Prince of Spires »

It sounds even a bit worse then I estimated. If you want to bring a counter to a cavalry prince army, it sounds like this is a good option... I hope you manage to get first turn. You don't want to hang around and get shot for too many turns. And you want to go for target saturation as soon as possible. If you go in piece by piece, everything will get shot to bits.

Good luck with this one...

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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#148 Post by SpellArcher »

RE.Lee wrote:Oh my, re-read how Deathshriekers work and they've got some serious versatility! Not sure how the Hellbound rule works - it seems to affect the Iron Daemon and the Hellcannon (at least) but is not mentioned anywhere in the army list from what I can see. This would be crucial as it grants magical attacks.
Hellcannon have Magical attacks by default RE. The War Machines (and Iron Daemon) don't but Hellbound is an optional 25pt upgrade to give these. My opponent had little reason to do it though. The only issue is Hexwraith-spam and this wasn't the ETC. Hellcannon and spells should deal with most Ethereals quite nicely.
Prince of Spires wrote: It sounds even a bit worse then I estimated. If you want to bring a counter to a cavalry prince army, it sounds like this is a good option... I hope you manage to get first turn. You don't want to hang around and get shot for too many turns. And you want to go for target saturation as soon as possible. If you go in piece by piece, everything will get shot to bits.

Good luck with this one...
Cheers Rod.

:)

There's a reason Seredain strengthened the bare-bones bus I ran at this event with more bodies and characters. I suspect a 20-strong unit with World Dragon would run straight over my opponent's list but again, this wasn't the ETC.


Deployment and Pre-game

Archmage: Apotheosis, Hand of Glory, Unforging.
Mage: Soul Quench

Sorcerer-prophet: Breath of Hatred, Curse of Hashut, Ash Storm, Flames of Azgorh
Daemonsmith: Spirit Leech, Soul Blight

My spells were meh, Rob's excellent.

Rob was no fool and it quickly became clear that he was cornering in the approved manner. Skullcracker just out of shot to the left, Khan I think had Vanguarded forward:

Image

This left me with the usual choice. Attack like crazy or hide. If I go in there is no room for error and quite likely I just get shot to bits anyway. Also, several things Rob explained about his army didn't gel with what I remembered but it would have slowed the game to a crawl if I kept challenging stuff and would have made it zero fun to play, not my aim for this event. So I decided to hide, keep the game good-natured and treat it as a learning experience. I might get lucky and grab some table quarters and other points. At worst I would sit down with the book at home and find out exactly how Chaos Dwarfs worked, to arm me for next time. I've always found this is the best way to learn the rules for an army you're unfamiliar with.

So these were my fast units, deployed in the opposite corner:

Image

Infantry and such more central, one mage in each block. Second RBT out of shot to the right:

Image
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RE.Lee
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#149 Post by RE.Lee »

SpellArcher wrote: Rob was no fool and it quickly became clear that he was cornering in the approved manner.
No surprise here! Its going to be a rather straightforward fight. Your chances are limited, but if you manage to breach his castle things might get interesting.
cheers, Lee

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Prince of Spires
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Re: Cavalry Prince Reloaded

#150 Post by Prince of Spires »

probably the smartest move for a tournament. Just because your opponent wants you to do something doesn't mean you should. I think I would have chosen the offensive option, but that's because I'm a silly, overly aggressive player most of the time. You're lacking a fast unit and some extra bodies (as you mention) on the SH bus.

With another fast flyer and a bigger bus you could have gotten to the artillery reasonably intact and dealt with it allright (even if it was only by preventing it from shooting for a turn). As it stands now, your infantry would take too many casualties going in I think.

Rod
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