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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
You're lacking a fast unit and some extra bodies (as you mention) on the SH bus.

I agree Rod but there's another partial fix I'll discuss a bit later.

RE.Lee wrote:
Your chances are limited,

Sadly so RE!


Turn One

My opponent, having finished deploying first, won the roll-off. The Khan trotted forwards whilst the Skullcracker ground towards the tower. Magic was ineffective due to range. Shooting put a wound on the Eagle and killed a couple of Spears.

Image

On the far left, the Helms advanced at speed, the Phoenix more slowly to gain cover from the building. The Eagle flew away from Rob's corner. Apotheosis healed it while the RBT failed to dent the Skullcracker.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Turn Two

The Skullcracker made it's way around the tower while the Khan raced into the wood at bottom right. Magic again did little, while shooting killed more Spears and the right RBT (so gaining the First Blood bonus).

The Helms moved alongside the large building at top left. The remaining RBT, boosted by Hand of Glory, put a wound on the Khan.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:34 am 
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Apotheosis really helps in this type of battle. In many situations that wound on the eagle wouldn't be worth the bother. But it's going to be a close battle, and then every unit counts. And the eagle isn't going to do a lot of serious redirecting. So preserving him is well worth the effort. A pity about losing the RBT. Not so much for that single VP. But more because it limits your ranged options.

It's going to be tense...

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
A pity about losing the RBT

Yeah, I kind of had these down as peripheral (given I only had two) but they were golden in the third game.

Turn Three

The Khan charged the Spears in the flank, while the Skullcracker rumbled menacingly closer.

Image

The infantry moved out in support.

Image

Magic and shooting were ineffective, partly due to the Spears being in combat and range issues. The Khan broke on static res and was run down by the Spears.

Image

I pretty much held station apart from the Spears heading to the right as a decoy. The RBT managed a couple of wounds on the Skullcracker.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Turn Four

Ignoring the Spears, the Skullcracker made a long move to the left that just failed to hit the Swordmasters. This was actually not correct, as it has random movement but not Random Movement, as was played. The most important difference being that it's rules do not allow it to turn when using the extra movement, it has to move directly forwards.

Image

The Infantry advanced into spell range.

Image

The poor Spears were duly hammered in both Magic and Shooting phases but passed the Panic test. They kept heading for the corner. The Swordmasters sought cover in the building. This time the Skullcracker proved impervious to my ranged attacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:30 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
This was actually not correct, as it has random movement but not Random Movement, as was played. The most important difference being that it's rules do not allow it to turn when using the extra movement, it has to move directly forwards.

You've got to love the consistency in the rules...

It's not looking very pretty for you at the moment I fear. It's going to be hard to get a lot of points in those last two turns. And you've lost a few along the way already. Still, good playing so far, given what you're up against and your options.

I'm rooting for the spears who, from all appearances, have been send on a suicide mission...

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
You've got to love the consistency in the rules...

They really are quite different here Rod. Fundamentally, it's M6 with Pivot and no Marching. It can move faster but does this by adding 2D6 to the 6 and must move directly forwards with no prior turn. This is the only way it can Charge.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It's not looking very pretty for you at the moment I fear. It's going to be hard to get a lot of points in those last two turns. And you've lost a few along the way already. Still, good playing so far, given what you're up against and your options.

Thank you. Yes, a bit of a grind.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm rooting for the spears who, from all appearances, have been send on a suicide mission...

Their usual job is to not die, which they are fairly good at. But at this tournament they kind of drew the short straw.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:58 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
They really are quite different here

My main point was that it's a pity that GW has several different versions of the same rule. And that Random Movement is different from random movement. It would have been easier and nicer if they simply reused the same rule for both.
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm rooting for the spears who, from all appearances, have been send on a suicide mission...

Their usual job is to not die, which they are fairly good at. But at this tournament they kind of drew the short straw.

Which is why I'm rooting for them. You've got to love a good underdog story. ;)

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
My main point was that it's a pity that GW has several different versions of the same rule. And that Random Movement is different from random movement. It would have been easier and nicer if they simply reused the same rule for both.

It's a powerful rule of course Rod. The machine has T7 and 7 wounds. Maybe those would need to be reduced slightly to balance out the extra power.


Turn Five

The Chaos Dwarf Infantry garrisoned the central building while the Skullcracker assaulted the one on the left.

Image

More damage from magic and shooting on the Spears, another Panic test passed. Eagle and remaining RBT destroyed. The combat was played wrongly, with the Skullcracker both causing Impact Hits and Thunderstomping. The latter is only available after the initial combat round. So the Swordmasters were wiped out but the Archmage passed his Break test. He then left the building.


Turn Six

All guns were aimed at the Spears (who had picked up a 6+ Shield of Saphery Ward). Several dreadful salvoes later, they failed their Panic test. But passed the Gleaming Pennant re-roll!

Image

2-10

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Well, that was perhaps the way it was meant to be :wink:

You put up a fight and the heroic Spearmen did their best but the match-up was just really unforgiving!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:40 am 
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Go Spears! A suitably heroic end to a heroic and uphill battle...

Those last two turns were pretty brutal.
SpellArcher wrote:
The combat was played wrongly, with the Skullcracker both causing Impact Hits and Thunderstomping. The latter is only available after the initial combat round. So the Swordmasters were wiped out but the Archmage passed his Break test. He then left the building.

I think the combat in that case was played very wrongly. There's no impact hits when assaulting a building. So I'm thinking the SM would have easily survived this assault and perhaps even have managed some serious damage on the Skullcracker. Wouldn't have made a huge difference on the outcome of the battle. But every point counts in a tournament setting.

In hindsight, knowing the defensive approach would result in a 10-2 loss, would you have picked a different strategy? For instance, go for the all out attack and see where that ends up? Or do you still think this was all that could have been gotten out of the battle?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
There's no impact hits when assaulting a building.

Pg 128! Thank you Rod, live and learn!

Prince of Spires wrote:
So I'm thinking the SM would have easily survived this assault and perhaps even have managed some serious damage on the Skullcracker.

The problem is S5 v T7. But yes, they would probably have survived the game.

RE.Lee wrote:
You put up a fight and the heroic Spearmen did their best but the match-up was just really unforgiving!

It was RE and I don't think a direct assault would have produced a better result. While it wasn't a lot of fun, it was less stressful and tiring than it might have been and I learned a lot after a good read-up at home later.


Game Three

Slann, Life, BSB, Re-roll Dispels, Channelling Staff, 3 x Channels
Gor-rok
Chief, Ripperdactyl, Light Armour, Spear, Shield, Egg of Quango
Priest, Heavens, Dispel Scroll
Priest, Heavens, Cube of Darkness

30 Saurus, Spears, Full Command
10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelin & Shield
10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelin & Shield
10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelin & Shield

26 Temple Guard, Full Command
Salamander
Salamander

Thoughts on the match-up?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:54 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
There's no impact hits when assaulting a building.

Pg 128! Thank you Rod, live and learn!

Buildings aren't used frequently enough to know all their rules inside out in my experience. I had to double check as well to be sure. It's a pity, since you can do lots of nice stuff with buildings if the rules are right. But in my experience they are all too often simply used as impassible terrain.

The LM army looks interesting. A lot of magic. That will start hurting if your opponent gets a couple of big fases early on in the game and you don't manage to deal with it fast. Especially since you will want to dispell throne each turn but that leaves you open to a lot of magic missiles and hexes.

The SM will not like the skinks very much. On the other hand, the SH bus should have no trouble with them. They would be my main worry, together with the salamanders early on. The temple guard should hold back a bit, since the LM player will want to protect his Slann, and the Saurus you can deal with. But the skinks can both hurt a lot with their shooting vs your T3 models if you let them. And they can mess up any battle plan you have by simply standing in the way.

I think there is a good case here to run the prince and / or BSB solo out of the bus. It will potentially open them up to a lot of shooting / magic. But if you can deal with multiple skink / salamander units at the same time then it's a risk worth taking compared to having to deal with them one at a time. That brings the risk of spending 6 turns only fighting chaff while your army dies around you.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:36 am 
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Good Lizardmen list, though I'm surprised there's no blowpipes on the Skinks. Its a powerful option against monsters.

Your armour save if going to be a problem for them, though you'll need to be wary of the Temple Guard.

Key is to isolate the Saurus/TG, chase away the light guys and coordinate a late charge to grab points. I think you've got the speed to do this!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The LM army looks interesting. A lot of magic. That will start hurting if your opponent gets a couple of big fases early on in the game and you don't manage to deal with it fast. Especially since you will want to dispell throne each turn but that leaves you open to a lot of magic missiles and hexes.

This is true Rod but a key factor here is that the only ranged damage I need to worry about is Dwellers and whatever the Priests can get from Heavens. The rest is pretty much buffs, which gives me a little leeway outside of major combats. This is why the Siggy Slann is more popular because he hurts you from Turn 1. On the other hand, getting spells past double scroll, an extra Dispel die and a Slann who re-rolls failed Dispels is definitely a challenge.

RE.Lee wrote:
Good Lizardmen list, though I'm surprised there's no blowpipes on the Skinks. Its a powerful option against monsters.

Jav and shield has it's points but yes, I too prefer blowpipes RE.

Essentially, this is a full-on grinding list. It gets those blocks in and with a Life Slann and the Dispel cover it just outlasts whatever the enemy's got. The support clears the way for this. Thing is though, Seredain played these kind of lists to death, Cavalry Prince outmaneouvres them more often than not. This is a +1 match-up because of speed advantage.

As an aside, Liam and I were on Table 2. The Gold medal was likely gone but a big win could still see me onto the podium.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Pre-game and. Deployment

Slann: Throne, Flesh, Regrowth, Dwellers
Priest: Curse of Midnight Wind
Priest: Iceshard Blizzard

Archmage: Hand, Unforging, Convocation
Mage: Soul Quench

Unfortunately, as mentioned earlier, I do not have pictures of this game. So I'll do my best with words. It helps that weren't that many units and that the deployments were fairly clear.

The flying Chief was on my far left, then one unit of Skinks and one Salamander. Liam put his two blocks in the middle, the Temple Guard were the left-most from my point of view (with the Slann of course). Gor-rok was in the Saurus. The two Priests lurked behind, one unit of Skinks in front. The second Salamander and third Skinks held the centre-right.

I refused my left, with one RBT centre-left on the baseline. The Eagle went down centrally, opposite the Temple Guard with the Spears (and Mage) well behind. The Swordmasters (with Archmage) were slightly more advanced, facing off against the Saurus. Then my second RBT centre-right on the baseline. Next the Helm Bus and finally the Phoenix on the right.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:16 am 
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It sounds like a deployment you can work with. The SH bus has the space to run down the flank, half of the units you only have to worry about later in the game, when a lot should have been decided already. The SM should be ok, with not that much shooting opposite them.

As for magic, I think you have got a lucky break with the spells. Main worry, as always of course, is dwellers. But otherwise he doesn't have that many spells to really force you to move. That could have been a lot worse. And your spells are pretty good. Convocation, as always, is a very useful spell to have vs a magic heavy list with a couple of blocks. Unforging is great against the Slann. And the rest are very nice utility spells.

All in all, I think you're in a good position. Getting first turn would be a nice bonus, since it would allow you to maximise some of the advantages. Otherwise, your opponent can make a start in repositioning especially his right flank (your left).

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
As for magic, I think you have got a lucky break with the spells.

Hmm. The Life spells are pretty good I think, in fact I think Liam rolled Regrowth instead of Awakening, I'll edit. Granted he lacks lightning bolts but Curse and Iceshard are both decent, with a sting in the tail.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Convocation

Stay tuned Rod!


Turn One

I won the roll-off and advanced in echelon, The Frostheart leading on the right, followed by the Helms and then, further back, the Swordmasters. I rolled middling Winds but had left the Archmage a bit far back. Frustrated by the last game I went a bit mad and chucked six dice at Convocation on the central skinks. Yes I IF'd. Yes I Cascaded my Archmage.

#-o

So I was left with a level 1 vs the Magic Phase from Hell. One thought was in my head. "I must hold onto my scroll."

Shooting happily removed the flying Chief and left one member of the offending Skinks alive.

The Lizardmen Marched straight forwards towards my centre and left. On the right they stayed put. Throne of Vines was dispelled but Curse of the Midnight Wind went off on my Phoenix. I'd forgotten this inflicted an additional D6 S4 hits vs Flyers but no harm done here. Contrasting with Skink shooting which promptly put 4 wounds on him. Arrgh!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:19 am 
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Ouch!

That was a rather brash thing to do and you sure suffered the consequences. With the Phoenix on its last legs I'm not sure there's much you can do to save this game.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Indeed RE, it's looking grim.

Turn Two

The Frostheart charged the offending Priest to his front, while the Helms charged a Salamander. Both Held. The Swordmasters stayed put to postpone their clash with the Saurus. I skipped magic to avoid any risk of a Miscast endangering my scroll. Shooting finished off the central Skink and weakened those on my right who had shot up my Phoenix. Both he and the Helms destroyed their foes and Reformed to face the centre.

Once again the Lizardmen opposite my left and centre advanced. Flesh to Stone went up on the Temple Guard but Throne was dispelled. Shooting achieved little.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:16 am 
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That was a painful turn 1. Perhaps avoidable. But also not that likely. So a bit unlucky.

Though it must be said that apart from the Archmage taking a holiday in the warp and the wounds on the phoenix you're doing pretty well. You've taken out his right flank and should be able to start dealing with the rest at your pleasure. You should be able to deal with his saurus while the rest of his army is still slogging along. And you still have your scroll, which you can either use to help in some crucial combats or to stop a big dwellers cast. And the phoenix is still useful as long as it's alive. Just don't charge it into the front of something. Flanks or rears for crucial combats should be ok.

So, while you're still a bit behind, you're not out yet.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Interesting take Rod! I do feel Liam made a slight error in buffing the Temple Guard rather than the Saurus. Maybe he was concerned about a long Swordmaster charge on the Slann's unit. A lot depends on whether he can IF a big spell through or draw the scroll too soon.

Turn Three

Helms flank charged the Saurus, the Swordmasters frontally but only the former made it in. The Phoenix flew behind the Lizardman centre whilst the Eagle redirected the Temple Guard. Again, no magic but shooting finished off the Skinks to my right. Gor-Rok chose not to Make Way and the Helms killed several Saurus, who held easily.

Temple Guard charged the Eagle. Skirmishers approached my left RBT. A big phase saw Throne of Vines go up but the subsequent Flesh to Stone on the Saurus was scrolled. A bad dispel roll saw Iceshard go off on the Frostheart (appropriately enough) but thankfully the Attribute failed to wound him. Shooting put a wound on the RBT and the Eagle was despatched, the Temple Guard Overrunning just short of the Spears. A few more Saurus died.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:36 am 
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Unfortunate about the SM not making it in (depending on how long the charge was of course). That could have made a difference by letting you get through them in a turn and then having a chance to take on the temple guard later on. The Lizardmen turn was fairly painless though, which is a good thing. Yes, Throne went up. And yes, you lost your scroll. But you can easily dispell Throne in your turn (since you probably won't cast anything anyway). And it didn't have a lot of impact. And you got a bit lucky with not suffering a wound on the phoenix.

It depends a bit on how many Saurus are left but it could be worth charging him into the rear of the saurus, take the chance and see if you can take them out in your turn. 30 is a lot to chew through and you could use help there. That would also be the point where I'd mentally add up points a bit and see if it's worth trying to take out the temple guard or if you should just leave it at this and try to preserve points.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:29 am 
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Hanging in there, I see. Like Rod said, the Lizardmen did little damage in their turn - their combat units are slow on their magic was controlled well (though at the cost of a scroll). You have little time to strike, as their advantage should be showing more and more. Lizardmen are really good at attrition combat, while HE - not so much!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Unfortunate about the SM not making it in (depending on how long the charge was of course). That could have made a difference by letting you get through them in a turn and then having a chance to take on the temple guard later on. The Lizardmen turn was fairly painless though, which is a good thing. Yes, Throne went up. And yes, you lost your scroll. But you can easily dispell Throne in your turn (since you probably won't cast anything anyway). And it didn't have a lot of impact. And you got a bit lucky with not suffering a wound on the phoenix.

I think the Saurus would probably have held the initial Swordmaster charge Rod but perhaps not. I forgot to dispel Throne in my turn! D6 S4 hits shouldn't really get a wound through on the Phoenix but you never know.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It depends a bit on how many Saurus are left but it could be worth charging him into the rear of the saurus, take the chance and see if you can take them out in your turn. 30 is a lot to chew through and you could use help there. That would also be the point where I'd mentally add up points a bit and see if it's worth trying to take out the temple guard or if you should just leave it at this and try to preserve points.

Exactly.

RE.Lee wrote:
Hanging in there, I see. Like Rod said, the Lizardmen did little damage in their turn - their combat units are slow on their magic was controlled well (though at the cost of a scroll). You have little time to strike, as their advantage should be showing more and more. Lizardmen are really good at attrition combat, while HE - not so much!

Yes RE, I can't afford to get stuck in combat too long.

Turn Four

Swordmasters charged Saurus. I thought hard about the rear charge with the Frostheart. Yes he would probably survive the Saurus attacks but if Gor-rok Made Way he could be in trouble. In the end I went for it, trusting the SM's to make it in and pin the Lizardman Hero in place. Both made it in. No magic, RBT's did a number on the left skinks. Lots of Saurus were chopped up, the Swordmasters carving their way through Gor-rok in one round. A really low Break test roll kept things going though.

Temple Guard charged Spears, who Held. With Throne still up, Flesh to Stone on the Saurus was dispelled but Regrowth got through, raising four or five bodies. Shooting finished off the wounded RBT. The Spears lost combat but held on Steadfast 8. Somehow the Saurus survived another round.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:00 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Unfortunate about the SM not making it in (depending on how long the charge was of course). That could have made a difference by letting you get through them in a turn and then having a chance to take on the temple guard later on. The Lizardmen turn was fairly painless though, which is a good thing. Yes, Throne went up. And yes, you lost your scroll. But you can easily dispell Throne in your turn (since you probably won't cast anything anyway). And it didn't have a lot of impact. And you got a bit lucky with not suffering a wound on the phoenix.

I think the Saurus would probably have held the initial Swordmaster charge Rod but perhaps not. I forgot to dispel Throne in my turn! D6 S4 hits shouldn't really get a wound through on the Phoenix but you never know.

The probably would have held vs the SM. But now by the time they charge in the SM would have had 2 combat rounds already. And they now are stuck for another turn. It would have freed up stuff in your T4 I think. Which would have either let you reposition them to support the spears or get out of everyones way.

A shame about forgetting to dispel Throne. The D6 S4 hits should be no issue. But if it's a risk you can avoid then it's best not to run it :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Turn Four

Swordmasters charged Saurus. I thought hard about the rear charge with the Frostheart. Yes he would probably survive the Saurus attacks but if Gor-rok Made Way he could be in trouble. In the end I went for it, trusting the SM's to make it in and pin the Lizardman Hero in place. Both made it in. No magic, RBT's did a number on the left skinks. Lots of Saurus were chopped up, the Swordmasters carving their way through Gor-rok in one round. A really low Break test roll kept things going though.

Temple Guard charged Spears, who Held. With Throne still up, Flesh to Stone on the Saurus was dispelled but Regrowth got through, raising four or five bodies. Shooting finished off the wounded RBT. The Spears lost combat but held on Steadfast 8. Somehow the Saurus survived another round.

Small point, you can't actually make way when you're in B2B with an enemy model (see p100 BRB). So the phoenix was not in any danger of Gor-Rok

A shame about them sticking around on their breaktest. would have been nice to get rid of them. It's getting tighter. LM have temple guard + slann + skink priests, saurus and a salamander left. While you have Frostheart, SH bus + prince and BSB, Spears and SM left. Let's hear the rest :)

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The probably would have held vs the SM. But now by the time they charge in the SM would have had 2 combat rounds already. And they now are stuck for another turn. It would have freed up stuff in your T4 I think. Which would have either let you reposition them to support the spears or get out of everyones way.

Yes, it would definitely have helped Rod.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Small point, you can't actually make way when you're in B2B with an enemy model (see p100 BRB). So the phoenix was not in any danger of Gor-Rok

When deciding on the Phoenix charge the Swordmasters had yet to roll charge dice. So I wasn't sure if they would make contact to pin the dude.


Turn Five

Nothing to move here! The RBT finished off the Skinks I believe. Finally the Saurus went down and my units Reformed to face the Temple Guard. The Spears broke and fled the field though, the TG Reforming.

Liam thought better of tackling my victorious units and instead headed for the surviving RBT. A small magic phase saw no wounds on the Phoenix.


Turn Six

Nothing to see here! I was out of charge range and shooting was pointless, we needed to finish too!

TG charged and killed the RBT but magic again was ineffective.


14-7

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:09 am 
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Final turns sometimes are that way, that very little actually happens.

Congrats on the win. It didn't look good when you lost your general and main magic caster to the first spell of the game vs a very magically strong opponent. I think you played well and managed to keep your opponent from capitalising on this. For the amount of points your opponent had invested in magic he didn't get a lot cast. And nothing crucial at least.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:05 am 
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Quite surprising result! Your opponent didn't push with that magic, it happens to me a lot too, but with his spell selection one would think he'd fare better. Thanks for the report and congrats on the win!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:51 am 
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Thanks guys.

The Lizardman magic phase carried two main threats. Firstly Dwellers. The reason this wasn't cast for the whole game was that Liam wasn't willing to without having Throne of Vines up for Miscast protection and I kept dispelling that. He should probably have risked casting Dwellers unprotected once things started to go wrong. The second threat was Flesh to Stone at a crucial time. But again, I was able to stop that with the aid of the scroll. I think I was slightly lucky and some bad dice rolls could have rendered the Saurus combat more difficult.

The other enemy weakness was speed. Depending on Infantry blocks is OK but in practice you have to bring reliable ranged threat too as you may not get into crucial combats fast enough to exploit your grinding power. Liam also ran into a classic Seredain dilemma. To keep advancing into combat with the Temple Guard, or give that up and turn them so the Slann could try to stop the faster High Elf wing with Dwellers. Give the enemy difficult choices, as they say.

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