Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

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Jallo
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Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#1 Post by Jallo »

I'm playing an escalation tournament with two friends and will appreciate feedback for improvements. They'll be playing bretonnian, and skaven.
We've already played the 500 point games, and I won one 20-0 and had one draw. Because the rules we defined, we have to take the everything from the smaller points on the next points, and may upgrade. i.e. I bring the lore master, but I may, equip him with BoH in the 1500 (or not) but he has to come. The 500 points went really well. I wiped out the Skaven by turn 3 (he wasn't rolling well) mainly with the reavers and some well placed hexes on his gutter runners, and turned back and flanked his clanrats with two heroes, and because they'd taken some magic missiles from the lore master, they broke. The Bretonnians were very lucky. Trebuchet took out four reavers, the fifth broke, and five yeomen shot two other reavers, and the remaining three broke, all on turn one. They ran off the battlefield. I places LM + archers outside the range of trebuchet, so he wen't in with his knight errants, but I basically took them out with my magic missiles, and life leach before they reached me. He had one standing in the end, so I didn't get too many points, and we ended in a draw.

I wanted to try the loremaster as there has been some discussion on if was worth his points compared to AM. I definitely feel he was. He really dominated the magic phases and dealt a lot of damage (they brought none, and a lvl. 1. life caster respectably) and when he was charged, he challenged the knight errant champion, keeping himself safe from harm. I just got the phoenix model, so I want to bring to try it out (not necessarily with Caradryan). I have access to all other HE models (I think).

Any comments are appreciated.

500 Pts - High Elves Roster

Total Roster Cost: 500

Loremaster of Hoeth (1#, 230 pts)
1 Loremaster of Hoeth, 230 pts

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 80 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80 pts = 5 * 16

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 80 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80 pts = 5 * 16

Archers (10#, 110 pts)
10 Archers, 110 pts = 10 * 10 (base cost 10) + Musician Mus 10

1500 Pts - High Elves Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1493

Loremaster of Hoeth (1#, 330 pts)
1 Loremaster of Hoeth, 230 pts
1 Sword of Anti-Heroes, 30 pts
1 Shield of the Merwyrm, 15 pts
1 Book of Hoeth, 55 pts
1 The Lores of Battle Magic, 0 pts

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts = 5 * 19 (base cost 16 + Bow 3)

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts = 5 * 19 (base cost 16 + Bow 3)

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts = 5 * 19 (base cost 16 + Bow 3)

Sword Masters of Hoeth (16#, 288 pts)
15 Swordmasters of Hoeth, 215 pts = 15 * 13 (base cost 13) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Bladelord, 23 pts
1 Banner of the World Dragon, 50 pts

Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard (2#, 420 pts)
1 Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard, 170 pts
1 Ashtari, 250 pts

Archers (16#, 170 pts)
16 Archers, 170 pts = 16 * 10 (base cost 10) + Musician Mus 10


2500 Pts - High Elves Roster

Loremaster of Hoeth (1#, 330 pts)
1 Loremaster of Hoeth, 330 pts (Level 2 Wizard; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Always Strikes First; Deflect Shots; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages)
1 Sword of Anti-Heroes
1 Shield of the Merwyrm
1 Book of Hoeth

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts (Hand Weapon; Spear; Bow; Light Armour; Always Strikes First; Fast Cavalry; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Vanguard; Volley Fire)
5 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts (Hand Weapon; Spear; Bow; Light Armour; Always Strikes First; Fast Cavalry; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Vanguard; Volley Fire)
5 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts (Hand Weapon; Spear; Bow; Light Armour; Always Strikes First; Fast Cavalry; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Vanguard; Volley Fire)
5 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Ellyrian Reavers (5#, 95 pts)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 95 pts (Hand Weapon; Spear; Bow; Light Armour; Always Strikes First; Fast Cavalry; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Vanguard; Volley Fire)
5 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Sword Masters of Hoeth (16#, 288 pts)
15 Swordmasters of Hoeth, 288 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Always Strikes First; Deflect Shots; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages; Always Strikes Last)
1 Bladelord (Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Always Strikes First; Deflect Shots; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages; Always Strikes Last)
1 Banner of the World Dragon (Stubborn)

Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard (2#, 420 pts)
1 Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard, 420 pts (Heavy Armour; Always Strikes First; Fear; Magic Resistance (1); Mark of Asuryan; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages; Witness to Destiny)
1 The Phoenix Blade (Flaming Attacks; Multiple Wounds (D3))
1 Ashtari (Attuned to Magic; Blizzard Aura; Fly; Large Target; Natural Armour (5+); Swiftstride; Terror; Thunderstomp)

Archers (23#, 250 pts)
22 Archers, 250 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Longbow; Always Strikes First; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages; Volley Fire)
1 Hawkeye (Hand Weapon; Longbow; Always Strikes First; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages; Volley Fire)

Noble (1#, 162 pts)
1 Noble, 162 pts (Battle Standard Bearer; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Always Strikes First; Ithilmar Barding; Martial Prowess; Valour of Ages)
1 Banner of Avelorn
1 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Dragon Princes of Caledor (10#, 320 pts)
9 Dragon Princes of Caledor, 320 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Ithilmar Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield; Always Strikes First; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Fireborn)
1 Drakemaster (Ithilmar Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield; Always Strikes First; Martial Prowess; Swiftstride; Valour of Ages; Fireborn)
10 Elven Steed (Swiftstride)

Alarielle the Radiant (1#, 350 pts)
1 Alarielle the Radiant, 350 pts (General; Level 4 Wizard; Hand Weapon; Always Strikes First; Boon of Isha; Chaos Bane; Lileath's Blessing; Martial Prowess; Touch of the Everqueen; Valour of Ages)
1 Star of Avelorn
1 Stave of Avelorn
1 The Shieldstone of Isha
SpellArcher
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Hi Jallo

In general the Loremaster is considered deadly at low points totals. His huge repertoire is vicious, given the generally low levels of defence he faces. I have to say though, that's a very troop-light 500pt list! Still, if it works...

The 1500pt list looks more normal. I've won games at 2500 simply because the enemy couldn't cope with the World Dragon/Frostheart combination, with the rest of my army standing by. The only shooting threat I can see to the SM's is from Trebuchets. The Book is certainly powerful with the Loremaster but I'd still be tempted to take a Dispel Scroll instead, especially if you might be facing Dwellers or Dreaded 13th. That would also let you take Ironcurse Icon.

The magic on your 2500 list is just deadly. Interesting move to put Banner of Avelorn in the cavalry.
Jallo
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:19 am

Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#3 Post by Jallo »

SpellArcher wrote:Hi Jallo

In general the Loremaster is considered deadly at low points totals. His huge repertoire is vicious, given the generally low levels of defence he faces. I have to say though, that's a very troop-light 500pt list! Still, if it works...

The 1500pt list looks more normal. I've won games at 2500 simply because the enemy couldn't cope with the World Dragon/Frostheart combination, with the rest of my army standing by. The only shooting threat I can see to the SM's is from Trebuchets. The Book is certainly powerful with the Loremaster but I'd still be tempted to take a Dispel Scroll instead, especially if you might be facing Dwellers or Dreaded 13th. That would also let you take Ironcurse Icon.

The magic on your 2500 list is just deadly. Interesting move to put Banner of Avelorn in the cavalry.
How exactly do you mean with the BotWD/Frostheart combination, anything specific?
The trebuchet is a real problem, and I usually have been playing high magic to get the wards saves. I know that I will be facing Dwellers/dreaded 13th. I could consider changing the LM magic weapon/shield and taking a dispel scroll instead?
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#4 Post by SpellArcher »

Jallo wrote:The trebuchet is a real problem, and I usually have been playing high magic to get the wards saves.
OK, so if you have Everqueen with High Magic you start at 5+ Ward and probably increase it to 4+ most turns, which is dandy. Wouldn't that waste the Banner of Avelorn though?
Jallo wrote:I know that I will be facing Dwellers/dreaded 13th
The problem increases because the Swordmasters are not a large unit, which means Dreaded 13th probably takes the whole unit plus characters off. Plus the Grey Seer comes with Warpstone Tokens so low Winds of Magic rolls are very dangerous (you won't have the Dispel Dice to stop it). I'd definitely go scroll.
Jallo wrote:How exactly do you mean with the BotWD/Frostheart combination, anything specific?
I played one tournament with this combo plus some dodgy support units, army did surprisingly well. Plenty of enemy struggle to cope with an aggressive World Dragon unit, many usually deadly answers suddenly don't work. Almost all Skaven shooting for example. Frostheart is very hard to kill and just grinds stuff down, get it into combat within 12" of your BSB and it's not going anywhere.
Jallo
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#5 Post by Jallo »

SpellArcher wrote:
Jallo wrote:The trebuchet is a real problem, and I usually have been playing high magic to get the wards saves.
OK, so if you have Everqueen with High Magic you start at 5+ Ward and probably increase it to 4+ most turns, which is dandy. Wouldn't that waste the Banner of Avelorn though?
I guess the banner would still be good with the dragon princes. I'd still have a 5+ ward save on the unit with the Everqueen in life, and I can then cast regrowth if I get bashed by a trebuchet.
Jallo wrote:I know that I will be facing Dwellers/dreaded 13th
The problem increases because the Swordmasters are not a large unit, which means Dreaded 13th probably takes the whole unit plus characters off. Plus the Grey Seer comes with Warpstone Tokens so low Winds of Magic rolls are very dangerous (you won't have the Dispel Dice to stop it). I'd definitely go scroll.
I actually don't know the dreaded 13th as I only read about it. Can they really cast it with low winds of magic? Can it take out a whole unit of 17-20models?
Jallo wrote:How exactly do you mean with the BotWD/Frostheart combination, anything specific?
I played one tournament with this combo plus some dodgy support units, army did surprisingly well. Plenty of enemy struggle to cope with an aggressive World Dragon unit, many usually deadly answers suddenly don't work. Almost all Skaven shooting for example. Frostheart is very hard to kill and just grinds stuff down, get it into combat within 12" of your BSB and it's not going anywhere.
I'll be looking forward to trying this. :-)
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#6 Post by Prince of Spires »

I would change the order of adding stuff around. Personally I would add the BSB @1500pts and then add Caradryan into the 2500pts list later on. It probably means shuffling some other stuff around, but the BSB can be invaluable. Although it must be said, I doubt many armies will be able to deal successfully with Caradryan on ashtari at 1500pts.

I also think that perhaps you're a bit heavy on redirectors. I think two units of reavers is enough at 1500pts and 3 enough at 2500pts. I would personally perhaps even go for only 1 at 1500 and 2 at 2500. But that's personal preference. Going for only 2 @1500 means probably adding some archers. but it also frees up around 80 or so points for some extra SM or some other fun stuff.

I'm not sure if I would bring the BotWD at 1500pts already or if I would only add it later. The number of magical threats is perhaps lower at 1500pts. Biggest threat is dreaded 13th. And BotWD doesn't offer any help there. And the BoH Loremaster can get away with casting on few dice (relatively speaking). And so has a lower miscast risk. And so needs it less then a lvl4 mage without the book. This will let you bring a bigger unit of SM or perhaps already add the DP's into the 1500pts list.

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Jallo
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#7 Post by Jallo »

Prince of Spires wrote:I would change the order of adding stuff around. Personally I would add the BSB @1500pts and then add Caradryan into the 2500pts list later on. It probably means shuffling some other stuff around, but the BSB can be invaluable. Although it must be said, I doubt many armies will be able to deal successfully with Caradryan on ashtari at 1500pts.

I also think that perhaps you're a bit heavy on redirectors. I think two units of reavers is enough at 1500pts and 3 enough at 2500pts. I would personally perhaps even go for only 1 at 1500 and 2 at 2500. But that's personal preference. Going for only 2 @1500 means probably adding some archers. but it also frees up around 80 or so points for some extra SM or some other fun stuff.

I'm not sure if I would bring the BotWD at 1500pts already or if I would only add it later. The number of magical threats is perhaps lower at 1500pts. Biggest threat is dreaded 13th. And BotWD doesn't offer any help there. And the BoH Loremaster can get away with casting on few dice (relatively speaking). And so has a lower miscast risk. And so needs it less then a lvl4 mage without the book. This will let you bring a bigger unit of SM or perhaps already add the DP's into the 1500pts list.

Rod
Thank you Rod, for comments.

I do worry a little about been troop light in 1500. especially against skaven where I expect to get swarmed by slaves, and when I only have one infantry block I'll have a hard time getting to where the points are. I just really like my new model (phoenix) and want to try it out. Any experiences with skaven hell pit abomination vs. caradrian+ phoenix?

I don't, however, agree with regards to the Reavers. I've found that I play them really well and the don't only serve as redirectors - they are excellent war machine hunters (catapults, trebuchets etc.) and they often draw out much more points for a few turns when the opponent try to protect his warmachines. Afterwards they are good for returning on a flank or rear attack, and (especially with bows) in my experience confuse my opponents to make mistakes. The archers are good versus Skaven, but useless versus 2+ AS of the Brettonian knights.

I agree that a bigger unit of SM are preferable, I don't know if the everqueen is worth her points when I already have a loremaster + BoH. If I brought an Archmage instead I could bring a dispel scroll at 2500 which I think I may regret if I don't.
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#8 Post by Doctor »

Skaven are my usual opponent. I haven't tested Cal on his bird because Skaven can easily disable flying and the phoenix has only M2. Monsters are also vulnerable to the WLC and Doomwheel. Keep that in mind, it may be his weakness. I do want to test him someday.

I usually include PG with BoEF as my anti HPA unit (I think Razor isn't that great against light armored rats). Think about including the flaming banner on the knights, it's only 10 points. I find that the most successful tactic against the HPA usually was simply exploiting the random movement rules with the reavers.

I think you have enough shooting to kill off weapon teams or weaken rat ogres. Hard to say against Bretonnia. Metal magic signature should help against the knights.

Remember that Alarielle gives you a 5+ WS against non-magical attacks on your Swordmasters (plus immunity to fear and terror).

BTW your list should include Alarielle's magic lore(s). I guess it will be life :)
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Re: Feedback HE 500/1500/2500 escalation army

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I'm not sure if I would bring the BotWD at 1500pts already or if I would only add it later. The number of magical threats is perhaps lower at 1500pts. Biggest threat is dreaded 13th. And BotWD doesn't offer any help there. And the BoH Loremaster can get away with casting on few dice (relatively speaking). And so has a lower miscast risk. And so needs it less then a lvl4 mage without the book. This will let you bring a bigger unit of SM or perhaps already add the DP's into the 1500pts list.
I would always bring World Dragon, it's just too good. Skaven have spells like Warp Lightning, Scorch, Plague that can rip the Swordmasters up, not to mention almost all their shooting is magical. I agree that the unit is small though, more bodies would be good.
Doctor wrote:Skaven are my usual opponent. I haven't tested Cal on his bird because Skaven can easily disable flying and the phoenix has only M2. Monsters are also vulnerable to the WLC and Doomwheel. Keep that in mind, it may be his weakness. I do want to test him someday.
This is an excellent point. Skaven and Bretonnians (Falcon Horn) are probably the two worst two enemies to bring the Phoenix against, on reflection. I'd still take it for all-comers but if it's definitely these two...
Doctor wrote:I usually include PG with BoEF as my anti HPA unit (I think Razor isn't that great against light armored rats). Think about including the flaming banner on the knights, it's only 10 points. I find that the most successful tactic against the HPA usually was simply exploiting the random movement rules with the reavers.
I find knocking a few wounds off first with shooting or magic makes all the difference before engaging this bad boy in combat.
Doctor wrote:BTW your list should include Alarielle's magic lore(s).
Hmm, Pg 59 looks to me like you can choose at start of game.
Jallo wrote:I don't know if the everqueen is worth her points when I already have a loremaster + BoH. If I brought an Archmage instead I could bring a dispel scroll at 2500 which I think I may regret if I don't.
Everqueen is excellent but arguably she wants a bigger elite unit which the 5+ Ward will make especially nasty. Loremaster is also great but if you really want the Book too, I'd ditch Alarielle for AM with Scroll. Personally I'd stick with the Queen for all her special abilities but you'll have a vicious magic phase whichever way.
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