Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat May 26, 2018 12:14 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: facing a TK Kalida list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:21 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
I would love some input on list building and strategies etc.

I have a 3000 pts battle planned vs a TK Kalida list. My opponent (who I normally beat) has decided to take the toughest TK list from the net he could find. Sounds like good fun. I like a challenge ;) He's given me some insight into what it will be. The core of the army is a 70 skeleton archer unit with Kalida in there. There will also be 4 chariots, 3 light mages (for high S banishment), one of the high T monsters (I always confuse them, I think the non-flying one) and a handful of other stuff. I think around 7 drops in total only.

Which means I'm facing 45 poisonous shots that always hit on 4's a turn, combined with 2D6 S7 banishment hits, potentially 4D6 impact hits and a high S, high T monster.

So, what to do (assuming I have models for everything available)? I haven't decided on a direction for the army yet, so everything is open.

Considering HE shooting, I'm not going to win the shooting war I think. On the other hand, with 650pts to play with I can field 2 units of reavers and something like 55 archers. While they won't have the efficiency of the TK shooting, I can match his rate of fire shot for shot with them.

VS this list I think swordmasters are out as an option. Either PG with a 4+ ward or WL with a 3+vs shooting or perhaps both are the way to go I think. A fast, mobile element is definitely needed. Perhaps something like a small DP bus with a obsidian trinket noble can be an interesting option.

Of course, taking a dragon is always an option. You can't really go wrong with a S/T7 flying giant lizard. On the other hand, going magic heavy would be an interesting choice. Something like a loremaster with the book and a lvl 4 with shadow.

What are peoples thoughts and suggested tactics vs such a TK list?

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Warsaw, Poland
I'm speculating here, but I'll give it a shot:

Maybe your own light coven? They'll face the extra D6 hits against undead and you will get Pha's Protection. A Loremaster would be a good choice here for extra spells (including the Iceshard Blizzard), still being a light mage. Shadow would be good for the pit against his I1 monsters, though (as well as the T reducing spell).

The Everqueen could also be good. Lions with her will be resistant to shooting. She could give extra protection for your other mages. The Baner of Avelorn would also be an option, though many people would consider a WL horde with the Everqueen, BotWD and BoA broken..

Possibly such a horde and MSU? The WLs will be hard to kill, loosing small units won't hurt. But they would have to be functional, otherwise he will just focus on them for VPs.

Also, maybe a big cavalery bus, with a small light coven plus some fighty charcters inside? BotWD will protect you from banishment, high armor from shooting. I'll have a mobile unit that can shoot highly effective magic missiles, endure a fight and kill a monster. You can get flanked , but maybe this can be avoided with a reavers flank guarding tactic?

Edit:
Are they the kind of undead that gets burned by light magic? They are not I guess (so no effective light coven)?

Edit2:
Damn, are their shooting immune to spells like Pha's too? There goes my speculation :) Still WLs with Everqueen in them would be quite resistant. Maybe high magic for extra ward save and Convocation?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Get into CC quickly and chop them up. Horsemen + flyers for the win. Done! An eagle should be able to hold off the archers for a turn maybe too.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:47 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
Doctor wrote:
Edit:
Are they the kind of undead that gets burned by light magic? They are not I guess (so no effective light coven)?

Edit2:
Damn, are their shooting immune to spells like Pha's too? There goes my speculation :) Still WLs with Everqueen in them would be quite resistant. Maybe high magic for extra ward save and Convocation?

They are indeed the kind of undead that gets burned by light magic. AFAIK at least, there is only 1 kind of undead. So anything either TK or vampire count counts as undead.

Pha's protection indeed doesn't work. It's a funny TK thing, Kalida archers basically always hit on 4+, unless you can alter their BS.

The main light spells would be burning gaze, banishment, net and timewarp. But even with those, I like idea. It's very nasty. In fact so nasty that if I would try this I would check with my opponent first if he doesn't mind. The list has a potential for 3D6 S7 hits (and once per game 2 * 3D6), and 3 * 2D6 S4 hits ( 4 times even) all cast with an extra +4. Casting banishment on a 2+ is just nasty, even more so when you can do so twice. And it doesn't even require a huge magic phase to achieve it. 2 * banishment can be done on 4 dice, shems is on 1 (with a 1-3 chance to fail). That's 18 S7 and 24 S4 hits, 32 wounds or so.

Combined with 50 core archer shots and 3 RBT that's very serious ranged firepower. With some decent rolling, that can take 50 skeleton archers off the table in one turn. Not sure I want to do that to my opponent... Of course, my archers never actually roll decent, so that's some comfort for him I guess. And this still leaves almost 1000pts for other goodies. So, something like 30 WL, 15 PG and 7 DPs

It would be a small army, something like:

Lords
Allarielle
Loremaster (Book of Hoeth)

Hero's
BSB, Banner of Avelorn
lvl 2 mage, light, powerstone
lvl 1 mage, light, scroll

Core
55 archers (in 2 units probably)
2 * 5 reavers

Special
30 WL (potentially BotWD)
15 PG, fc, razor banner
7 DP's

Rare
3 RBT

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:53 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
John Rainbow wrote:
Get into CC quickly and chop them up. Horsemen + flyers for the win. Done! An eagle should be able to hold off the archers for a turn maybe too.

This is indeed the other option. Go for as fast a list as possible. 2 frosthearts, dragon lord, reaver + helm core, eagle rare, perhaps some WL and / or PG in special as backup.

A very aggressive, very fast, be in combat T2 latest kind of list.

The crucial part of the TK list is the Kalida block. The rest is just window dressing. Get stuck in vs that unit, distract the rest. Stand and Shoot might be an issue of course...

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Prince of Spires wrote:
The main light spells would be burning gaze, banishment, net and timewarp. But even with those, I like idea. It's very nasty. In fact so nasty that if I would try this I would check with my opponent first if he doesn't mind. The list has a potential for 3D6 S7 hits (and once per game 2 * 3D6), and 3 * 2D6 S4 hits ( 4 times even) all cast with an extra +4. Casting banishment on a 2+ is just nasty, even more so when you can do so twice. And it doesn't even require a huge magic phase to achieve it. 2 * banishment can be done on 4 dice, shems is on 1 (with a 1-3 chance to fail). That's 18 S7 and 24 S4 hits, 32 wounds or so.

Remember that the banner gives you +4 to cast on the unit containing it, so it won't make magic missiles easier to cast :) It would still be nasty, though. Just for fun, instead of the Loremaster you could stick Teclis there. It would be less competetive because killing him is very easy and you invest even more in the random magic pahse, but double Banishment and some extra spells from other lores could work (like toughness bonus for the unit, pit of shadows against the monsters, wildform for some more T&S etc).

They have the "Nehekaran undead" ability. The Light magic lore attribute states that you get the extra dice against targets that are Demonic or Undead. So it's open to interpretation..


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:54 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
Doctor wrote:
They have the "Nehekaran undead" ability. The Light magic lore attribute states that you get the extra dice against targets that are Demonic or Undead. So it's open to interpretation..

Tomb Kings FAQ wrote:
Q: Are models with the Nehekharan Undead special rule Undead? (pg 28)
A: Yes.


Something like this maybe:

Khalida
Hierophant, Lvl 4 Nehekhara, Fly cloak, Earthing Rod
Lvl 4, Light, Power Stone
Lvl 1, Light, Scroll
Lvl 1, Light, 4+ Ward Scroll

70 Archers, FC, Light Armour
4 Chariots, FC, Flaming

Warsphinx, Fiery Roar

Hierotitan
Casket of Souls

This is only around 2400pts. We could do with RE Lee's input here too, as a TK player.

We know what Khalida/archers do, Smiting on these from the Hierophant looks like a must-stop. I did wonder vaguely about a BSB in the unit with Flaming banner but unlikely to be needed vs High Elves. With only three Light wizards Banishment will be at S6 and that's much worse than S7 vs the Star Dragon for example, so why not a fourth? Obviously the list Channels well and the Casket gives +D3 Power Dice per phase. It, Khalida and the Hierotitan all contribute Bound spells and the HT gives +D3 to the casting total of all spells cast within 12" by friendly Wizards. Light of Death from the Casket is PL5 Bound, 48", Direct Damage. Ld test on 3D6, wound (no AS) for each point you fail by. The TK magic phase is no joke.

Warsphinx is lethal to Infantry but as John says, cav and Flyers good here. I once ran through half a TK army with 5 Dragon Princes. Can also be mass shot because while T8, it only has a 5+ AS. I agree the main issue will be getting into combat in one piece Rod. How about Dragon plus mini-coven? I'd be inclined to make it balanced and see how it does because you usually beat this dude.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Warsaw, Poland
You could drop one mage, the Banner of Avelorn (not very useful in this situation), DPs and RBTs from your previous list for a Start Dragon Prince (or PGs and leave the cavalry). But won't the dragon get shot by the archers?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:39 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
SpellArcher wrote:
I'd be inclined to make it balanced and see how it does because you usually beat this dude.

This is a good point. It would be a nice test to see how I can make a balanced work against a more extreme list.

The list I'm most comfortable with is an aggressive combined arms or dragon list. It's what I usually play. So that would be a natural choice here. A few thoughts then.

Core:
This seems like the easiest area to fill. 2 units of reavers and fill the rest with archers. Redirecting might not be the most crucial vs this TK list (though it can never hurt). But they might either draw fire or be able to tie up the big Kalida unit for a turn. A suicide charge where they survive for a turn would deny him a turn of shooting. And the archers (around 55 of them) should almost be able to match the TK shot for shot. And each 2 dead archers is one less shot.

Characters:
This is the tough one, and as usual determines the rest of the list. Two options:
Dragon: Full on aggressive. It can match anything he puts on the table. Get it into the archer unit and that should more or less end the match (though even a dragon will have trouble chewing through 70 archers). However, taking one prevents taking a lvl4.
Lvl4 + loremaster: the other choice I think. It opens up a coven style list. And it's a better answer to the TK magic phase. I'm not sure yet on the lore for the lvl4. A light coven would be fun. But shadow offers a lot. Question, does miasma work in lowering the to hit score of Kalida archers? I'm not sure. The TK book mentions using her unmodified LD. But GW never really cleared up what that actually means. If it does then shadow for double miasma would be great.

Special / Rare
Depend a bit on what's left over in points. Double frostheart in rare would be bad news for him I think. But even a single one could be tough. I'm thinking something like 1 frostheart, 3 RBT and an eagle.

As for special, I'll probably go for a mix of PG and DP's. PG haven't failed me yet. Combined with Timewarp they can be where they need to be T1. And DP offer speed, good armour and a serious punch.

Thoughts?

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Warsaw, Poland
You play with 25% lords?

I think Miasma won't work, as the book states that they use her unmodified BS.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
I didn't think Undead were allowed stand and shoot? I thought their only charge reaction was 'Uuuuuurgh'?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:27 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
John Rainbow wrote:
I didn't think Undead were allowed stand and shoot? I thought their only charge reaction was 'Uuuuuurgh'?

Good point John, I'd forgotten this. Quite a handicap for such a list. You look at the TK army and think "Awesome magic, juicy Special Characters, tough Constructs. But then you run into rules fails like this which just nerf the army big time. Why not " May not choose Flee as a charge reaction" instead?

Doctor wrote:
I think Miasma won't work, as the book states that they use her unmodified BS.

Without Khalida I think it works because the Arrows of Asaph rule makes no mention of Unmodified. Indeed a suspicious term as far as GW are concerned! The best guidance I could find was this:

Tomb Kings FAQ wrote:
Q: If a Tomb King has the Fencers Blades, does the My Will Be Done special rule mean that he makes his unit Weapon Skill 10? (pg 30).
A: No; use the Tomb King's unmodified Weapon Skill of 6, not his modified value of 10.

Now, generalising between FAQ's is horrific and even within it's dodgy. But I think this is the best guidance we have and that Miasma should not nerf the Khalida unit. There is also my above point and the merits of giving the poor sods a break!

Doctor wrote:
You play with 25% lords?

This changes things for Khemri too because the list can't then sensibly fit Khalida and the Light Lvl4, given that the Nehekhara Lvl4 is almost mandatory. It could I guess go 2 x lvl 3 but I feel keeping the lvl4 for dispelling is best, which means relying on Hero-level casters for the Coven.

Normally I'd consider the Helm Bus the go-to Core choice for a Combined Arms or Dragon list, especially considering the utility of 2+ AS Cavalry vs this enemy (I'll be expounding at length on HE Core in my Daemon blog soon!). But obviously you can't fit a Cavalry Prince alongside a Star Dragon at 750pts.

Doctor wrote:
But won't the dragon get shot by the archers?

If it stands in front of them for long enough then yes. I think the key here is to use deployment (the TK list has few drops) and 20" Flying movement to get around it's flank if possible. Could be tricky if it corners. As said though, get anything into it that can hold and you shut the shooting down which should be decisive. Dragons do have plenty of wounds and an effective '5+ Ward' in the rider! Not to mention the 3+ AS. Armour is traditionally a great counter to Poison, which is why for example the latter is so effective vs Daemons. Phoenixes could be more vulnerable here. All flyers though will be very hard to redirect, which effectively reduces the ranged damage they would otherwise take.

Prince of Spires wrote:
PG haven't failed me yet. Combined with Timewarp they can be where they need to be T1.

I agree there's no reason to drop this excellent all-comers unit Rod. But watch out for the Warsphinx and the Khalida shooting here. Also, the Channels and the multiple Arcane slots could add up to a pretty stiff magic defence.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
SpellArcher lured me in :)

Ah, Khalida. A great character, but unfortunately not very good against HE. Given our low T the poisoned attack don't really do much - 70 shots is . The Sphinx is a tough beast, but our re-rolls mean we will get those 6s. Magic is counterable.

Exchanging shot won't do you any good, as the TK can regenerate well. Hit fast and hard. I'd take a 1-2 big SH Buses (15-20 +/- some characters) and slam it straight into Khalida's archers, with a solid PG unit (WL are an option as well, but would suffer against the Sphinxes) making up the second wave (an archmage with the Book of Hoeth might be a good idea here actually). Overwhelm the undead with attacks.

A dragon is a nice idea, but it doesn't have a lot of attacks and could get stuck. It might also suffer against Banishment, Light of Death and stuff like that.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 9:48 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
RE.Lee wrote:
Ah, Khalida. A great character, but unfortunately not very good against HE. Given our low T the poisoned attack don't really do much

This makes a lot of sense to me in general, though Phoenixes for example might suffer.

RE.Lee wrote:
Magic is counterable.

Be interesting to see whether something like a standard Book + Scroll defence stands up to the TK phase.

RE.Lee wrote:
I'd take a 1-2 big SH Buses (15-20 +/- some characters) and slam it straight into Khalida's archers,

Harsh!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
with a solid PG unit (WL are an option as well, but would suffer against the Sphinxes) making up the second wave

I remember concluding that if I could deal with the Sphinxes first, even my Core infantry would be a combat threat.

RE.Lee wrote:
It might also suffer against Banishment, Light of Death and stuff like that.

It's tailoring but possibly take a flyer here and run MR3 on the Prince? No idea if it would work or not.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 1:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Our core infantry, even the archers actually work really well against Sphixes - the sheer number of attack and ASF can cause a couple of wounds, then the static combat resolution hits.

I'd love to see a Necrosphinx vs Star Dragon fight! Cast some Cursed Blades on the beast and watch the HE player sweat, praying for no Heroic Killing Blow :lol:

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 12:20 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
Thanks for the insights. They do generate a lot of ideas. And it's nice to know a bit about what's coming.

I'll be working on 2 lists, one 3000pts and one 2500, to give some flexibility on the night we're playing, depending on the time we're starting etc.

For the 3000pts one I'm leaning towards a star dragon list. A star dragon in itself won't do much against 70 archers. But it will hold the unit in place allowing other stuff to get stuck in and prevent it from shooting. A challenge could be a problem. I'll supplement him with archer and either seaguard or spears core and some reavers. A DP bus and PG unit in special. And then see what I have points left for. Frostheart would be nice and flamespire could be fun. So an adaptation of my default list more or less.

For the 2500pts one I'll go for a magic oriented list. Archmage and/or Loremaster. Perhaps a slightly more defensive army setup to go with them.

As for the dragon, I think key here will be mobility. My opponent won't have a lot of places to put his characters. And moving the archer unit would be a bad idea, simply because it removes all the volley shots, almost halving the effectiveness of the unit. So getting the dragon out of direct LOS should offer a fair bit of protection already.

Dealing with the few chaff units in the list will be important I think. Having relatively free movement will make life much easier.

Magic wise, what are the spells to watch out for? Banishment (@s6 or 7) is an obvious one. But what else?

As for the casket of souls, how would an eagle or a unit of reavers fair against it? Both should be able to get T2 charges. And if my opponent gets first turn the reavers might even get a bottom of T1 charge if they're lucky and my opponent is careless.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
With a Dragon in your list I'd certainly watch out for Smiting - 140 poisoned shots could ruin your day (thats almost an instant kill). The cursed blades is a spell thats easy to underestimate as well but those (heroic) killing blows really start hurting at on a 5+.

Reavers should easily destroy the Casket, though and eagle might have some problems (only two attacks and no re-roll). The Casket is usually well protected.

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:35 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
RE.Lee wrote:
Our core infantry, even the archers actually work really well against Sphixes - the sheer number of attack and ASF can cause a couple of wounds, then the static combat resolution hits.

I remember being concerned about the Thundercrush/Breath Weapon combo. What I actually did was take one down with massed, buffed, archery plus Magic Missiles and the other with souped-up cavalry.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic wise, what are the spells to watch out for? Banishment (@s6 or 7) is an obvious one. But what else?

Also Light of Death, especially on expensive single models out of BSB range.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:17 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
In the end we settled for a 2500pts battle. So I'll forgo the dragon and take a more magic oriented list. Currently I'm thinking towards the following list:

lords 575
Archmage, lvl4, scroll, shadow 245
Loremaster, Book of Hoeth, Armour of silvered steel 330

heros 164
BSB, barded steed, startlance, HA, dragon helm, golden crown 164

core 631
49 spearmen, musician 451
5 reavers, musician 90
5 reavers, musician 90

special 650
10 Dragon princes, fc 320
17 PG, fc, armour piercing banner 330

rare 480
2 frostheart 480

I'm not sure about the core options. Shooting normally does very little for me. But to go without shooting at all is a big step. So instead of 49 spearmen I could also go for 44 archers spread over two units perhaps. Or 29 spearmen and 18 archers. Both units would get a musician by taking one from one of the reaver units. Or 40 LSG (no shields). But they feel like a bad compromise here. On the other hand, trying a spearmen horde would be fun to try for once. Thoughts?

About the rest of the list. DP for a fast shock element, PG because they rock. Double frostheart because I want to try it and because at least one should end up in combat if the other gets shot. Main threat to my opponents list are actually the spearmen horde. 50 rerolling ws 4 attacks (or 40 on the charge) are bad news on skeleton archers. But none of the other units can be ignored either. The PG can grind through most things he can put on the table. The DP should either slam into the archers to stop them shooting and simply keep them in place or they should be able to handle most support on the table. What do people think about the list?

Alternative ideas that crossed my mind:
Drop the loremaster for a regular lvl2 (about 180 pts difference), drop a frostheart (240pts). This should get 2 RBT (140), BotWD on the DP's and something like a small WL unit. Much less impressive magic phase. But a much stronger shooting phase (I would add a third RBT if I had one assembled). Of course I could do just one of those for the RBT. But I'm not sure the extra shooting here will help much.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Solid list.

I think the alternatives you're thinking about are inferior - they introduce shooting elements that will only distract you from charging into the eneme head-on. The TK have solid deep-striking units thanks to Entombed Beneath the Sands, that can easily deal with a lot of shooters. Right now your army has no "soft underbelly", which is an important strength.

Nice to see Dragon Princes in the list - they should do well with all those attacks but watch out for killing blow. A solid unit of TGs can dent them badly.

Good luck!

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 8:03 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
As a combined arms player, I'm always suspicious of lists without shooting. There is always something I'll want to weaken or pick off at range. But as you say Rod, there are various things you want to try out here and it should be an interesting clash of opposites anyway.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 10:02 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
The battle was fought. I'll see if I have time to put up a small battle report later.

About the list I took, my opponent asked for a last-minute change in the points level to 2600. So I needed some adjustments. In the end I took roughly the list as above, except that instead I went for 14 archers in core and a RBT, swapping out spearmen until that all fit. The RBT was the easiest way to add 75 non-core points to the list. And bringing a RBT meant I wanted some more shooting in the list to make the phase count for something.

In retrospect, I should have simply stuck with spear horde (as will be seen in the report), adding 3 spearmen or so to meet min-core and brought something other then a RBT for the points. Like SA, I'm a combined arms guy. But 14 archers and 1 RBT doesn't add much in terms of shooting. But then, I think I have the suckiest archers in the elven kingdoms they rarely if ever kill anything. With one noteworthy exception where my shooting once managed to kill an OK canon in T1. But they've never done anything useful since.

In general though, Shooting is a clear numbers game (at least s3 shooting and to a lesser extent RBT fire). 20 shots per turn don't add much (20 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 after armour, and that's more or less a best case scenario). Especially against a list with big blocks. My opponent somehow hasn't figured out the use of redirectors, despite frequently running into and through my reavers or eagles. And despite talking with him about it. And 3 wounds on a 25+ block skeletons just doesn't add much. It gets even worse when trying to shoot high T (or armour) models, like the sphinx thing. So there wasn't really much to shoot at...

I'll get to work on the battle report. It'll be a short one though. We managed 2.5 turns before it was time to head home. The battle was a decent way over by that time though.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Looking forward to the report! I'll soon be adding one of mine, too - playing a game today with Empire.

Your shooting worked pretty much like I said it would, but I totally appreciate combined arms :)

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 8:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Warsaw, Poland
I'd also like to see the report :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:03 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
Yes, get cracking with the reports guys!

:)

I'll post mine up from today's event in due course.

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:55 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
Time to start the report :) It is a bit from memory, so forgive any inconsistencies

Army lists
First, lists. As mentioned my list ended up

lords 575
Archmage, lvl4, scroll, shadow 245
Loremaster, Book of Hoeth, Armour of silvered steel 330
Both ended up going in the spearmen unit

heros 164
BSB, barded steed, startlance, HA, dragon helm, golden crown 164 in the DP unit

core 631
36 spearmen, musician 334
14 archers 140
5 reavers, musician 90
5 reavers, musician 90

special 650
10 Dragon princes, fc 320
17 PG, fc, armour piercing banner 330

rare 550
2 frostheart 480
RBT 70

My opponent had (roughly)

Kalida
Tomb king
Another special character that improved his necrosphinx
BSB

10 skeleton horsemen, muso
45 skeleton archers, full command (Kalida and BSB go here)

28 Tomb Guard (Tomb king and other special character go here)
30 skeleton spearmen

Casket of Souls
Necrosphinx (I think it was, the big flying one)

Main thought on the lists was, I wanted a fast way to take out the casket and I wanted my spear unit opposite the kalida unit.

Edit: forgot rolls for spells
My archmage on shadow got the worst possible roll for shadow I think 1,3,4,6. Swapped steeds for miasma. Luckily, the Loremaster fills the gaps.
My opponent rolled 2,2,2,4 giving him a handful of picks. He went for signature, 2,3,4 I think.

Deployment
We played the battle on my friends table, which is actually slightly too small for WH. It's only around 40'' instead of the 48'' you expect for a 'tournament legal' table. O well, you have to make do with what you have. It does promote aggressive play and offers less room to hide.

Terrain layout had 2 hills in opposite corners, my opponent had 2 forests in his deployment zone. I had an otherwise empty deployment zone, but relatively close to my deployment zone there were two pieces of impassible terrain and there was a forest in front of my hill. Fine by me. As HE player I always like impassible terrain. It benefits my playstyle in weighted flanks and offers some protection vs larger armies.

My opponent started deployment with his casket going right in the middle of his deployment zone, slightly back from the edge of his deployment zone. I countered with a unit of reavers opposite the casket. Kalida unit goes down next to the casket, again centrally on the field. RBT on a hill (obvious choice). Skeleton horsemen go next to the Kalida unit, bottom of the field.

by this point, I have a fairly good feel for where the rest of my opponents units will go. Both infantry units will probably go towards the top of the field, where most room is, and the sphinx will go centrally towards the top somewhere (since it wants to be near the special character in the tomb guard). This means I can get ideal matchups for most of my other units, even more so since I have a few spare drops left before committing my hard hitting units.

To summarize, below is a picture of deployment after vanguard.
Image

My deployment was, top to bottom, RBT, archers, Reavers, Spearmen, frostheart (behind the spearmen), reavers, other frostheart (who looks surprisingly like a flamespire in the picture...), PG and DP's

My opponent had: spearmen, sphinx, tomb guard, casket, archers, horsemen.

Vanguard takes the skeleton horsemen between the hill and the impassible terrain piece and both my reaver units forward.

Rest of the report to follow

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:19 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12015
Location: Otherworld
Thanks for this Rod.

I note the civilized mug of tea, rather than the beers that used to litter Seredain's photos!

:)

I'm guessing the Special Character is Ramhotep? I've seen him before in lists with a single unit of Necro Knights because re-rolling their 3+ AS can be quite effective. His Hatred and Frenzy could make the Tomb Guard quite nasty but he looks a little vulnerable in combat. You didn't list a separate Hierophant though, is the SC Ramhotep? No Coven of course, so magic slightly less scary than discussed. An Icon Bearer is slightly unusual I believe.

The Casket does look slightly exposed here. In this and Khalida your opponent has tools to deal with the Frosthearts but if he doesn't and they get into his infantry, it's going to get ugly for him. I also feel he wanted the Tomb Guard more central to protect Khalida.

A wild punt here, are your Dragon Princes riding Cold Ones?

_________________
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Skeleton horsemen, seriously? Those points would have been way better spent on some extra archers for Khalida's bunker. That way you could be down 1 Frosty per turn. As things are looking right now I don't like the TK player's chances.

A Hierophant does seem missing - or any wizard in fact?

_________________
cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:36 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
Lots of points. Comments in random order. Tea, yes, tea is important. I drink way too much of it. But somehow it's generally what I drink during WH games. I play mostly random week nights, and with a young kid, mornings start at a fairly fixed time. So sleeping long is rarely an option. Which makes tea a much better choice then more alcoholic drinks. At least, I usually think so early mornings... ;)

The special character was indeed Ramhotep the visionary. Frenzy can be pretty devastating, especially since I think he can't lose it. Painful for elves at least when it's in a unit big enough to strike back in serious numbers.

I indeed missed the Hierophant in my opponents list. He had a lvl4 hierophant in the Kalida bunker.

I had the same feeling about the casket being exposed. I was very surprised when it went down where it did. I would have personally put it further back and probably on a flank. It needs LOS and range for its spell, but the main reason for taking it is the extra PD. And angles correctly it can still reach most of the field. Suited me fine.

Skeleton horsemen I'm not sure about. Depends on their cost. We discussed them a bit after the game. I would personally use them in a same way as I would use reavers. Though they can't march, they're still pretty fast, especially with good initial deployment. And in a shooty list, a few redirectors are always nice to have. But that means they should be small and cheap. The unit of 10 (as it was in this list) isn't small enough to be disposable and not big enough to really do something. I would have split it in two for two of 5 or one of 5 and more archers.

As for the DP's, they're just regular DP's, the last metal version. No cold ones. =>
Image

Time to start the battle

Turn 1
My opponent gets to start. He finished deployment first and rolls well for first turn. Fine by me.

TK T1
The Tomb Guard charge the top Reavers unit. The unit flees and ends up next to the spearmen unit, back on my baseline. The TG move up 5''. The skeleton unit moves forward to keep pace with the TG. The sphinx flies over to position itself between the TG and the casket. The archer unit realizes that it's too far forward and moves back.

Magic
8-6 PD/DD, with a 6 as highest, increasing the phoenix ward to 4+. 2 PD from the casket, no channels for a 10-6 phase.

My opponent starts of with a small magic missile on the DP, I let it go and it kills one. He then goes for a 5 PD smiting, rolls very high (without getting IF). So I decide to scroll it. Means I have 6 vs 4 PD left over and nothing else happens in the phase. Losing the scroll this early can end up painful. On the other hand, I'm confident that I only need to weather one more magic phase before I can get stuck into combat.

Shooting
The Kalida unit crucially moved back, meaning no volley shooting which reduces the effectiveness of the unit by half more or less. He decides to go for the PG, since the phoenixes have a 4+ ward. He rolls pretty badly and only kills 1 PG.

HE T1
Reavers rally. The DP's charge the skeleton horsemen at the bottom of the field. The other reaver unit charges the casket. The PG, spearmen and bottom phoenix move up aggressively. The top phoenix is more cautious so it can keep most of the field in sight and lend a hand were needed. The rallied reavers move up to block the TG.

Magic
4-2 phase. I get a wildform cast on the spearmen, but nothing else

Shooting
Here I must admit I actually forgot they were on the table. So they didn't do anything (though that's not very different from next turn where they do shoot...). Still, no very useful targets, so not much lost.

Combat
The DP rip through the horsemen without giving them a chance to strike back. They reform facing the center of the field. The reavers do 3 wounds on the casket, we're a bit unsure at this point how to resolve them / spread them between the different models. He however doesn't do anything in return and so we decide it crumbles away (felt like the fairest solution at this point). They reform a bit so they can see the Kalida unit but aren't in the way of any charging units.

Field after T1
Image

Turn 2
TK T2
The TG charge the reaver unit again, this time they hold, resigning themselves to the end of their existence. The skeleton unit again moves up . The sphinx flies over my units to land behind my spearmen unit, next to the phoenix. He originally hoped to charge it, but there was no place to land. I think he then didn't have an extra plan what to do with it.

Magic
9-6 PD-DD, with another 6 being the highest for another 4+ ward on the Phoenixes. My opponent tries another smiting, fails to meet the casting value, basically ending the phase early.

Shooting
He opens up on the spearmen unit, ends up killing 6 of them.

Combat
The Reavers and TG fail to do anything to each other. He wins with ranks, banner and charge, the Reavers flee and end up between the phoenix and the sphinx.

HE T2
The reavers rally. The spearmen and bottom phoenix charge the kalida unit. The DP move up to threaten the flank of the Kalida unit. The PG decide that the spearmen, phoenix and DP are enough to deal with the Kalida unit and move to the center of the field. The other phoenix moves to the top of the field from where it can see most units and is most flexible in where it can charge in to support stuff. The reavers which were still standing around after killing the casket move up to once again block the TG.

Magic
10-5 PD-DD, no channels, with a 5 for +1S on the phoenixes. I start with a withering on the archer unit, which I get, but end up with only -1T. Still, it means I'll be fighting s2 T2 archers. Next I try to go for mindrazor on the spearmen, but fail to get it.

Shooting.
This time I do remember I have it. The RBT shoots 6 shots at the sphinx, doesn't do anything to it. Same for the archers.

Combat.
The spearmen and phoenix have a field day against the kalida archers. Together with crumbles I reduce the unit to 20 or so archers. I take a handful of casualties in return.

Battlefield end of T2:
Image

Turn 3
TK T3
The TG for a change don't charge the reavers (doing so would take them way out of position). They restrain. The skeletons on the other hand do charge the reavers. A (very) high overrun would take them into the PG unit. Sphinx only reforms to face the battlefield. No other movement of note.

Magic
6-4, no channels, 4 being the highest for +1 attack on the phoenix
He casts a -S (and -T?) spell on the spearmen, rolls IF. Spell goes through and the spearmen end up S1. That combat is turning into a wet towel slapping contest... Not too worried, volume of attacks will make up for S. More crucially, he rolls a 4 for the miscast. The template kills a bunch of models on both sides (though less then you'd expect, we were really rolling terribly). But, the roll for the wizard comes up a 3 giving the hierophant a one way ticket to the warp.

Shooting
Nothing left that can shoot.

Combat
The skeletons go through the reavers, killing all of them. The overrun isn't very far however, and the unit ends up stranded in the middle of the field. In the spearmen vs archers combat both sides perform less then impressive (we have a S1 T3 unit fighting a S2 T2 unit). The phoenix on the other hand is still having a party between attacks and thunderstomp. After crumbles 9 archers and Kalida remain in the unit.

At this point, we call it a night (it's around 11 or so by this point and I had to get up at 6.30 again the next morning). Final battlefield shot
Image

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:51 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6670
Location: The city of Spires
Thoughts on the game
Our conclusion was that I was in a winning position. My opponent had lost his Hierophant, reducing his magic potential to zero (and starting crumbles). The Kalida unit was on the verge of being wiped out. The DP's would charge in the flank, and help finishing the unit off. This would mean my opponent had no ranged threat left and only the TG, skeletons and sphinx. The PG would go into the skeletons, possibly together with the phoenix and I still had another reaver unit to distract the TG for yet another turn. Of course, the sphinx could still cause havoc. But he would need a turn repositioning it and the TG to get any effect of it and I had some serious magical dominance.

He made some mistakes, and the small tables worked against him. If he had deployed his units correctly, he could have gotten another turn of shooting and would have had the casket for another turn at least. The skeleton horsemen indeed didn't do anything besides die. Which in itself is not a bad thing, but if he would have split them up in 2 units of 5 then they would have been a lot more useful. To me, it always seems like elf players (in general) get the value of redirectors better then some other players. Simply being able to dictate the movement and thus the flow of the battle is very powerful. And key to most of my wins.

In general I feel that the list my opponent played didn't suit his playstyle very well. He's a very aggressive player with not a lot of patience. A gunline (such as this) requires a more conservative approach, which at the same time can be very tactical. You need to think a few steps ahead with a gunline.

He made a few mistakes and I managed to capitalize on them. Another thing I keep trying to explain to my opponent but doesn't stick yet is overwhelming force. Getting as much power into as little space as possible to take out threats one at a time is more efficient then trying to tackle all at the same time and being stuck in. Of course, grinding fights fits undead better then it does elves. But they should either server a purpose or be an emergency choice. They shouldn't be the default in my opinion.

Any thoughts?

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 166/18/104


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group