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 Post subject: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Sometime last week I had an unexpected pick-up game against a friend. We found ourselves with an evening of nothing to do and looking forward to a game. He recently started a new Ogre army (he somehow managed to buy half a games store's inventory of GW models as it closed down) and he wanted to give them a test run. And since it was a new army (for both of us) and we had limited time we went for a 2000pts game.

I had an old list lying around somewhere. Nothing too special, but fun and balanced enough.

My list:
Lords
Loremaster, armour of silvered steel, Book of Hoeth - 330

Hero's
BSB, Eagle, starlance, dragon helm, golden crown, shield, HA, GW - 201

Core - 500
19 archers, musician - 200
20 spearmen, full command - 210
5 reavers, musician - 90

Special - 728
7 Dragon princes, musician - 213
15 PG, full command, armour piercing banner - 300
skycutter - 95
Lion chariot - 120

Rare - 240
frostheart - 240

Some fairly default and strong choices. Loremaster is pretty standard, as is the frostheart. The PG are a staple for lists of mine. And since this was one I made a long time ago and didn't remember all the ideas behind it anymore, it was nice to have a familiar, reliable unit in there.

Core was a bit of everthing. Reavers are an obvious choice. Spears are probably not the best option vs ogres. Archers, though they always fail to actually wound stuff for me, are always nice to have. The chariots are an unusual choice. I wanted to give the skycutter another try. And the lion chariot is a pretty decent choice as long as you're not facing cannons I think. The DP's, though they have been replaced by in most lists by core SH, are still a strong shock option.

My opponent brought (roughly, going from memory here):
Lord
Tyrant, stuff
Slaughtermaster lvl 4

Hero
BSB, stuff

Core
6 Ogres, full command
9 Ironguts, full command
10 gnoblars

Special
3 leadbelchers

Rare
3 rinox riders
2 sabretusks

Reasonably default Ogre bus list, with some oddities in there. Overall, enough ingredients for a fun game.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:08 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
. Loremaster is pretty standard,

Obviously the repertoire is great. I think you might miss the scroll Rod.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The PG are a staple for lists of mine.

If there's one army against which 15 PG might not be enough, it's Ogres. Be interesting to see.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Archers, though they always fail to actually wound stuff for me, are always nice to have.

I like Archers and Ogres don't have much armour. If he'd brought Leadbelchers you'd outrange him.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The DP's, though they have been replaced by in most lists by core SH, are still a strong shock option

Crucially, they are faster than his stuff.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Tyrant, stuff

That is going for it at 2000pts!

Prince of Spires wrote:
3 Ironblasters

Ironblasters are Rare!

[-X

Looks set for a good dust-up. You have some juicy cannon targets but also some fast hunters. Ogres can be tricky for HE's though, I think this match-up slightly favours the big lads.

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:09 pm 
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I don't have much experience against Ogres but that list look tough! The Irongut Bus is there to tie stuff up (and beat it up, too) with the Rhinox Riders ready to act as a hammer. The Ironblaster will probably deal with your chariots early on.

The Phoenix Guards should do ok, but is 15 enough? The Phoenix can't really thunderstomp anything and that -1S isn't going to do that much, too, against S6. Could be an uphill struggle, but I'm looking forward to seeing you run away with it!

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
3 Ironblasters

Ironblasters are Rare!

[-X

#-o just goes to show that I shouldn't do this sort of stuff from memory. I really should start making notes... They were Leadbelchers... Those guys walking around with cannons in their hands. Makes quite a difference of course. I'll update the list above.

There were indeed a few things I was worried about in this matchup. The ironguts bus being the main one. I didn't have a lot of stuff that could stand against it or do much damage against the characters in it. Which of course meant redirect it and / or charge it from multiple sides at the same time. The ironguts themselves I could handle as long as I would get a chance to hit them.

Deployment
My opponent started deployment, me going second. See picture below.

He went, top to bottom, Sabertusk at the far end of his line, leadbelchers, ironguts unit, gnoblars, mournfangs, sabretusk and small ogre unit at the bottom.

My deployment (again top to bottom) was: Dragon Princes at the far end of the line, Skycutter and BSB behind them, Frostheart, Phoenix guard, Lion chariot behind and to the side of them, Reavers, spearmen behind the reavers, archers on the hill.

Which gave:
Image
We agreed that the swamp at the top of the table would half movement, but otherwise not really have much effect on the game / models.

My opponent had a fairly central deployment with a slightly heavier left flank (from my perspective). The small ogre unit would have a fairly long march around the house to see some serious action. My own deployment had a heavy right flank PG and spearmen anchor the flank. Archers are there to either shoot stuff or die while keeping something busy for a turn or two. The feeling with the spearmen is that they will probably die and definitely aren't essential to the list. But that they are also something you don't want in your flank so they are not so much there to anchor the flank as to appear like they do.

Overall gameplan for me was to swing the fast stuff around the swamp while the infantry either tries to stay out of reach or hold up stuff for the cavalry to arrive. I had a fair bit of ranged stuff that is pretty decent against ogres overal (who are generally lightly armoured).

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:18 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
They were Leadbelchers...


Quite the difference indeed! :lol:

With that threat gone you fast-assault units should have an easier approach and let you control the field better. This is key against a death-starish unit like the Ironguts, so I like your chances much more now. Still now sure how to deal with them - a trickling magic phase with Miasma is an obvious option to delay them, while a Wildform-buffed PG unit could thin them down in combat, especially if the Phoenix gets in as well...

Can't wait to see how this one ends!

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
They were Leadbelchers...

Aha! Yes, a different ballgame without three cannon to worry about. Even one or two would have complicated things considerably. It's true that there's little for the Frostheart to Thunderstomp but with no cannon threat, he can pick his fights comfortably and he's an epic grinder. Leadbelchers are good against elves but they look to have their hands too full here.

A typical strategy vs Ogres is to weight both wings and weaken the centre in front of the Gutstar. Here you've gone heavy on the right only Rod. So I guess your ideal is to dispose of the support, then hit him in front and flank. The possible fly in the ointment is the Mournfangs. At first I thought your opponent should have switched these with the Ogres to get the latter into the game. But now I think he might need fast pressure on your centre to hamper you lining up your charges. So I could see him swinging his line round slightly to lead with his cavalry, though he still needs to advance with his big unit too. Your job, as I see it, is to kill the Leadbelchers, outflank the Gutstar and stop the Mournfangs helping the former out.

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:59 pm 
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That was indeed more or less my idea starting out. I remember that I once even discussed playing a complete refused deployment zone against Ogres with Swordmaster. Deploy refused flank, and T1 actually reposition to more or less fight along the narrow board edge. It's an unusual tactic and one that will throw opponents off I think. And against ogres it could let you fight units one at a time. Which would have helped SM with his MSU army at that time. Still something I might try at some point...

My opponents deployment helped me a bit I feel. His gutstar and mournfangs were so close together, especially with the house next to them that they had limited maneuverability. I think indeed putting the mournfangs on the position of the regular ogres and putting the ogres on the right flank would have made a difference here.

Anyway, on to the battle. My opponent got first turn (though it took us 3 rolls to determine that...):

Ogre turn 1
As expected, everything he has moves up the field. His top sabretusk moves to the edge of the top forest. Leadbelchers, gutstar and rinox riders move in a line more or less straight forward, keeping pace with each other. Bottom Sabretusk moves around the house and regular ogres simply move straight forward.

Magic:
Bonecrusher kills a couple of spearmen (only useful target in range). Spinemarrow on the gutstar goes off with IF. Miscast comes up with a 3, the blast brings an ogre down to 1 wound and does a wound on the slaughtermaster. The sucked into the warp roll comes up a 4, barely managing to keep him on the table. But the remaining dice are removed from the power pool

Shooting:
The leadbelchers open up on the DP's, killing 2 of them.

High Elf turn 1
My right wing moves up. Phoenix, DP's and skycutter move to either target the leadbelchers or outflank the army. BSB is more cautious and moves forward only a bit. PG and Lion chariot shuffle a bit to get a slightly better position, spearmen move back a bit to make a charge a long shot. Reavers move up to do what they do and block the centre of the ogre army.

Magic:
I manage to get -1 BS on the leadbelchers, but nothing else of significance gets through.

Shooting: The ironguts are a bit blocked off for the archers, which would make shooting them (with long range and cover) ineffective (or rather, even more ineffective than shooting normally is). So I decide to aim at the regular ogres and manage to actually kill a whole ogre. The shooting on the skycutter as expected does nothing.

end of T1 view:
Image

Ogre turn 2
Charges:
- top sabretusk charges the skycutter
- leadbelchers charge the DP's
- Ironguts, gnoblars and rinox riders charge the reavers (with the rinox riders in the flank).
- ogres charge the archers. Archers S&S and do 2 more wounds to the ogres
The ogres fail their (rather long) charge, the rest makes it in.

In other movement, the bottom sabretusk moves next to the hill, looking into the centre of the field.

Magic manages nothing of significance and shooting is non-existent with the leadbelchers in combat

Combat:
Sabertusk vs skycutter: Turns into a wet towel slapping contest. Neither manages to wound the other. Sabretusks win because they charged, skycutter sticks around.
Leadbelcher vs DP: DP do a bunch of wounds and take non in return. The leadbelchers flee, are pursued and get caught.
Big combat in the center goes as expected. All reavers perish for no significant wounds in return. Gutstar overruns (a bit), rinox riders reform to face forward, gnoblars reform to face the DP's at their rear.

High Elf turn 2
No charges.
DP's, frostheart and BSB swing round to face the rear of the ogre units. Lion chariot and PG move up out of the charge arc of the gutstar and face in such a way that the gutstar can't escape charges from them the next turn. The loremaster leaves the spearmen (since he knows what's probably next...). And the spearmen move up ever so slightly to tempt the gutstar to charge them, but also to make sure they can't easily overrun off the table. Archers remain in place and resign to being charged next turn.

Magic
I manage to draw a scroll and a magic missile does some very slight damage to the gutstar.

Shooting
doesn't do much.

Combat
The skycutter actually manages to put a wound on the sabertusk and doesn't take one in return. Wins combat by one but the sabertusk sticks around.

end of T2 view:
Image

Ogre turn 3
Charges
The gutstar takes the bait and charges the spearmen, together with the sabertusk (which goes in the flank).
Ogres charge the archers (and make it this time), who stand and shoot again and do another 2 wounds.
Both get ogre charges and thus do impact hits

Other movement
Gnoblars move forward to block the DP's
Rinox riders move forward slightly and pivot to face the centre of the battlefield.

Magic doesn't do much

Shooting: none

Combat
As expected, the gutstar goes to town on the spearmen and together with the impact hits, charge, flank, stomps and so on kill a lot of elves for no significant wounds in return. They bring the spearmen down to needing snake eyes for the LD test, which I fail even with the BSB reroll (roll 3 both times...). The gutstar reforms to face the PG, the sabertusk pursues and ends up off the table catching the spearmen in the process.
Ogres vs archers. The archers manage to bring the ogres down to only 3 models. But as expected get hammered in return and flee off the table. The ogres pursue and end up just over the hill.
The skycutter finally manages to kill of the sabertusk.

High Elf turn 3
Charges
DP's charge the gnoblars
Lion chariot goes into the rinox riders
PG, BSB and frostheart go into the gutstar (with the BSB and frostheart in the flank)

Other movement
Skycutter moves up so it can join in the fun next turn. loremaster runs to the flank of the rinox riders so it's out of all possible charge ranges next ogre turn.

Magic
I pray for and get a big turn. My opponent manages to dispel the first spell, but fails to dispel the second one and with the scroll gone I get through 3 spells in total. I get Wildform on the PG (for +1S and +1T), Iceshard blizzard on the gutstar and miasma for -2 WS on the rinox riders

Shooting: nothing left to shoot

Combat
DP vs gnoblars first. As expected the DP's run over the gnoblars without trouble. However, they don't make the easy overrun into the rinox riders (they needed a 7, rolled a 4).
The lion chariot does 2 wounds on the rinox riders doesn't take any in return. Rinox riders stick around on an easy LD roll
On the big combat, the magic and -1S of the frostheart really pay off. I do a lot of damage on the gutstar, killing off the back rank and adding a few on the characters. I only get a couple of wounds on the PG in return. They need a 4 to stay around, don't get it and flee. Stuff pursues and catches the unit. We decide to end the game there. He doesn't have much left to help him get back in the game and it's getting late.

End of game view
Image

We didn't add up points, but I'll go for a massacre for the HE.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Thanks for that Rod, it did indeed seem to be a clear win by that stage!

Prince of Spires wrote:
My opponents deployment helped me a bit I feel. His gutstar and mournfangs were so close together, especially with the house next to them that they had limited maneuverability. I think indeed putting the mournfangs on the position of the regular ogres and putting the ogres on the right flank would have made a difference here.

I think the problem was being too aggressive with the Gutstar but I'll back that up later.

Prince of Spires wrote:
leadbelchers charge the DP's

A bit risky maybe.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Ironguts, gnoblars and rinox riders charge the reavers (with the rinox riders in the flank).

He only needs to charge with the Mournfangs here. TBH I think he's already advanced too far with the Gutstar. He should try to get the two in a rudimentary battle line.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The gutstar reforms to face the PG

Looks like he might have been able to reform keeping all units in his frontal arc?

I don't have much to criticise about your play Rod because you were the one with the big win! I definitely think Crown of Command on the Slaughtermaster would have made a difference plus taking a cannon or two (the Tyrant is droppable). Take nothing away though, you set up the big combat well and punished him ruthlessly!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Great win! Those first turns were very eventful (miscasts, charges and all!) and I think you really played well to contain the Gutstar. By the time you engaged it with anything meaningful you already had the upper hand. The nice magic phase that turn helped a lot, too. Nothing quite like getting Wildform on the Phoenix Guards (especially with the Phoenix debuff in there as well) and those 2 hexes were just the icing on the the Ogre-cake!

=D>

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:37 pm 
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Thanks guys. It was a fun game. It indeed had everything that makes WH fun. Surprising dice rolls, close calls and charges.

PG are already great by themselves (with the razor banner). But they're a great recipient for magic buffs. Wildform is great on them, cheap and easy to cast, and you do not want to face a S5 T4 ASF 4+ wardsave unit.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
leadbelchers charge the DP's

A bit risky maybe.

It was a tough call for him. The debuff on them meant that shooting the DP was not as effective as needed. And then the DP would get the charge on them. Even 3 of them could go to town on the leadbelchers. So my opponent gambled that he's have a chance to have them stick around. I think in retrospect it indeed would have been better to simply shoot stuff.
Quote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Ironguts, gnoblars and rinox riders charge the reavers (with the rinox riders in the flank).

He only needs to charge with the Mournfangs here. TBH I think he's already advanced too far with the Gutstar. He should try to get the two in a rudimentary battle line.

Indeed, he was too aggressive and too eager here. Also, being more cautious here would have let the regular ogres move up, deal with the archers and then be on hand to offer support to the main battle line. I think charging everything in also gave him less room to maneuver later on.
Quote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
The gutstar reforms to face the PG

Looks like he might have been able to reform keeping all units in his frontal arc?

Good catch, you're probably partially right. I think it would have been hard to keep all 3 units in the front arc. But even 2 out of three would have made a serious difference (since it would have reduced available attacks on the unit. It's something to keep an eye out for in a next game.
Quote:
I don't have much to criticise about your play Rod because you were the one with the big win! I definitely think Crown of Command on the Slaughtermaster would have made a difference plus taking a cannon or two (the Tyrant is droppable). Take nothing away though, you set up the big combat well and punished him ruthlessly!

I don't mind the critique at all. It helps me improve my game. It's easy enough to take the big win as a sign that all is well. But there were definitely things I missed (like the reform for the gutstar). And just because my opponent also missed it doesn't mean that it can't improve.

As for the tyrant and the crown, I agree that his list can be optimized. As can mine as well actually. It was his first ogre game, so a lot of room to learn stuff. There is no substitute for simply trying a few things on the table and seeing what works for you.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It was a tough call for him. The debuff on them meant that shooting the DP was not as effective as needed. And then the DP would get the charge on them. Even 3 of them could go to town on the leadbelchers. So my opponent gambled that he's have a chance to have them stick around. I think in retrospect it indeed would have been better to simply shoot stuff.

One risk of course is that the Leadbelchers break or die first round, gifting the opponent a free Reform and it's his turn next, so he can set up a charge. Though here it was better to pursue I guess.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Good catch, you're probably partially right. I think it would have been hard to keep all 3 units in the front arc. But even 2 out of three would have made a serious difference (since it would have reduced available attacks on the unit. It's something to keep an eye out for in a next game.

I suppose at least he kept the PG out of his flank. But that only bought him the +1 combat res for his second rank?

Would be great to see a re-match!

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 Post subject: Re: 2000pts HE vs Ogres
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:45 am 
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I'm sure my opponent is up for a rematch somewhere near future, so I'll keep you updated when it happens.

The leadbelcher combat is an interesting one. It didn't really influence the game much in the end. But in retrospect, I think shooting the DP with them would have been a better idea. Even removing only one more could have made a difference later in the game. Also, I would have been less aggressive in general. I had a slight ranged superiority, but nothing too special. So there was no need to move up as fast with the central part of his battleline. Looking at the pictures, I think he could have used his sabretusk to block the DP, shoot them some more with the leadbelchers. This could have gotten him two turns of shooting at best. Or it could have kept the frostheart and skycutter busy for a turn.

At the same time, stalling the units in the centre would have let him have the small ogre unit deal with the archers and be ready to support any units in the centre. As it was now, my opponent walked straight into my units. Not sure if doing things differently would have mattered a lot, but I think my victory would have been smaller if he had even waited a turn more before moving up.

Rod

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