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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:53 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
As an aside, which do you guys feel is more important on the Nurgle Herald, if I had to choose? Regen Locus for the Plaguebearers or BSB to give re-rolls to the PB's and Beasts (only)?

The reason for this is that I'm thinking of dropping the Daemon Prince. I'd miss his magic and combat power. But he's 485 pts I have to be very cagey with and it's so easy to lose him to a lucky cannon shot or sustained elf archery. By dropping him I would have to cover a lot of bases from my Heroes allowance, which probably means choosing between re-rolls and Regen. Draft list for a week's time:

Skulltaker
Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus
Lvl 2 Tzeentch

14 Bloodletters, Musician, Banner of Swiftness
19 Plaguebearers, Musician, Gleaming Pennant
10 Horrors, Musician, Lichebone Pennant

5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

1993

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:23 am 
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Skulltaker! Always loved those assassin type characters - obviously the Deathmaster was my favourite, while Apophas was an unfulfilled promise, as was often the case with Tomb Kings :lol: Hope he manages to collect a decent number of skulls for the Skull Throne :)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:40 pm 
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I fought Apophas once. My foe and various onlookers spent the entire game telling me how crap he was. Then he breathed something awful on my Archers and killed them all!

:(

The Slayer of Kings

Interesting cove old Skulltaker. Previously I'd dismissed him because he has Flaming Attacks. This can be a real sod because of various items that give a 2+ Ward vs fire. He's seen most often in open list events where at least you know which characters those items are on. Even with closed lists though, it's not the end of the world. For a start, most Heroes won't have them. Often they need all their 50pt allowance for a 4+ Ward or other goodness. Even a character with such an item needs to think carefully before engaging because Skulltaker is bodyguarded by dudes with Killing Blow. Doesn't apply to pegasus riders and such who are immune to KB by virtue of being Monstrous Cavalry of course. But I have a (Flaming) Skillcannon, so a test shot should reveal if the hated 2++ is present.

What does Skulltaker bring to my army? The thing is, he's a Hero defensively but has Lord-level offense, seriously useful killing power to mitigate the loss of my DP. He's got four WS 9 attacks with Hatred. He's only S5 but gets +1S on the charge as he's a Daemon of Khorne. He also has Killing Blow and in challenges, Heroic Killing Blow. Even a dragon rider will think twice. Flaming Attacks (I don't have them elsewhere) are very useful vs Regen and Flammable.

On their own, the Bloodletters are a bit soft. S4 isn't all that and I4 is a killer when so many dangerous foes are I5 plus. Skulltaker is great for them because he's I9 so can kill enemy out and reduce the damage on the unit. He's not amazingly tough but has a 3+ AS, so can soak up a little damage. Any wound he inflicts on Regen enemy negates that for the slower BL's too. He also brings the Abjuration Locus, giving his unit MR2 and making damage magic less of an issue.

Of course the combined unit remains expensive and unreliable. But it adds a little spice to the Wall of Nurgle and with tricks like the Ambushing Flesh Hounds I'm keen to see how it performs!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:42 pm 
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I do think 485 pts is too much to put into a single model for a 2000pts list, especially if you're aiming for some form of combined arms. He brings a lot to the table, but he's not 'win the game singlehandedly' strong like a star dragon would be. Which makes those 25% of points harder to justify in my mind. Too many downsides.

How much is Skulltaker? He sounds reasonably tough and useful for the job of taking out tough single models. The biggest issue with flaming is the dragon helm, which is just a great way to boost an armour save. I usually take it more for that then for the flaming protection, which I mainly consider a bonus. That might mainly be an elf perspective though, since we're generally more hard pressed to get a good armour save for models unless we go the magical items route.

Of course, given the points range, some armies are bound to bring few characters. Which might increase the use of the dragon helm. Probably a very meta-related thing.

I do think I like the second list better.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I do think 485 pts is too much to put into a single model for a 2000pts list, especially if you're aiming for some form of combined arms. He brings a lot to the table, but he's not 'win the game singlehandedly' strong like a star dragon would be. Which makes those 25% of points harder to justify in my mind. Too many downsides.

The best argument for including him is magic Rod. Slaanesh is a great all-round Lore and I will miss the fifth spell and +4 to dispel. But Daemons are a decent army for going low-magic because of the Ward saves and ITP, amongst other things. I still have four spells and three Channels which is probably workable at 2000pts. You're probably right that he doesn't bring enough combat power.

This was one of the (few) areas where I disagreed with Seredain. To me spending 200-250 points on a monster can make sense in a Combined Arms list because he gives you an extra option but his loss shouldn't be decisive. The problem here is tying almost my entire magic phase to him. It has to be said that dropping him makes the army pretty much cannon-proof, which was one of Seredain's strongest arguments.

Prince of Spires wrote:
How much is Skulltaker? He sounds reasonably tough and useful for the job of taking out tough single models. The biggest issue with flaming is the dragon helm, which is just a great way to boost an armour save. I usually take it more for that then for the flaming protection, which I mainly consider a bonus. That might mainly be an elf perspective though, since we're generally more hard pressed to get a good armour save for models unless we go the magical items route.

He's 200pts. A bit hit and miss but the rest of the army is more reliable. Dragonhelm certainly is an issue but if he gets tied up or killed it's not terminal, especially as I'm sneakily intending to make the Nurgle Herald my General! I expect any HE opponent to put virtually all his characters in a World Dragon deathstar, so they'll have a 2++ anyway!

Prince of Spires wrote:
I do think I like the second list better.

I'll miss the big guy but the Skulltaker list does look like the way forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Worcester

Image

So this was a three-game one-day event on Sunday October 9th, organised by Worcester Wargames. 2000pts, no End Times, no 50% Lords and Heroes. The unusual thing was the scoring system. Traditional VP's went out the window. Instead, players scored 1 VP for achieving each of the following:

1) Each enemy unit destroyed (lone models of course count as units).
2) First to kill a unit.
3) General killed.
4) Each table quarter occupied and not contested.
5) A model in the enemy deployment zone at the end.

I brought the Skulltaker list:


Skulltaker
General, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus
Lvl 2 Tzeentch

14 Bloodletters, Musician, Banner of Swiftness
19 Plaguebearers, Musician, Gleaming Pennant
10 Horrors, Musician, Lichebone Pennant

5 Flesh Hounds, Ambush
4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

1993

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:06 pm 
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Flamed
Game One - High Elves

Prince on Griffon (Swooping Strike), Armour of Caledor, Star Lance
Mage, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll

20 Sea Guard, Shields, Champion, Standard
6 Reavers, Spesr and Bow
10 Archers, Champion, Standard

15 Phoenix Guard, Champion, Standard
6 Dragon Princes, Champion, Standard
19 Swordmasters, Champion, Standard

Flamespyre
RBT

Thoughts on the match-up?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:40 am 
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That's an interesting scoring system. It seems to favor large, unkillable units instead of MSU lists. I don't think I would perform well in this scoring system. In a 2000pts list I would probably already have 2 chaff units that are certain to die each game and in general I'm will to throw almost everyone under the bus if it helps secure victory. Which means that units tend to die on me. And I normally run something between a MSU and a MMU type list.

Thoughts on the matchup:
The elf army looks great. Just that already makes it a great game and matchup ;)

The 'easy' points are the RBT, archers, reavers and griffon. SW can be dealt with if you manage to escape the punishment they dish out when attacking. The flamespire is a bit a gamble, since if you manage to kill it it could just come back to haunt you. Stay away from the PG, and consider the DP's if you can get the charge or if you can get High S attacks into them.

I like the HE list. unusual but I can see the strengths of it. The PG give a solid block to anchor the line. The griffon and DP's give mobile, high S attacks. The SM's are a good backup unit (watch out for hammer and anvil tactics with the PG). The LSG are an unusual choice (I would have picked archers). But they should stick around against low S units. The RBT seems like a filler. Taking one doesn't do much. It can be ignored for anything except scoring purposes.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:52 pm 
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I echo Prince's thoughts - thats a rather odd set of victory conditions that seems to promote deathstars. Chaff is usually a solid counter against lists like this and here its additionally penalised by leaking VPs through losing units. Things like a Khalida-led TK army would do well in this setting.

The HE list is softish I guess - with no amended rules the Griffon is a huge liability. The Seaguards are decent here, I think, but the smallish unit of archers and the reavers are just free points against most armies. With your lack of shooting this might be a bit different? The special unit selection seems ok - I like those 6-strong DP squadrons, great at sweeping off light units from the field with all those attacks! I'd swap the sizes of the PGs and SMs if I were your opponent, but 15 PGs is still a force to be reckoned with.

Killing the fast assault units is a priority. If you manage that I predict a very big win for you :)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:46 pm 
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Thanks guys.

RE.Lee wrote:
I echo Prince's thoughts - thats a rather odd set of victory conditions that seems to promote deathstars. Chaff is usually a solid counter against lists like this and here its additionally penalised by leaking VPs through losing units.

Exactly, we're all seeing this. Happily we had two fairly balanced armies here which negated the problem.

RE.Lee wrote:
The HE list is softish I guess - with no amended rules the Griffon is a huge liability. The Seaguards are decent here, I think, but the smallish unit of archers and the reavers are just free points against most armies. With your lack of shooting this might be a bit different?

Prince of Spires wrote:
The flamespire is a bit a gamble, since if you manage to kill it it could just come back to haunt you.

There are a few things going on here. First and foremost, no World Dragon. Given the lack of a lvl4, my counter to the Banner would be to feed it cheap units but as discussed, that scores badly. So no Banner is very helpful. Secondly, my opponent has two Monsters and I have lots of stuff that can be Thunderstomped. The Flamespyre has a 2+ Ward against both the Skillcannon and Skulltaker, which leaves me relying heavily on Tzeentch magic to deal with it. I have the stronger magic phase but as mentioned, lack the BS shooting to easily pick off the lighter HE units. Basically, if I can neutralise the Monsters I feel I have the beating of the HE elites because they lack the killer synergies like World Dragon, 3++ on the PG etc.. They also lack a Battle Standard. I have this as a +1 match-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:50 pm 
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Pre-game and Deployment

Mage: Arcane Unforging (plus Ring of Fury)

Horrors: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Herald: Treason of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change
General: Curse of the Leper

No Gateway, which boded ill for dealing with the Flamespyre. Bolt was better than nothing I suppose but Treason less useful than normal given the lack of BSB and the free-range General. Firestorm always a bit hit and miss but Curse was solid, especially as I was free to be aggressive with my General's unit (the Plaguebearers), so likely to be within the 18" of a promising target. My opponent should perhaps have doubled up on Fury as my list lacked juicy Gifts for him to Unforge.


Image

First we see the left wing (from my perspective). My opponent has his Flamespyre on the end, then the Sea Guard, then his RBT deployed inside the small tower. Then his Phoenix Guard, with his Archers central behind a wall. I have my Horrors behind a hill, to counter the phoenix. Next Skulltaker and his Bloodletters, they will need to be wary. Then the Beasts behind the wood, these are my main strike force. To their right the Plaguebearers, who will cover their advance.

Image

On my right I have only the Seekers, as a distraction. My opponent has his Griffon Rider fairly central, opposite the large tower. Then his Swordmasters, with Mage. The DP's are to the right of the greenwood, with Reavers on the end. Not shown are my Skillcannon (to counter the Griffon), Furies and Flamers, deployed to the left of the big tower.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:57 am 
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I still like your chances. The only real question is whether you can get the Griffon. The Skillcannon is your best shot (huehue) I guess, though magic is an option as well. With the Beasts at your disposal I doubt the infantry will be much of a threat (though better not underestimate the potential of SW/PG).

Looking forward to how this develops!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:05 pm 
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2 refused flanks playing each other. Should be interesting. I think your deployment is slightly better. Your opponent needs to relocate a bunch of units before having a good refused flank battle line. Both the reavers and the flamespire are way out of position. And while they're fast, they will need their first turn to get to where they need to be. Your seekers on the other hand are where you want them to be.

The flamespire generally is a pain to fight with low S units. But it doesn't do much damage of itself. Only the thunderstomps are effective and they really depend on a single dice roll. A bit hit and miss.

Given the scenario, I would go for the LSG, they shouldn't be too difficult to deal with and try to either shoot the griffon or get into combat with it. Your cannon should be able to force the griffon to do things it doesn't want to do.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:18 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
The only real question is whether you can get the Griffon. The Skillcannon is your best shot (huehue) I guess,

This little duel turned out quite interesting!

:)

Prince of Spires wrote:
I think your deployment is slightly better. Your opponent needs to relocate a bunch of units before having a good refused flank battle line.

I agree Rod. My opponent has some units capable of fast redeployment but some of his Infantry are a little stranded.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The flamespire generally is a pain to fight with low S units. But it doesn't do much damage of itself. Only the thunderstomps are effective and they really depend on a single dice roll. A bit hit and miss.

Yes, perhaps I was a little too cautious at first.


HE Turn One

My foe won the roll-off but stayed pretty much static. Magic achieved little because of a lack of decent Unforging targets. Shooting removed a pair of Furies.

Daemon Turn One

The Horrors reached the hill, with the Bloodletters advancing cautiously alongside. The Beasts Marched forward at full pace, with the Plaguebearers in support. The depleted Furies hid behind these. My other troops basically shuffled a little. Magic saw Bolt of Change hit the Flamespyre but no damage caused. Shooting was more eventful! The Skillcannon wounded the Griffon Rider, who promptly failed his 2+ Ward vs Flaming and expired! His beast survived, losing two wounds but passing it's Monster Reaction test.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:52 pm 
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HE Turn Two

Stung into action, my opponent rushed his Griffon forward to the big tower, followed up by Saphery's finest. His cavalry swung round. Elsewhere his troops held station, except for the Flamespyre and Archers which edged forwards. Magic was explosive, a 4D6 Fury of Khaine obliterating the Seekers, his hated Slaaneshi enemies! Both of us managed to forget that Bound spells can't be boosted. #-o Shooting plinked away.

Image


Daemon Turn Two

The Flesh Hounds arrived behind the Phoenix Guard, threatening a turn three charge on these, the RBT in the small tower or the Archers. The Beasts failed a charge on the Sea Guard and shuffled forwards, the Plaguebearers and Furies in close attendance. Horrors and Bloodletters stayed put on the left. In the centre, the Flamers and Skillcannon edged round the big tower to target the Griffon. Bolt of Change put a wound on the Flamespyre, shooting likewise on the Griffon.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:59 am 
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Second turn and the Griffon is already toast - no way it can survive any round of combat with one wound. That means you should be safe from any thunderstomping. I'd take the Ring of Fury in every game if it could do 4D6 hits :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:15 am 
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you indeed look like you're in a good position. You opponents troops are arriving one at a time. Which is what you hope for against HE. The only useful thing the griffon can really do this battle (with 1 wound left) is hide and hope to survive. Perhaps run down some fleeing units. But other then that I agree with RE.Lee. It's toast.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:50 pm 
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I agree, pretty much guys. My opponent has three issues here I think:

1) Getting his Swordmasters and cavalry into the game.
2) The Griffon.
3) What does he do about the Beasts?

The first point is pretty straightforward. You will see soon about the second! As for the Beasts, perhaps he can block them with the PG and sacrifice his Archers to delay the Plaguebearers. But he didn't.

HE Turn Three

The Griffon charged the Skillcannon! Swordmasters and cavalry headed for the centre. Phoenix Guard charged the Plaguebearers. The Flamespyre flew over the Beasts, putting a wound on and landing behind them. My opponent hoped to add shooting damage and whittle them down. Ring of Fury killed a Flamer. Shooting was indeed effective, removing one Beast and leaving another on a single wound. Despite Swooping Strike, the Griffon failed to wound the cannon, which returned the favour and Daemonic Instability was passed comfortably. The PG similarly failed to dent the Plaguebearers but lost four models and (lacking a re-roll) ran and were run down!

Image



Daemon Turn Three

Horrors and Furies moved into better positions, while the Beasts charged the Sea Guard. Due to a lucky Winds roll the Flamespyre was down to S4 so the Bloodletters charged it. The Plaguebearers made hay by assaulting the RBT in the tower. Flesh Hounds charged the Archers but these legged it and escaped. Keen to score 2 VP's, I charged the Griffon's flank with the Flamers. Adding insult to injury I threw in Curse of the Leper, reducing it's Toughness. It duly died and the Flamers Overran while the PB's destroyed the RBT. Crucially, the Sea Guard failed to kill the Beast that was on one wound and the three amigos did plenty of damage, the LSG holding on Steadfast. The Bloodletters put a couple of wounds on the Flamespyre, it broke and rather unluckily, was caught. Quite a turn:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:11 pm 
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Quite the beating right there, now time to harvest all those ripe VPs :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:16 pm 
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A great turn, no question!

:)

HE Turn Four

Dragon Princes charged Flamers while the Archers rallied. Reavers and Swordmasters kept advancing. Ring of Fury killed a bunch of Bloodletters, despite the 3+ Ward. There was nothing left to shoot with! The DP's ran over the Flamers and the Sea Guard just about hung on.

Image



Daemon Turn Four

The Skillcannon advanced out of enemy charge arc. Other units turned to face. The Sea Guard suffered Curse of the Leper and were routed and run down.

Image



That was all we had time for!

8-4 win.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:55 am 
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Congrats on the win. It read like a fun game. A few unexpected / lucky events in there. But overal it played out as expected. Your opponents made a few mistakes along the way and you played well and took full advantage of the opportunities given.

Did you only get to turn 4 because you were both slow players or was it overall a short game time?

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Congrats on the win.

Thanks Rod.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Did you only get to turn 4 because you were both slow players

Yes. As previously mentioned, I get 5 or 6 turns in vs average or fast tournament players. My previous event saw 4 1/2, 5, 6 turns in the three games. But none of my opponents this time were tournament regulars (which isn't to say they were bad players) and this definitely had an impact. Like most 8th edition events these days, things were laid back. Each game, the player with more VP's scored 3 Tournament Points and the other guy 1 TP, so the VP total became essentially a tie-breaker. In none of these games would more turns have changed the win/loss.

Debrief

So why did I win? As discussed, I think deployment gave me an edge, with my combat units together and with clear targets in front of them. In contrast, my opponent needed to get his cavalry etc across the table and failing to initiate this turn one was a mistake. He may have overestimated the threat from the Seekers. I also think his not bringing a Battle Standard Bearer was an error, Phoenix Guard and Flamespyre might have held with re-rolls. I did have some luck in the combats but not outrageously so and I feel my units would have ground out wins in time anyway. Of course the opposing General failing a 2+ Ward save was helpful!

Bloodletters

Obviously, I was pleased with how these dealt with the Flamespyre. Despite the 2+ Ward, Skulltaker landed four wounds, one of which got through. Hatred re-rolls are really good, he had one set of four misses turn into four hits! The unit was roughly treated in game two but I asked too much of it and even then it put up a fight. Banner of Swiftness is important both to get +1 Strength for charging and to March into position more quickly. I feel the unit really needs Skulltaker's killing power and his Magic Resistance 2 was surprisingly useful. Objectively, it's too expensive for what you get but it's functional and it's my best looking unit!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:10 pm 
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All The Tools
Game Two - High Elves


Archmage, Lvl 4 Shadow, Stuff
Mage, Lvl 2 Fire, Dispel Scroll
BSB, World Dragon

20 Spears, Full Command
17 Archers, Full Command
5 Reavers, Spear & Bow
5 Reavers, Spear & Bow

20 White Lions, Full Command
21 Phoenix Guard, Full Command
5 Shadow Warriors

2 RBT

Thoughts on the match-up?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:01 am 
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Thats quite a harder list!

Those two elite infantry units are clearly the main threat. They can dish out a lot of damage themselves and can synergize well with the Lore of Shadow, so you'll have to watch out for that. The BotWD might be a problem, too - I wonder where the BSB will be deployed.

On the other hand the army is rather slow - apart from the Reavers there is also little to control your movement. The 2 RBTs are decent ranged support but the magic phase is focused on supporting combat rather than dealing damage. The Fire Mage is probably there to help with that problem, though its a rather weak lore on a level 2 dude. You might want to look out for any Pit of Shades shenaningans - whats the Initiative on those Beasts?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:22 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Thats quite a harder list!

I agree RE, it's a well-constructed list.

Basically, it's a classic 2-elite block defensive list. We could argue that the presence of the Spears (instead of more Archers) leaves it a little light on shooting but the strong magic phase makes up for that. We know that Shadow is a powerful Lore and Fire is IMHO a good pick here because it provides the solid Magic Missile that Shadow lacks. It has double Reavers in Core so it doesn't need Eagles. It is indeed slow but the ranged power compensates for that.

RE.Lee wrote:
You might want to look out for any Pit of Shades shenaningans - whats the Initiative on those Beasts?

In general HE shooting is good vs Daemons because they lack armour and Shadow magic is great against them. Nurgle stuff is mostly Initiative 2 (so Pit is dangerous) and Withering is very nasty. Interestingly my opponent rolled a double and had to choose between the two. He went for Withering, correctly I believe, as it's a threat to virtually everything I've got. I would normally hope to mitigate World Dragon by feeding it my cheaper units but here each time costs me a VP. On the plus side, he does have several small units I can hope to kill for VP's of my own.

Still, I consider this a -1 match-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:10 pm 
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Pre-game and Deployment

Archmage: Miasma, Enfeebling, Withering, Mindrazor
Mage: Fireball, Burning Head

Horrors: Firestorm
Herald: Blue Fire, Bolt of Change
General: Fleshy Abundance

Image

First we have my opponent's units opposite my centre-left (he left both the extreme left and right wings empty). Just out of shot on the left (on a hill) is an RBT. Then the White Lions with BSB and Mage with a unit of Reavers behind. Next the Phoenix Guard, then the Archers with Archmage, back slightly. Then Spears, then the second RBT.

Image

Here we see part of the last shot then Shadow Warriors in the wood and the second Reavers.

Image

In this shot of my right we can just see the tip of the Shadow Warrior wood at the top and opposite the house. I have Seekers on my far right, then Flamers, with Skulltaker and his Bloodletters behind. The Beasts are to the left of the house.

Image

Here we see my centre, Beasts as before, the Skillcannon deployed back. Plaguebearers to it's left, screened by Furies. The Horrors and their Herald are off-shot, being the only unit I deployed on the left.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:21 am 
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That's a tough list for you. Changing the spears for more archers would have made it stronger. Spears don't offer much that archers don't also have. Especially when there are already two big blocks of infantry on the table. It would have given the list more options in either playing defensive of going on the offence.

As for fire on the lvl2. It's not a bad lore. But it's not the strongest either I think. I personally probably would have picked metal. The list has enough low S attacks, while the metal default is killer against high armour stuff. This list can suffer a but against armoured units, since only the WL are really suited to deal with them. The RBT are a bit too unreliable for the job of keeping a cav list honest I think.

In a normal VP situation you would be in trouble. In the current one, you have a decent chance if you can pick up the easy points and not lose too much in the process.

Both deployments make sense. He has the upper hand on paper. And as such can be more aggressive. And at the same time he doesn't want to have any of those infantry units stranded at the wrong side of the board. So going for a central deployment makes sense. The SW could have been a bit more aggressive perhaps. Though there isn't much direct need to do so. And in the VP situation of the tournament they perhaps would have been too easy to score points off.

Refuse flank is more or less the default option when you need to be a bit more careful. I am wondering if perhaps the seekers would have benefited from a more central deployment. The game will show if that's the case I guess.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:37 am 
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Some interesting points Rod.

Prince of Spires wrote:
That's a tough list for you. Changing the spears for more archers would have made it stronger. Spears don't offer much that archers don't also have. Especially when there are already two big blocks of infantry on the table. It would have given the list more options in either playing defensive of going on the offence.

Agreed.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As for fire on the lvl2. It's not a bad lore. But it's not the strongest either I think. I personally probably would have picked metal. The list has enough low S attacks, while the metal default is killer against high armour stuff. This list can suffer a but against armoured units, since only the WL are really suited to deal with them. The RBT are a bit too unreliable for the job of keeping a cav list honest I think.

Metal is not a bad choice I agree. This was a decision in Dark Elf Shadow lists for a long time, go for Fire or Metal as the support. It probably comes down to the lists you're expecting to face. For example, there was a Warriors of Chaos army at the tournament with it's Skullcrushers and there you want Metal. But there was also a Lizardman army and there you want Fire for the massed Skinks. Now 2 RBT (it's 2000pts of course), White Lions and Mindrazor put up a decent fight against WoC and 30 BS4 shots likewise vs the Lizards. But each could do with a little help.

Prince of Spires wrote:
In a normal VP situation you would be in trouble. In the current one, you have a decent chance if you can pick up the easy points and not lose too much in the process.

Agreed.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Both deployments make sense. He has the upper hand on paper. And as such can be more aggressive. And at the same time he doesn't want to have any of those infantry units stranded at the wrong side of the board. So going for a central deployment makes sense. The SW could have been a bit more aggressive perhaps. Though there isn't much direct need to do so. And in the VP situation of the tournament they perhaps would have been too easy to score points off.

It might not be obvious from the photos but the White Lions have quite a trek to reach my combat units, they should be more central I believe. Not only can I not hope to beat them, I have to be very careful fighting combats anywhere near them, with the prospect of their intervention in a turn or two. As things stand I can attack reasonably securely on the right, so I feel I have slightly the better of deployment.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Refuse flank is more or less the default option when you need to be a bit more careful. I am wondering if perhaps the seekers would have benefited from a more central deployment. The game will show if that's the case I guess.

Seekers Vanguard and are M10. Stay tuned Spires!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:56 pm 
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HE Turn One

My opponent won the first turn and...sat still. Magic saw big Miasma take one point off four characteristics (notably Movement) on the Beasts. Shooting killed a brace of Furies.

Image

Daemon Turn One

I too stayed pretty static in the centre, the Horrors inching forwards on my left to get into spell range. On the right though the Beasts advanced and Skulltaker led the Bloodletters forward at full speed. The Flamers swept up to the front edge of the wood. I'd been a little cautious with Vanguard on the Seekers, with the result that they now couldn't March past the Reavers' charge arc as I'd been hoping. I came forward anyway, offering the enemy a frontal charge in the hope of killing one or two first with warpflame. Magic saw Blue Fire put a wound on the left RBT. The Skillcannon missed but the Flamers excelled themselves. Being inaccurate with a random number of shots they often achieve little. But this time they really went to town, vapourizing the whole unit of Reavers!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:29 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seekers Vanguard and are M10. Stay tuned Spires!

Ah. That changes things. Though it also means your opponent indeed didn't deploy his SW correctly. They could have fairly easily stopped the Seekers from vanguarding. They'd still be M10, but they would need a lot more time to get where they would want to be. Especially since he's apparently not moving a lot, it could have made a serious difference.

SpellArcher wrote:
HE Turn One
My opponent won the first turn and...sat still. Magic saw big Miasma take one point off four characteristics (notably Movement) on the Beasts. Shooting killed a brace of Furies.

:shock: :-s

That's ... unexpected

Your opponent has some ranged superiority, but not of the level that doing nothing wins him the game. Feels like he's playing it safe and aiming for a narrow win. I could be wrong of course. But you're on his weak flank. Standing still more or less offers you the reavers, SW, RBT, spearmen and archers + general. Should be enough to secure a win.

I think I would have at least moved up the WL, moved the PG slightly forward and angled both towards the center. This would have created a bit a pincer battle line with hints of the battle of Cannae. It would have forced you to either go full on on the offensive or play very cautiously. Now, while you still have to be careful of the WL (and PG, they're no pushovers), you can dominate the right flank and you only have to deal with part of his army. I don't think his infantry is fast enough to quickly arrive where they are needed. Unless he has some masterplan I don't see of course.

Sounds like you're in a good spot. At least, given my feeling for the matchup, things are looking up for you.

Rod

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