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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:13 pm 
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Two metal Heralds sound fun, I've always liked that lore ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Thanks guys.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It's an interesting list. That's a lot of solid drops for a 1500pts (+ reinforcements) list. The shooting with the skillcannon and the hellcannon is nasty if you're facing any single models. Not really any weak parts to pick on. It might be a bit on the slow side, but not more so then your usual demon lists. And the number of drops you have should compensate for that.


Daemons do MSU very well because issues like Panic and Break tests worry them less than most armies. Some of the most competitive lists at the ETC's for example have been MSU. The slight issue here is that I'm not maxing out on Beasts and Drones, arguably necessary to provide the punch otherwise supplied by fighting characters. But as mentioned, the extra shooting gives things a slightly different slant. While the list retains some combat strength there would be more times where defending would pay off.

RE.Lee wrote:
Two metal Heralds sound fun, I've always liked that lore


Prince of Spires wrote:
Why dual metal on the mages?


Typically, an army wants access to most spells from at least one Lore. If you have four for example, that gives you a 90% chance of bowling any specific spell. A level 4 wizard gives you this and +4 to casting and dispelling of course. For Daemons, that Level 4 has to be an expensive Monster, not easily compatible with the MSU ethos. A common answer is to field all-Horror Core, usually 4 units of 10. The Lore of Tzeentch (while powerful) is a little inflexible though and Horrors only dispel at +1. Several Hero picks can be wizards but only Tzeentch can upgrade to level 2, with the +2 to dispel and of course spell volume that brings. Their choices are Tzeentch Lore (which the Horrors have covered) or Metal. This is especially good because many Daemon units cap out at S4 and need help tackling armour. It's also a flexible Lore of course, with buffs, nukes etc.. If the foe fails to bring armour, Nurgle troops have a slew of Poison.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Question remains how much you're allowed to change stuff like character equipment when escalating to higher points. And what you would like to end up with as a 2500pts list. At the moment I'm working off the assumption you're aiming for the 2500pts list from your last tourney. But assuming that you are allowed to change stuff around on characters as much as you want and that you are indeed going for that 2500pts list then I think this is a solid army. And actually surprisingly allround, combined arms for only 1900pts. Good shooting, nice combat and some decent magic.


I'm assuming that magic levels, gifts etc can be added to characters in succeeding lists Rod but not taken away. I'm also assuming that Lores have to remain the same. As said, the issue with the MSU list is combat. That can be addressed at higher points but I probably don't have the models to do so in MSU style. In contrast, the first list I posted can be cleanly boosted until it resembles the armies I've brought up til now. But that comes with two downsides MSU doesn't have, the vulnerability of the Monster Lord and over-reliance on Infantry/Locus combos. What to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Bloodletter WIP

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:03 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
In contrast, the first list I posted can be cleanly boosted until it resembles the armies I've brought up til now. But that comes with two downsides MSU doesn't have, the vulnerability of the Monster Lord and over-reliance on Infantry/Locus combos. What to do?

I now suspect splitting Gifts is worth a try on the Keeper. So he loses the Eternal Blade but has chances to pick up defensive bonuses. The Locus thing is commital but it makes the Core infantry very functional and is a bit of a defining feature for my list. The MSU is interesting and competitive but not quite my style perhaps. 2000pts (plus allies):


Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 1 Slaanesh, 50pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Lichebone Pennant
10 Daemonettes, Musician

4 Beasts
5 Furies, Slaanesh
3 Fiends

Skillcannon

10 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Gleaming Pennant, Musician
Hellcannon


So the Keeper picks up a 50pt Gift. The Daemonettes are semi-disposable and will be boosted to a fighting unit in the final 500pts. Until then the Fiends ensure the list has sufficient muscle. The Skillcannon is so good there is only so long I can leave it out. The Daemonettes will need Eternal Flame in the final list, so the Chaos Dwarfs switch to Gleaming Pennant. I have just ordered them!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:20 am 
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Voila!

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These guys look fantastic in the flesh, they're so nice, really pleased. Even managed to rank them up!

http://www.titanwargames.com

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:12 am 
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Really lovely models! You done right to get them, old son. And congrats on ranking them up. Doesn't look like it was too much bother.


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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:43 pm 
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Thanks Paul.

As said, very impressive when you eyeball them, some of John Blake's best work. I used some bases with a horizontal slot and some with a diagonal, really helped to rank everything up. The shooting guys in the back rank are at a slight angle but they scan alright. The standard bearer and musician are slightly bigger but they space OK if you're careful. The models come with a choice of gun-ends, either blunderbuss or musket. I actually left both off, giving a sort of carbine look. I think this makes sense because Chaos Dwarf Fireglaives are shorter ranged than Handguns but can be fired on the move.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:38 pm 
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Oh, those look great! Bit on the slim side for a dwarf, but fantastic models. They look quite easy to paint, too, so I hope to see them in colour soon! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:55 am 
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Thanks RE.

As said, even better close up. I know what you mean, I've got some Great Weapon guys from the same range and they look much bulkier. Partly having gun and arms away from the body perhaps? Yeah, I think my painting style can cope with them but there's so much metal I can't just go crazy with Hashut Copper. Colours are really important because this'll be the first unit of a new army.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:13 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Colours are really important because this'll be the first unit of a new army.


Toughest decision for any hobbyist :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:28 pm 
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Seriously RE, I'm going to agonise at length!

:mrgreen:

In other news I've discovered that the three lists (1500, 2000, 2500, each with bonus units) for my upcoming tournament do not have to keep the same units. So I could field Plaguebearers at 1500 but drop them from the 2000pt roster, if I wished. I've now cracked a 1500pt (plus extras) list without Lord but keeping the full Nurgle block:


General, Lvl 2 Tzeentch, Conjuration Locus
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, 50pt Gift, Regen Locus

10 Horrors, FC, Lichebone Pennant
19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician

4 Beasts
3 Fiends
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
5 Furies, Tzeentch

10 Fireglaives, Musician, Eternal Flame
Hellcannon


Exalted Locus of Conjuration gives +1 Strength to spells cast by the Herald or his unit. I've a good feeling about this list and am minded to take it to the event. Comments welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:23 pm 
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A List To Conjure With

The MSU list I posted earlier is interesting and viable but it has a couple of drawbacks. Firstly, the Horrors are it's only viable Tzeentch bunker, meaning both Heralds have to sit in the same, potentially vulnerable, unit. Secondly, it lacks a really solid block that I can rely on to slug it out with the enemy. Maybe that's what differentiates MSU from Combined Arms and is why I prefer the latter. So I lose the Skillcannon which obviously hits firepower, the Seekers which are a redirector and light assault unit and the second Tzeentch Herald. Essentially, I trade some flexibility for the grind.

Running Lore of Tzeentch on the General means I have three dice (with the Horrors) at that Lore. These give a 70% chance of rolling Treason, which of course hits Ld tests very hard. Combined with a Hellcannon, which easily causes Panic tests at -1, it's deadly. I've wanted to try out the Locus for ages. Given that the rest of the Lore's spells have Strength values this looks promising. Especially on a template spell like Firestorm. Lichebone Pennant gives the bunker a 4+ Ward vs spells, re-rolling 1's.

This is backed up by a magic level on the BSB, so a third Channel and fourth spell. I'm toying with the idea of replacing his defensive Gift with Razor Standard. Clearly, 15 Plaguebearers, decent as they are, are not a patch on 19 with Regen from the BSB. Rolling 4+ saves, again and again, compared to 5+, is a huge difference. While not unkillable, this is a unit I can be aggressive with and which, in combination, magnifies the threat from my Beasts. I like this list because the synergies from the Heralds are strong and as mentioned, that's something of a signature for my army.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Closing in on the Bloodletters:

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Pondering Skulltaker...

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:26 am 
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Those horns greenish?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:25 pm 
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Yes indeed RE. It's pushing the boat out a bit but one of the problems painting a Daemon army is that the four gods have traditionally distinct colours. Getting those to gel and present a unified look to the army is a huge challenge. Basing helps. My plan has been for each god to 'borrow' a colour from one or both of the two he doesn't hate, so Khorne could use Tzeentch's turquoise but not Slaanesh's white. I've actually gone for Nurgle's green.

On the Nurgle models, the (fairly bright) green is darkened by a brown wash, giving it a dirty look. I wanted to avoid this on Khorne, so ensured no large green patches and used black to break it up. It is a bit funky with the traditional reddish tones of the blood god but it certainly gives that contrast I was keen to find.

Musician

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:16 pm 
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So, sadly my next tournament has been cancelled, though I have some options:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=69855

On the plus side...

Image

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:00 am 
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Great looking unit. Suitably chaotic :) And a good choice of colors, I think it will match the rest of your army nicely.

A pity about the tournament. It happens unfortunately. Good luck with finding a new option.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Great looking unit. Suitably chaotic

Thanks Rod. I had the four blisters of old metal Bestigor plus various other bits and I thought 'let's do this!". Occasionally I've found myself envying Warriors of Chaos players because they have so many modelling options. But command figures and especially Heralds do let you try some stuff. There are upsides to all-infantry Core!

Prince of Spires wrote:
And a good choice of colors, I think it will match the rest of your army nicely.

Thanks again. I feel I've been able to keep the reddish tones of Khorne and still get away with the bold green contrast. The models have more equipment sculpted on than most of the army which plays to my strengths, picking out details in varying colours to give a sophisticated effect, rather than having to use advanced painting techniques I lack the skill for. The banner was really helpful for this. I'm still not convinced the unit's any good on the table but I like it and I'm going to use it!

:)

Prince of Spires wrote:
A pity about the tournament. It happens unfortunately. Good luck with finding a new option.

Yes, a bit of a blow. Worcester in early October is looking the most likely now.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:06 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Thanks again. I feel I've been able to keep the reddish tones of Khorne and still get away with the bold green contrast. The models have more equipment sculpted on than most of the army which plays to my strengths, picking out details in varying colours to give a sophisticated effect, rather than having to use advanced painting techniques I lack the skill for. The banner was really helpful for this. I'm still not convinced the unit's any good on the table but I like it and I'm going to use it!

At least it's a comfort to know painted models always outperform non-painted ones on the tabletop ;) The dice gods do favor paint..

Of course, this does call for an army shot. :) I'm always ambivalent about using less well performing models. I always want to try out newly painted models. But for instance with my flamespire I always feel like I'm handicapping myself by putting it on the table.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:49 pm 
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Great unit - that red/beige/gold combination always works. A tuft here and there would work wonders for the bases I think ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
At least it's a comfort to know painted models always outperform non-painted ones on the tabletop The dice gods do favor paint..

As someone once said, "If you don't love them enough to paint them, why should they love you enough to fight for you?"

:)

Prince of Spires wrote:
Of course, this does call for an army shot. I'm always ambivalent about using less well performing models. I always want to try out newly painted models. But for instance with my flamespire I always feel like I'm handicapping myself by putting it on the table.

My experience of the HE book is that if you bring stuff like World Dragon and a Frostheart, you can get away with some LSG say or some Shadow Warriors. I already have the Beasts and the Skillcannon to put the fear of god into opponents!

RE.Lee wrote:
Great unit - that red/beige/gold combination always works. A tuft here and there would work wonders for the bases I think

Thanks RE. Unfortunately I'd have to rebase the whole army. I'm currently repainting the Flesh Hounds, Khorne is displeased with their existing grey colour scheme.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:51 pm 
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Flesh Hound

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:51 am 
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Nice! Is that a Citadel model? #-o

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:25 pm 
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Thank you RE!

Yes it is. Remember the Beastman Special Character Khazrak the One-eye? Originally at least he came with a special Chaos Hound called Red Maw. I liked it, so I mail ordered six! I feel it has a somewhat reptilian look that fits with being a Flesh Hound. More:

Image

In other news I'm still hoping to play a tournament in the near future. No word on a date for Northampton yet and the date for Loughborough is bad for me unfortunately. I am hopeful of Worcester on October the 9th!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:03 pm 
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My gods, you're right! Haven't seen that model for a while - nice recycling there! ;)

Good luck with the tournament - what rules is it using?

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:00 am 
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Nice looking fleshhounds. They are indeed more interesting then the real ones.

As for your tournaments, they do have interesting place names in the UK. It always reads a bit like places in a fantasy novel. Loughborough could easily be located between Hobbiton and Tuckborough...

;)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Nice looking fleshhounds. They are indeed more interesting then the real ones.

Thanks Rod. Mono pose of course but there's a pleasing sharpness to them I feel.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As for your tournaments, they do have interesting place names in the UK. It always reads a bit like places in a fantasy novel. Loughborough could easily be located between Hobbiton and Tuckborough...

Loughborough is actually a university town in the East Midlands, known for it's sports degrees. Tolkien's Shire was very much based on the rural England he grew up in, so the names reflect that. Dorset and Somerset (among other counties) have some wonderful place names. Chipping Sodbury, Toller Porcorum, Melton Constable etc..

Tournament pack here RE:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B59B_J ... Bwams/view

I have PayPalled the cash!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:33 am 
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Pure 8th edition then, wonder what the meta is right now ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:55 pm 
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The Metagame

Good question RE! It seems that there are actually more points for painting than playing at the Worcester event, though around half are a gimme. As mentioned, there are other 8th edition events around but formats vary quite a bit. I think in general, guys are playing because they love 8th edition now, rather than to win as such. The Worcester pack really encourages good-looking armies and terrain too. In British terms this is something of a throwback to when I started playing Warhammer tournaments, I certainly remember some amazing armies back then.

All of that said, we would still rather win than lose of course! The Worcester event is no End Times and no 50% Lords and Heroes. Looking back, I suspect this favours fast, shooty lists like Dark Elves and Wood Elves. The latter in particular were hamstrung by character-heavy WoC and HE lists for example under 50% L&H. In the absence of those, avoidance lists look strong, especially at 2000pts on a 6 by 4 table.

Happily, Daemons should remain competitive as they are just so hard to kill and have all sorts of side benefits, like the Warpflame rule. Magic Missiles are especially useful vs elves and so are Flamers. Beasts are fairly rapid and demand to be dealt with. The key may be to get the slower infantry into action and prevent the enemy simply shooting the smaller elements down. Magic also looks important as units like Doomfire Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn really ramp up the threat there.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:32 pm 
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2000 Points

SpellArcher wrote:
Daemon Prince, Chaos Armour, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift

18 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
15 Bloodletters, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
3 Flamers
5 Furies, Slaanesh

Skillcannon

1999


This is the 2000pt list I drafted a little while ago. It's as good a starting point as any. It basically revolves around the Core. My Plaguebearers and Bloodletters come together sensibly to around 500pts. Tactically I'd prefer the Horrors but I don't have enough to hit 500. Also, I did spend a fair old time painting the 'letters so I'd like to use them! The lack of Tzeentch pushes me towards the Daemon Prince as the only way to then get some decent magic into the list. The Nurgle BSB really ramps up the Plaguebearers and I know I want Nurgle Beasts. He's a helpful support wizard too. The rest of the list is more straightforward. Four Beasts are a no-brainer, as are the Furies and the Skillcannon. I want BS shooting for elves etc which means Flamers. Given I'm re-painting my Flesh Hounds I'd like to use these but the Fiends fit the points better and are probably stronger.

As an aside, which do you guys feel is more important on the Nurgle Herald, if I had to choose? Regen Locus for the Plaguebearers or BSB to give re-rolls to the PB's and Beasts (only)?

Thoughts welcome...

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