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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:45 am 
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Green Istari

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Turn Two

The free Giant rolled big and slammed into my Flamers on the right:

Image

A unit of Gutter Runners popped up behind my left. The Hexed Doomwheel inched forwards. Warpgale got through again. Slingshot failed to penetrate the Skillcannon's armour, while both (wounded) Giants went down to Warp Lightning from the wheels.

The Horrors approached the left Doomwheel whilst the Plaguebearers Reformed to face the Gutter Runners. Gateway was scrolled but the right Doomwheel was Hexed again. The Skillcannon, on a roll, took out the closer Doomwheel.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:57 am 
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Turn Three

The second unit of Gutter Runners appeared behind my right. The first unit slipped round the side of the Plaguebearers. The Doomwheel inched forwards again. Warpgale again and then two wounds shot off my Keeper, while Warp Lightning killed a couple of Furies.

I shuffled stuff around to counter the Gutters but didn't kill a lot this turn:

Image

Image

After these shots I moved my Keeper to the right and wheeled the Fiends around to trap the Gutter Runners. The Beasts turned to face the other Gutters. I also managed to cast Hysterical Frenzy on the right Gutters.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:22 am 
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Turn Four

The left Gutters swung around to take their chances with the Fiends, while the right unit passed it's Frenzy check and turned to persecute the Keeper. The Fiends were left on five wounds, the KoS on one!

Image

Image

But now charges went in from the Fiends and Beasts. The left Gutters had nowhere to run, the right were Frenzied, so couldn't! Both units went down:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:08 am 
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Turn Five

Not much happened. The bulk of the Skaven army was sat in it's deployment zone and we knew we didn't have time for both turns 6. I figured I was on for a moderate win but hadn't realized my opponent would get VP's for killing the Giants!

11-9

Comments welcome...

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:57 pm 
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Poor Gutter Runners - should have disappeared in a puff of smoke ;)

The Skaven were well equipped to kill the Giants, so those were some easy VPs for them. There didn't semm to be much fighting going on, at all. Was this because of the giants or was that just how both of you wanted to play the game? Anyway, your win wasn't a suprise though, for reasons mentioned earlier ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:18 pm 
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Debrief

RE.Lee wrote:
Was this because of the giants

Yes RE. At least on my part. I'd pretty much decided before the event that if I drew a shootier opponent for this game I would hide. Battle for the Pass is already awkward. The Giant house rules, though random, let the active player choose the direction the Giant moved. An obstacle too far for the attacking player. As I mentioned, my opponent's list, with the Rares and Dreaded 13th made things even worse. For his part, my opponent feared my magic and combat power.

My first Skaven opponent said after the game that she took one look at the Doomwheels and thought "dead giants". From my point of view, these helped me by slowing the Doomwheels down. Obviously, I got really lucky with both the WLC's going down early. But I still had my hands full with the wheels, Giants and especially, the Gutter Runners. I feel my opponent should have pushed his main block into Dreaded 13th range, then stopped and used the Slaves etc to buy himself casts. I don't think I could have countered that effectively with the other issues going on.

What I hadn't planned on, was the deadliness of the Gutter Runners for the Keeper. My opponent was no fool and targeted him immediately, as mentioned he finished the game on one wound. The decisive shooting phase saw four wounds put on (he had three remaining). I made two out of four 5+ Wards to keep him alive and prevent a 655 VP swing! Hysterical Frenzy was vital to back this up because it let the Beasts finish this threat immediately. Going after the Keeper cost my opponent the Gutters in the end but could easily have netted him a solid win here.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:13 am 
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Lord Choice

What this game highlighted was the vulnerability of the Keeper to certain things. As a Lvl 4 Monster, he doesn't come cheap and can't claim Look out Sir. The main issue with that is cannons. Usually the Monstrous Beasts help by screening but that doesn't work vs the Skaven version. The Gutter Runners, able to come on behind him and pepper him with poisoned shots are also very bad news. Add in the scenario here and things look bleak.

On the one hand, we can look on this as a perfect storm. Cannons happen, poisoned shooting happens, difficult scenarios happen but rarely all at once. The other two games were fairly comfortable for him and hey, with a little luck he survived this one. His magic helps (here Hysterical Frenzy on the Gutters but also Aquiescence on cannons for example). But games like this make it worth at least considering life without him.

One option is to field a Daemon Prince. Firstly, he can buy a 4+ Armour save, which helps big time with Gutter Runners, elves, skinks etc.. Secondly, wings. The Keeper is M10 but no Swiftstride and can't charge over things, so is more easily redirected. On the downside, the DP has -1 Toughness and Wounds compared to the Keeper, so is generally considered a weaker choice. Worth a run out though perhaps.

More drastic is to drop the Lord entirely. The first issue would be losing the magic, the second, losing the combat power. Many Lord-less lists deal with these by using Metal Heralds, which are especially effective against the armour the Keeper normally deals with. Remaining points would need to be spent on solid combat troops though. I'd like the Flesh Hounds back but it probably boils down to Monstrous Beasts in some form or other.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Meat Grinder
Game Three - Vampire Counts


Vampire Lord, Undead Horse, Lvl 4 Vamps, Red Fury, ASF, 2+ AS, 4+ Ward
Wight King, Undead Horse, stuff
Wight King, Undead Horse, stuff
Necromancer, Lvl 1 Vamps, stuff
Necromancer, Lvl 1 Vamps, stuff
Wraith

40 Ghouls, Champion
23 Zombies, Std, Musician
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

16 Black Knights, FC, Banner of the Barrows
8 Crypt Horrors
Spirit Host

I suspect my opponent had something nasty like Sword of Anti-heroes on his blender lord because he was later hitting R&F at his base S5. He told me he was thinking of bringing double Terrorgheist instead of Crypt Horrors to the event but feared cannon.

Thoughts on this list and the match-up welcome...

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:10 am 
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I like the Vampire list - there's good movement control with the wolves, some sturdy anvils and a magnificent hammer. Suprising to see 2 Wight Kings - they're probably my favouite thing in the book but I thought small vampires were a more popular choice as its all about dealing out the damage when it comes to the cav-bus.

As far as the matchup is concerned. All those poisoned attack might be a problem - that unit of 8 crypt horrors in particular present a challenge. I'm looking forward to seeing a grind between them and the beasts of nurgle ;) The vampires have a solid magic phase - bad news as controling the movement of the Bus would be a good idea (or are they immune anyway?).

All in all I'd say it might be quite a hard fight!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:56 pm 
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Thanks RE.

RE.Lee wrote:
Suprising to see 2 Wight Kings - they're probably my favouite thing in the book but I thought small vampires were a more popular choice as its all about dealing out the damage when it comes to the cav-bus.

I see what you mean. Wight Kings are cheaper, so it could be that, when you consider my opponent's packed Hero section. They're also more durable, gain +1 to hit from their banner and have Killing Blow. So do the Knights but the WK's can fight challenges, which might be useful. No BSB, my opponent obviously knows his army but I suspect I'd take one, if only for Swift Reforms, restraining Pursuit, March tests etc..

RE.Lee wrote:
I like the Vampire list - there's good movement control with the wolves, some sturdy anvils and a magnificent hammer.

It's a simple but focused list, isn't it? My job, as usual with combined arms vs a Deathstar, is to delay the Star, kill the support, then combo-charge the bus if I can.

RE.Lee wrote:
As far as the matchup is concerned. All those poisoned attack might be a problem - that unit of 8 crypt horrors in particular present a challenge. I'm looking forward to seeing a grind between them and the beasts of nurgle

Exactly. Poison is excellent against Nurgle stuff and I need to chew through those units before I tackle the bus. Not easy as they're very durable too.

RE.Lee wrote:
The vampires have a solid magic phase - bad news as controling the movement of the Bus would be a good idea (or are they immune anyway?).

I believe only Ethereals are immune to movement spells. Agree completely about the magic.

RE.Lee wrote:
All in all I'd say it might be quite a hard fight!

I thought so too and was apprehensive. I had this as a -1.


Pre-game and Deployment

Vampire Lord: Invocation, Vanhels, Hellish Vigour, Curse of Years
Necromancer: Invocation
Necromancer: Gaze of Nagash

Keeper: Aquiescence, Slicing Shards, Phantasmagoria, Choir
BSB: Blades of Putrefaction
Herald: Blue Fire, Bolt of Change
Horrors: Treason

Keeper: Eternal Blade
BSB: Fencers Blades
Herald: Sword of Might

So a pretty good repertoire for my opponent. I was missing Hysterical Frenzy (for the bus) and Gateway. Aquiescence, Choir and Blades of Putrefaction (Poison buff) were likely to be useful here.


VC Deployment - Left and Centre

Image

From my viewpoint, my opponent has Wolves on the left, behind the wood. Then the Ghoul Horde, which includes fillers and contains the Wraith. Behind it are the Spirit Host and the Zombies (with both Necromancers). More Wolves and then the bus, with mounted characters.

VC Deployment - Centre and Right

Image

So the bus again, then Wolves, Crypt Horrors, Wolves. A compact deployment, as much as possible within 12" of the Vamp Lord to enable Marching. Pretty textbook really, the bus well-positioned to head straight for me, flanks effectively protected by the Ghouls and Crypt Horrors.


Daemon Deployment - Left and Centre

Image

On my left we have the Horrors plus their Herald, fairly advanced to be in spell range. Next the Keeper, happily he did not have to worry about ranged attacks here. Then the cannon, further back. To it's right the Plaguebearers, central to ensure they impacted the game but far back to avoid contact with the bus too soon. In front the Furies, placed to redirect even turn one if necessary.

Daemon Deployment - Centre and Right

Image

We see the PB's and Furies again, then the Beasts. In front of them, at the top of the shot is some obstructing terrain. I was pretty sure this would split the bus and Crypt Horrors, the Beasts could counter either as required. Then the Daemonettes. The CH's had gone down early and I wanted my Flaming banner opposite them. Next my (non-Flaming) Flamers and out of shot far right, the Fiends.

My plan was clear, hang back left and centre, punch through on the right, then wrap around and come to the rescue.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:07 pm 
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Turn One

Perhaps crucially, I went first. Left and Centre stayed pretty static while the right wing advanced. Aquiescence on the bus was dispelled and Blue Fire killed a single Wolf. The Flamers rolled well and removed the right Wolves while the cannon fired a blank.

My opponent shoved the left Wolf units into my face and advanced with Ghouls and Zombies. Being cavalry, the bus came on further, the accompanying Wolves stopping in front of the Beasts. As predicted, the Crypt Horrors rounded the bad terrain. Magic didn't achieve much.

Left Wing - Part of Bus Visible

Image


Turn Two

Beasts charged Wolves. Daemonettes and Fiends combo-charged the CH's.

Image

I dropped the Furies in front of the bus as a speed bump and swung the Flamers in, looking to repeat the trick. The Keeper pivoted and Marched 20" directly right, switching flanks. My units otherwise held station. Blue Fire killed some more Wolves but shooting failed. The Beasts disposed of their opponents and Reformed at an angle to avoid a potential Overrun from the bus. Good dice helped win the Crypt Horror combat but it stuck of course. Here I was assisted by the Flaming ASF Daemonettes inflicting a wound, which then removed Regen before my Initiative 6 Fiends struck.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:55 pm 
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The bus charged the Furies, Wolves the Skillcannon. The Ghoul Horde marched aggressively towards the Beasts and the Spirit Host floated forwards. Magic achieved little. The Furies were summarily despatched, the bus Reforming to face the Beasts while a single Wolf was left fighting the Skillcannon. The Crypt Horrors were further ground down but held on.

Image


Turn Three

The Ghouls were charged frontally by the Beasts and in the flank by Plaguebearers. My opponent had thought both in the frontal arc so I offered to let him re-do his move but he declined. The Flamers redirected the bus, while the Keeper marched up to the CH combat. Choir was dispelled but Blue Fire removed the Spirit Host. The cannon disposed of it's Wolf. Nurgle hammered the Horde but it held and killed a Beast. Again, the Crypt Horrors hung on.

Bus charged Flamers while the Zombies (and Necromancers) moved closer to the action. Invocation topped up the Ghouls while Curse of Years went off with IF on the Plaguebearers. They shrugged it off for now while the Vamp Lord and a Necromancer took a wound each from the Miscast. Another Beast was killed but again the Ghouls were much reduced. The Flamers died, the bus Reforming once more. Just two Crypt Horrors survived leaving the Fiends out of combat. I'm not sure if we played that correctly.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:50 am 
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Crypt Horrors - what tough buggers they are! Hopefully you'll be able to deal with them before the Bus swings around. You've managed to contain it quite well so far, though the cost of the speedbumps is getting substantial...

Can't wait to see the finale!

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:28 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Can't wait to see the finale!

Thank you!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Crypt Horrors - what tough buggers they are! Hopefully you'll be able to deal with them before the Bus swings around. You've managed to contain it quite well so far, though the cost of the speedbumps is getting substantial...

T5 and 24 wounds. Happily I had an edge in static res to help me along. A lot of Daemon armies bring 3 x 5 Furies for plentiful cheap redirection. I like to squeeze more variety in but yes, it can get expensive. At least the Flamers disposed of some Wolves before their noble sacrifice.

Turn Four

Image

The Fiends once again charged the Crypt Horrors. The Skillcannon moved past the Plaguebearers while the Keeper ran around the back of the Crypt Horrors. Blades of Putrefaction on the Beasts was dispelled and the Keeper cast Choir to help finish off the CH's, forgetting to dispel the RIP Curse of Years on the Plaguebearers, some of whom died. A well-aimed cannonball took five Black Knights down. The Ghouls were finally destroyed, Beasts and Plaguebearers Reforming such that a bus charge on the former couldn't then Overrun into the latter. Crypt Horrors too went down, the Daemonettes Reforming, while the Fiends Overran, Slaanesh was coming good!

Image

Bus charged Beasts, the Zombies moving up alongside. The Beasts were duly removed by Daemonic Instability and the bus Reformed to face the Plaguebearers.

Image


Turn Five

The Horrors charged the Wolves (why not?). The Skillcannon charged the front of the Zombies, while the M10 Keeper went into their rear. Slaanesh's other minions encircled the bus. The Plaguebearers actually moved up to take it's charge but not before I'd sneaked the BSB out to safety. One wolf survived the suddenly savage Horrors, while Impact Hits, Thunderstomp, fourteen Attacks and the rear charge vapourized Zombies and Necromancers.

The bus duly charged the Plaguebearers but despite wholesale slaughter, a couple hung on to pin it, thanks to a cheekily low Daemonic Instability roll. Horrors killed their Wolf and Reformed.

Turn Six

To charge or not to charge, that was the question. I had the remnants of several units available but in the end decided the Vamp characters (with undisclosed nasty magic items) were too great an X factor and ran away. The bus finished off the Plaguebearers and Reformed.

The poor Fiends were charged and dismembered and that was that.

13-7

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:37 am 
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Nice job! You've had some luck there with the Plaguebearers holding (would it have made much of a difference had they failed that test?) but that was already a good position to win. Dropping 5 Black Knights with a single cannon shot was impressive, too. Skills ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:05 am 
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Congrats on the win. It does pay to bring plenty of sacrificial units. :) You really managed to deal with your opponents army in pieces, which is always a good thing. Not getting the bus and having to sacrifice a lot of units to prevent it from really doing much damage means it's not a big win. But it sounds like a well deserved one (and 13-7 is nothing to complain about).

I was wondering, wouldn't the vampires have to disclose magic items once they hit combat? After all, they swing with a weapon, they would have to disclose what it was when doing so.

All in all, great game. The report reads like a classic 'how to deal with a death star with a combined arms list.' Great execution. Thanks for sharing.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:09 pm 
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Debrief

Thanks again guys.

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
You've had some luck there with the Plaguebearers holding (would it have made much of a difference had they failed that test?) but that was already a good position to win.

As things went I had the opportunity to rear charge the bus turn six. If the PB's had died, my opponent would have Reformed to prevent this. But he wouldn't have been able to Reform after my last move, in my combat phase. So given that I chose to disengage, the Plaguebearers hanging on kind of helped him.

RE.Lee wrote:
Dropping 5 Black Knights with a single cannon shot was impressive, too. Skills

Playing against double Skillcannon has always been a headache RE. But singles always seem to blow up against me without doing much. My one though, has been great! It's yet to self-destruct and achieves something almost every game. It really adds value.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It does pay to bring plenty of sacrificial units.

I've seen many Daemon players state they would never leave home without 2x5 Furies. I prefer to add Flamers and Seekers for example because they can do more than just die on demand. I'm kind of missing the Seekers, the Fiends are 195pts which is a bit pricey.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I was wondering, wouldn't the vampires have to disclose magic items once they hit combat? After all, they swing with a weapon, they would have to disclose what it was when doing so.

Probably so Rod. But we were going fast to get six turns in and I'd kind of written off the Plaguebearers so just let my opponent call numbers and roll dice. The redirectors I'd simply removed without making him roll! I'm pretty sure he had the Nightshroud in there at least.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The report reads like a classic 'how to deal with a death star with a combined arms list.

I'm humbled. I made some mistakes, like forgetting to dispel Curse of Years but they weren't huge.

Prince of Spires wrote:
You really managed to deal with your opponents army in pieces, which is always a good thing.

While the dice were helpful I think this was also down to board control. My opponent had no shooting and little damage magic, which meant vulnerable elements like redirectors and the Keeper could range free. In contrast I had the Flamers and magic missiles to keep down the Spirit Host and Wolves. I also think my opponent could have made more of a nuisance of those Wolves, perhaps redirecting the Plaguebearers.

In particular I think allowing me the front and flank charge on the Ghoul Horde was too ambitious. They held for a while but I was able to fend off the bus until I'd dealt with both them and the Crypt Horrors, which was the gameplan really. If the Ghouls had held back they'd probably still have been functional by the time the bus broke through. Against Undead particularly, it can pay I've found to kill them a bit at a time, engaging across the line can see you overwhelmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:17 pm 
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Implications

In a way, game three showed my list working pretty much as intended. I was able to combo-charge both support blocks (Ghouls and Crypt Horrors) and destroy these, while fending off the bus. The combination of ASF and Flaming attacks from the Daemonettes proved crucial in dealing with the Regenerating CH's, especially in combination with the more robust Fiends. While these weren't amazing this tournament they were solid and I'm inclined to keep them in if I can (though I need to Combat Reform them to maximise Attacks in future!). Game one showed the vulnerable side of the Daemonettes though. For my next event, I'm inclined to use Bloodletters instead. These will run without a Herald to minimise potential losses from Dreaded 13th etc.. I could well be playing at 2000pts:

Daemon Prince, Chaos Armour, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift

18 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
15 Bloodletters, FC, Banner of Swiftness

4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
3 Flamers
5 Furies, Slaanesh

Skillcannon

1999

So I get to keep most of the 2500 list's combat strength at the expense of the Tzeentch magic. I've been considering downgrading the Lord to a lvl 1 or dropping him entirely but figure I need lvl4 to keep a decent repertoire and cover the loss of Channels. I lose a Plaguebearer and the (rather useful) Champion from the Flamers. I'm considering a 2500 version of this list too.

Thoughts welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:43 am 
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Glad you like your list. Are there any weaknesses / improvements you see for your 2500pts list?

Dropping some magic to take the list down to 2000pts makes sense. Few armies can bring all toys they want at 2000pts. It's much more about making hard choices then 2500pts is. So, while you get to bring fewer things, so do the armies you're likely to face. And while magic in it is definitely weaker then now, you're still packing a lvl4 and a backup lvl1. Which is pretty decent @2000pts.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
The report reads like a classic 'how to deal with a death star with a combined arms list.
I'm humbled. I made some mistakes, like forgetting to dispel Curse of Years but they weren't huge.

:) it's a well deserved compliment. You definitely made some mistakes in the game and were perhaps lucky a few times. And I'm sure there is things you could have done to get a bigger or better results. But, if you're trying to explain to someone what the point of redirectors is, how to deal with a deathstar and what the value is of a combined arms list then it clearly shows in how you approached the battle.

The theory is keep a deathstar busy with fewer points then it costs, deal with the rest, consider if you can take out the deathstar in some way to get a bit win. And that is exactly what you did.

As for playing fast, I get what you mean. My games generally run too long and slow. So, I can imagine that when playing a tournament you take a few shortcuts. Especially in a friendly atmosphere where you trust your opponent not to screw you over.

You left out one last piece of information. Where did you finish in the tournament ranking? :)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
As for playing fast, I get what you mean. My games generally run too long and slow. So, I can imagine that when playing a tournament you take a few shortcuts. Especially in a friendly atmosphere where you trust your opponent not to screw you over.

You left out one last piece of information. Where did you finish in the tournament ranking?

Thanks for reminding me Rod! I finished 4th/10, just missing the (rather modest) podium. As you can imagine, the smallness made for a homely atmosphere. While players were actually trying to win, the emphasis was on enjoying the games. There's not much that can beat playing a good-spirited game against a guy who's made an effort with his army (whatever his painting skill) where both players feel they have a chance to win. I'm naturally a slow player, so do what I can to mitigate that. Defaulting Gifts, taking off redirectors etc help that without hurting massively.

Prince of Spires wrote:
it's a well deserved compliment. You definitely made some mistakes in the game and were perhaps lucky a few times. And I'm sure there is things you could have done to get a bigger or better results. But, if you're trying to explain to someone what the point of redirectors is, how to deal with a deathstar and what the value is of a combined arms list then it clearly shows in how you approached the battle.

The theory is keep a deathstar busy with fewer points then it costs, deal with the rest, consider if you can take out the deathstar in some way to get a bit win. And that is exactly what you did.

Thank you. Hopefully including more photos than previous reports clarifies things. For a non-photographer I'm making extensive use of my phone camera these days!

Prince of Spires wrote:
Dropping some magic to take the list down to 2000pts makes sense. Few armies can bring all toys they want at 2000pts. It's much more about making hard choices then 2500pts is. So, while you get to bring fewer things, so do the armies you're likely to face. And while magic in it is definitely weaker then now, you're still packing a lvl4 and a backup lvl1. Which is pretty decent @2000pts.

Yeah, the list makes sense. I still have misgivings about the Lord but he's necessary here I feel. As you say, the magic is OK, despite the lack of a Dispel Scroll. The problem with dropping the Tzeentch Herald though is that if the DP goes down, that's the whole magic phase gone. TBH I remain suspicious of the Bloodletters but they fit at 2000 re hitting 25% Core. I had the models and am enjoying working with metal again:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69715&start=60

Prince of Spires wrote:
Glad you like your list. Are there any weaknesses / improvements you see for your 2500pts list?

This is proving a challenge. The immediate issue is including the Bloodletters in around 625pts of Core. The first option is to drop the Daemonettes and cut the Plaguebearers to 14. Such a unit is viable but I'm not sure I like the change in tactics it would dictate. Second option is drop the Horrors and cut the Daemonettes to 10. I dislike the hit to magic and have unhappy experience of minimised Daemonettes. Of course I could simply go up to about 700pts in Core but the inefficiency bothers me. There's also the issue of so many vulnerable points in the Keeper of Secrets.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:55 pm 
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2500 List

Keeper of Secrets, Lvl4 Slaanesh, 75pt Gift
BSB, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Khorne, 25pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

18 Plaguebearers, Musician
14 Bloodletters, Swiftness, Musician
10 Horrors, Std, Musician

4 Beasts of Nurgle
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
3 Flamers
5 Furies, Slaanesh
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

2500 on the nose.

By dropping all Core champions and some odds and ends I've actually managed to hit 625 exactly here. I've compromised by including a Khorne Herald, who will default to the ASF sword. He doesn't quite bring the synergies that Slaanesh did but at least he's 40pts cheaper. I also removed the magic level from the BSB, it added little to an already good phase. The net result is that I've found 100pts to bring the Seekers back, I felt a unit short at times this last event. Really, I'd like the Flesh Hounds instead but that's 50-65 pts more I'd have to find. I remain concerned over the Keeper's vulnerability to small arms fire.

Thoughts welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:26 pm 
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Bloodletters WIP

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Looking good, even though they're technically not Bloodletters ;) I'm using Plaguebearers as Chosen and Bestigors as Warriors so I can hardly hold it against you though ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:24 pm 
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Thank you RE.

:)

The inspiration came from the sixth edition Bloodletters which were much more like these than the classic long-headed guys:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69715&start=60

I think the main thing is the opponent is clear on what these units are. In the context of my army these could only be Bloodletters. They're red, they're bestial etc.. I liked your first Chosen Plaguebearer, will we see some more?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Just a couple details on the models and the bases left - I should be posting the entire unit soon ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Sorry for delay in replying RE, I look forward to seeing them!

:)

Champions of Destiny - The Storm Gathers

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=134516

A September return to Northampton looms! I thoroughly enjoyed the first one. This time it's Escalation, successive games at 1500, 2000 and 2500 pts. I presume this means that everything used in the first game has to be used in the second (with some additions). Likewise for the third but the tournament pack should clarify, when it emerges in a couple of weeks.

Each game you also get a free Monster and an allied Core unit of up to 200pts. As it stands I'm likely to borrow a Hellcannon to provide some welcome firepower! The unit will be also be Chaos Dwarfs, Infernal Guard with Fireglaives. A very convenient excuse to get my next army started! It looks like bonus points may be awarded for these allied elements surviving a battle, so tough defensive troops could be a shrewd choice too.

Some thoughts on list-building to follow.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Escalation

So my first job is to write a 1500pt roster that can both stand alone and serve as the basis of larger lists to come. Only it isn't really 1500pts, because it also has 200pts of Chaos Dwarfs and a Hellcannon. This means I start with the guts of a firebase, which I need to bear in mind. I'm assuming these elements don't affect my percentages for now.

I'm inclined to start with Plaguebearers (because they are so steady) and Horrors (because I think I need the magic) for Core. My unit of the latter includes standard and musician, so that's 150pts, right there. 16 Plaguebearers with Champion and Musician are 228pts which reaches the 375pt minimum. I'll bump the unit up to 19 if other elements allow, to reduce it's exposure to Dreaded 13th, as I'm expecting Skaven.

I want my BSB because he makes both the PB's and Beasts even more reliable. I'm tempted to make him a wizard because I could do with a combat buff from Nurgle, as well as the Channel. That would be 245pts. Next on the shopping list is a Lvl2 Herald. Probably on Tzeentch, to maximise the chances of rolling Gateway. At 125pts, he leaves Heroes at 370pts, just under the limit. Conveniently, a naked Keeper of Secrets comes exactly in on the 375pt limit for Lords. He's a level one, possibly on Shadow for Miasma, though if he has to keep the same Lore in later games, Slaanesh could be wise, to make best use of upgrading levels.

That leaves just over 375pts. I'm pretty set on the Beasts for obvious reasons, they are 240. The Furies, at 70pts are pretty vital, so they're in. My three additional Plaguebearers are 39pts. I can add a Champion to my Horrors and give them Lichebone Pennant for 25pts, a few short of 1500 but that's as close as I can get. Therefore:


Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 1 Shadow
BSB, Lvl 1 Nurgle, Regen Locus, 50pt Gift
Herald, Lvl 2 Tzeentch

19 Plaguebearers, Champion, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Lichebone Pennant

4 Beasts
5 Furies, Slaanesh

10 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Eternal Flame, Musician
Hellcannon


In effect, this is around 1900pts. It has the small firebase and the solid fighting troops of Nurgle. It has four Channels, five spells and dispels at +2, probably enough. It has a redirector and a powerful Monster in the Keeper. Seven deployment drops.

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:15 am 
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Looks like a good enough list. But it's going to depend a bit on the escalation rules and what you're planning on bringing for the other lists.

Simply comparing this list what you've brought before is that the 19th plaguebearer could give issues in later lists where adding him to the unit means you're short on his points later on.

The other thing I'm wondering is if the list isn't trying to do too many things. For me, sub 2000 pts list should focus on a few things and do them well. It perhaps increases the risk of running into a bad matchup. But at the same time you'll do better in other matchups. And other armies struggle just as much fitting in everything sub 2000pts.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:53 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The other thing I'm wondering is if the list isn't trying to do too many things. For me, sub 2000 pts list should focus on a few things and do them well. It perhaps increases the risk of running into a bad matchup. But at the same time you'll do better in other matchups. And other armies struggle just as much fitting in everything sub 2000pts.


This is a good point Rod. By including the Keeper from the start I'm really nailing my colours to the mast. Here's an alternative:


Herald, Lvl 2, Metal
Herald, Lvl 2, Metal

15 Plaguebearers, Musician
10 Horrors, FC, Lichebone Pennant

5 Furies, Tzeentch
3 Flamers, Pyrocaster
4 Beasts
3 Fiends
5 Seekers

Skillcannon

10 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Eternal Flame, Musician
Hellcannon

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 Post subject: Re: Segway to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:08 am 
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It's an interesting list. That's a lot of solid drops for a 1500pts (+ reinforcements) list. The shooting with the skillcannon and the hellcannon is nasty if you're facing any single models. Not really any weak parts to pick on. It might be a bit on the slow side, but not more so then your usual demon lists. And the number of drops you have should compensate for that.

Why dual metal on the mages?

Question remains how much you're allowed to change stuff like character equipment when escalating to higher points. And what you would like to end up with as a 2500pts list. At the moment I'm working off the assumption you're aiming for the 2500pts list from your last tourney. But assuming that you are allowed to change stuff around on characters as much as you want and that you are indeed going for that 2500pts list then I think this is a solid army. And actually surprisingly allround, combined arms for only 1900pts. Good shooting, nice combat and some decent magic.

Rod

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